Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[waysider]

28 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

“…all the caring of people seemed to be conditionally available only to those who stayed loyal to the group.”

We sure do love ya.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

32 minutes ago, waysider said:

We sure do love ya.

 

Gross. Talk is cheap.

I heard this All. The. Time. from my fellowship commander and his wife, the commandress, and as recently as three years ago. They left in 1986.

The only books in their house are those “written” by vic and Bullinger, TWI-approved lexicons and interlinears, some KJVs, and a few cookbooks. They are master absorbers of the collaterals and fervent beleeevers in 1942 as the greatest year in the history of the world for this our day in time.

“Dr. said…” is the only phrase I heard more frequently. It ALL goes back to victor paul wierwille.

All. Of. It.

[WordWolf]

I'm THREE TIMES the fake doctor that vpw was!   They should consider my words 3x as much as his!

(I have 3 unaccredited doctorates, making me 3x a fake doctor, vpw only has 1 unaccredited/fake.)

I've got one in "Theology", one in "Bible Truths", and one in "Putting My Posts in Boldface to Make them Easier to Read."

 

Or, if mine don't count, we return to "But he wasn't a REAL doctor...."

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

vpw only has HAD 1 unaccredited/fake.

[penworks]

15 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Penworks, can you explain wht the relationship between the way international and local towns such as New Knoxville? I always caught bits and pieces of various points of contention, both from the size of the ROA and basic pettiness. Don't know how much you had to deal with back in the day. When I came to HQ in 1999 we were told basically, in so many words, not to interact with locals. In retrospect I wonder what that was all about? Wierwille's reputation? anywho. Thanks for considering.

Oldskool, it was complicated. Back in 1971 when I was in summer school at HQ, lots of us went to Adolf's Restaurant on the main drag in N.K. for beer or a sandwich. Adolf waited on us himself and we developed a nice rapor. In a newspaper article in about 1974 or 75 that mainly featured a ROA event, Adolph was interviewed and said some nice things about Way believers. I have that article somewhere buried in a box of stuff I referred to when writing Undertow. Too lazy at the moment to dig it out...

Of course, I'm sure Adolph didnt mind the influx of money coming in from Way folks, escpecially during the first ROA in 1971. Later, while in the Corps 1971-1973, we continued to pour our tiny bit of allowance money (we got $20 a month for notepaper, shampoo, etc.) into eating there once in a while, although VPW preferred we "stay on grounds" with "the household of believers." So he started cooking hamburgers on a grill outside his house for us, taking away our excuse for going into town. Anything to keep us from interacting with outsiders who might ask too many questions, although we were supposed to "witness" to them and bring them to Sunday night services. 

At least once, some rowdies from town raced down Wierwille Rd. in a car and shot a hole in the Welcome sign down at the corner of Highway 29 and Wierwille Rd. It's the odd, round Way sign featured on the cover of The Cult That Snapped by Karl Kahler. So that didn't help relations with the town.

But neither did VPW help keep things friendly, because he railed against church ministers there. 

Flash forward to 1984-1987 when I worked at HQ. Many of us on staff had kids in the public school in N.K., and ironically, some of the town kids were nicer to my daughter, for instance, than Way kids because Way kids put pressure on her to "witness" to the townies and she felt uncomfortable with that. I learned this from her AFTER we escaped.

Oh, one more thing. Before the Executive Office Building was built in 1973 or maybe late 1972, while in the Corps, we had to do our laundry off grounds. The closest laundromat was in St. Mary's, so we "interacted" with locals there, but only to "witness to them," at least that was my experience. Not sure what else may have been going on with locals over the years ...

That's all that comes to mind, just now.

 

[OldSkool]

2 hours ago, penworks said:

That's all that comes to mind, just now

Thanks for answering in detail, I appreciate your perspective for certain....It makes me wonder if the locals knew his reputation as a sexual predator and alcoholic, amongst other things and that was the reason for this great divide between the way international and local communities back when wierwille walked the earth....When I left in 2008 the way international had developed some pretty solid relationships amongst the community, of course this all centered around commerce...rarely did any townies come to the auditorium except for the Harvest Concerts that happened in November and we would invite folks in to enjoy the concert. Some town folks would come see what the fuss was all about and it wasnt that bad of a turnout considering the concerts didnt change much from year to year. 

