Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

One of the things for me post Way journey that opened up seeing how egotistical the fundamentalist view we had was having a couple of close friends from other religions.  A work colleague who is Muslim I spoke with about beliefs over the course of about 5 years.  I saw him become involved with and give a lot of time and money to a charity placing orphans from another country with families in US.  I saw the good done in his life and knew God had to recognize it.  On the other hand most Christians I knew would never do anything like that.  

Faith is supposed to motivate ourselves toward the best version of ourselves possible.  

Yet what I saw in the Way was other types of motivation.  Fear, lust, selfishness, power.  Thoughts and attitudes which galvanized evil not good.  For many it was not the best but their worst version of themselves emerging.

Another friend I have spoken with over a decade plus about faith is a devout Chan Buddhist raised from birth.  The more I embrace of his faith the more he is drawn to Christ.  I wonder if that’s a Zen energy type of thing.

Anyway where I am at is if someone finds a spark that draws out the best version of themselves I support them pursuing it.  And Christians can more reflect Christ pretty much always for sure.

To strive for betterment is a worthy goal.

Reminds me of Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk and prolific author who connected with Buddhists in Asia. Are you familiar with him?

In his final letter he wrote,

"In my contacts with these new friends, I also feel a consolation in my own faith in Christ and in his dwelling presence. I hope and believe he may be present in the hearts of all of us."

[Rocky]

17 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Reminds me of Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk and prolific author who connected with Buddhists in Asia. Are you familiar with him?

In his final letter he wrote,

"In my contacts with these new friends, I also feel a consolation in my own faith in Christ and in his dwelling presence. I hope and believe he may be present in the hearts of all of us."

Yes! 

[chockfull]

6 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Reminds me of Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk and prolific author who connected with Buddhists in Asia. Are you familiar with him?

In his final letter he wrote,

"In my contacts with these new friends, I also feel a consolation in my own faith in Christ and in his dwelling presence. I hope and believe he may be present in the hearts of all of us."

I have not read Merton.  I’ll look him up.  My Buddhist friend has remarked to a group of us Christians that he felt it was evident that Jesus had reached enlightenment by his words in teachings.  He also had a strong sense of what he said had to be Jesus traveling to the East during part of his life and being instructed in some things.  He said the prayers reflect that.  I told him that between early teen years and late twenties there is no record of Jesus actions so all of that has possibilities.  I also have heard of progressive Christian churches hiring a Buddhist monk to help them with how to pray better.  

I don’t have a strong sense of how this will turn out.  I’m just connecting and moving through it.  

One other thing that came to mind reading some of the responses is that Christian Fundamentalism is a big business, and a lot of the artifacts around it support that big business.  Scrolls, software, archaeology, philosophical writings and commentaries.  I guess if there is a demand for something individuals will dream up ways to produce a supply to meet that demand.

[penworks]

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

One other thing that came to mind reading some of the responses is that Christian Fundamentalism is a big business, and a lot of the artifacts around it support that big business.  Scrolls, software, archaeology, philosophical writings and commentaries.  I guess if there is a demand for something individuals will dream up ways to produce a supply to meet that demand.

Along these lines, for a while on my blog I wrote posts in a series called "Fundamentalist Fridays." Here's one about Christian Nationalism, which has become more front-and-center in this country than when I wrote this post in 2017.

Enjoy!

christian nationalism.pdf

[waysider]

6 minutes ago, penworks said:

Along these lines, for a while on my blog I wrote posts in a series called "Fundamentalist Fridays." Here's one about Christian Nationalism, which has become more front-and-center in this country than when I wrote this post in 2017.

Enjoy!

christian nationalism.pdf 92.72 kB · 1 download

Tread lightly, the ice is thin in spots.

[Twinky]

"a right-wing gospel conflating Christianity and patriotism"

 

US "evangelical Christianity" is nothing like evangelism or Christianity in other countries.  Thank God.

Funny how these evangelical, right-wing Christians are trying to build kingdoms on earth.  Yet Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world...but now is my kingdom not from hence."   (John 18:36)  

How hilarious it would be, to see Jesus addressing Congress or the Senate.  He'd be quickly arrested and tried for treason, or confined on grounds of insanity.  And any number of cases of slander would be brought against him when he called out the "leaders" on their hypocrisy.  (You know how much he annoyed the sanhedrin.)

