Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Lifted Up]

15 hours ago, Rocky said:

Let's not forget that he purposefully taught that we should be slaves. dromos doulu or something like that.

Yes, but we were to love giving that obedience to our "loving father in the Word".

[Lifted Up]

11 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Other times, you were called "kids" and told to show up in pajamas for a late meeting, or whatever.

Yes, and it was those times, while he was trying to show us his "loving father" self, that I think was supposed to keep us in obedience when we had to endure his not so fatherly wrath.

[Twinky]

Y'all know that VPW forgot this (and y'all know he said he forgot a lot of Bible, more'n that preacher ever knew, or was it a British theologian?  who cares?) - anyway, VPW forgot this:

Romans 2:5 

For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. And we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, O man, [O any leadership in TWI] pass judgment on others, yet do the same things [or worse], do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance?

I am not sure that the "long suit" of any of TWI's leadership was "kindness, tolerance, and patience."  What their "long suit" was, led to fear and intimidation.

[T-Bone]

On 3/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, Lifted Up said:

I think you gave some good reasons why your book is still going strong. One reason is that cult trauma, like any trauma, is lifelong. We old folks are still being affected, and I think others find the book relevant because cults and abusers, no matter how different from each other, use so many common techniques, so today's cult survivors find it relevant.

Do you feel that in many ways we were treated as children in the Way? My best survivor friend is not Way or cult related, but a child abuse survivor who helped start a large national group to fight abuse. A few years ago she suggested a book written by Mike Lew for child abuse survivors to help in my recovery from my Way sexual assault, even though she knew it happened to me as an adult. She understood; it's amazing how much she knows. And I have found the relevance myself in my support group interactions with survivors of church and other child abuse.

 

 

On 3/12/2022 at 3:09 PM, penworks said:

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: Wierwille called us Way Corps members his "kids." This habit was deliberate on his part.

Obedience was a primary goal of Wierwille's... he touted God as asking us to obey "His Word." Obey, obey, obey. That's what parents ask children to do.

Infantile people do not question authority. They obey it.

 

11 hours ago, Lifted Up said:

Yes, but we were to love giving that obedience to our "loving father in the Word".

 

11 hours ago, Lifted Up said:

Yes, and it was those times, while he was trying to show us his "loving father" self, that I think was supposed to keep us in obedience when we had to endure his not so fatherly wrath.

      

Thanks, Lifted Up and Penworks!

 

These posts got me to reflect again on how much of my way corps training was like being in a family with overbearing parents… wierwille calling us “his kids” probably did a real psychological number on my mind – generating some kind of weird endearment - inspiring love or affection for wierwille, in a childlike way. Yuk!

I think of the isolation of the way corps training program – being physically isolated from friends and our REAL family who might otherwise provide a reality check – besides being cut off from outside information, newspapers, books, TV (when I was in there was no internet…no forums like waydale, transchat or Grease Spot ) – all this ensured that the ONLY reality I got to experience was the one presented by the way corps training program…

 

The isolation process made me dependent and obedient… If leadership didn’t sense adequate zeal and loyalty on my part – I could be at risk of verbal attacks, public face-melting, face a strenuous private interrogation – or even the threat of expulsion!

Unless you’ve been through the way corps program – you have no idea of what utter despair, hopelessness and fear of expulsion can do to your psyche…something was slowly whittled away…I became more pliable…even willing to compromise on certain convictions and give up any freedoms in order to stay in good graces with leadership and enjoy the comfort of the elite social system of the way corps - my make-believe family...and "father knows best" Yikes!!!!!

yeah – overbearing parents is a nice way to describe TWI-leadership in the way corps training program…

in general, the leadership or management style of TWI is authoritarian - enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom…somehow mulling this stuff over while Googling – and in a sublime fit of synchronicity I stumbled upon a website that got into authoritarian parenting…I thought perfect! 

Check out these excerpts below – I think they might apply to wierwille and company - the similarities are mind-blowing:

Authoritarian parenting is a parenting style characterized by high demands and low responsiveness. It was one of the parenting styles described by developmental psychologist Diana Baumrind. Parents with an authoritarian style have very high expectations of their children, yet provide very little in the way of feedback and nurturing. Mistakes tend to be punished harshly. When feedback is given, it is often negative. Yelling and corporal punishment are also common with the authoritarian style.

People with this parenting style often use punishment rather than discipline. They are commonly not willing or able to explain the reasoning behind their rules.

