The Way's facebook group is increasing and people are joining. The whitewash tactic works. They have a new vanilla class. They have their history hidden. They have their positions secured.
There are only a few small pockets where people tell the truth. Like here.
An Insidious Plan..........(proceeding in a gradual, subtle way; intending to entrap and harm)
Where spiritual abuse intersects with multi-level marketing scams
People are disposable......keep payroll and any "retirement pensions" at minimum levels
Whitewash the history......and laud programs and classes with International wayspeak
Love-bomb the newbies with all the "benefits" to their biblical research
Keep polishing the bannisters and manicuring the grass.....newbies won't see deception
Entrap them in dependency to commit/give to the cult (gain access to their wallets)
Generic website and way magazines......all information and contact lists centrally controlled
The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.
Until the Way leadership repents and apologizes for it's sins, sins either by commission or omission, then I will have nothing more to do with them. I believe Dr. Weirwille did teach the Truth to the best of his ability and certainly challenged each of us to prove the scriptures for ourselves. He said the Way never makes anybody leave, just anybody. Well, the homophobic, self righteous bastard that followed him certainly dispelled that myth. I had a very long talk with Wanda Weirwille right after everything came out about the sex scenes. She openly admitted it was happening, unlike any of those in leadership positions. I told her I care about TWI but I can't stand in support of what leadership was doing behind closed doors. Teaching one thing and doing another is NOT okay, it's hypocritical at best and insidious. Letting the Devil in even a little bit means you've lost any legitimacy you might have ever had. I'm sorry but I don't see anywhere in the Word that it's ok to lead a double life, nor is it ok to yell at and berate people. Being especially good to those of the household of faith means you have to actually BE that! What Martindale did and the rest of them, and yes, even VPW is not something that is tolerable in least sense. Excusing it is even worse. I entered the Way when I was completely lost. I was healed by the Word. I thought we were surrounded by good men and women. I never put my faith in man, my faith is and always remained having my faith in God. I believe we were taught more Truth than any other organization on the planet, and I still believe that to be true. There were faults that crept in, having superiority complexes for a start, perpetuated over and over again, especially by Craig Martindale. Of course VPW did that as well, anyone born again is of the household of faith, not those just in the Way. It always bothered me the title bestowed on VPW. The father in the word was damn near blasphemy! God is our Father, not VPW. This among other things let the fox into the henhouse so to speak. The I can sleep with any number of women I want was another one. Even if God hadn't changed, old testament people having multiple wives, that's fine, but they weren't teaching that NOR were they taking in multiple wives. The sex club was out of bounds for anything God ever said was ok. The homophobia and purging after VPW died is also against God's Word. NO one has any scripture saying you kick "sinners" out to the curb. That goes against everything Jesus did and taught his disciples to do and nowhere does God allow that. There is a specific instance where God says to hand someone over to the adversary. But, if that's what they were justifying what did upon they were dead wrong. That scripture deals with disruptive people who are inside causing trouble and being disruptive to the body. That's not why they were throwing people out on their foot. Tbey were throwing anyone out who dared to question them about anything. Or who they believed were somehow a threat, like gay people, who news flash, are usually some of the least troublesome people you'd ever meet. I don't know their heads got so big they thought they were doing God's work. Except as I said, you give the Devil an inch and he will steal, kill and destroy everything of God. You can't serve two masters. You can claim to be serving one, but if you're serving the other then you're not serving one. You can't teach people one thing and do another and call yourself serving God. Mistakes and sins can be forgiven, but purposely lying and covering up a double life doesn't leave time to serve God. Now, if they had come out and said this is what we are doing and here is what God says about and why it's ok, and research had been done proving they are living a life decent and in order according to God's Word, then we would have had a starting point to start figuring out if they were telling us Truth. But, of course they couldn't, so they chose to hide it behind closed doors until men and women decided enough already, and brought their double lives to light. Then, OMG, they had to purge people because God forbid anyone stand up to them with doctrine! Like John Shoengeit (spelling?) did with his research paper during a time the Research Ministry was, gasp, suspended. You can't call yourself one thing and refuse to do it. Martindale decided then we had to get back to basics. Basic what? Idolatry? Polishing the pedestal VPW was placed on? Basic what exactly? Isn't it basic scripture you were using to sleep with multiple women? Oh, NO, of course it wasn't. So how dare someone research to see if it's ok to be unfaithful to your wife/husband?! Then get thrown on his foot when his paper says, shocker, it's not ok. Anyone around during that time either knew it was happening or were part of it. So, anyone that remained after it was exposed was either supporting it directly or indirectly. I went one step further and recalled scripture not to believe anything against an elder except in the case of 2 or 3 witnesses. I got multiple witnesses before I ever saw Wanda Weirwille. So, until leadership apologizes for the wrong they did or supported and takes responsibility for the blatantly false doctrine perpetuated by all the leaders, our only Father being God, anyone born again in the household of faith etc. I just will support doctrinal and practical errors. They truly do owe a huge apology to everyone they hurt or continue to hurt because we all were hungry for the Truth, but the double lives and serving Satan at the head by perpetuating outright lies and not being repentent when confronted with the Truth, well, we are left with the only option left to us, hand them over to the adversary and walk away. Heartbroken and weeping, but necessary because God doesn't allow leaders and elders to live double lives and He is clear on what we are to do. Confront them with the Truth and with witnesses. We did, and they marked us and threw us out. Newsflash for them, they are the ones who were marked and thrown out, not us. It is more difficult to serve God now but God never said I'll make it simple and keep a ministry walking on my Word for you to have and support you. So, we do what we can and believe God regardless. But, new presidents with old ways are still unacceptable and if they stood on the Word, they can not stand with ministry committing blashphemy, or unapologetic for trying to destroy people's lives who were doing the right thing. I believe God taught Dr. Weirwille and I believe what he taught was mostly right, and taught with his understanding at the time. I don't know that anyone will ever be 100% right because we do not have perfect originals to go by. But, by revelation and a willingness to work the Word God can show us many things. Knowledge puffeth up, and it certainly did in the Way. It seems that leads to corruption as well. I don't know at what point that started, but I do think it was later rather than sooner. All I know is I learned how to work the word for myself and gained a lot of knowledge, some was blatantly wrong but most was as close to the Truth as I think we will ever come. It is a real shame leadership lost any meekness or humility and decided to walk away from God en masse, and remove peoole en masse. With a few changes God would have still blessed it and us as a group, but Satan got his grubby little hands involved and ruined it for everyone. I'm not sure they will ever come back from that, because they are choosing arrogance over humility.
I'm sure a lot of us are interested in what you wrote. Unfortunately, you submitted a "text-block" - a huge block of text that is hard to read comfortably. As a public service, I'm going to repost what you wrote, adding ONLY the spaces, so that we can read what you wrote comfortably. I will NOT change ONE WORD of your text-block.
Until the Way leadership repents and apologizes for it's sins, sins either by commission or omission, then I will have nothing more to do with them.
