Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Nathan_Jr]

Not every empath is codependent, but every empath in a relationship with a narc unwittingly becomes codependent.

Whats a better word than victim?

[Rocky]

SMH 

[Twinky]

Just to remind people, this thread is about Charlene's book.  

It is not about snowstorms, snakes in gardens, lesbian sex, or even, really, about VPW himself.  It's about her take on his teaching.  Her book.  Which, doubtless, Mike and other derailers have not read.  

[Bolshevik]

4 hours ago, Twinky said:

Just to remind people, this thread is about Charlene's book.  

It is not about snowstorms, snakes in gardens, lesbian sex, or even, really, about VPW himself.  It's about her take on his teaching.  Her book.  Which, doubtless, Mike and other derailers have not read.  

An interview was posted by the writer of the book that sparks questions.

 

[Bolshevik]

10 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Not every empath is codependent, but every empath in a relationship with a narc unwittingly becomes codependent.

Whats a better word than victim?

Technically, the NPD is victim #1, that's how they are made.  They're compensating for the permanent damage.  Projecting victim mentality outward through the cult strengthens the shared fantasy.

[waysider]

9 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

An interview was posted by the writer of the book that sparks questions.

Questions like:

What does it look like when someone rejects the opportunity to escape?

[Bolshevik]

2 hours ago, waysider said:

Questions like:

What does it look like when someone rejects the opportunity to escape?

By "escape" do you mean turn one's back the relationships formed in The Way International?  Relationships held in place by the authority of government entities?

[Nathan_Jr]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Technically, the NPD is victim #1, that's how they are made.  They're compensating for the permanent damage.  Projecting victim mentality outward through the cult strengthens the shared fantasy.

Maybe target is a more accurate word than victim for those abused by a narcissist?

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Nathan_Jr]

21 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

By "escape" do you mean turn one's back the relationships formed in The Way International?  Relationships held in place by the authority of government entities?

If being in a cult is anything like being in a relationship with a narcissist, one may feel trapped, imprisoned. So, escape makes sense. There are synonyms for escape. It's a word choice.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Bolshevik]

30 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

If being in a cult is anything like being in a relationship with a narcissist, one may feel trapped, imprisoned. So, escape makes sense. There are synonyms for escape. It's a word choice.

I would argue there's usually a form of leverage involved.  Enforced by legal authorities.

The interview focused on feelings, and mental tricks.  

[waysider]

19 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

The interview focused on feelings, and mental tricks.  

I would say that in my case, at least, this would most closely describe my involvement.

There were no legal complications for me, though I can certainly recognize this wasn't the case for everyone, especially for people who had child custody issues to be resolved.

 

edit: Escape can be a rather broad term. For me, it was not a case of being physically restrained.

Edited July 4, 2023 by waysider

[Nathan_Jr]

20 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I would argue there's usually a form of leverage involved.  Enforced by legal authorities.

The interview focused on feelings, and mental tricks.  

Legal authorities are the only ones with leverage? After the cult or narcissist has led one to abandon all friends and family and education and career, where will one go? Where is one’s support? Leverage.

Mental tricks are designed to distort reality. The prison feels real, even if it’s a state of mind.  

[waysider]

And who can forget that old collateral we all loved so dearly, Escape From Your Prisons: A Lesson in Irony.

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Legal authorities are the only ones with leverage? After the cult or narcissist has led one to abandon all friends and family and education and career, where will one go? Where is one’s support? Leverage.

Mental tricks are designed to distort reality. The prison feels real, even if it’s a state of mind.  

"Legal authorities are the only ones with leverage"  I didn't suggest this.  I said they enforce the law.

Your example says folks are really good at burning bridges getting into a cult, but somehow forget that technique getting out.  I don't think that is true.  You got canceled by a group you want to leave, the horror.

 

I was saying there is likely property or children or a secret being kept, as leverage.

 

 

 

 

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

I would say that in my case, at least, this would most closely describe my involvement.

There were no legal complications for me, though I can certainly recognize this wasn't the case for everyone, especially for people who had child custody issues to be resolved.

 

edit: Escape can be a rather broad term. For me, it was not a case of being physically restrained.

The P in PFAL stands for power.  The person least invested holds the power.

[waysider]

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

I was saying there is likely property or children or a secret being kept, as leverage.

 

"If you leave now, the adversary will have free reign to harm your family."

 

(or so we are told, as Advanced Class grads.)

Edited July 4, 2023 by waysider
wording

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

Your example says folks are really good at burning bridges getting into a cult, but somehow forget that technique getting out.  I don't think that is true.  You got canceled by a group you want to leave, the horror.

 

I don't think the effectual burning of bridges in this context is a consciously, deliberately developed skill. It happens incrementally, subtly, over time, and it's never obvious to the bridge burner they are good at burning bridges until they are all burnt. It's not a learned technique then forgotten.

It's crazy. It is not logical. I expected to get cancelled by the narc. That was neither the problem nor the horror.