Baumrind believed that one of the major roles that parents play in a child's life is to socialize them to the values and expectations of their culture. How parents accomplish this, however, can vary dramatically based upon the amount of control they attempt to exert over their children.

The authoritarian approach represents the most controlling style. Rather than valuing self-control and teaching children to manage their own behaviors, the authoritarian parent focuses on adherence to authority. Instead of rewarding positive behavior, the authoritarian parent only provides feedback in the form of punishments for misbehavior.

Demanding, But Not Responsive
Authoritarian parents have lots of rules and may even micromanage nearly all aspects of their children's lives and behaviors, at home and in public. Additionally, they also have many unwritten rules that kids are expected to follow—even though children receive little to no explicit instruction about these "rules." Instead, children are simply expected to know that these rules exist and follow them.

Little Warmth or Nurturing
Parents with this style often seem cold, aloof, and harsh. They are more likely to nag or yell at their children than offer encouragement and praise. They value discipline over fun and expect that children should be seen and not heard.

Little Explanation for Punishments
Parents with this style usually have no problem resorting to corporal punishment, which often involves spanking. Rather than relying on positive reinforcement, they react swiftly and harshly when the rules are broken.

Few Choices for Children
Authoritarian parents don't give children choices or options. Parents set the rules and have a "my way or the highway" approach to discipline. There is little room for negotiation, and they rarely allow their children to make their own choices.

Impatient With Misbehavior
Authoritarian parents expect their children to simply know better than to engage in undesirable behaviors. They lack the patience for explaining why their children should avoid certain behaviors and expend little energy talking about feelings.

Mistrusting
Authoritarian parents don't trust their children to make good choices. Parents with this style don't give their children much freedom to demonstrate that they can display good behavior on their own. Rather than letting kids make decisions on their own and face natural consequences for those choices, authoritarian parents hover over their kids in order to ensure that they don't make mistakes.

Unwilling to Negotiate
Authoritarian parents don't believe in gray areas. Situations are viewed as black and white and there is little to no room for compromise. Kids don't get a say or a vote when it comes to setting rules or making decisions.

Shaming
Authoritarian parents can be highly critical and may use shame as a tactic to force children into following the rules, using phrases such as "Why do you always do that?," "How many times do I have to tell you the same thing?," or "Why can't you do anything right?" Rather than looking for ways to build their children's self-esteem, these parents often believe that shaming will motivate children to do better.
from: What is Authoritarian Parenting?

End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~ 

The other synchronificant  hit (I think I just made up a new word    ) in my Googling was a Psychology Today article on why authoritarians love religion…which made me think of the “perfect storm” – the way corps training program and pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult-leaders…a great pairing where each perfectly complements the other! Yikes!...anyway check out these excerpts:

Why Authoritarians Love Religion

The authoritarian personality finds in religion a match made in Heaven
Authoritarians naturally love authoritarian institutions like religion and the military. They love the idea of someone giving orders and others obliged to take orders, they love the idea of strict punishments like courts-martial and hell fires, they love the hierarchal nature of such institutions and forced gestures like saluting and kneeling, and they love the permission such institutions give you to hate others, all those millions of enemies and infidels.

Of course, authoritarians may also avoid the military like the plague and not believe in gods in the least—remember that cynicism and hypocrisy are also hallmark qualities of authoritarians. But they love the authoritarian flavor of such institutions and intuitively understand that they ought to align with them, at least publicly. That’s why authoritarian non-believers who seek public office will profess a belief in gods in which they don’t believe and a love of religion which they never demonstrate.

For both authoritarian leaders and authoritarian followers, religion is a wonderful convenience. It allows them to lord it over other people, since they alone know the truth. It allows them to punish people guilt-free, since that punishment is on a god’s orders. It allows them to deny reason by dubbing the irrational “faith.” It gives them extra ways to bully people, especially women, who are regularly regarded as second class. It is just about everything an authoritarian could wish for.

End of excerpts
From: Psychology Today – Why Authoritarians love religion

~ ~ ~ ~ 

I feel there is something so promising and hopeful about books like Undertow and all the stuff that Grease Spotters have shared over the years…for those still in TWI - it’s sort of like hearing from siblings who have already left the home of overbearing parents – and they hear of the great big worlds of discovery that awaits them…but first they must decide to leave the comfortable nest of overbearing parents.

Edited March 14, 2022 by T-Bone
the synchronized editor

[WordWolf]

In semi-private,  vpw was very vocal about the military, and how he envied it- and he only EVER talked about ONE THING about the military.  It wasn't how you can learn a trade, or upward mobility for under-educated and broke families, or patriotism and representing one's country, or defense of liberty, or any other reason to join.  He was vocally envious of the military's ability to have someone give orders and to have them obeyed WITHOUT QUESTION.  