I believe Dr. Weirwille did teach the Truth to the best of his ability and certainly challenged each of us to prove the scriptures for ourselves.
He said the Way never makes anybody leave, just anybody. Well, the homophobic, self righteous bastard that followed him certainly dispelled that myth. I had a very long talk with Wanda Weirwille right after everything came out about the sex scenes. She openly admitted it was happening, unlike any of those in leadership positions. I told her I care about TWI but I can't stand in support of what leadership was doing behind closed doors. Teaching one thing and doing another is NOT okay, it's hypocritical at best and insidious. Letting the Devil in even a little bit means you've lost any legitimacy you might have ever had.
I'm sorry but I don't see anywhere in the Word that it's ok to lead a double life, nor is it ok to yell at and berate people. Being especially good to those of the household of faith means you have to actually BE that! What Martindale did and the rest of them, and yes, even VPW is not something that is tolerable in least sense. Excusing it is even worse.
I entered the Way when I was completely lost. I was healed by the Word. I thought we were surrounded by good men and women. I never put my faith in man, my faith is and always remained having my faith in God. I believe we were taught more Truth than any other organization on the planet, and I still believe that to be true.
There were faults that crept in, having superiority complexes for a start, perpetuated over and over again, especially by Craig Martindale. Of course VPW did that as well, anyone born again is of the household of faith, not those just in the Way.
It always bothered me the title bestowed on VPW. The father in the word was damn near blasphemy! God is our Father, not VPW.
This among other things let the fox into the henhouse so to speak. The I can sleep with any number of women I want was another one. Even if God hadn't changed, old testament people having multiple wives, that's fine, but they weren't teaching that NOR were they taking in multiple wives. The sex club was out of bounds for anything God ever said was ok.
The homophobia and purging after VPW died is also against God's Word. NO one has any scripture saying you kick "sinners" out to the curb. That goes against everything Jesus did and taught his disciples to do and nowhere does God allow that. There is a specific instance where God says to hand someone over to the adversary. But, if that's what they were justifying what did upon they were dead wrong. That scripture deals with disruptive people who are inside causing trouble and being disruptive to the body. That's not why they were throwing people out on their foot. Tbey were throwing anyone out who dared to question them about anything.
Or who they believed were somehow a threat, like gay people, who news flash, are usually some of the least troublesome people you'd ever meet. I don't know their heads got so big they thought they were doing God's work. Except as I said, you give the Devil an inch and he will steal, kill and destroy everything of God.
You can't serve two masters. You can claim to be serving one, but if you're serving the other then you're not serving one. You can't teach people one thing and do another and call yourself serving God. Mistakes and sins can be forgiven, but purposely lying and covering up a double life doesn't leave time to serve God.
Now, if they had come out and said this is what we are doing and here is what God says about and why it's ok, and research had been done proving they are living a life decent and in order according to God's Word, then we would have had a starting point to start figuring out if they were telling us Truth. But, of course they couldn't, so they chose to hide it behind closed doors until men and women decided enough already, and brought their double lives to light.
Then, OMG, they had to purge people because God forbid anyone stand up to them with doctrine! Like John Shoengeit (spelling?) did with his research paper during a time the Research Ministry was, gasp, suspended. You can't call yourself one thing and refuse to do it.
Martindale decided then we had to get back to basics. Basic what? Idolatry? Polishing the pedestal VPW was placed on? Basic what exactly? Isn't it basic scripture you were using to sleep with multiple women? Oh, NO, of course it wasn't. So how dare someone research to see if it's ok to be unfaithful to your wife/husband?! Then get thrown on his foot when his paper says, shocker, it's not ok.
Anyone around during that time either knew it was happening or were part of it. So, anyone that remained after it was exposed was either supporting it directly or indirectly. I went one step further and recalled scripture not to believe anything against an elder except in the case of 2 or 3 witnesses. I got multiple witnesses before I ever saw Wanda Weirwille.
So, until leadership apologizes for the wrong they did or supported and takes responsibility for the blatantly false doctrine perpetuated by all the leaders, our only Father being God, anyone born again in the household of faith etc. I just will support doctrinal and practical errors.
They truly do owe a huge apology to everyone they hurt or continue to hurt because we all were hungry for the Truth, but the double lives and serving Satan at the head by perpetuating outright lies and not being repentent when confronted with the Truth, well, we are left with the only option left to us, hand them over to the adversary and walk away. Heartbroken and weeping, but necessary because God doesn't allow leaders and elders to live double lives and He is clear on what we are to do. Confront them with the Truth and with witnesses. We did, and they marked us and threw us out. Newsflash for them, they are the ones who were marked and thrown out, not us.
It is more difficult to serve God now but God never said I'll make it simple and keep a ministry walking on my Word for you to have and support you. So, we do what we can and believe God regardless. But, new presidents with old ways are still unacceptable and if they stood on the Word, they can not stand with ministry committing blashphemy, or unapologetic for trying to destroy people's lives who were doing the right thing.
I believe God taught Dr. Weirwille and I believe what he taught was mostly right, and taught with his understanding at the time. I don't know that anyone will ever be 100% right because we do not have perfect originals to go by. But, by revelation and a willingness to work the Word God can show us many things.
Knowledge puffeth up, and it certainly did in the Way. It seems that leads to corruption as well.
I don't know at what point that started, but I do think it was later rather than sooner.
All I know is I learned how to work the word for myself and gained a lot of knowledge, some was blatantly wrong but most was as close to the Truth as I think we will ever come.
It is a real shame leadership lost any meekness or humility and decided to walk away from God en masse, and remove peoole en masse. With a few changes God would have still blessed it and us as a group, but Satan got his grubby little hands involved and ruined it for everyone. I'm not sure they will ever come back from that, because they are choosing arrogance over humility.
[You probably know that this messageboard (the GSC) exists "to tell the other side of the story." There's differences of opinions, and that's refreshing after the mental confines of parroting whatever twi insisted was the party line. So, there's Christians here (like me), and non-Christians, both of many varieties. I'm sure opinions about me from off this site sound like they're talking about 2 different people or more, depending on what the speakers care about. I'm "yes" on the Bible, but "no" on anything twi that doesn't connect to it, and I care about the truth, not making anyone happy. (That's enough to make friends and enemies for exactly the same reasons.) So, please keep in mind that I've done my best to try to learn what was true in twi, what was rumor, and so on, regardless of whether I WANTED to believe it or not. It's with that in mind that I reply to you, agreeing on some points and disagreeing on others. ]
[b[I agree with this:]]/b]
"Until the Way leadership repents and apologizes for it's sins, sins either by commission or omission, then I will have nothing more to do with them. "
[I'll go further and say we're separated for life because they will never change twi enough to make it something I'd seriously consider rejoining.]
"I believe Dr. Weirwille did teach the Truth to the best of his ability and certainly challenged each of us to prove the scriptures for ourselves."
