Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Nathan_Jr]

20 hours ago, waysider said:

This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.

This. 

[Bolshevik]

52 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Gaslighting is violence. Sanity is leveraged. 

gaslighting is subjective.   The other person doesn't literally hold your sanity.  I think a word missing earlier was subjective.  If you feel they hold your sanity, why is that?  That looks like power given freely to another.

emotions are also subjective.  followed by a physiological response.  followed by a behavior

 

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

gaslighting is subjective.   The other person doesn't literally hold your sanity.  I think a word missing earlier was subjective.  If you feel they hold your sanity, why is that?  That looks like power given freely to another.

emotions are also subjective.  followed by a physiological response.  followed by a behavior

 

The subjectivity of gaslighting doesn’t make it any less real.

One’s perception of reality becomes distorted over time. The manipulation is subtle, incremental, imperceptible. The victim or target or (choose a word) does not actively participate in the way you seem to suggest.

The manipulated cannot or does not see he is participating in being manipulated. Or, if he does see it, he has been manipulated not to trust what he sees. That’s why it’s called manipulation. And it is psychologically violent abuse.

The subjective perception of others choosing to blame the victim or target or (choose a word) compounds and perpetuates this abuse. This victim blaming is unintentional gaslighting by the (choose a word) blamer.

But when one finally wakes up to what is going on (see Waysider’s post), one can freely take back one’s lost sanity. One can break out of the psychological prison.

We do choose our behavioral responses to emotions. The manipulated don’t realize they are making these choices. When the veil is lifted, when we are awakened by the lightning strike, we start to see this, and we start to change our choices and behavior.

Sanity is lost, destroyed. Not leveraged - correction.

[chockfull]

4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

I don't recall personally attacking her life on this thread.  

I'm pointing at a pattern of behavior among many people, which she highlighted well.  I brought posts back to show you.  You are appearing to be creating a diversion.

Using "empathy" as means to shut down thinking.

 

 

And PS.

I hate The Way International more than you are capable of.

 

 

 

The post where you said she sounded completely helpless and something about VPW and a 6 year old having the same control is something you can scroll back and review if you don’t recall.

Your lack of memory seems to be the derailment here.

You’re probably right on the hate I don’t have very much capacity or interest in hating TWI any more.  I still call them out though so others avoid their snare and because telling the truth is freeing.

[Bolshevik]

52 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

The subjectivity of gaslighting doesn’t make it any less real.

One’s perception of reality becomes distorted over time. The manipulation is subtle, incremental, imperceptible. The victim or target or (choose a word) does not actively participate in the way you seem to suggest.

The manipulated cannot or does not see he is participating in being manipulated. Or, if he does see it, he has been manipulated not to trust what he sees. That’s why it’s called manipulation. And it is psychologically violent abuse.

The subjective perception of others choosing to blame the victim or target or (choose a word) compounds and perpetuates this abuse. This victim blaming is unintentional gaslighting by the (choose a word) blamer.

But when one finally wakes up to what is going on (see Waysider’s post), one can freely take back one’s lost sanity. One can break out of the psychological prison.

We do choose our behavioral responses to emotions. The manipulated don’t realize they are making these choices. When the veil is lifted, when we are awakened by the lightning strike, we start to see this, and we start to change our choices and behavior.

Sanity is lost, destroyed. Not leveraged - correction.

 

I hear you saying The Way International is my fault.

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

 

I hear you saying The Way International is my fault.

 

 

Wow. I did not say that at all.

[Bolshevik]

Just now, chockfull said:

The post where you said she sounded completely helpless and something about VPW and a 6 year old having the same control is something you can scroll back and review if you don’t recall.

Your lack of memory seems to be the derailment here.

You’re probably right on the hate I don’t have very much capacity or interest in hating TWI any more.  I still call them out though so others avoid their snare and because telling the truth is freeing.

No I remember that.

VPW is sometimes thought of as an NPD, NPDs are stunted in development, like a six year old, or younger.  Absolutely the mother-child dynamic comes into play here.

She did sound helpless.

Why is that not an accurate description?  I was being honest.

 

[Bolshevik]

Just now, Nathan_Jr said:

Wow. I did not say that at all.

See, my parents and their countless friends in The Way are the victims.

For me to say they are all responsible for say, swinging a spoon for no reason, would make me a vicitm-blamer.

See the problem?

[chockfull]

24 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

See, my parents and their countless friends in The Way are the victims.

For me to say they are all responsible for say, swinging a spoon for no reason, would make me a vicitm-blamer.

See the problem?

You’re using Stockholm syndrome to defend all the abused who grew up and became abusers?

[chockfull]

29 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

No I remember that.