Of course, the REAL military doesn't QUITE work that way.   Unlawful orders lead to court-martials and consequences like a stay at Fort Leavenworth for the one issuing bad orders.   The IMAGINARY military vpw envied exists in movies and the media, not in real life.  

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, Twinky said:

For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

How about that... even back in biblical times, some people grasped the idea of psychological projection. Right you are Twinky!

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Rocky

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

yeah – overbearing parents is a nice way to describe TWI-leadership in the way corps training program…

Yeah, it took me YEARS to get over that when raising children. 

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

Of course, the REAL military doesn't QUITE work that way.   Unlawful orders lead to court-martials and consequences like a stay at Fort Leavenworth for the one issuing bad orders.

How very true, especially in combat. Bad leadership kills people. Quickly.

For those wanting to explore military leadership and training thereof, I highly recommend two books I read a year or two ago.

1) One Bullet Away: the Making of a Marine Officer by Nathanial Fick

In this deeply thoughtful account of what it’s like to fight on today’s front lines, Fick reveals the crushing pressure on young leaders in combat. Split-second decisions might have national consequences or horrible immediate repercussions, but hesitation isn’t an option. One Bullet Away never shrinks from blunt truths, but ultimately it is an inspiring account of mastering the art of war.

2) General Jim Mattis's memoir, Call Sign Chaos: Learning to Lead.

There's NFW Victor Wierwille would have made a decent military leader. One must be genuinely compassionate for those entrusted to your care.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Rocky

[WordWolf]

To say nothing of how much WORK it is.  vpw was too lazy to make it through Basic Training, let alone Officer's Candidacy School.   He would have tried to be the sergeant who ruled the Motor Pool, or the Supply Officer- and try to use the position to garner favors from everyone. (Grease his palm a bit if you want him to do his job and you're not an officer.)

[chockfull]

Spot on with the overbearing parents analogy.  My kids suffered trauma due to communal oversight of children in the cult.  I have had to work very hard at not being an overbearing authoritarian .... with my children due to the example set in the Way Corps.  
 

I am sure the egocentric BOD think I should be thankful to them for the family I have.

In reality I am thankful to God both for my family and that He provided an avenue for me to escape the maladaptive patterns that were set in the functioning of the Way so that my kids don’t experience 3 generations of consequences 

[Bolshevik]

12 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 . . . They love the idea of someone giving orders and others obliged to take orders, they love the idea of strict punishments . . .

Of course, authoritarians may also avoid the military like the plague and not believe in gods in the least—remember that cynicism and hypocrisy are also hallmark qualities of authoritarians. 

. . .

 

 

AFAIK, someone with an unstable self concept, one that changes erratically and constantly, wants that imposed structure to soothe them. . . to have an identity and feel stable . . . but at the same time self awareness is a horrifically mortifying experience . . . so that must be avoided whatever the cost.  

Thus the hypocrisy.

[Lifted Up]

On 3/13/2022 at 10:50 PM, T-Bone said:

yeah – overbearing parents is a nice way to describe TWI-leadership in the way corps training program…

 

 

My best survivor friend understood that idea, despite having little knowledge of TWI or any cults. She is a child abuse survivor who helped start a large national group to fight abuse. She suggested to me that a book written specifically for male child abuse survivors might help me heal from my Way sexual assault (at 29). She was right. This was after she helped me fully recall everything and break my silence. Her help sort of culminated my waking up that probably started with Kristen Skedgell's "Losing the Way". Didn't end my healing; still working on that.

[penworks]

Recently, a person whose been involved with TWI and an offshoot contacted me after she read Undertow. We had a wonderful phone conversation which inspired me to send her an article about what I did after escaping TWI.

So ... here's the link to that article, which is a blog post on my website.

Charlene’s Post-Cult Nonreligious Alternative | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

Cheers,

Charlene 

[Twinky]

Good points, Charlene.
I note the "Dahlia Lama" and wonder if your computer is out to sabotage your efforts?

[penworks]

Thanks, Twinky. I corrected that typo. It now reads "Dalai Lama."

[waysider]

I don't know. I rather liked the mental image of a boutonniere-wearing pack animal.

[penworks]

Some of you know that in 1987, I escaped the fundamentalism and cult control of The Way International when I drove away from TWI headquarters in New Knoxville, Ohio, and never went back.