[I think we were told to prove the Scriptures for ourselves, and that is correct and important. Unfortunately, I'm convinced- beyond any reasonable doubt- that wierwille ripped off the teaching styles and materials of others, and simply re-presented THEIR work, claiming it was his own. It doesn't appear that wierwille ever actually BELIEVED the Bible. In fact, he admitted that he'd completed his entire education for ministry, and had already begun his first year as a minister, before he'd ever believed the Bible was the Word of God. Removing that as a motive, it seems that he began as a minister because he could make a good presentation and make a comfortable living and get respect for doing it. All "his" best work can be traced directly to specific authors and teachers. vpw did that and did his best to make us think that it was all the results of HIS study and communication with God Almighty and nothing else. (He said he used the Bible as his textbook and workbook, period.) He made many claims, all designed to make it look like he had a special connection with God Almighty while hiding his sources of information. PRIVATELY, he said he'd heard from God, and claimed God gave him instructions all the time.
All of that having been said, I think we were actually taught a lot of truth DESPITE THAT. It was meant to ensnare us- and sometimes it did- but it was nevertheless TAUGHT.]
" He said the Way never makes anybody leave, just anybody." [He also said, of "the Zero Corps" that he "gave them the privilege of leaving." vpw was not above kicking people out PRIVATELY while claiming he NEVER did it. Yes, he was a hypocrite- moreso than most people, and unapologetic about it.]
"Well, the homophobic, self righteous bastard that followed him certainly dispelled that myth."
[The thing is, wierwille KNEW he was conning us, so he knew where to draw the line and when to silence the microphone. He trained lcm, making him two-fold the child of hell that he himself was. lcm was convinced vpw was serving God- so he didn't know it was all a con and that there was a time to shut up. Periodically, with the corps- and thus in private- vpw kicked out all of a corps class, then turn around and offer to let them return if they rededicated themselves to twi. This almost always worked, and vpw knew he could count on those drones that stayed. Later, lcm tried the same thing with people who were NOT the corps- and this resulted in people walking away and not looking back.
Yes, lcm was homophobic and self-righteous.... He was partly homophobic because he was a jock in college, and went straight from there into twi leadership full-time. He learned NOTHING in twi to dispel his attitudes, so they remained at a jock level. vpw's training of him never addressed that. It DID address self-righteousness. If anything, vpw MADE lcm self-righteous. vpw modeled the opposite of humility, and taught lcm accordingly. lcm was as much a victim of vpw as anyone else- which is why he made victims of others. Ever heard how abuse survivors often abuse others later in life? This worked the same way. vpw personally picked lcm. He did not choose him for any competency. He chose lcm because lcm never questioned vpw, but instead would have driven off a cliff at vpw's instruction. It's an awful reason to pick the leader of a Christian organization, but vpw gave that as his reason when asked once. Yes, lcm ruined many lives and has a LOT to answer for, and never went to prison despite committing crimes. However, that's NOT the whole story, so I feel a little bad for him among all this. Please consider that.]
"I had a very long talk with Wanda Weirwille right after everything came out about the sex scenes. She openly admitted it was happening, unlike any of those in leadership positions. I told her I care about TWI but I can't stand in support of what leadership was doing behind closed doors. Teaching one thing and doing another is NOT okay, it's hypocritical at best and insidious. Letting the Devil in even a little bit means you've lost any legitimacy you might have ever had. "
[I agree fully. vpw did it first, and taught lcm to do it. This does NOT EXCUSE lcm for doing it, he had free will and chose to do what he did. twi's "lockbox" doctrine- THEIR name, not mine- said to keep this sort of thing hush-hush, so vpw's victims were often silenced early on without further coercion. lcm participated fully in this, and bears responsibility for his own actions regardless of who taught him.]
"I'm sorry but I don't see anywhere in the Word that it's ok to lead a double life, nor is it ok to yell at and berate people. Being especially good to those of the household of faith means you have to actually BE that! What Martindale did and the rest of them, and yes, even VPW is not something that is tolerable in least sense. Excusing it is even worse."
[There's some who claim it's evil for us to expose what vpw and lcm did- but those same people are not outraged that they did it. To them, it's worse to expose vpw as a plagiarizing rapist who drugged women than for him to have drugged and raped the women. I'm NOT exaggerating.]
"I entered the Way when I was completely lost. I was healed by the Word. I thought we were surrounded by good men and women. I never put my faith in man, my faith is and always remained having my faith in God. "
[I'm with you there, but some people are not, and that's ok. They're free to disagree, and we ALL have a "right to be wrong". We all bear responsibility for our decisions, and, frankly, I prefer it that way.]
" I believe we were taught more Truth than any other organization on the planet, and I still believe that to be true. "
[Due to vpw plagiarizing some quality Christians, I believe we were taught some Truth while in twi, but not everything we were taught there was Truth or truth. Furthermore, there's plenty of quality Christians who've never heard of twi, vpw, or anyone connected with twi. vpw did his best to put forth that himself was some great one, that ALL the quality teachings he had were from him, and that all Christians everywhere else were flawed and INFERIOR to twi Christians. I believe all of that was error- to say the least. The idea that God wasn't relying solely on a plagiarizing rapist to get things done is rather comforting- and rather sensible, IMHO.]
"There were faults that crept in, having superiority complexes for a start, perpetuated over and over again, especially by Craig Martindale. Of course VPW did that as well, anyone born again is of the household of faith, not those just in the Way."
[For twi, that's awfully subversive. ;) Christians being equal is repugnant in twi and to twi. Yes, arrogance and superiority was taught in twi as a matter of course, and the top cadre- with vpw and lcm leading- were generally the worst at it.]
I'll reply to the rest later, but that's plenty for now. I hope you're well and are in touch with some Christians who won't do to you what twi did to us.
[I'm ready to reply to a little more. Let's see.....] [/b]
"It always bothered me the title bestowed on VPW. The father in the word was damn near blasphemy! God is our Father, not VPW."
[I never liked that one, and never used that one. vpw himself started that one as well as calling himself "The Teacher." (I didn't use that one, either.) vpw claimed that whoever spoke to you so you got saved was your "father in the word" (supposedly based on I Corinthians 4:15 "15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." After that, somehow, he changed that into HIMSELF, possibly by claiming it wasn't them, but whoever spoke to THEM and so on, with the chain ending with himself. I know there were still people speaking to that effect years after vpw died. If Ephesians 4:6 is correct in us being in unity in one Father, then claiming vpw or someone else is that (besides an obvious male parent) disunites us away from One God.]