VPW is sometimes thought of as an NPD, NPDs are stunted in development, like a six year old, or younger.  Absolutely the mother-child dynamic comes into play here.

She did sound helpless.

Why is that not an accurate description?  I was being honest.

 

So connect the dots?

VPW -> NPD -> sometimes stunted -> six year old -> mother-child dynamic -> helplessness????

Sure that’s so obvious I don’t see how I missed the connection between all those things 

[Bolshevik]

2 minutes ago, chockfull said:

You’re using Stockholm syndrome to defend all the abused who grew up and became abusers?

No, I said at some point those who've been gaslit need to take responsibility.  
I keep pointing at the fact that gaslighting requires more factors to be present than simply a "predator" and a "victim".  Something is drawing the "victim" in.  The "predator" doesn't even need to understand what that is.  But it seems the narrative that VPW had superpowers, maybe he did indeed take down the USSR.

[Bolshevik]

2 minutes ago, chockfull said:

So connect the dots?

VPW -> NPD -> sometimes stunted -> six year old -> mother-child dynamic -> helplessness????

Sure that’s so obvious I don’t see how I missed the connection between all those things 

When I read the writers text, reposted several times . . . 

- . . . ohh are you gaslighting again?

[Twinky]

Does this thread (or part of it) need to be removed to Soap Opera?

[chockfull]

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

When I read the writers text, reposted several times . . . 

- . . . ohh are you gaslighting again?

 No just documenting the logic hops from start to destination.  In case there are others who can’t hop that fast including myself.

[Bolshevik]

On 7/3/2023 at 7:37 AM, penworks said:

Thanks, Chockful. I'm glad to share that interview here. One of my favorite questions from Prof. Moss and my answer:

MM: In the last chapter, “Turning the Tide,” you write about the denial of feelings that had become so prevalent in The Way’s teachings. Could you please elaborate on that aspect?

CLE: One of Wierwille’s pet phrases was “Feelings come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever.” What he meant was that we were not to trust our feelings because they change all the time. And because they change, Wierwille told us they were unreliable sources for truth about ourselves. When our feelings contradicted Wierwille, we were trained to reject those feelings. One important example of this from my own life is in Undertow: Even when my gut feelings told me that the man I married had betrayed me and was not good for me, I was supposed to reconcile with him because the Bible said to forgive.

 

1 minute ago, chockfull said:

 No just documenting the logic hops from start to destination.  In case there are others who can’t hop that fast including myself.

See . . . she even addressed you! lol

Wierwillle said --->  Feelings

Wierwille said ---> Feelings

Wierwille said ---> Feelings

 

There's a clear attachment to Wierwille.  Most people would have just ignored him.  I've heard about this my entire life.  I don't know what anyone saw in him.  But there was clearly an attachment.

[Nathan_Jr]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

See, my parents and their countless friends in The Way are the victims.

For me to say they are all responsible for say, swinging a spoon for no reason, would make me a vicitm-blamer.

See the problem?

This would fit well in the determinism free will thread.

 

Blame them for swinging the spoon. You would be a spoon swinger blamer. They made that choice and have yet to figure it out. They can wake up and choose to stop swinging spoons just like Charlene and Waysider did.

I have never suggested anyone is absolved of responsibility. It is complicated. The victim participates. The victim must wake up and make a move. The victim owns his choice to stay or go. The victim shall be responsible for his actions.

The victim need not perpetuate the cycle of abuse. You were a victim of this abuse. Do you hit your own son with a spoon? 

The narc is the first victim. The abuser is the abused. She was a child when it started. You’ve accurately pointed this out. But that does not mean the narc is without blame or responsibility. It just explains why or how. It’s something to be understood. It’s not a pass.

And she knows exactly what she is doing. She knows just the right candidate to target. She has no self awareness, but she has awareness of others. She hates goodness. It is the opposite of how she sees herself. She is committed to the destruction of that person she had no chance to become.

The abuser and the abused are both responsible. But the abuser will not own responsibility, so it’s up to the abused to make a choice, act and end the cycle. 

How and why does anyone find themselves in this kind of relationship? You are asking that, right? It’s complicated, but it does have something to do with emotional and psychological vulnerability to being seduced into codependency. Even stupidity and a willingness to beleeeve play parts. You’ve asked, which is more important, reason or emotion? My answer is yes.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Glove

[So_crates]

On 7/3/2023 at 12:36 PM, Mike said:

I chalk it up to just another way he was telling us that God was directly teaching him on how to fix the broken doctrine of churchianity

I would think that if God would teach Saint Vic anything, the first thing he would teach Saint Vic was to keep his pants zipped.

