yeah, awesome right? I'm not sure how new this is, I think at least a year old. It does all boil down to a BOD that is clueless and unable to admit they are wrong. We had something similar about 10 years ago when we were pressured to make smaller fellowship sizes and more fellowships. It was supposed to improve retention by giving people more individualized attention. With the no-debt policy ("we don't have a debt policy, we have a teaching from God's Word, and requirements to participate in certain programs..." yeah, yeah, shut up, it's a policy), we had not enough fellowship coordinator candidates to meet the new "more, smaller groups" mandate. This led to the invention in some areas of the "Fellowship Contact", a person who was the de facto fellowship coordinator but without the title. The branch coordinator was supposed to be the real coordinator, giving them extra attention, because they didn't have a real coordinator. I always hated that and treated them like the rest of the hfc's. Back then I still thought it would work itself out - they would see the problem and fix it. I was wrong of course.
Recently, I was talking to my mom about this Bible Study/Fellowship distinction. She told me one of them - I think the Bible Study - was supposed to be more outreach focused while the other was more in-depth in the Word. I might be flipping it, but it seemed silly. "Oh, so you guys aren't focused on outreach now?" "No, no, we still do outreach." "Well, what's the distinction? What do they do that you don't do, and visa versa?" Never really got anywhere on that. They are still trying really hard to figure out how to "move the Word". It must be discouraging and confusing to believe the Word IS over the World, and this here now is what prevailing looks like. Nobody wants what they are peddling.
So I ran into a TWIt a bit ago. They were explaining to me the new hierarchy in TWI. Besides the BOD, and the Corpse field leadership, we have a couple new classifications of leaders:
1. Household Fellowship Coordinators - for those with no debt
2. Bible Study Coordinators - for those with debt.
Apparently the hard-line stance TWI has taken against mortgages and student loans has intensified. All of the followers of TWI have been complaining about the debt policy for the last 10 years. The BODummies response is this. Make a new layer in the caste system. <snip>
The new hierarchy in twi is running on fumes. Just more bureaucratic bullsheet......it keeps extending "job titles" to encourage involvement.
Back in the early '80s, this is what was happening during Tom Kn-upp's tenure in overseeing Zaire, Africa.......those involved were continually seeking designated titles that gave them a leg-up over their peers. In oppressed societies, like Zaire.....followers seemed to relish having designated power that others around them did not have. Therefore, as the twig fellowships swelled to 40-60 people.....all kinds of titles where initiated to give the coordinator an inner-circle of "go-fers" to get things done. Heck, being a designated greeter was a big deal.
Twi's debt-policy has to go thru all kinds of contortions to stay viable.
. . . They are still trying really hard to figure out how to "move the Word". It must be discouraging and confusing to believe the Word IS over the World, and this here now is what prevailing looks like. Nobody wants what they are peddling.
no no. They ARE making progress. No good comes with haste.
What they are doing is softening the ground for planting seed in people's minds.
It takes a lot of effort. And a long time before results are visible.
A long, long time.
Like, long long after anyone who notices is gone kind of time frame. Believe.
What a total load of bullocks. How much more inventive can TWI be, in belittling people?
Most everyone you meet has a debt - a mortgage - that they are working to pay off. It's cheaper than renting, often. (Even though my mortgage is quite a lot of money, it would be nearly twice as much to rent a similar place - and I couldn't rent anywhere remotely habitable for what I pay in mortgage... a grotty bedsit, maybe?) (Actually, I couldn't even afford to rent a place!!)
Debt has risks, true, but there are risks in not having debts. Much better to help people think about their money in a proper manner, learn to budget properly, and work out the best way to borrow if there is really no other way.
My church hosts a Christians Against Poverty debt centre to help people in debt. Helps them manage finances, gives them a compassionate hand up when they're crushed by debt, sets up debt plans and even bankruptcy (so as to give a fresh start). Isn't that a better way to encourage people with debt - rather than beat them over the head with Bible verses? And the gentle compassionate approach - guess what! - leads some people to choose to become very thankful Christians.
What a total load of bullocks. How much more inventive can TWI be, in belittling people?
Most everyone you meet has a debt - a mortgage - that they are working to pay off. It's cheaper than renting, often. (Even though my mortgage is quite a lot of money, it would be nearly twice as much to rent a similar place - and I couldn't rent anywhere remotely habitable for what I pay in mortgage... a grotty bedsit, maybe?) (Actually, I couldn't even afford to rent a place!!)
Debt has risks, true, but there are risks in not having debts. Much better to help people think about their money in a proper manner, learn to budget properly, and work out the best way to borrow if there is really no other way.