"This among other things let the fox into the henhouse so to speak. The I can sleep with any number of women I want was another one. Even if God hadn't changed, old testament people having multiple wives, that's fine, but they weren't teaching that NOR were they taking in multiple wives. The sex club was out of bounds for anything God ever said was ok. "
["Technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king." vpw said that in pfal, but there was NO verse quoted for it, since the OT Law said the opposite. Then vpw quietly equated himself with "the king." vpw was trying to get people OK with that for a long time. In the 60s, when he hijacked the hippies, he'd gone to Haight-Ashbury looking for Christian hippies because he thought he'd found Christians who were ok with orgies. He pestered J1m D00p for specifics about what it was like to attend an orgy. (Jim had dropped in on one briefly, years before, and was thankful to be able to avoid them since then.) vpw then went on to tell JIm that orgies were OK with God. He said it was "available", and his spin on I Corinthians 7:1 ("Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man nottotouch awoman.") was that it meant that God permitted a man touching a woman because it said "good" but not "best", so vpw said that meant God was ok with it. Obviously, the rest of the chapter said otherwise, but what's another lie by that point? vpw spent years setting up the framework that allowed him to maximize the chances to molest and/or rape godly women. Yes, others were needed to keep that going, and some also partook of it.]
"The homophobia and purging after VPW died is also against God's Word. NO one has any scripture saying you kick "sinners" out to the curb. That goes against everything Jesus did and taught his disciples to do and nowhere does God allow that. There is a specific instance where God says to hand someone over to the adversary. But, if that's what they were justifying what did upon they were dead wrong. That scripture deals with disruptive people who are inside causing trouble and being disruptive to the body. That's not why they were throwing people out on their foot. Tbey were throwing anyone out who dared to question them about anything. "
[ All the "reasons" were PRETEXTS. They kicked out anyone who was inconvenient- which is what vpw did first. They followed suit, and kicked out anyone who made waves or looked like they MIGHT make waves. I agree with you both on what they did and why what they did was wrong.]
How important is it to "honor the fathers"? Those fathers in the faith who have affected our lives in some positive way, should be honored, shouldn't they? Not everything everyone does is good, and not everything they do is bad. We do not want to bless evil, and neither do we want to curse those things that are good, right?
I was just thinking about how much time we spent in the scripture at the cross of Jesus, in the PFAL class. Thinking back on my 60 + years of life, I can not recall anyone ever, taking me through so much time on the events of the life of Jesus, at the cross. Nobody ever did that with me that I can recall, other than VPW in that PFAL class. Did all that time at the cross have a positive benefit on our lives or not? Well how many people stood up when we were told to set our things aside, stand up, and speak in tongues? It was not at all uncommon for every new student to do exactly that.
I'm not saying that everything we were taught about those crucified with Christ was accurate. Today I don't believe as I was told back then, and did go along with. However, just thinking about how much time we spent on the events at the cross, is amazing. We really did hear about Christ and him crucified, right? Who has ever done that with us? Maybe some people have had that happen to them, before or since PFAL. I don't know, but I don't think it would be the majority.
I received the Holy Spirit with the manifestation of speaking in tongues, when I was reading a chapter out of one of his books that were a part of the class. which as I recall we had to purchase separately...long time ago to recall for me, but one of those small books had a very short chapter called "How To Speak In Tongues."
It was in PFAL, that I learned about where we got the scriptures. It was in PFAL that I received a respect and reverence for God. He really was with us in our meetings. Christ really was evident though us. through our lives, and the Holy Spirit actually was manifest among us. though the manifestations of the Spirit we functioned in. There was so much good in PFAL. Not everything in it was necessarily right on, but there was so, so, so much good and correct in it, right? Sure you know that's right. (VPW must have known the value of acknowledgement of the truth is. It's important. He knew how to draw that out of us, at times when we needed it.)
So I leave with this question to think about: How important is it to honor the fathers and mothers of the faith? (those who have taught us, and led us into the truth, and mentored us) Remember that it is those who honor the truth that can benefit from it, right? Now none of our teachers are the truth itself. Jesus is the truth, as well as the life, but every life has something to be honored, doesn't it? How have we been doing at that?
Interesting comment I read on "nostalgia ministry". I did hear about a nostalgia spirit that is not of God, that people were being warned about, many years ago.
As I recall, people were asked to commit to following LCM and if they did not, they were outed, being put on a black list, and from there anything anyone might have said about someone, might have been assumed to be true. If you have something against a brother, you are to go talk to him yourself first, then take one or two others. That sort of thing didn't happen as far as I could tell. I just can't see that we are supposed to promise that we will follow one leader or another. I don't see that in scripture anywhere. That in itself was the reason so many left. It's not the right thing to do. What ever happened to "Teach them the Word and let 'em go free."? Let's all learn from these things and do better.
Hi Raymo and welcome to Grease Spot. Hope you stick around and check some things out further.
I don’t mean to rain on your parade but thinking about my time of involvement in TWI, I now look at PFAL, and for that matter the WOW program, the Way Corpse program and even wierwille himself in a totally different light. While I will say I’ve learned some good stuff about the Bible and met many good people in TWI, it is a very troubling thing to consider the fact that wierwille unabashedly plagiarized the material in PFAL. That makes him a thief and a liar. Why did he do that? Maybe to use PFAL as bait to lure people into the bondage of his ministry. The Bible speaks of false teachers
wierwille’s plagiarism and why he did it so flagrantly makes me think of counterfeit money. Besides the fact that counterfeiting money is a crime, think of how it defrauds the recipient of something valuable - i.e. buying a genuine Rolex watch with counterfeit money...I don't think it's too far fetched to say that wierwille “bought” the respect and allegiance of folks by passing off PFAL as his own work.
You may be interested in a few other threads that tell the real TRUTH about wierwille:
How important is it to "honor the fathers"? Those fathers in the faith who have affected our lives in some positive way, should be honored, shouldn't they? Not everything everyone does is good, and not everything they do is bad. We do not want to bless evil, and neither do we want to curse those things that are good, right?
I was just thinking about how much time we spent in the scripture at the cross of Jesus, in the PFAL class. Thinking back on my 60 + years of life, I can not recall anyone ever, taking me through so much time on the events of the life of Jesus, at the cross. Nobody ever did that with me that I can recall, other than VPW in that PFAL class. Did all that time at the cross have a positive benefit on our lives or not? Well how many people stood up when we were told to set our things aside, stand up, and speak in tongues? It was not at all uncommon for every new student to do exactly that.
I'm not saying that everything we were taught about those crucified with Christ was accurate. Today I don't believe as I was told back then, and did go along with. However, just thinking about how much time we spent on the events at the cross, is amazing. We really did hear about Christ and him crucified, right? Who has ever done that with us? Maybe some people have had that happen to them, before or since PFAL. I don't know, but I don't think it would be the majority.
I received the Holy Spirit with the manifestation of speaking in tongues, when I was reading a chapter out of one of his books that were a part of the class. which as I recall we had to purchase separately...long time ago to recall for me, but one of those small books had a very short chapter called "How To Speak In Tongues."