Just as I would think if God ever audibly spoke to Saint Vic God's first words would always be, "What are you doing to my daughters?"

[Nathan_Jr]

Mein Kamf was mentioned.

That reminds me of the story of those boys in southern Mississippi who learned of the atrocities of the Nazi party in the 1930s and 1940s. These good ol boys of southern Mississippi learned that Nazis were German and the German Nazi leader was a fellow named Adolf.

These good ol boys learned all this on the internet, mostly through this one chat forum run by Jews who were survivors of Adolf’s Nazi atrocities so long ago,

These good ol boys were motivated by a righteous sensibility to execute some cosmic justice, so they drove to New Orleans to target and beat up everyone they could find of German descent, including the children.

Now, one must remember where these boys were coming from. They weren’t the sharpest hammers in the bag. All Nazis might be German, but not all Germans are Nazis. That was an unimaginable concept for these boys from Mississippi.

All told, 183 innocent German-American New Orleanians were assaulted and battered during a rampage that lasted six months.

I’m happy to report, justice was meted out with a precision and swiftness never seen by the historically corrupt courts of Louisiana. A jury of their peers convicted and sentenced those Jews for operating that internet message board. They were ordered pay $217M in compensatory and punitive damages and serve 15 years supervised probation. 

Halleluja!

And some say justice for all is a dead dream in America. Some just aren’t paying attention.

 

 

mmmph

Edited July 6, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[chockfull]

15 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

 

See . . . she even addressed you! lol

Wierwillle said --->  Feelings

Wierwille said ---> Feelings

Wierwille said ---> Feelings

 

There's a clear attachment to Wierwille.  Most people would have just ignored him.  I've heard about this my entire life.  I don't know what anyone saw in him.  But there was clearly an attachment.

All I see is penworks sharing about working through teachings of VPW that contradicted her gut.  And how VPW taught people to ignore their gut or instincts because the “word” he taught was more reliable than your instincts.  That is a form of brainwashing.

Most everyone who sat through PFAL more than 10 times probably had or has some kind of attachment to Wierwille.  I mean all the grads used to parrot his little word slips and make up dialogue like my friends used to do at the movies with Rocky Horror Picture Show.

The initial appeal to me was a group of knowledgeable committed Christians who studied scripture and were disciplined to live it.

 But it’s not really like that - it all gravitated towards the power and control of one person or a few initiated people.  And those people decide what the true scripture interpretation is and make up rules about it.

The OT talks about people being put in priests offices for morsels of bread.  That is more what it’s really like - a group of personalities with their little fiefdoms of control over others in their group.  And rampant idolatry blowing up VPWs work as larger than life as opposed to plagiarized content and acting which is what it really is.

 

[Twinky]

19 hours ago, chockfull said:

The initial appeal to me was a group of knowledgeable committed Christians who studied scripture and were disciplined to live it.

Same for me.

And I also saw some amazing answers to prayer.  

What I didn't see was people "going through the motions" - but, instead, genuine belief and commitment.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Twinky

[Rocky]

On 7/6/2023 at 6:03 AM, chockfull said:

The initial appeal to me was a group of knowledgeable committed Christians who studied scripture and were [ostensibly] disciplined to live it.

 

[penworks]

Speaking of studying scripture, if you don't know, I was on The Way's biblical research team. That's where I had my realization that VPW's style of research wasn't for me (understatement).

Rather than writing more on that here, I invite you to check out my presentation on YouTube. It's the only one of the more than 20 live presentations I gave over recent years about my Way experience. I'm retired from giving talks now. This is my legacy video.

 

[penworks]

To keep things interesting on this thread ... here's one of my blog posts at https://charleneedge.com dated: May 10, 2018. It's a letter from a pastor in New Knoxville, OH.

Echo in New Knoxville, Ohio: Minister Reads Undertow | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by penworks

[OldSkool]

8 hours ago, penworks said:

To keep things interesting on this thread ... here's one of my blog posts at https://charleneedge.com dated: May 10, 2018. It's a letter from a pastor in New Knoxville, OH.

Echo in New Knoxville, Ohio: Minister Reads Undertow | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

 

 

Penworks, can you explain wht the relationship between the way international and local towns such as New Knoxville? I always caught bits and pieces of various points of contention, both from the size of the ROA and basic pettiness. Don't know how much you had to deal with back in the day. When I came to HQ in 1999 we were told basically, in so many words, not to interact with locals. In retrospect I wonder what that was all about? Wierwille's reputation? anywho. Thanks for considering.

[Nathan_Jr]

A comment on the blog post from Billy Williams stands out.
 

“…all the caring of people seemed to be conditionally available only to those who stayed loyal to the group.”