Yeah......why isn't twi TEACHING people to properly budget, borrow and leverage debt to their advantage? Could it be.....that they do NOT want to see people empowered and moving forward? Just seems that the more people advance in opportunities, careers, money-smarts, and life choices.......then, they exit twi altogether.
And, yeah.....a mortgage has some risks, but living in a rental apartment/home in a less-than-better side of town HAS RISKS.
And.....when that mortgage is paid off, happy days are here again. Woohoo !!
Then you can decide how well you've managed your God's money.
If you still can't make a decision on that, just remember there is always THIS
Good article on rationalizing mistakes – thanks for that link Bolshevik !!!
The article reminded me of how much the TWI mindset is geared toward masking cognitive dissonance – or how to explain away the issues when TWI beliefs come in contact with reality. We were encouraged to base financial decisions on ideas like “putting the word first” – things put forth in “Christians Should Be Prosperous”, teachings on the law of believing or other nonsense that went along the lines of wishful thinking (ok – there, I said it). If you did not receive the desired results then obviously you deviated from the “sound principles” in TWI doctrine –you did something wrong.
Another thing is that life is complicated enough – without adding the impractical complexities of TWI doctrine that justify giving reality the cold shoulder. In my opinion, nothing does more to cloud one’s understanding of how things work than to navigate life’s journey based on TWI’s convoluted-treasure-hunt-map of life. At first, it was so scary for us applying for a home loan so soon after leaving TWI. But as we went through the process it got simpler and less stressful – it was one of those ah-yes-this-is-what-adults-do moments.
Another thing that bugs me about their “no debt” policy – it’s a rather dogmatic interpretation of Romans 13 owe no man anything but to love one another. Personally, I lean more toward the NIV translation of Rom.13: 8 - Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another...to me, this conveys the idea of being financially responsible to any debts you may have – and even though you eventually pay them off - you are still indebted to love one another.
Looking back - I guess I am also suspicious of leadership’s motivation in pushing “no-debt”. I remember a line of thought that stuck with me after I got off the WOW field – something like you should be ready to move in 24 hours – I got it from somewhere – maybe a teaching of vp’s – I don’t know….I remember another “gem” – to travel fast and far in this ministry you have to travel light… Anyway, I think those “gems” really helped leaders persuade folks to go WOW, Corps, to go into other programs, or even just move to another part of town to open a fellowship there - since they were not tied down with any financial responsibilities. Hopefully the old clunker held together by Way bumper stickers would get them there safe and sound…And just think of all that money people waste in home ownership – with repairs and improvements – when that money could go to TWI of course!
Another thing that bugs me about their “no debt” policy – it’s a rather dogmatic interpretation of Romans 13 owe no man anything but to love one another. Personally, I lean more toward the NIV translation of Rom.13: 8 - Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another...to me, this conveys the idea of being financially responsible to any debts you may have – and even though you eventually pay them off - you are still indebted to love one another.
Looking back - I guess I am also suspicious of leadership’s motivation in pushing “no-debt”. I remember a line of thought that stuck with me after I got off the WOW field – something like you should be ready to move in 24 hours – I got it from somewhere – maybe a teaching of vp’s – I don’t know….I remember another “gem” – to travel fast and far in this ministry you have to travel light… Anyway, I think those “gems” really helped leaders persuade folks to go WOW, Corps, to go into other programs, or even just move to another part of town to open a fellowship there - since they were not tied down with any financial responsibilities. Hopefully the old clunker held together by Way bumper stickers would get them there safe and sound…And just think of all that money people waste in home ownership – with repairs and improvements – when that money could go to TWI of course!
Thanks, T-Bone......that NIV translation seems to fit better.
And.....yeah, "you should be ready to move in 24 hours" type-of-indoctrination. I've always considered twi's debt-policy "a coercive-contortionist exercise that only enables twi to exert its control over corps/followers." Back in 1981, The Way Credit Union sanctioned home mortgages and car loans thru the credit union.....only the LATER backtrack and started instituting the debt-policy. Why did hq-staffers get favored status to go ahead and get mortgages (yeah, I'm looking at you, Linder.....and Rowe, and B. Mason.....those security guys, to name a few) while field corps were NOT allowed? Just seemed to me that those annual corps placement meetings were a real dud when more and more corps were locked into a home mortgage and all.
What a total load of bullocks. How much more inventive can TWI be, in belittling people?
Most everyone you meet has a debt - a mortgage - that they are working to pay off. It's cheaper than renting, often. (Even though my mortgage is quite a lot of money, it would be nearly twice as much to rent a similar place - and I couldn't rent anywhere remotely habitable for what I pay in mortgage... a grotty bedsit, maybe?) (Actually, I couldn't even afford to rent a place!!)