[Rocky]

From Hector Alavos' book (page 16, btw, he's an actual academic who does legit research on religion and biblical studies and he has an actual THESIS),

Begin quote here:

For our purposes, we can summarize our plea to end biblical studies as we know it with two main premises:

1. Modern biblical scholarship has demonstrated that the Bible is the product of cultures whose values and beliefs about the origin, nature, and purpose of our world are no longer held to be relevant, even by most Christians and Jews.

2. Paradoxically, despite the recognition of such irrelevance, the profession of academic biblical studies still centers on maintaining the illusion of relevance by:
A. A variety of scholarly disciplines whose methods and conclusions are often philosophically flawed (e.g. translation, textual criticism, archaeology, history, and biblical theology).
B. An infrastructure that supports biblical studies (e.g. universities, a media-publishing complex, churches, and professional organizations).

[...]

... enormous archaeological treasures found in the ancient Near East in the last 150 years or so have set the Bible more firmly in its original cultural context. However, it is those very discoveries that show the Bible is irrelevant, insofar as it is part of a world radically dissimilar to ours in its conception of the cosmos, the supernatural, and the human sense of morality. In fact, in a 1975 report published by the American Academ of Religion, one scholar frankly admitted that "indeed, one of the enduring contributions of biblical studies in this century has been the discovery of the strangeness of the thought-forms of the biblical literature of the 'western' tradition to us. In short, scholars of religion themselves, not just secular humanists, admit that the Bible is a product of an ancient and very different culture.

****

Therefore (this is me, Rocky, now) setting aside the extreme imperfections of his character and emotional immaturity, he was kinda sorta onto something with his exploration of Orientalisms.

Even so, he failed majestically in his imagination by not recognizing the significance of the cultural differences people like KC Pillai introduced to him.

 

[Rocky]

This understanding (certainly still incomplete) raises numerous questions about what we've been engaged in since our (as individuals) first encounter with Victor Wierwille's ministry, and likely even since before that moment.

How have Judeo-Christian scriptures had so much influence through more than two millennia?

Beside the clear implication of psycho-social science and anthropological aspects of humanity today I can't help but think a concept Paul related to Timothy has had major influence.

I believe this verse is not necessarily "God-breathed" but had to obviously been something Paul himself had observed for years and had a certain amount of "sunesis" IOW, Paul was able to recognize through observation and putting a bunch of 2+2's together to realize what can be a major motivating factor.

In more recent times, (well, almost 90 years ago anyway) an American novelist wrote “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

To my understanding Upton Sinclair's quip is very much parallel to I Timothy 6:10. Idk how closely Victor Wierwille may have ever consciously thought in these terms, but I can see how his financial ambition inspired him to build an enterprise he envisioned could take "The Word" over the world.

I Timothy 6:10 (NIV) says,

¹⁰ For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

 

[penworks]

On 7/26/2023 at 6:14 AM, Twinky said:

"a right-wing gospel conflating Christianity and patriotism"

 

US "evangelical Christianity" is nothing like evangelism or Christianity in other countries.  Thank God.

 

Along these lines, another great read on the topic is Stephen Prothero's book, American Jesus: How the Son of God Became a National Hero.

From the description:

"Jesus the Black Messiah; Jesus the Jew; Jesus the Hindu sage; Jesus the Haight-Asbury hippie: these Jesuses join the traditional figure of Jesus Christ in American Jesus, which was acclaimed upon publication in hardcover as an altogether fresh exploration of American history--and as the liveliest book about Jesus to appear in English in years."
 

[penworks]

Another survivor testimony, this one from a 2nd gen. Way org. then offshoot survivor:

https://m.soundcloud.com/indoctrinationshow/mark-avoid-w-em-thomas?ref=clipboard&p=i&c=0&si=10E753EC055A4873A9843355FD563C52

 

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, penworks said:

Another survivor testimony, this one from a 2nd gen. Way org. then offshoot survivor:

https://m.soundcloud.com/indoctrinationshow/mark-avoid-w-em-thomas?ref=clipboard&p=i&c=0&si=10E753EC055A4873A9843355FD563C52

 

Thank you, Charlene! That was a quick 1:13:00. Audio quality is excellent. I look forward to episode two.

This kind of testimony is so needed. Em Thomas is very articulate and forthcoming. Damn, this is good, but, damn, it is heartbreaking and disturbing.