It was in PFAL, that I learned about where we got the scriptures. It was in PFAL that I received a respect and reverence for God. He really was with us in our meetings. Christ really was evident though us. through our lives, and the Holy Spirit actually was manifest among us. though the manifestations of the Spirit we functioned in. There was so much good in PFAL. Not everything in it was necessarily right on, but there was so, so, so much good and correct in it, right? Sure you know that's right. (VPW must have known the value of acknowledgement of the truth is. It's important. He knew how to draw that out of us, at times when we needed it.)
So I leave with this question to think about: How important is it to honor the fathers and mothers of the faith? (those who have taught us, and led us into the truth, and mentored us) Remember that it is those who honor the truth that can benefit from it, right? Now none of our teachers are the truth itself. Jesus is the truth, as well as the life, but every life has something to be honored, doesn't it? How have we been doing at that?
I would wonder, Raymo, if you by chance might be able to show us chapter and verse what God might have said to us in the Bible about how important it is in the grand scheme of things.
According to vpw, it wasn't really important to even know the names of "the fathers and mothers of the faith". He mentioned a few, and a lot of them were never even named in passing. We heard more about his brother Reuben than we did about, say, Martin Luther, and we never HEARD of Zwingli. So, vpw thought they didn't count as long as they weren't actually IN twi.
According to vpw, it wasn't really important to even know the names of "the fathers and mothers of the faith". He mentioned a few, and a lot of them were never even named in passing. We heard more about his brother Reuben than we did about, say, Martin Luther, and we never HEARD of Zwingli. So, vpw thought they didn't count as long as they weren't actually IN twi.
I’m NOT surprised vpw gave little or no attention to anyone of note in theology. That goes along with his failing to give credit to all the sources he plagiarized. It’s like he was aspiring to become the unannounced gatekeeper for understanding the Bible. I think for many TWI followers he was just that.
Raymo speaks of how much time in PFAL we spent talking about the cross. Except for 4 crucified section, very little was on the cross. More time was Wierwille talking about holy spirit
How important is it to "honor the fathers"? Those fathers in the faith who have affected our lives in some positive way, should be honored, shouldn't they? Not everything everyone does is good, and not everything they do is bad. We do not want to bless evil, and neither do we want to curse those things that are good, right?
I was just thinking about how much time we spent in the scripture at the cross of Jesus, in the PFAL class. Thinking back on my 60 + years of life, I can not recall anyone ever, taking me through so much time on the events of the life of Jesus, at the cross. Nobody ever did that with me that I can recall, other than VPW in that PFAL class. Did all that time at the cross have a positive benefit on our lives or not? Well how many people stood up when we were told to set our things aside, stand up, and speak in tongues? It was not at all uncommon for every new student to do exactly that.
I'm not saying that everything we were taught about those crucified with Christ was accurate. Today I don't believe as I was told back then, and did go along with. However, just thinking about how much time we spent on the events at the cross, is amazing. We really did hear about Christ and him crucified, right? Who has ever done that with us? Maybe some people have had that happen to them, before or since PFAL. I don't know, but I don't think it would be the majority.
I received the Holy Spirit with the manifestation of speaking in tongues, when I was reading a chapter out of one of his books that were a part of the class. which as I recall we had to purchase separately...long time ago to recall for me, but one of those small books had a very short chapter called "How To Speak In Tongues."
It was in PFAL, that I learned about where we got the scriptures. It was in PFAL that I received a respect and reverence for God. He really was with us in our meetings. Christ really was evident though us. through our lives, and the Holy Spirit actually was manifest among us. though the manifestations of the Spirit we functioned in. There was so much good in PFAL. Not everything in it was necessarily right on, but there was so, so, so much good and correct in it, right? Sure you know that's right. (VPW must have known the value of acknowledgement of the truth is. It's important. He knew how to draw that out of us, at times when we needed it.)
So I leave with this question to think about: How important is it to honor the fathers and mothers of the faith? (those who have taught us, and led us into the truth, and mentored us) Remember that it is those who honor the truth that can benefit from it, right? Now none of our teachers are the truth itself. Jesus is the truth, as well as the life, but every life has something to be honored, doesn't it? How have we been doing at that?
Hi - couple thoughts...
i Timothy 5 gives some good broad strokes as to how we should treat each other in the church - it starts out with this guidance... "Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
When you say honor the "fathers" you seem to be talking about elders in the church - <quote> "Those fathers in the faith who have affected our lives in some positive way, should be honored..."
I'd point you to Timothy 5 for that as a good starting point. And the answer is yes but more importantly and this is very important - to not think of ourselves (or anyone else) more highly than we should - Romans 12:3: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
If your point is to ask the question, "How are you at honoring Dr. Weirwille who taught the Bible in PFAL", I can only answer for myself but I would also advise others accordingly in regards to anyone who teaches them anything ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO TEACH THE BIBLE thusly:
When it comes to God, the Bible and the things of God which includes first and foremost His people, show great respect and honor to God first, His son Jesus Christ His "logos" as well as the Bible and to everyone, especially my brethren in Christ and those who dedicate themselves to God and the care of His people.
Remember too that the commandment of promise, to honor our mothers and fathers, places parents who raise their children in the faith of God as second in the chain of authority - first God, then parents then others. Parental authority can include others too but let's not muddy the waters to say it isn't first intended as a familial parent-child relationship which defines any aspect of a similar relationship of authority.
The exercise for many people is to NOT OVER - HONOR those who teach and care for the church. Just as a child can become over dependent on a parent and never become an individual even when they are taught and raised to become such, a member of the church can become reliant on someone else to lead them and decide for them and in so doing subvert God's desire to have a living growing relationship with them.
In the same way a "father or mother" can deliberately create conditions that keep their children dependent on them, and unable to live and contribute as an individual.
One of Dr. Weirwille's weaknesses was his own need to be accepted and affirmed. I would content that while many of his programs and ideas were good, many of them had components to keep the participants close to home, tied to his chain of command and needing to continually validate his authority and actions. I say that having been a participant in most if not all of The Way's classes, courses, programs and roles. He needed everyone to come in once a year or more so that he could keep the hub of everyone's lives in and at the Way Nash in Ohio. Rather than train, develop and release leaders to the work of God and Christ, he built a network of paid and volunteer members and participants who answered through a chain of command to himself.
Of course it grew out of that and to a great degree the failure of the organization of the Way as a functional business and means of outreach for the original teaching ministry it was based on and grew from was due to it being built to work with one man, one authority at the center. When that one man/central authority broke down as it always will, it failed.
So I have good memories of the Farm, the pond, the woods, many of the people and he various campuses and places where we worked and spent time, and I do revere God's Word. I would not teach what's in PFAL the same way, and I'd change some of the material based on how I understand the texts and theory it's based on. So I can honor Dr. Weirwille's teaching of the Bible but because he built so much of the Way around himself, his family, his heritage and his history I saw him really hold the whole thing back. People celebrate it today and say "look at what he did" and I'll credit that to an extent but knowing what I do today I'm not going to lead my own efforts with "Dr. Weirwille, The Teacher", because it adds unnecessary baggage to the message of Christ which I personally saw act as an anchor to the long term effort. Some say his unique blend of rebellious and angry personality served a greater purpose. I think it kept him inward faced, in Ohio where he built his ministry in his own likeness.