Debt has risks, true, but there are risks in not having debts. Much better to help people think about their money in a proper manner, learn to budget properly, and work out the best way to borrow if there is really no other way.
My church hosts a Christians Against Poverty debt centre to help people in debt. Helps them manage finances, gives them a compassionate hand up when they're crushed by debt, sets up debt plans and even bankruptcy (so as to give a fresh start). Isn't that a better way to encourage people with debt - rather than beat them over the head with Bible verses? And the gentle compassionate approach - guess what! - leads some people to choose to become very thankful Christians.
Yes many modern churches have a similar approach. Many like the works of Dave Ramsey and utilize them as teaching materials for any who are interested. This you could categorize as a loving godly approach.
TWI has a debt policy. Their view of people who have any kind of debt is that they are milk Christians who can't digest the meat of the Word, therefore they have a policy that people aren't able to take their Advanced Class until they have no debt. They can't be fellowship coordinators, they can't go way disciple, they can't go into the Corps. They also lie about this, saying they don't have a debt policy, they have a teaching from the Bible and requirements for classes or programs. This is a lie. It is a policy. Otherwise, why would they restrict entry into any advanced training or leadership program tied to it?
How closed-minded are they about this? Well, I personally know of more than one time that it was brought up at top leadership placement meetings in general discussions with the BODummies, and then immediately shut down. What I mean by shut down is that the topic was closed for discussion in an open mic session immediately. I also know of a Corps person who did a good deal of research on the topic, and sent it in presenting it in a very loving and non-confrontational way. The intent of the paper was to try and get the thickheaded BOD to soften the stance and the policy, more like the Bible's approach. This individual was dropped from the Corps and kicked out of the ministry for basically presenting the research. The same kind of vicious response from top leadership as you see with what's his face presenting the paper on adultery.
TWI has a debt policy. And vicious reactions to people who try to show them from the scriptures anything to soften their hard line stance. They purport to be a ministry with Biblical research in the title, yet they close their minds to the scriptures teachings and approaches.
This latest installation of the caste system, the "Bible study coordinator" IMO arose because of the grass roots movement among the TWI followers to basically ignore the debt teaching and get home mortgages and student loans anyway. So many areas have nobody that was dumb enough to rent in bad areas of town just to have the title of fellowship coordinator. Or you would have basically 80% of the local remaining followers - the ones with roots in the community and kids in school - all of those types would have mortgages. Your basic follower living in civil disobedience to this hard-line mandate. But then there was nobody "qualified to lead", and the Corpse transient debt-less renters in bad areas of town would have to cover more and more fellowships as leaders. So this is their compromise. Let the 80% have a few of their own little get-togethers, but named differently.
How closed-minded are they about this? Well, I personally know of more than one time that it was brought up at top leadership placement meetings in general discussions with the BODummies, and then immediately shut down. What I mean by shut down is that the topic was closed for discussion in an open mic session immediately. I also know of a Corps person who did a good deal of research on the topic, and sent it in presenting it in a very loving and non-confrontational way. The intent of the paper was to try and get the thickheaded BOD to soften the stance and the policy, more like the Bible's approach. This individual was dropped from the Corps and kicked out of the ministry for basically presenting the research. The same kind of vicious response from top leadership as you see with what's his face presenting the paper on adultery.
TWI has a debt policy. And vicious reactions to people who try to show them from the scriptures anything to soften their hard line stance. They purport to be a ministry with Biblical research in the title, yet they close their minds to the scriptures teachings and approaches.
[...]
Stubborn, stupid, and abusive.
The writer of the research paper apparently didn't grasp the purpose of the debt policy, thinking that the organization held to biblical scholarship above all else. Silly, naive youngster. Reminds me of Romans 5:3-4. "Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;4 perseverance, character; and character, hope."
My PI: we aren't discouraged by the lessons from the school of hard knocks because we know that's how we learn life's lessons and build character and patience.
From the perspective of the CULT (and the insight in chockfull's post essentially defines the concept of CULT), it's all about enforcing social norms that serve the organization at the expense of the member (or follower if you still prefer). And yes, stubborn, stupid and abusive.
This latest installation of the caste system, the "Bible study coordinator" IMO arose because of the grass roots movement among the TWI followers to basically ignore the debt teaching and get home mortgages and student loans anyway. So many areas have nobody that was dumb enough to rent in bad areas of town just to have the title of fellowship coordinator. Or you would have basically 80% of the local remaining followers - the ones with roots in the community and kids in school - all of those types would have mortgages. Your basic follower living in civil disobedience to this hard-line mandate. But then there was nobody "qualified to lead", and the Corpse transient debt-less renters in bad areas of town would have to cover more and more fellowships as leaders. So this is their compromise. Let the 80% have a few of their own little get-togethers, but named differently.