I have so many impressions and reactions to this. Maybe later. I'm too angry right now to write a coherent sentence.

Thank you.

 

 

Mmmph. Seriously, mmmph.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, penworks said:

Another survivor testimony, this one from a 2nd gen. Way org. then offshoot survivor:

https://m.soundcloud.com/indoctrinationshow/mark-avoid-w-em-thomas?ref=clipboard&p=i&c=0&si=10E753EC055A4873A9843355FD563C52

 

Sounds like Ms Thomas is probably familiar with GSC. 

[waysider]

Good Stuff!

[Charity]

On 8/12/2023 at 4:16 PM, penworks said:

Another survivor testimony, this one from a 2nd gen. Way org. then offshoot survivor:

https://m.soundcloud.com/indoctrinationshow/mark-avoid-w-em-thomas?ref=clipboard&p=i&c=0&si=10E753EC055A4873A9843355FD563C52

 

Thank you for sharing the website.  It was pretty disturbing to listen to so I can only imagine what it was like for Em to have lived through it all.  I'm happy to hear of how she is doing today.

Living in Canada, we usually greeted one another with a kiss, but I can't remember if doing so on the lips was the norm.  Looking back on how the rod of correction was a taught and followed practice of disciplining children is painful enough, but a child being told he/she must greet "all" older people with a kiss on the lips which then opened a door for being sexual abused is atrocious.

Was this expectation mainly for children of the corps?  Did it stop when twi was told the rod of correction was no longer okay to use on children?  I remember reading another incident where a child was given the rod of correction for not greeting a leader as she was told to do (not sure if a "holy" kiss was involved here or not).  Even after being hit, the child cried and didn't want to "obey" the order.  

It seems the real problem was the embarrassment of the parent for the child's "disobedience" which was more important than what the child was thinking or feeling at the time.  How inhumane!

 

[penworks]

Charity, to answer your question: 

"but a child being told he/she must greet "all" older people with a kiss on the lips which then opened a door for being sexual abused is atrocious.

Was this expectation for children of the corps?"

My answer:

I am Charlene Lamy Edge, author of my cult memoir, Undertow. I was in the 2nd Way Corps, 1971-1973, held at Way HQ in Ohio, run by VPW himself, and I escaped HQ in 1987.

VPW never forced this kind of kiss on me, although after I left The Way, I learned that he and his brother Harry did that to other women, as recounted by Kristen Skedgell in her memoir, Losing The Way.

There was a teaching that referred to a Scripture that said to greet one another with a holy kiss, but in my experience that was a kiss on the cheek.

This kiss on the mouth business was NEVER taught to us back then, nor were we told to force our kids to do it! I do not know who originated this practice.

I have a child who was born in 1975 when I was a Way leader. She was 12 when we escaped HQ in 1987. Thankfully, she never was subjected to that kind of male behavior in The Way, for which I am eternally grateful, but believe me, I am heartbroken over those innocents who were.

I think we know by now here at GSC that Way-promoted practices of all sorts depended on your geographical location in The Way org., who your local leader was, what teachings were circulating (there never was a "quality control" process to monitor in what ways things were taught), the time period during which you were involved in The Way, and your own personal decisions. 

Like any sensible person hearing this story, I am infuriated by the damage done as described by this woman on the podcast. 

As awful as it is to hear it, we need it and others like it, to gain understanding and heal.

[chockfull]

On 8/12/2023 at 2:16 PM, penworks said:

Another survivor testimony, this one from a 2nd gen. Way org. then offshoot survivor:

https://m.soundcloud.com/indoctrinationshow/mark-avoid-w-em-thomas?ref=clipboard&p=i&c=0&si=10E753EC055A4873A9843355FD563C52

 

Another good personal anecdote with experience with TWI.

This one delved into the strange customs and treatment of children.  There was some evidence of abnormal types of shows of affection.

Being raised in TWI and attending all the children’s fellowship and other communal oversight culture aspects can be downright terrorizing to a kid.  The Family Corps was a large commune type living where everyone applied discipline to everyone else’s kids.  This carried out to the practices on the field where they would behave the same way.  I know few to no children raised in this cult who have done anything other than seeking the first exit door available to them.

All of this was driven by the Stanford Prison Experiment type behavior with leaders and followers.  The Corps was a experiment of control like this.  There was communal use of corporate punishment with rovers beating kids.  