In the same way, people then might say "WELL! You sure did get real smart didn't you? Boy, you sure did get smart!" sarcastically. And my answer to that is - I was 18, 20, 25 then - did I get smarter in the last 50 years?.....YOU BET YOUR ASS I DID.
As I recall, people were asked to commit to following LCM and if they did not, they were outed, being put on a black list, and from there anything anyone might have said about someone, might have been assumed to be true. If you have something against a brother, you are to go talk to him yourself first, then take one or two others. That sort of thing didn't happen as far as I could tell. I just can't see that we are supposed to promise that we will follow one leader or another. I don't see that in scripture anywhere. That in itself was the reason so many left. It's not the right thing to do. What ever happened to "Teach them the Word and let 'em go free."? Let's all learn from these things and do better.
Hi - Craig learned that from Dr. Weirwille. VPW fully expected everyone to follow his plans and decision, as the Way was "his" ministry and he was president and founder. If you didnt' want to support him as such he'd kick you out, fire you, terminate you. Monstrous lies circulated about those people in the following months and years. It wasn't that Craig invented being an asz hole - he had lots of mentoring.
to honor our mothers and fathers, places parents who raise their children in the faith of God as second in the chain of authority - first God, then parents then others.
I thought my parents were important too. Wonderful examples, both, of Christian love and support and selfless service to others, including respect and care for their own elders, taught to me and still carried on by me.
I never understood why the "Wierwille family" was so important - and why TWI attempted to teach me that my own family was less to be respected and honoured. It didn't seem right at the time, and it never became "right" in my eyes. I'm jolly sure it wasn't right in God's eyes. If nothing else, they should have been honoured as brothers and sisters in the faith. Instead, my mother was significantly dishonoured by my then "twig leader" (who I think has now repented of his thuggishness under TWI).
Praise the Lord, I'm now a part of the wider Christian community, where others, especially older folk, are embraced, honoured, respected, and treated with courtesy.
Raymo speaks of how much time in PFAL we spent talking about the cross. Except for 4 crucified section, very little was on the cross. More time was Wierwille talking about holy spirit
FOUR sessions on holy spirit (9-12). Everything on the cross was on how everyone else is wrong on minutiae of the crucifixion. As has been said before, if you're more focused on the crosses on the side than the one in the middle, your focus is off. Bullinger's work was used to foster an arrogance that Bullinger himself didn't push.
As I recall, people were asked to commit to following LCM and if they did not, they were outed, being put on a black list, and from there anything anyone might have said about someone, might have been assumed to be true. If you have something against a brother, you are to go talk to him yourself first, then take one or two others. That sort of thing didn't happen as far as I could tell. I just can't see that we are supposed to promise that we will follow one leader or another. I don't see that in scripture anywhere. That in itself was the reason so many left. It's not the right thing to do. What ever happened to "Teach them the Word and let 'em go free."? Let's all learn from these things and do better.
You recall correctly. lcm learned from vpw that you could suddenly just demand people's loyalty and kick them out if they didn't play along. vpw KNEW this was all a con, so he waited until he had the corps aside privately, then upped the ante with peer pressure and other pressures when he kicked entire corps classes out- then the next day offered to let them return if they pledged their loyalty (while basically admitting THEY did something WRONG and that's why they were dumped). On the other hand, lcm really thought this was of God, so he was sincere when he tried to do the same thing to the rank-and-file. In fact, he straight out demanded people specify they were to follow him personally and to neither pick geer, nor to say that we're not supposed to choose among men- specifying that he refused to accept "I stand with God" as a valid answer. Any leader who didn't immediately fall in line was kicked out abruptly.
The letter that told NY State of the firings-by name- of pretty much all the existing leadership accused all of them of following their bellies and trying to deceive us. It was the same letter sent to other states, with only the names of the fired ones swapped. Yes, virtually all the believers left WITH them. I made sure by going to the following ROA, where I saw things for myself and went to the bookstore one last time. Having had a chance to see both sides, it was clear one was way off and the other did not appear to be- at least to a casual inspection and to all the accusations made about them.
BTW, I don't know where you heard "let 'em go free" from. vpw wanted to keep everybody in and tithing and buying everything. We weren't supposed to just "cut bait"- we were supposed to keep retention up, and to get more new people. It's the reason the only "professional" training the corps actually got was the Dale Carnegie course on SALES. The highest priority to vpw to train in his program was to train the attendees to be good at SALES. Of course, he plagiarized the materials and used them illegally without paying the licensing fee. Frankly, I'm shocked he even let people know it was the Dale Carnegie course and didn't claim he learned it directly from God like he usually claimed.
vpw KNEW this was all a con, so he waited until he had the corps aside privately, then upped the ante with peer pressure and other pressures when he kicked entire corps classes out- then the next day offered to let them return if they pledged their loyalty (while basically admitting THEY did something WRONG and that's why they were dumped
The exact same thing happened in FellowLaborers of Ohio (mid 1970's). That suggests to me that the whole scenario was pre-planned and staged.
The exact same thing happened in FellowLaborers of Ohio (mid 1970's). That suggests to me that the whole scenario was pre-planned and staged.
So long as he kept it under wraps, he could-and did- use that tactic repeatedly. It's blatantly manipulative, which is classic vpw when the cameras were off. The 'Zero Corps' all walked when he pulled that- so I suspect he fine-tuned his ploy by offering his "second chance" immediately the next day. That's purely speculation, however (I'm speculating he added the second chance the next day and for that reason.)
So long as he kept it under wraps, he could-and did- use that tactic repeatedly. It's blatantly manipulative, which is classic vpw when the cameras were off. The 'Zero Corps' all walked when he pulled that- so I suspect he fine-tuned his ploy by offering his "second chance" immediately the next day. That's purely speculation, however (I'm speculating he added the second chance the next day and for that reason.)
I thought my parents were important too. Wonderful examples, both, of Christian love and support and selfless service to others, including respect and care for their own elders, taught to me and still carried on by me.
I never understood why the "Wierwille family" was so important - and why TWI attempted to teach me that my own family was less to be respected and honoured. It didn't seem right at the time, and it never became "right" in my eyes. I'm jolly sure it wasn't right in God's eyes. If nothing else, they should have been honoured as brothers and sisters in the faith. Instead, my mother was significantly dishonoured by my then "twig leader" (who I think has now repented of his thuggishness under TWI).
Praise the Lord, I'm now a part of the wider Christian community, where others, especially older folk, are embraced, honoured, respected, and treated with courtesy.
Amen to that.
It all makes me think that he did go very out of bounds with his pre occupation with his own family and trying to build a "family" of Way Corps and followers close to himself.