The cult caste system has to label and put them in little, designated boxes......it helps the administrators, the BODummies, feel like they are making headway.
Same thing happened in 1995......after LCM inititated the "full-time corps" mandate. Some corps did not want to go full-time staff....they liked their careers and benefits/retirement package that it offered. Some corps didn't have the desire or drive to jump thru all the hoops that twi required to be full-time. SO......since they WERE corps grads, to label them "dropped from active corps" when they still wanted to be involved with twi [only at a lesser extent], martindale and co. devised the term "corps alumnus/alumni." See......these corps graduates were still "corps" but designated a notch lower, "corps alumni."
Looking back, it all seems so juvenile......like a high school cafeteria and who can/can't sit at your table.
So I ran into a TWIt a bit ago. They were explaining to me the new hierarchy in TWI. Besides the BOD, and the Corpse field leadership, we have a couple new classifications of leaders:
1. Household Fellowship Coordinators - for those with no debt
2. Bible Study Coordinators - for those with debt.
Apparently the hard-line stance TWI has taken against mortgages and student loans has intensified. All of the followers of TWI have been complaining about the debt policy for the last 10 years. <snip>
....."complaining about the debt policy for the last 10 years."
Complaining and murmuring that it's wrong.......and they still stay in twi? That is what some define as institutionalized......they just can't seem to break free from the onerous burdens that twi has heaped upon them, because their inner-core of respect, self-worth and determination has been systematically stripped from them.
Amazing !!
Those who WERE household fellowship coordinators and went ahead, against twi's debt-policy, to get a home mortgage anyway .......are dissenting and, basically, giving twi the middle finger on this issue. In other words, they are telling twi....."Go ahead, strip my authority to run those home fellowships, I just don't care anymore. My family and financial future and security is what's most important. And....you give every indication that you, the board of directors, are running roughshod over me."
The twi hierarchy does not listen to their followers.......or God.
Was just heading off to bed but thought I would check out the café and saw this topic. It's so, well, like something invented by folks who have been living in a vacuum for, well, decades maybe. Are we all just seeing through all the TWI BS because of our age/s or is TWI just plain getting that weird? Don't answer, the question was just redundant. Hey, thanks for the read, it was a hoot.
So I ran into a TWIt a bit ago. They were explaining to me the new hierarchy in TWI. Besides the BOD, and the Corpse field leadership, we have a couple new classifications of leaders:
1. Household Fellowship Coordinators - for those with no debt
2. Bible Study Coordinators - for those with debt.
Apparently the hard-line stance TWI has taken against mortgages and student loans has intensified. All of the followers of TWI have been complaining about the debt policy for the last 10 years. The BODummies response is this. Make a new layer in the caste system. Now tadaaa, we have a new lowest level of leadership in TWI.
What pray tell, would be the difference between these two classifications of people, you ask? Hmmm. Well, I guess one could coordinate the study of the Bible, but can't coordinate fellowship right? So one group you go to and you can study the Bible, but because they have a mortgage there isn't the same full sharing relationship? What's next - rules for how long you can hang out after fellowship? Joe, I'm sorry but it's 9:00pm. Since you're in a Bible study, not a fellowship, I'm afraid you're going to have to leave. You're welcome to read the Bible and sit in the meeting, but you can't really fully participate in the cookies because you have a mortgage.
Sheesh - you don't even have to go to a Westboro Baptist church for the service. You can experience all of the same ignorance and hate right in someone's home. And chip in $10 at the same time where $8 of it goes straight to the pope at HQ.
Aren't you so glad you have a new president? Making cutting edge rightly divided decisions like this? I mean with these decisions we should see the Way on the magazine covers of all the Christian periodicals as the fastest growing church in the world, right?
Chockfull, quite frankly it's no one's business but mine, if I'm in debt or not. TWI is so is full of dreck!
yeah, awesome right? I'm not sure how new this is, I think at least a year old. It does all boil down to a BOD that is clueless and unable to admit they are wrong. We had something similar about 10 years ago when we were pressured to make smaller fellowship sizes and more fellowships. It was supposed to improve retention by giving people more individualized attention. With the no-debt policy ("we don't have a debt policy, we have a teaching from God's Word, and requirements to participate in certain programs..." yeah, yeah, shut up, it's a policy), we had not enough fellowship coordinator candidates to meet the new "more, smaller groups" mandate. This led to the invention in some areas of the "Fellowship Contact", a person who was the de facto fellowship coordinator but without the title. The branch coordinator was supposed to be the real coordinator, giving them extra attention, because they didn't have a real coordinator. I always hated that and treated them like the rest of the hfc's. Back then I still thought it would work itself out - they would see the problem and fix it. I was wrong of course.