The leaders thought of none of these repercussions but doubled down on their spirituality and “God told me” types of answers in the face of legitimate concerns and criticism.

If you were a kid raised in TWI I will pray for you.  Mine got out before their minds matured so just have a little PTSD from treatment as opposed to being hooked by the cults BS logic and trapped for life or until awakening.

[Rocky]

4 hours ago, penworks said:

I think we know by now here at GSC that Way-promoted practices of all sorts depended on your geographical location in The Way org., who your local leader was, what teachings were circulating (there never was a "quality control" process to monitor in what ways things were taught), the time period during which you were involved in The Way, and your own personal decisions. 

This also brings to mind how interpretations of things going on in the broader society. For example, someone somewhere decided microwave oven cooked food had all the live somehow removed from it. 

Consider the adage about how quickly lies can spread... lies, conspiracy theories and the like can travel around the world before the truth even gets out of bed.    

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

I know few to no children raised in this cult who have done anything other than seeking the first exit door available to them.

All of this was driven by the Stanford Prison Experiment type behavior with leaders and followers.  The Corps was a experiment of control like this.  There was communal use of corporate punishment with rovers beating kids.  

The leaders thought of none of these repercussions but doubled down on their spirituality and “God told me” types of answers in the face of legitimate concerns and criticism.

If you were a kid raised in TWI I will pray for you.

The corpse was likely a somewhat unwitting experiment in that kind of control. Especially the Family corpses. But I attribute problems I had (not FC) later to this kind of control I had experienced. I still deal with the ramifications of it in family relationships... More than 35 years after I left the cult. 

[penworks]

One of the best sources I have found on this topic of control is Robert Jay Lifton's little but powerful book:

Losing Reality: On cults, cultism, and the mindset of polititcal and religious zealotry

"Lifton has spent decades exploring psychological extremism. His pioneering concept of the "Eight Deadly Sins" of ideological totalism--originally devised to identify "brainwashing" (or "thought reform") in political movements--has been widely quoted in writings about cults, and embraced by members and former members of religious cults seeking to undertstand their experiences."

When I gave my presentation "A Cult Insider's Story," which was recorded and is on YouTube, I discussed Lifton's work.

The guy wearing the red scarf, introduces me: 

 

[penworks]

Are you writing your cult story? Do you want to learn about memory and the art of writing memoir?

Numerous books, seminars, and podcasts are available on that topic, including one huge favorite of mine by Judith Barrington, Writing the Memoir: A practical guide to the craft, personal challenges, and ethical dilemmas of writing your true stories.

HOWEVER a surprising source that gave me some in-depth understanding abiout memory and writing memories is a book by Bart D. Ehrman about the New Testament:

Jesus Before the Gospels: How the Earliest Christians Remembered, Changed, and Invented Their Stories of the Savior.

A bit from the introduction:

"... there are forty to sixty-five years separating Jesus' death and our earliest accounts of his life, and we need to know what was happening to the memories of Jesus precisely during that time gap. I approach these questions from fields of study that I have never written about before and that many New Testament scholars have simply never explored, including cognitive psychology, cultural anthropology, and sociology. The intriguing research done in these other fields can help us unpack some of the greatest mysteries confronting both scholars of the New Testament and general readers: what can we know about the man Jesus and about how--and why--the memories of Jesus were altered in the years before the Gospels were produced?"

Try it. You might like it.

Attached is the FREE first chapter of Undertow, also available on my website at https://charleneedge.com

 

Cheers!

Hiding-in-Plain-Sight.pdf

Edited August 22, 2023 by penworks

[penworks]

The above post was intended to reach anyone writing their cult story.

Also, here's my new blog about a free Zoom event featuring an escapee from FDLS.

FREE Zoom Event: Lalich Center on Cults and Coersion | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

[penworks]

If you're writing a book or magazine article or a post here at Greasespot Cafe about your Way experiences, here's my latest blog post about my book about writing, which features a timetable showing how and why I wrote my memoir, Undertow.

Posted today on my website at https://charleneedge.com

September Discount: From the Porch to the Page

 by Charlene L. Edge |  posted in: Book Events, My Writing Life |  0

Greetings, subscribers! Happy Labor Day weekend. To celebrate the labor of writing, for the month of September, ON SALE for $15.00, you can get my most recent book, From the Porch to the Page: A Guidebook for the Writing Life. 