So from my perspective, the relationships were strained more so when wierwille and martindale were running the show. Rosalie had us work on public relations locally, not to actually help anyone from the local area, but to lose the reputation of an isolated cult compound.....which it is...anywho...Thanks again!!!

[chockfull]

4 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Thanks for answering in detail, I appreciate your perspective for certain....It makes me wonder if the locals knew his reputation as a sexual predator and alcoholic, amongst other things and that was the reason for this great divide between the way international and local communities back when wierwille walked the earth....When I left in 2008 the way international had developed some pretty solid relationships amongst the community, of course this all centered around commerce...rarely did any townies come to the auditorium except for the Harvest Concerts that happened in November and we would invite folks in to enjoy the concert. Some town folks would come see what the fuss was all about and it wasnt that bad of a turnout considering the concerts didnt change much from year to year. 

So from my perspective, the relationships were strained more so when wierwille and martindale were running the show. Rosalie had us work on public relations locally, not to actually help anyone from the local area, but to lose the reputation of an isolated cult compound.....which it is...anywho...Thanks again!!!

One of the things not often mentioned when discussing TWI local relations with people in surrounding areas is the children who were dragged along while their parents were fulfilling their “spiritual dream” of “serving at HQ”.  

Kids in schools are bullied incessantly.  Small town communities and cult compounds tend to produce that effect.  Smaller towns education is different and there are less resources for specializing- sports, trades, scholarships.  Much of the reaction to this is to rebel and turn to substance abuse.

Kids face pressures due to parents positions and the Pharisee hierarchy.  Directors kids probably are the most lonely of any.

This isn’t right.  Those kids deserve their own lives and unrestricted future.  Parents social climbing and org climbing lusts should not compromise this.  But parents are brainwashed so they trade their kids futures for their own status and advancement in the cult hierarchy.

Working PR is no more than a facade covering these problems.  The issue stems from using people and trading them like cattle for the leaders own lusts building fiefdoms and hierarchies.

[chockfull]

2 hours ago, penworks said:

Oldskool, it was complicated. Back in 1971 when I was in summer school at HQ, lots of us went to Adolf's Restaurant on the main drag in N.K. for beer or a sandwich. Adolf waited on us himself and we developed a nice rapor. In a newspaper article in about 1974 or 75 that mainly featured a ROA event, Adolph was interviewed and said some nice things about Way believers. I have that article somewhere buried in a box of stuff I referred to when writing Undertow. Too lazy at the moment to dig it out...

Of course, I'm sure Adolph didnt mind the influx of money coming in from Way folks, escpecially during the first ROA in 1971. Later, while in the Corps 1971-1973, we continued to pour our tiny bit of allowance money (we got $20 a month for notepaper, shampoo, etc.) into eating there once in a while, although VPW preferred we "stay on grounds" with "the household of believers." So he started cooking hamburgers on a grill outside his house for us, taking away our excuse for going into town. Anything to keep us from interacting with outsiders who might ask too many questions, although we were supposed to "witness" to them and bring them to Sunday night services. 

At least once, some rowdies from town raced down Wierwille Rd. in a car and shot a hole in the Welcome sign down at the corner of Highway 29 and Wierwille Rd. It's the odd, round Way sign featured on the cover of The Cult That Snapped by Karl Kahler. So that didn't help relations with the town.

But neither did VPW help keep things friendly, because he railed against church ministers there. 

Flash forward to 1984-1987 when I worked at HQ. Many of us on staff had kids in the public school in N.K., and ironically, some of the town kids were nicer to my daughter, for instance, than Way kids because Way kids put pressure on her to "witness" to the townies and she felt uncomfortable with that. I learned this from her AFTER we escaped.

Oh, one more thing. Before the Executive Office Building was built in 1973 or maybe late 1972, while in the Corps, we had to do our laundry off grounds. The closest laundromat was in St. Mary's, so we "interacted" with locals there, but only to "witness to them," at least that was my experience. Not sure what else may have been going on with locals over the years ...

That's all that comes to mind, just now.

 

Wow.  Stirs up some memories.  Adolph’s!  We loved that place.  My FIL loved Adolph and we had to go there whenever he was in town.

I remember Dee Fischbaum (sp) the mayor of New Knoxville was related to Mrs VPW somehow - in laws maybe.  So there was also that connection.