Recently, I was talking to my mom about this Bible Study/Fellowship distinction. She told me one of them - I think the Bible Study - was supposed to be more outreach focused while the other was more in-depth in the Word. I might be flipping it, but it seemed silly. "Oh, so you guys aren't focused on outreach now?" "No, no, we still do outreach." "Well, what's the distinction? What do they do that you don't do, and visa versa?" Never really got anywhere on that. They are still trying really hard to figure out how to "move the Word". It must be discouraging and confusing to believe the Word IS over the World, and this here now is what prevailing looks like. Nobody wants what they are peddling.
More garbage from TWI. Who thinks all this s--t up? It doesn't make any sense to me at all!
What a total load of bullocks. How much more inventive can TWI be, in belittling people?
Most everyone you meet has a debt - a mortgage - that they are working to pay off. It's cheaper than renting, often. (Even though my mortgage is quite a lot of money, it would be nearly twice as much to rent a similar place - and I couldn't rent anywhere remotely habitable for what I pay in mortgage... a grotty bedsit, maybe?) (Actually, I couldn't even afford to rent a place!!)
Debt has risks, true, but there are risks in not having debts. Much better to help people think about their money in a proper manner, learn to budget properly, and work out the best way to borrow if there is really no other way.
My church hosts a Christians Against Poverty debt centre to help people in debt. Helps them manage finances, gives them a compassionate hand up when they're crushed by debt, sets up debt plans and even bankruptcy (so as to give a fresh start). Isn't that a better way to encourage people with debt - rather than beat them over the head with Bible verses? And the gentle compassionate approach - guess what! - leads some people to choose to become very thankful Christians.
Twinky, sounds like a church that I would attend if I could! How come TWI never did this??!!
Good article on rationalizing mistakes – thanks for that link Bolshevik !!!
The article reminded me of how much the TWI mindset is geared toward masking cognitive dissonance – or how to explain away the issues when TWI beliefs come in contact with reality. We were encouraged to base financial decisions on ideas like “putting the word first” – things put forth in “Christians Should Be Prosperous”, teachings on the law of believing or other nonsense that went along the lines of wishful thinking (ok – there, I said it). If you did not receive the desired results then obviously you deviated from the “sound principles” in TWI doctrine –you did something wrong.
Another thing is that life is complicated enough – without adding the impractical complexities of TWI doctrine that justify giving reality the cold shoulder. In my opinion, nothing does more to cloud one’s understanding of how things work than to navigate life’s journey based on TWI’s convoluted-treasure-hunt-map of life. At first, it was so scary for us applying for a home loan so soon after leaving TWI. But as we went through the process it got simpler and less stressful – it was one of those ah-yes-this-is-what-adults-do moments.
Another thing that bugs me about their “no debt” policy – it’s a rather dogmatic interpretation of Romans 13 owe no man anything but to love one another. Personally, I lean more toward the NIV translation of Rom.13: 8 - Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another...to me, this conveys the idea of being financially responsible to any debts you may have – and even though you eventually pay them off - you are still indebted to love one another.
Looking back - I guess I am also suspicious of leadership’s motivation in pushing “no-debt”. I remember a line of thought that stuck with me after I got off the WOW field – something like you should be ready to move in 24 hours – I got it from somewhere – maybe a teaching of vp’s – I don’t know….I remember another “gem” – to travel fast and far in this ministry you have to travel light… Anyway, I think those “gems” really helped leaders persuade folks to go WOW, Corps, to go into other programs, or even just move to another part of town to open a fellowship there - since they were not tied down with any financial responsibilities. Hopefully the old clunker held together by Way bumper stickers would get them there safe and sound…And just think of all that money people waste in home ownership – with repairs and improvements – when that money could go to TWI of course!
God forbid that individuals have money in the bank for IRS's, Stocks, Savings, ect.!!
So I ran into a TWIt a bit ago. They were explaining to me the new hierarchy in TWI. Besides the BOD, and the Corpse field leadership, we have a couple new classifications of leaders:
1. Household Fellowship Coordinators - for those with no debt
2. Bible Study Coordinators - for those with debt.
Apparently the hard-line stance TWI has taken against mortgages and student loans has intensified. All of the followers of TWI have been complaining about the debt policy for the last 10 years. The BODummies response is this. Make a new layer in the caste system. Now tadaaa, we have a new lowest level of leadership in TWI.
I had forgotten about this new depth of pharisaic-rule.......until Grace bumped this thread.