VPW had a very specific belief that it was necessary for his family to all be together behind him and actively supporting what he was doing for it to succeed. He had gotten son Don to come back and work with him and everyone was required to "stand" with his ministry for it to succeed and live on. He spoke about this more in the last 70's, around 79, 80, 81 and at Camp Gunnison around 1980 with the Way Corps gathered there.
He talked a lot to the 4th Corps about his German heritage and history and began the process of memorializing the Weirwille history to illustrate the underpinnings of his own life and ministry's birth.
I hesitate to label people narcissists as so much of narcissism is found in normal behaviors but when it becomes as complex and pervasive as his it's probably warranted, especially his view of failure. Anything that failed was nearly ALWAYS someone else's fault and in the end of his life the myth was built that his very death was caused by others he claimed deserted him.
Going back into years of exposure to him I saw him repeatedly struggle to work in difficult circumstances - contrary to the tough-guy-rebel personae he put out he would crumble into a teary mess if some small detail was out of order, complain that "no one believed him" while surrounded by 100's of people anxiously hanging on his every word. Any number of minor physical impedances would throw him into a screaming tirade blaming devil spirits, unbelief, even accusing those who worked endless hours to support his teaching ministry of outright colluding to destroy him. Then an hour later, he'd be all smiles - "oh, you're not still made at me are you??" he'd coo....and like the abusive parent cuddling the child they'd slapped around he'd say "Aww, I love you, I only get mad at you cause I want the best for you! hahawhaw!"......
That's not a healthy family environment, trying desparetly to please him, never knowing when Daddy's going to blow a fuse and throw something. Now - VPW never got physical at any time of his life, I want to make that clear, he never hit anyone or anything like that, that I ever saw and I don't want to give that impression or imply that - but the dynamics of the power-authority-role he used was classic manipulation.
Those he mentored the closest all picked that up too - Like LCM and others, grown men, some former athletes, fine specimens, absolutely going ballistic if someone sneezed during a teaching they did, or god forbid got there 5 minutes late. They'd find crooked chairs, coffee too cold or too hot, posters they didn't like, lighting too bright, too dim, a tie out of place, a WOW pin on the wrong side, a Holy Spirit dove missing, no glass of water at the podium, too many mints in the bowl, not enough, flowers not right, etc. etc. etc. and any number of reasons that their strength was sapped, concentration ruined and their spiritual armor under violent attack - if the AC went on during their teaching. ( the hum!!! the hum!!!!! )
Self-absorbed "ministers" of their own egos....Far from being tough, single minded and ready for anything and equal to anything as "More than Conquerors", like him they were frail and weak, beaten by their own egos - and for the biggest and loudest of his mentors, pride did come before their falls.
It's so telling that VPW rejected his own family and those closest to him at the end of his life...."No friends when it comes to the WORD!!!".....hell, he didn't let anyone be his friend for long. I do think in his mind he was acting out a great drama of his own manufacture.
Edited by socks Hamburgers! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast!
I thought my parents were important too. Wonderful examples, both, of Christian love and support and selfless service to others, including respect and care for their own elders, taught to me and still carried on by me.
I never understood why the "Wierwille family" was so important - and why TWI attempted to teach me that my own family was less to be respected and honoured. It didn't seem right at the time, and it never became "right" in my eyes. I'm jolly sure it wasn't right in God's eyes. If nothing else, they should have been honoured as brothers and sisters in the faith. Instead, my mother was significantly dishonoured by my then "twig leader" (who I think has now repented of his thuggishness under TWI).
Praise the Lord, I'm now a part of the wider Christian community, where others, especially older folk, are embraced, honoured, respected, and treated with courtesy.
23 hours ago, socks said:
...I hesitate to label people narcissists as so much of narcissism is found in normal behaviors but when it becomes as complex and pervasive as his it's probably warranted, especially his view of failure. Anything that failed was nearly ALWAYS someone else's fault and in the end of his life the myth was built that his very death was caused by others he claimed deserted him. ...
...Self-absorbed "ministers" of their own egos....Far from being tough, single minded and ready for anything and equal to anything as "More than Conquerors", like him they were frail and weak, beaten by their own egos - and for the biggest and loudest of his mentors, pride did come before their falls.
It's so telling that VPW rejected his own family and those closest to him at the end of his life...."No friends when it comes to the WORD!!!".....hell, he didn't let anyone be his friend for long. I do think in his mind he was acting out a great drama of his own manufacture.
Great posts! Here’s a few thoughts I had after reading them.
I think I learned more about honesty and empathy from my Mom & Dad than I ever did from wierwille. And my parents taught me that stuff – not by lectures or sermons on how to be a good Christian – but by how they lived their lives in raising me and my siblings. As a parent myself – now looking back on my folks – I believe I draw some inspiration of self-sacrifice for my kids by recalling how they would be supportive of our interests and dreams – not only financially – but even in just talking with us about all that stuff. That is a crazy interesting thing about parenthood – there’s someone who is a part of me – yet separate from me – who may have some totally different hopes and dreams than me…fascinating!
I didn’t always feel that way about my parents. I’ve shared this before on another thread cults: the art of deception ...While growing up I was influenced by the counterculture of the 60s – there formed a gap between me and my parents. When the glue of family ties is weakened we may be attracted to a group that seems to satisfy our sense of belonging. But after being in TWI for some 12 years – I became disillusioned with them – and it took me some time to figure out why. Basically it amounts to there being nothing like the real thing when it comes to family ties - even as imperfect as they may be and as hurtful as they may be at times - there is a real connection there. Blood is thicker than water as the expression goes.
In general, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with groups (churches, organizations, friends, etc.) that help you see the value in life or even just help you cope with life. I think my weak family ties made me vulnerable – set me up as a target – for the leader of a pseudo-family. Yes, wierwille in all his narcissistic glory was the “patriarch” of this pseudo-family. His pet saying of “I have no friends when it comes to the word” speaks volumes about his exaggerated feeling of self-importance and his lack of empathy to how others felt. wierwille’s pet dictum really covers it all – "I have no friends - or ties to an earthly family for that matter - when it comes to the word"…really ? where does it say that in the Bible? Chapter and verse please.
The twisted version of self-sacrifice I learned during my 12 year involvement with TWI was that I was expected to put the priorities of The Way International ahead of everything else in my life. Actual family ties you may have are subjugated by the “reality of your spiritual family” (contrary to the bogus claim on the back of the PFAL sign up card “develops more harmony in the home”). . it's a variation of the previously mentioned dictum: don’t let anyone – not even your earthly family come between you and your spiritual family of The Way International.... how many marriages, families and friends were split up because a TWI follower was "taking a stand on the word"? and you know there were a lot of situations where upper leadership put the pressure on folks to make a choice between staying with The Way International or staying with their spouse who didn't see eye to eye with upper leadership.