Townies always were hyper sensitive to “the compound” as in “you live on the compound?”

Howard would always be bad mouthing most of the neighbors around HQ from recollections.

A lot of the TWI local members have generational roots in the local area though so I think the general attitude was tolerance toward TWI.  Adolph probably could care less - it was a revenue source for that family lol.

[chockfull]

15 hours ago, waysider said:

We sure do love ya.

 

A loaded phrase.  “Love” an intimate and close expression.

”ya” a generic slang phrase.

Followers blend the intimate with the generic and can turn it on and off with a switch.  They do the same with others lives.  

[OldSkool]

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

One of the things not often mentioned when discussing TWI local relations with people in surrounding areas is the children who were dragged along while their parents were fulfilling their “spiritual dream” of “serving at HQ”.  

Kids in schools are bullied incessantly.  Small town communities and cult compounds tend to produce that effect.  Smaller towns education is different and there are less resources for specializing- sports, trades, scholarships.  Much of the reaction to this is to rebel and turn to substance abuse.

Kids face pressures due to parents positions and the Pharisee hierarchy.  Directors kids probably are the most lonely of any.

This isn’t right.  Those kids deserve their own lives and unrestricted future.  Parents social climbing and org climbing lusts should not compromise this.  But parents are brainwashed so they trade their kids futures for their own status and advancement in the cult hierarchy.

Working PR is no more than a facade covering these problems.  The issue stems from using people and trading them like cattle for the leaders own lusts building fiefdoms and hierarchies.

Thats some really good perspective and it jarred my memory...back in 1999 on my apprentice year of my corps training I was of course at HQ. A close friend of mine had kids and lived in the unit park. My friend's daughter was in high school at the time and she filled me in quite a few things I was naive about. Mainly how rampant drugs and alcohol was amongst the staff kids and how promiscous teenaged staff kids tended to be amongst themselves really. Knowing teenagers Im sure this is still an issue, I mean really it just refutes the way internationals's own stupid boundaries that they are somehow set apart from the "world". Anywho...staff kids have it tough and you are correct, the directors kids are twice cursed. 

[WordWolf]

12 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Thanks for answering in detail, I appreciate your perspective for certain....It makes me wonder if the locals knew his reputation as a sexual predator and alcoholic, amongst other things and that was the reason for this great divide between the way international and local communities back when wierwille walked the earth....When I left in 2008 the way international had developed some pretty solid relationships amongst the community, of course this all centered around commerce...rarely did any townies come to the auditorium except for the Harvest Concerts that happened in November and we would invite folks in to enjoy the concert. Some town folks would come see what the fuss was all about and it wasnt that bad of a turnout considering the concerts didnt change much from year to year. 

So from my perspective, the relationships were strained more so when wierwille and martindale were running the show. Rosalie had us work on public relations locally, not to actually help anyone from the local area, but to lose the reputation of an isolated cult compound.....which it is...anywho...Thanks again!!!

Certainly, some of the locals knew vpw's reputation growing up- he was a showoff, a braggart, and something of a bully.   He used to zoom his motorcycle around, trying to get attention,  All indications are that his own dad had a reputation for being mean and something of a bully as well (big surprise there, right?)    When vpw said he wanted to go into ministry, NOBODY thought it was a good idea, starting with his Dad, and the locals certainly didn't think he had the right character for the job, so they didn't take him very seriously.   Small wonder his first church was such a drive away from where he grew up (when they decided to move things back to the farm, he lost some of his church because it was too far to travel regularly for services.)    During the twi era, vpw didn't exactly work hard making friends of the locals, either. When one neighbor complained of a racket, vpw told the noisemakers to make MORE noise, not less. I doubt that was an isolated incident.

[OldSkool]

6 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Certainly, some of the locals knew vpw's reputation growing up- he was a showoff, a braggart, and something of a bully.   He used to zoom his motorcycle around, trying to get attention,  All indications are that his own dad had a reputation for being mean and something of a bully as well (big surprise there, right?)    When vpw said he wanted to go into ministry, NOBODY thought it was a good idea, starting with his Dad, and the locals certainly didn't think he had the right character for the job, so they didn't take him very seriously.   Small wonder his first church was such a drive away from where he grew up (when they decided to move things back to the farm, he lost some of his church because it was too far to travel regularly for services.)    During the twi era, vpw didn't exactly work hard making friends of the locals, either. When one neighbor complained of a racket, vpw told the noisemakers to make MORE noise, not less. I doubt that was an isolated incident.