Seems that this putrid policy of the last 10 years has been stirring up the beehive.......wasn't this near the top of the list for that R&R group? The debt policy is wreaking havoc because it is tweaked as a control tactic of this cult. From practical to doctrine error, it is now being thrust into a whole new level of bureaucratic idiocy.
Institutionalized conditioning. This cult stuff reminds me of the movie, The Shawshank Redemption.....and Brooks, for good behavior, got to oversee the prison library. He was given certain "liberties" because he conformed to the institutionalized lifestyle with no dissent.
Coordinator this, Coordinator that..........All administrative bullsheet to give the appearance of activity, yet detrimental, demeaning and destructive.
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Bolshevik
This is just for debt?
To run a fellowship or bible study your finances need to be public record?
Would there be a legal reason for that?
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shortfuse
yeah, awesome right? I'm not sure how new this is, I think at least a year old. It does all boil down to a BOD that is clueless and unable to admit they are wrong. We had something similar about 10 years ago when we were pressured to make smaller fellowship sizes and more fellowships. It was supposed to improve retention by giving people more individualized attention. With the no-debt policy ("we don't have a debt policy, we have a teaching from God's Word, and requirements to participate in certain programs..." yeah, yeah, shut up, it's a policy), we had not enough fellowship coordinator candidates to meet the new "more, smaller groups" mandate. This led to the invention in some areas of the "Fellowship Contact", a person who was the de facto fellowship coordinator but without the title. The branch coordinator was supposed to be the real coordinator, giving them extra attention, because they didn't have a real coordinator. I always hated that and treated them like the rest of the hfc's. Back then I still thought it would work itself out - they would see the problem and fix it. I was wrong of course.
Recently, I was talking to my mom about this Bible Study/Fellowship distinction. She told me one of them - I think the Bible Study - was supposed to be more outreach focused while the other was more in-depth in the Word. I might be flipping it, but it seemed silly. "Oh, so you guys aren't focused on outreach now?" "No, no, we still do outreach." "Well, what's the distinction? What do they do that you don't do, and visa versa?" Never really got anywhere on that. They are still trying really hard to figure out how to "move the Word". It must be discouraging and confusing to believe the Word IS over the World, and this here now is what prevailing looks like. Nobody wants what they are peddling.
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skyrider
The new hierarchy in twi is running on fumes. Just more bureaucratic bullsheet......it keeps extending "job titles" to encourage involvement.
Back in the early '80s, this is what was happening during Tom Kn-upp's tenure in overseeing Zaire, Africa.......those involved were continually seeking designated titles that gave them a leg-up over their peers. In oppressed societies, like Zaire.....followers seemed to relish having designated power that others around them did not have. Therefore, as the twig fellowships swelled to 40-60 people.....all kinds of titles where initiated to give the coordinator an inner-circle of "go-fers" to get things done. Heck, being a designated greeter was a big deal.
Twi's debt-policy has to go thru all kinds of contortions to stay viable.
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Bolshevik
no no. They ARE making progress. No good comes with haste.
What they are doing is softening the ground for planting seed in people's minds.
It takes a lot of effort. And a long time before results are visible.
A long, long time.
Like, long long after anyone who notices is gone kind of time frame. Believe.
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Twinky
What a total load of bullocks. How much more inventive can TWI be, in belittling people?
Most everyone you meet has a debt - a mortgage - that they are working to pay off. It's cheaper than renting, often. (Even though my mortgage is quite a lot of money, it would be nearly twice as much to rent a similar place - and I couldn't rent anywhere remotely habitable for what I pay in mortgage... a grotty bedsit, maybe?) (Actually, I couldn't even afford to rent a place!!)
Debt has risks, true, but there are risks in not having debts. Much better to help people think about their money in a proper manner, learn to budget properly, and work out the best way to borrow if there is really no other way.
My church hosts a Christians Against Poverty debt centre to help people in debt. Helps them manage finances, gives them a compassionate hand up when they're crushed by debt, sets up debt plans and even bankruptcy (so as to give a fresh start). Isn't that a better way to encourage people with debt - rather than beat them over the head with Bible verses? And the gentle compassionate approach - guess what! - leads some people to choose to become very thankful Christians.
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skyrider
Yeah......why isn't twi TEACHING people to properly budget, borrow and leverage debt to their advantage? Could it be.....that they do NOT want to see people empowered and moving forward? Just seems that the more people advance in opportunities, careers, money-smarts, and life choices.......then, they exit twi altogether.
And, yeah.....a mortgage has some risks, but living in a rental apartment/home in a less-than-better side of town HAS RISKS.