$15.00 includes tax and shipping to anywhere in the USA. This offer, unfortunately, is not available to readers in other countries. However, the book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

For ordering details, see below.

Did you know…?

This book includes the behind-the-scenes scoop—references in essays and a timetable in Appendix 1 —about how and why I wrote and published my award-winning memoir, Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International.

This is particularly valuable to readers of Undertow who tell me they are now working on memoirs about their own experiences in The Way International, which is still in business and actively recruiting.

Porch is NOT only for writers

From the book’s cover: Edge’s prose is crisp and to the point, her voice discerning yet collegial, speaking friend to friend, as she shares stories, realizations, and moments of beauty.

• More than 30 essays on the writing life and craft
• Charlene’s short stories and poems illustrating essay topics — some of these were published and won prizes
• Nourishing insights from well-known authors and poets
• Recommended books for writing memoir, poetry, fiction, and travel stories

Beginning with “Readers Become Writers” and ending with “If You Want to Keep Writing,” Edge’s encouraging and gentle book highlights the vistas, detours, and delights on the writing path, along with truths we can all apply to poetry, prose, and life.

To order your personalized, signed copy of From the Porch to the Page

1. Email me at crledge@earthlink.net
2. In the Subject line, write PORCH.
3. I’ll reply with specific instructions.
4. Offer ends: September 30, 2023

Thanks for reading!

Your writer on the wing,

Charlene

YouTube presentation - book launch for From the Porch to the Page. 

 

Website: https://charleneedge.com

YouTube presentation on Undertow: CHARLENE L. EDGE –Author “A Cult Insider’s Story” – YouTube

Edited September 1, 2023 by penworks

[penworks]

In Undertow, there's a person named Patrick Ryan who provided a blurb in one of the first pages of the book. I met him through the International Cultic Studies Association. He had a sister who'd been in The Way, so he had a personal interest in my story. For years, he's been working as an exit counselor with another person, Joseph Kelly. They compile articles about cults and send a daily newsletter called Cult News 101.

Here's a bit about him and a link to an interview:

Cult Stories: An Interview With Cult News 101 Founder Patrick Ryan

"There’s a small but dedicated social media community that focuses on the world of cults and if you start following accounts, the algorithms at sites like Twitter and Instagram will eventually funnel you towards Cult News 101, which aggregates stories from newspapers across the globe.

When we first found the consistently updated trove of articles, I was curious who was aggregating all the content. Was this a true crime rubbernecker? An A.I. bot programmed to feed AP dispatches? Or was this the work of someone with a vested interest in spreading the news from Cultland? A few exploratory clicks around the web proved that the accounts and the site that hosts the insanely large archive of backdated stories were the work of two exit councilors: modern cult deprogrammers Patrick Ryan and Joseph Kelly, who both have experience on the inside of coercive organizations themselves."

" ... I finished the interview by asking Patrick Ryan why it’s important to tell cult stories. I pointed out that I felt that these stories illustrate that coercive control has proven to be a feature of humanity, which he agreed with.

'It’s a bug, it's a feature, and it's the whole history of mankind. It's nothing new. You know, the history of humanity is oppression of people, of a certain class with money and wealth or swords and spears oppressing other people, making them slaves either physically or mentally. It's the history of mankind.'"

Edited September 6, 2023 by penworks

[Rocky]

5 hours ago, penworks said:

'It’s a bug, it's a feature, and it's the whole history of [hu]mankind. It's nothing new. You know, the history of humanity is oppression of people, of a certain class with money and wealth or swords and spears oppressing other people, making them slaves either physically or mentally. It's the history of mankind.'"

Seems like important justification to me. To all readers on GSC, TELL YOUR STORY.

[Nathan_Jr]

Mmmmph

 

So many supernatural powers for sale, so many “teachings” available, so little time.

 

[penworks]

Again today another former follower of TWI contacted me through my website. A woman. A woman whose story of abuse by Way leaders broke my heart. She is one of numerous people, men and women, who have sent me similar messages since Undertow was published nearly seven (7) years ago.

I carry these stories are in my heart, and I honor those people's courage to keep on living despite grave wounds. If you are reading this and are one of these people whose story I now know in part, be assured that I admire you and cheer you on in your journey of healing.

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by penworks