I don't intend to return there in person. However, by checking in here at GSC every once in a while, I end up revisiting, by way of people's memories and documented facts, some of the terrible problems that issued from cultic beliefs and behaviors of Way leaders and some followers. I also rejoice in much healing. Your stories are important and I thank you for them. 

Today, I watched the televised coverage of Cassidy Hutchinson give her testimony of what happened behind-the-scenes in the White House leading up to, during, and shortly after the insurrection at the nation's Captial on Jan. 6, 2021. What struck me was how powerful a calm, fact-based, and as-best-as-I-remember personal testimony can be.

Likewise, personal testimony here at GSC by former followers who tell the truth about what happened to them while associated with The Way can and HAS helped people understand the dangers of cultic manipulation. And I KNOW it has helped steer some people away from The Way. Some of them write to me. Some of them, particularly some from my daughter's generation whose parents are still in denial about the abuses of VPW, etc., reach out to me after reading Undertow.

Thank you, Greasespotters, for your support of Undertow over the years. I urge all of us to continue telling our stories in a manner that invites thoughtful consideration. It's up to us to inform and to heal former Way followers when we can. Let's lay off any distracting nonsense (that shows up in some threads here) and remember: every word matters.

[T-Bone]

We’ve been glued to the TV following the hearings too! And Tonto and I have also been struck by the parallels to our unique TWI-cult experience. Last week a testimony given by one witness – I think he was an election official – commenting about some people who deny the facts (i.e., no evidence of voter fraud) he said he was astonished how some people could ignore hard facts. He offered up his thoughts on how or why they do that saying something along the lines that when an idea gets to your heart it enables you to defy reason. I think a lot of Grease Spotters can relate to that happening in their TWI-daze  

Jordan Klepper   a journalist, writer, and commentator  went to a rally and showed some folks clips of testimonies from the Jan. 6 hearings    - see video    here  - and it’s fascinating to watch the reaction of some folks who have creative ways to discount testimonies given in depositions…one denier said it’s obvious that person was bought off to lie in the deposition…another testimony validating that deposition was explained away at the rally as being a clone of the person because the real person would not validate the lie given in the deposition…excuse me for being so vague…don’t want to get sidetracked with politics. 

Anyway, I think related to this topic is another cultic-issue – why do people believe in conspiracy theories? Here’s an excerpt from an interesting article:

"Researchers suggest that there are a number of different reasons why people believe in conspiracy theories. Many of these explanations boil down to three key driving factors:

A need for understanding and consistency (epistemic)

A need for control (existential)

A need to belong or feel special (social)"

From: Why People Believe in Conspiracy Theories
~ ~ ~ ~ 

See also 
Psychology Today: why people ignore facts

10 Reasons Why People Believe Conspiracy Theories

Why do people willfully and purposely ignore facts?

 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

 

Also wanted to add I’m really enjoying reading Penworks' new book    From the Porch to the Page: A Guidebook for the Writing Life  ....and just wanted to say to Grease Spotters don’t let the words “guidebook for the writing life” throw you…writing grocery lists and posting on Grease Spot Café is about the only writing I do, and I think Penworks’ new book is inspiring and thoughtful for anyone’s Grease Spot muse. 
 

Edited June 28, 2022 by T-Bone
the clarifying clarifier

[chockfull]

I would love to read penworks new book.  This is a lady who embodies the art form of journaling.  I’ve heard many talk about how putting pen to paper figuratively does something for the soul in connection and processing.  She has done this and developed it into important literature for humanity in an area.   Thanks Charlene!

I also went through a transformation post Way.  Rigid thinking kills, and there is nothing more rigid than fundamentalism.  Fundamentalism to me from my perspective right now is how to build a scribe and Pharisee church.  Fundamentalism to me is like socialism - the zealous use it to gain power and the actual implementation of the idea is impossible because of human weakness.  Nobody will really give up power for community.  They seek the selfish route.

I did not go back to my old church or religion.  Well later I did visit my childhood church in travels but nobody remembered me my best friend from high school was dead the pastors were all next generation and the old friends I had from church were not really interested in reconnection.  I had kind of hoped for a pen pal to no avail.  But it was cool to see how the church actually still prioritized community - their buildings are all used all week by different non profit groups that meet there.  Is this a cost of burning bridges?  Maybe.  But it was a part of recovery from the Way for me.