And.....when that mortgage is paid off, happy days are here again. Woohoo !!
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Bolshevik
Just remember everyone's situation is different.
Use this "Rent or Buy?" Calculator LINK
Then you can decide how well you've managed
yourGod's money.If you still can't make a decision on that, just remember there is always THIS
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skyrider
And.......that's the beauty of it. You decide -- I decide. Win/Win
Much better than a distant authoritarian mandating the rules.
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Rocky
The article on the Neuroscience of Rationalization is exquisitely brilliant. Thanks for that Bolshevik.
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T-Bone
Good article on rationalizing mistakes – thanks for that link Bolshevik !!!
The article reminded me of how much the TWI mindset is geared toward masking cognitive dissonance – or how to explain away the issues when TWI beliefs come in contact with reality. We were encouraged to base financial decisions on ideas like “putting the word first” – things put forth in “Christians Should Be Prosperous”, teachings on the law of believing or other nonsense that went along the lines of wishful thinking (ok – there, I said it). If you did not receive the desired results then obviously you deviated from the “sound principles” in TWI doctrine – you did something wrong.
Another thing is that life is complicated enough – without adding the impractical complexities of TWI doctrine that justify giving reality the cold shoulder. In my opinion, nothing does more to cloud one’s understanding of how things work than to navigate life’s journey based on TWI’s convoluted-treasure-hunt-map of life. At first, it was so scary for us applying for a home loan so soon after leaving TWI. But as we went through the process it got simpler and less stressful – it was one of those ah-yes-this-is-what-adults-do moments.
Another thing that bugs me about their “no debt” policy – it’s a rather dogmatic interpretation of Romans 13 owe no man anything but to love one another. Personally, I lean more toward the NIV translation of Rom.13: 8 - Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another...to me, this conveys the idea of being financially responsible to any debts you may have – and even though you eventually pay them off - you are still indebted to love one another.
Looking back - I guess I am also suspicious of leadership’s motivation in pushing “no-debt”. I remember a line of thought that stuck with me after I got off the WOW field – something like you should be ready to move in 24 hours – I got it from somewhere – maybe a teaching of vp’s – I don’t know….I remember another “gem” – to travel fast and far in this ministry you have to travel light… Anyway, I think those “gems” really helped leaders persuade folks to go WOW, Corps, to go into other programs, or even just move to another part of town to open a fellowship there - since they were not tied down with any financial responsibilities. Hopefully the old clunker held together by Way bumper stickers would get them there safe and sound…And just think of all that money people waste in home ownership – with repairs and improvements – when that money could go to TWI of course!
Edited by T-Boneclarification
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skyrider
Thanks, T-Bone......that NIV translation seems to fit better.
And.....yeah, "you should be ready to move in 24 hours" type-of-indoctrination. I've always considered twi's debt-policy "a coercive-contortionist exercise that only enables twi to exert its control over corps/followers." Back in 1981, The Way Credit Union sanctioned home mortgages and car loans thru the credit union.....only the LATER backtrack and started instituting the debt-policy. Why did hq-staffers get favored status to go ahead and get mortgages (yeah, I'm looking at you, Linder.....and Rowe, and B. Mason.....those security guys, to name a few) while field corps were NOT allowed? Just seemed to me that those annual corps placement meetings were a real dud when more and more corps were locked into a home mortgage and all.
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chockfull
Yes many modern churches have a similar approach. Many like the works of Dave Ramsey and utilize them as teaching materials for any who are interested. This you could categorize as a loving godly approach.
TWI has a debt policy. Their view of people who have any kind of debt is that they are milk Christians who can't digest the meat of the Word, therefore they have a policy that people aren't able to take their Advanced Class until they have no debt. They can't be fellowship coordinators, they can't go way disciple, they can't go into the Corps. They also lie about this, saying they don't have a debt policy, they have a teaching from the Bible and requirements for classes or programs. This is a lie. It is a policy. Otherwise, why would they restrict entry into any advanced training or leadership program tied to it?
How closed-minded are they about this? Well, I personally know of more than one time that it was brought up at top leadership placement meetings in general discussions with the BODummies, and then immediately shut down. What I mean by shut down is that the topic was closed for discussion in an open mic session immediately. I also know of a Corps person who did a good deal of research on the topic, and sent it in presenting it in a very loving and non-confrontational way. The intent of the paper was to try and get the thickheaded BOD to soften the stance and the policy, more like the Bible's approach. This individual was dropped from the Corps and kicked out of the ministry for basically presenting the research. The same kind of vicious response from top leadership as you see with what's his face presenting the paper on adultery.