In retrospect all of the warning signs were there from the beginning regarding VPW's predatorial and sordid nature.

[Rocky]

On 7/16/2023 at 8:05 AM, OldSkool said:

Thanks for answering in detail, I appreciate your perspective for certain....It makes me wonder if the locals knew his reputation as a sexual predator and alcoholic, amongst other things and that was the reason for this great divide between the way international and local communities back when wierwille walked the earth....When I left in 2008 the way international had developed some pretty solid relationships amongst the community, of course this all centered around commerce...rarely did any townies come to the auditorium except for the Harvest Concerts that happened in November and we would invite folks in to enjoy the concert. Some town folks would come see what the fuss was all about and it wasnt that bad of a turnout considering the concerts didnt change much from year to year. 

So from my perspective, the relationships were strained more so when wierwille and martindale were running the show. Rosalie had us work on public relations locally, not to actually help anyone from the local area, but to lose the reputation of an isolated cult compound.....which it is...anywho...Thanks again!!!

[Rocky]

On 7/17/2023 at 3:36 AM, OldSkool said:

In retrospect all of the warning signs were there from the beginning regarding VPW's predatorial and sordid nature.

Truth!

[Logicisgreatstuff]

On 7/15/2023 at 8:22 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

TWI-approved lexicons and interlinears

I recently heard something to this effect:

Whenever someone mentions Strong's Concordance, it strongly suggests they don't understand Greek or Hebrew.

Update No shade to amateur or professional students of texts who use this resource for legitimate purposes! This comment was in reference to the (many) people on the internet who use it to misinform their audiences for political or other reasons.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Logicisgreatstuff

[OldSkool]

12 hours ago, Logicisgreatstuff said:

I recently heard something to this effect:

Whenever someone mentions Strong's Concordance, it strongly suggests they don't understand Greek or Hebrew.

Update No shade to amateur or professional students of texts who use this resource for legitimate purposes! This comment was in reference to the (many) people on the internet who use it to misinform their audiences for political or other reasons.

Definately a relevant point. Folks in TWI, and I was no exception, love cherry picking definitions from these resources to suit their narrative. 

[waysider]

26 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Definitely a relevant point. Folks in TWI, and I was no exception, love cherry picking definitions from these resources to suit their narrative.

This is why "word studies" can be the bane of understanding. You can't simply substitute one word for another like deciphering a code. It's why you sometimes find product instructions that have been translated with laughably disastrous results. To further complicate the matter, spoken languages often differ from written languages, sometimes in profound ways that can only be understood in light of cultural nuances.

I think, in some ways, what we did with these study aids is a bit like what people do today when they use the internet to self-diagnose a medical condition...sometimes correctly, often times not.

Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools.... "Epitaph" (Peter Sinfield)

[penworks]

Speaking of cherry picking definitions, what would happen if folks just quit doing "word studies" and let words sit in their own context where you can see how they are used? For those seriously interested in a radical change regarding "biblical studies," one enlightening book is The End of Biblical Studies by Victor Avalos. Give it a try. It shows how Bible companies keep the cycle going, and much more.

Edited July 20, 2023 by penworks

[waysider]

16 minutes ago, penworks said:

Speaking of cherry picking definitions, what would happen if folks just quit doing "word studies" and let words sit in their own context where you can see how they are used? For those seriously interested in a radical change regarding "biblical studies," one enlightening book is The End of Biblical Studies by Victor Avalos. Give it a try. It shows how Bible companies keep the cycle going, and much more.

Description:

"In this radical critique of his own academic specialty, biblical scholar Hector Avalos calls for an end to biblical studies. He outlines two main arguments for this surprising conclusion. First, academic biblical scholarship has clearly succeeded in showing that the ancient civilization that produced the Bible held beliefs about the origin, nature, and purpose of the world and humanity that are fundamentally opposed to the views of modern society. The Bible is thus largely irrelevant to the needs and concerns of contemporary human beings. Second, Avalos criticizes his colleagues for applying a variety of flawed and specious techniques aimed at maintaining the illusion that the Bible is still relevant in today's world. In effect, he accuses his profession of being more concerned about its self-preservation than about giving an honest account of its own findings to the general public and faith communities. In a controversial conclusion, Avalos argues that our world is best served by leaving the Bible as a relic of an ancient civilization instead of the "living" document most religionist scholars believe it should be. He urges his colleagues to concentrate on educating the broader society to recognize the irrelevance and even violent effects of the Bible in modern life."