To your clarified point about legal enforcement of leverage, yes, that is part of the equation. It can prolong the toxic relationship. Even when the target leaves, willfully, happily, the contact with the narc must continue because of a child.

The child is then weaponized by the narc against her target, punishment for seeing the truth, punishment for cutting off the supply, a final strike to destroy the target once and for all before anyone else finds out the truth.

Yes, the horror.

 

 

[waysider]

4 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I don't think the effectual burning of bridges in this context is a consciously, deliberately developed skill. It happens incrementally, subtly, over time, and it's never obvious to the bridge burner they are good at burning bridges until they are all burnt. It's not a learned technique then forgotten.

This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.

Edited July 5, 2023 by waysider
missed a word/spelling

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.

That IS a profound realization. My latest reading adventure, Mama's Last Hug, has likewise profound insight related to things GSCers have reflected on, including but not limited to "going farther than one has been led;" and learning by imitation, IOW how did we get there in the first place.

It also highlights what Augustin Fuentes has said in YouTube shorts that rather than "we are what we eat," instead, we are (or become like) WHO WE MEET. (he says this at the 5:05 point in this video) 

 

 

[Rocky]

The entire third chapter of Mama's Last Hug discusses empathy and sympathy.

I go back in my mind to reflect on the lack of concern both Wierwille and Martindale consistently (at least in the open) demonstrated toward those outside of the "in group." They, of course, defined the "in group" as the Household." Further defined as those who "took the class and stood with twi."

I have long viewed that position as callous and lacking in the care necessary to properly exercise the Ministry of Reconciliation. See II Cor 5:17-19. 
 

Personally, I can almost understand how/why those two (Victor and Loy) wouldn't be able to grasp the ministry of reconciliation because so much has been studied and written about empathy since the end of the personal ministries (inside of twi) of both of them.

Then again, had either or both of them actually been "tapped in" to the love of God, instead of being more concerned about using their personal position (power/authority) to satisfied their own old nature passions, they might have been able to figure it out without Frans de Waal or Dacher Keltner.

[Bolshevik]

17 hours ago, waysider said:

"If you leave now, the adversary will have free reign to harm your family."

 

(or so we are told, as Advanced Class grads.)

Correct.  It's also a blatant lie.  Authority is handed over to the liar.  The name of this website says the liar still holds it.

P, P-FAL

 

[Bolshevik]

 

8 hours ago, Rocky said:

The entire third chapter of Mama's Last Hug discusses empathy and sympathy.

I go back in my mind to reflect on the lack of concern both Wierwille and Martindale consistently (at least in the open) demonstrated toward those outside of the "in group." They, of course, defined the "in group" as the Household." Further defined as those who "took the class and stood with twi."

. . . 

LCM used to argue "everyone NEEDS to believe something" . . . it was a threat . . . coercing a decision

Same with sense of belonging . . . it is used to encourage people to make a decision to emotionally attach to something they probably should not . . . everyone needs to belong . . . you feel it don't you? . . . well you belong here . . . and we will help you feel the feely feels the way other places do not.  . . . Now here's some more vocabulary for our little love language for your brain

[Bolshevik]

16 hours ago, waysider said:

This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.

I've felt that in TWI.  I've felt that in another circumstance.  Of course with TWI I didn't exactly burn bridges . . . BUT . . . cutting the cord is supposed to be painful. 

Usually I remember I would freeze up, just stand there.  Was late teens/early 20s a lot.  Then the group would bring someone like the Limb Leader for a scream fest.  Followed by I would go through the motions for awhile longer.

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Bolshevik
example

[chockfull]

13 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I've felt that in TWI.  I've felt that in another circumstance.  Of course with TWI I didn't exactly burn bridges . . . BUT . . . cutting the cord is supposed to be painful. 

 

 

Would you say that since you never really cut ties or burn bridges that is why your view and mind seems to be straddling a fence?  Where half the time you seem like a TWI apologist and the other half critical?

 

[chockfull]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:46 AM, Bolshevik said:

I've reread what Penworks wrote again and again.  It sounds completely helpless.  Her insides were screaming to act and she refused to give herself authority in the situation.  VPW could have been a 6 year old making demands to his mother.  (I'm sure the story changes later)

 

*set hand on flat on desk . . . smashes it repeatedly with a hammer* . . . I had no choice.

I read what you wrote here.  It sounds completely without empathy.  It sounds like you refuse to acknowledge the ties that family, friends, marriages, and long time associations produce by nature of those relationships existing.

Sure at any time any of us could have escaped the bondage we endured by refusing at that moment to accept the false authority usurped by tyrants, cutting ties and leaving.

So what? 

I find your example comparing this to hitting yourself in the hand repeatedly to be very inaccurate as well as triggering and judgmental.  Ties formed by family and choices aren’t easily reversed.  You can’t just wave your hand like they never existed.

But that’s you so it’s par for the course.