TWI has a debt policy. And vicious reactions to people who try to show them from the scriptures anything to soften their hard line stance. They purport to be a ministry with Biblical research in the title, yet they close their minds to the scriptures teachings and approaches.
This latest installation of the caste system, the "Bible study coordinator" IMO arose because of the grass roots movement among the TWI followers to basically ignore the debt teaching and get home mortgages and student loans anyway. So many areas have nobody that was dumb enough to rent in bad areas of town just to have the title of fellowship coordinator. Or you would have basically 80% of the local remaining followers - the ones with roots in the community and kids in school - all of those types would have mortgages. Your basic follower living in civil disobedience to this hard-line mandate. But then there was nobody "qualified to lead", and the Corpse transient debt-less renters in bad areas of town would have to cover more and more fellowships as leaders. So this is their compromise. Let the 80% have a few of their own little get-togethers, but named differently.
Stubborn, stupid, and abusive.
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waysider
How does leadership decide who's going to sit at the *"kids' table"?
*(Fellowship with lesser credentialed leader)
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shortfuse
Honestly, I think it's geographical. If there is no one in an area that can do a "real" fellowship, then someone will do a Bible Study.
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Rocky
The writer of the research paper apparently didn't grasp the purpose of the debt policy, thinking that the organization held to biblical scholarship above all else. Silly, naive youngster. Reminds me of Romans 5:3-4.
"Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope."
My PI: we aren't discouraged by the lessons from the school of hard knocks because we know that's how we learn life's lessons and build character and patience.
From the perspective of the CULT (and the insight in chockfull's post essentially defines the concept of CULT), it's all about enforcing social norms that serve the organization at the expense of the member (or follower if you still prefer). And yes, stubborn, stupid and abusive.
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skyrider
The cult caste system has to label and put them in little, designated boxes......it helps the administrators, the BODummies, feel like they are making headway.
Same thing happened in 1995......after LCM inititated the "full-time corps" mandate. Some corps did not want to go full-time staff....they liked their careers and benefits/retirement package that it offered. Some corps didn't have the desire or drive to jump thru all the hoops that twi required to be full-time. SO......since they WERE corps grads, to label them "dropped from active corps" when they still wanted to be involved with twi [only at a lesser extent], martindale and co. devised the term "corps alumnus/alumni." See......these corps graduates were still "corps" but designated a notch lower, "corps alumni."
Looking back, it all seems so juvenile......like a high school cafeteria and who can/can't sit at your table.
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T-Bone
wish somebody would start a food fight
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skyrider
....."complaining about the debt policy for the last 10 years."
Complaining and murmuring that it's wrong.......and they still stay in twi? That is what some define as institutionalized......they just can't seem to break free from the onerous burdens that twi has heaped upon them, because their inner-core of respect, self-worth and determination has been systematically stripped from them.
Amazing !!
Those who WERE household fellowship coordinators and went ahead, against twi's debt-policy, to get a home mortgage anyway .......are dissenting and, basically, giving twi the middle finger on this issue. In other words, they are telling twi....."Go ahead, strip my authority to run those home fellowships, I just don't care anymore. My family and financial future and security is what's most important. And....you give every indication that you, the board of directors, are running roughshod over me."
The twi hierarchy does not listen to their followers.......or God.
Get out........NOW.
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MRAP
Was just heading off to bed but thought I would check out the café and saw this topic. It's so, well, like something invented by folks who have been living in a vacuum for, well, decades maybe. Are we all just seeing through all the TWI BS because of our age/s or is TWI just plain getting that weird? Don't answer, the question was just redundant. Hey, thanks for the read, it was a hoot.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chockfull, quite frankly it's no one's business but mine, if I'm in debt or not. TWI is so is full of dreck!
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Grace Valerie Claire
More garbage from TWI. Who thinks all this s--t up? It doesn't make any sense to me at all!
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Grace Valerie Claire
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Grace Valerie Claire
God forbid that individuals have money in the bank for IRS's, Stocks, Savings, ect.!!
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skyrider
I had forgotten about this new depth of pharisaic-rule.......until Grace bumped this thread.
Seems that this putrid policy of the last 10 years has been stirring up the beehive.......wasn't this near the top of the list for that R&R group? The debt policy is wreaking havoc because it is tweaked as a control tactic of this cult. From practical to doctrine error, it is now being thrust into a whole new level of bureaucratic idiocy.
Institutionalized conditioning. This cult stuff reminds me of the movie, The Shawshank Redemption.....and Brooks, for good behavior, got to oversee the prison library. He was given certain "liberties" because he conformed to the institutionalized lifestyle with no dissent.
Coordinator this, Coordinator that..........All administrative bullsheet to give the appearance of activity, yet detrimental, demeaning and destructive.
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