I also connected with a professor of a liberal college in town who is a disciple of one of the Dalai Lamas regional monks.  I still do some meditation with that group occasionally.  The Dalai Lama sect of Buddhism has a lot more writings and teachings than the experiential focused groups.  So a teaching to be a better human along with meditation.  I’m not gonna lie that experience is better than a Way fellowship.  So is a mainstream Christian church.  Even with all of the problems.

ok I will share a meditation that I do but I don’t share a ton of this personal stuff because I don’t think anyone would relate.  This is called the white skeleton meditation.  You sit and focus on breath to get into calm state like all meditation.  The idea of any meditation is to remove the layers of dust - baggage of emotion and thought whirling around clouding judgement and focusing in what you want to become.  Anyway, white skeletons.  Once you are in the relaxed state, I envision going through a normal day drive, get gas, work.  Except every one I interact with is a skeleton and I myself am a skeleton.  Bone only.  No flesh, skin.  But walking and talking.  Then envision a community of skeletons and a world of skeletons.  About 20 min.

This is from a Tibetan Buddhist.  I believe the intent is to dissolve that which separates mankind bias race skin color body type religion money and to develop compassion.  
 

To me it’s nice and relaxing.  It does dissolve some things.  It does balance out emotion.  It does relax.  I don’t know about the compassion thing for me.  But with ptsd it calms me down and I’m on the spectrum a bit so compassion is a bit non normal emotion at times I’m developing.  Along with my sense of humor my kids tell me.

ok so much for personal sharing now I gotta go hide.

 

[Twinky]

11 hours ago, chockfull said:

Fundamentalism to me is like socialism

Chocky, I'd just like to remind you that socialism is NOT the same as communism.

And I respectfully suggest that you may have a wrong conception of both forms of arranging life in a country.  This is not the forum to debate this.  There's plenty of material available online for you to check.  Just don't fall for the myth that the American way is the only or the "best" way to run a country.  Most other countries would strongly disagree, and consider much of America is all - and only - about greed.

[Twinky]

11 hours ago, chockfull said:

Rigid thinking kills, and there is nothing more rigid than fundamentalism.  

I'll certainly agree with you on this one.  Whether the fundamentalism is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other type of religion.  (Can Buddhists become fundies?) 

And not just religion, either.  It can be encountered without too much difficulty in the business world.

[WordWolf]

10 hours ago, Twinky said:

I'll certainly agree with you on this one.  Whether the fundamentalism is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other type of religion.  (Can Buddhists become fundies?) 

And not just religion, either.  It can be encountered without too much difficulty in the business world.

I don't know if they're "fundies", but there's Buddhist terrorists.

""The problem is far too many Westerners fail to understand that Buddhism, like any other religion, can be misused for political purposes," Phil Robertson, deputy Asia director at Human Rights Watch.""

The Khmer Rouge were, and look into Myanmar or Sri Lanka if you want some current examples.   There's more out there as well- but that's POLITICS, so, off-topic at the GSC.  You can look it up fairly easily on the internet in 2022.

[penworks]

For those interested, my books are discounted beginning today until next Wednesday to celebrate the 4th of July. 

Details here.

Edited July 1, 2022 by penworks

[penworks]

Hi Greasespotters,

Does anyone want my extra copy ofThe Way: Living in Love, by Elena Scott Whiteside for FREE? I'll mail it to you for free, also.

I know, I know, why would anyone want that blatant piece of Wierwille propaganda? For historical purposes, I say. 

Example: a daughter of a former top Way leader found some invaluable family history in the book. And I quote from it in my own book, Undertow.

Let me know asap, either by replying here in this thread, or sending me a private message through this site.

Cheers,

Penworks

a.k.a. Charlene Lamy Edge

Edited September 21, 2022 by penworks

[penworks]

Happy upcoming Thanksgiving, Greasespotters. I'm very thankful for the many insights I've gained at this site where so many of you have read my memoir: Undertow.

This November I celebrate Undertow's 6th birthday. Time sure flies...

A little background:

When I was 16 years old, my mother passed away on the day before Thanksgiving. That trauma, I believe, made me (in part) vulnerable to Way recruiters' claims of teaching "the rightly divided word" two years later at East Carolina University. 

Flash forward:

in 2016, my goal was to publish Undertow in honor of my mother just as Thanksgiving rolled around. With the support of many good folks, like some of you reading this post, I met that goal.

Thanks again for your kind support and interest in Undertow!

While supplies last:

You can get a personalized, discounted copy of my second book, From the Porch to the Page: A Guidebook for the Writing Life. Send me a message here.

Cheers,

Penworks