[Rocky]

9 hours ago, waysider said:

Avalos criticizes his colleagues for applying a variety of flawed and specious techniques aimed at maintaining the illusion that the Bible is still relevant in today's world.

 

9 hours ago, waysider said:

In effect, he accuses his profession of being more concerned about its self-preservation than about giving an honest account of its own findings to the general public and faith communities.

9 hours ago, waysider said:

First, academic biblical scholarship has clearly succeeded in showing that the ancient civilization that produced the Bible held beliefs about the origin, nature, and purpose of the world and humanity that are fundamentally opposed to the views of modern society.

 

9 hours ago, waysider said:

Avalos argues that our world is best served by leaving the Bible as a relic of an ancient civilization instead of the "living" document most religionist scholars believe it should be.

 

I personally would argue similar but somewhat differently, that the Bible is reasonable to consider in the context of cultural anthropology.

Anthropology is the study of the human as at once an individual, a product of society, and a maker of history and culture. It’s the nature of the human condition to live within structures of symbol, belief, and power of our own fashioning: religion, art, gender, war, ecosystems, race relations, embodiment, kinship, science, colonialism, language, nations and states, play, subsistence strategies, mass media, illness, pain, and pleasure. In a word, culture. 

[Rocky]

9 hours ago, penworks said:

For those seriously interested in a radical change regarding "biblical studies," one enlightening book is The End of Biblical Studies by Victor Avalos. Give it a try. It shows how Bible companies keep the cycle going, and much more.

Avalos' book sounds VERY intriguing.

Unfortunately, I cannot find this title in either of the public libraries I regularly borrow from and Amazon sells it for (hardcover) $29 and (kindle) $31.

Do you know where I might find it for less? 

[Rocky]

Goodreads dot com says, about Avalos:

Since his arrival at Iowa State, Avalos has become an internationally-recognized critic of Intelligent Design creationism, and he is often linked with Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez, the advocate of Intelligent Design who was denied tenure at Iowa State University in 2007. Avalos co-authored a statement against Intelligent Design in 2005, which was eventually signed by over 130 faculty members at Iowa State University. That faculty statement became a model for other statements at the University of Northern Iowa and at the University of Iowa. Gonzalez and Avalos are both featured in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (2008). Which movie is available (for no charge) on YouTube. It's an hour and 39 minutes. But it is political on its face.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Rocky

[penworks]

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Avalos' book sounds VERY intriguing.

Unfortunately, I cannot find this title in either of the public libraries I regularly borrow from and Amazon sells it for (hardcover) $29 and (kindle) $31.

Do you know where I might find it for less? 

Maybe used bookstores have it. I checked Thriftbooks but it's temporarily out.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-end-of-biblical-studies_hector-avalos/1416702/?resultid=8e764add-041d-40c4-a0e5-ba8d9d9e1ed3#edition=5687681

[Rocky]

55 minutes ago, penworks said:

Maybe used bookstores have it. I checked Thriftbooks but it's temporarily out.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-end-of-biblical-studies_hector-avalos/1416702/?resultid=8e764add-041d-40c4-a0e5-ba8d9d9e1ed3#edition=5687681

Checking now on Amazon and hardback is now up to $57 (used). But... I did receive your email. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Rocky

[Mike]

13 hours ago, waysider said:

Description:  ...  "In this radical critique of his own academic specialty, biblical scholar Hector Avalos calls for an end to biblical studies. He outlines two main arguments for this surprising conclusion. First, academic biblical scholarship has clearly succeeded in showing that the ancient civilization that produced the Bible held beliefs about the origin, nature, and purpose of the world and humanity that are ... "

 

Yes, the VAST MAJORITY of the ancient peoples that produced the prophets of God, were told by those same prophets that "their beliefs about the origin, nature, and purpose of the world and humanity ..." were all screwed up, and that they needed to come back to the minority point of view, which is God's Truth.