Sure glad I left that mess. In my ever evolving opinion, when it comes to family stuff - I see in the Bible a lot of stuff about reconciliation ( the prodigal son for example...or better yet, how about seeing reconciliation as having a higher priority than even worship in Matthew 5:23, 24 ) . I believe having patience, being supportive...having forgiveness, and empathy towards others...especially family members is a big deal.
While we're thinking about the strength of family, perhaps some wannabes might take into account Eli and his sons. Eli wasn't particularly a wicked priest/leader. He was lazy in his Godly responsibilities, didn't serve the congregation well and - among other things - he didn't adequately bring up his sons and allowed them to go astray - all the while during a time they purported to be priests themselves. Read 1 Sam 2, where it started with theft of offerings and donations, and went on to become forced sex with the women. Eli lived to see his sons receive God's justice, then died himself. And the famous priest/leader Samuel, no relation whatsoever, took Eli's place.
Families are good. They can maintain good standards and values. And they can harbour very bad standards and values.
I don't know enough about the wider Wierwille family to know if they're good or bad - I don't care to know, they're irrelevant to me. Some, many, are involved in CFFM; I think some are still involved in TWI. God will assess them on their own individual hearts and lives - not on whether or not they came from a "good" family. That's all I care to know about them: do they, to the best of their ability, live their lives honestly before God?
I wonder about JY and M's family. When I knew the couple, I really liked them both. But that was several decades ago. No doubt they have kids now, and maybe even grandkids. Things have changed for both them and for me, now. Have they brought up kids they way TWI taught - or with genuine parental love, care and compassion? Do their family members "stand with them"?
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skyrider
The announcement that you, Jean-Yves, will be twi's next president has reached GreaseSpot Café. Knowing you from those early days in Quebec City, and your WOW year in Toronto.......I am not surpr
DontWorryBeHappy
Thanks Skyrider! Another tremendous series of posts from a long-time GSC stalwart. Honest and forthright with volumes of FACTS to substantiate your every word. A reason your continued presence he
Twinky
And that would be God being kind to them... Chocky, your "news footage" well represents the wreck of Wayfers' lives after TWI and the "road to Damascus" that opened our eyes to the evil of TWI.
skyrider
An Insidious Plan..........(proceeding in a gradual, subtle way; intending to entrap and harm)
The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.
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Mike Barbour
Until the Way leadership repents and apologizes for it's sins, sins either by commission or omission, then I will have nothing more to do with them. I believe Dr. Weirwille did teach the Truth to the best of his ability and certainly challenged each of us to prove the scriptures for ourselves. He said the Way never makes anybody leave, just anybody. Well, the homophobic, self righteous bastard that followed him certainly dispelled that myth. I had a very long talk with Wanda Weirwille right after everything came out about the sex scenes. She openly admitted it was happening, unlike any of those in leadership positions. I told her I care about TWI but I can't stand in support of what leadership was doing behind closed doors. Teaching one thing and doing another is NOT okay, it's hypocritical at best and insidious. Letting the Devil in even a little bit means you've lost any legitimacy you might have ever had. I'm sorry but I don't see anywhere in the Word that it's ok to lead a double life, nor is it ok to yell at and berate people. Being especially good to those of the household of faith means you have to actually BE that! What Martindale did and the rest of them, and yes, even VPW is not something that is tolerable in least sense. Excusing it is even worse. I entered the Way when I was completely lost. I was healed by the Word. I thought we were surrounded by good men and women. I never put my faith in man, my faith is and always remained having my faith in God. I believe we were taught more Truth than any other organization on the planet, and I still believe that to be true. There were faults that crept in, having superiority complexes for a start, perpetuated over and over again, especially by Craig Martindale. Of course VPW did that as well, anyone born again is of the household of faith, not those just in the Way. It always bothered me the title bestowed on VPW. The father in the word was damn near blasphemy! God is our Father, not VPW. This among other things let the fox into the henhouse so to speak. The I can sleep with any number of women I want was another one. Even if God hadn't changed, old testament people having multiple wives, that's fine, but they weren't teaching that NOR were they taking in multiple wives. The sex club was out of bounds for anything God ever said was ok. The homophobia and purging after VPW died is also against God's Word. NO one has any scripture saying you kick "sinners" out to the curb. That goes against everything Jesus did and taught his disciples to do and nowhere does God allow that. There is a specific instance where God says to hand someone over to the adversary. But, if that's what they were justifying what did upon they were dead wrong. That scripture deals with disruptive people who are inside causing trouble and being disruptive to the body. That's not why they were throwing people out on their foot. Tbey were throwing anyone out who dared to question them about anything. Or who they believed were somehow a threat, like gay people, who news flash, are usually some of the least troublesome people you'd ever meet. I don't know their heads got so big they thought they were doing God's work. Except as I said, you give the Devil an inch and he will steal, kill and destroy everything of God. You can't serve two masters. You can claim to be serving one, but if you're serving the other then you're not serving one. You can't teach people one thing and do another and call yourself serving God. Mistakes and sins can be forgiven, but purposely lying and covering up a double life doesn't leave time to serve God. Now, if they had come out and said this is what we are doing and here is what God says about and why it's ok, and research had been done proving they are living a life decent and in order according to God's Word, then we would have had a starting point to start figuring out if they were telling us Truth. But, of course they couldn't, so they chose to hide it behind closed doors until men and women decided enough already, and brought their double lives to light. Then, OMG, they had to purge people because God forbid anyone stand up to them with doctrine! Like John Shoengeit (spelling?) did with his research paper during a time the Research Ministry was, gasp, suspended. You can't call yourself one thing and refuse to do it. Martindale decided then we had to get back to basics. Basic what? Idolatry? Polishing the pedestal VPW was placed on? Basic what exactly? Isn't it basic scripture you were using to sleep with multiple women? Oh, NO, of course it wasn't. So how dare someone research to see if it's ok to be unfaithful to your wife/husband?! Then get thrown on his foot when his paper says, shocker, it's not ok. Anyone around during that time either knew it was happening or were part of it. So, anyone that remained after it was exposed was either supporting it directly or indirectly. I went one step further and recalled scripture not to believe anything against an elder except in the case of 2 or 3 witnesses. I got multiple witnesses before I ever saw Wanda Weirwille. So, until leadership apologizes for the wrong they did or supported and takes responsibility for the blatantly false doctrine perpetuated by all the leaders, our only Father being God, anyone born again in the household of faith etc. I just will support doctrinal and practical errors. They truly do owe a huge apology to everyone they hurt or continue to hurt because we all were hungry for the Truth, but the double lives and serving Satan at the head by perpetuating outright lies and not being repentent when confronted with the Truth, well, we are left with the only option left to us, hand them over to the adversary and walk away. Heartbroken and weeping, but necessary because God doesn't allow leaders and elders to live double lives and He is clear on what we are to do. Confront them with the Truth and with witnesses. We did, and they marked us and threw us out. Newsflash for them, they are the ones who were marked and thrown out, not us. It is more difficult to serve God now but God never said I'll make it simple and keep a ministry walking on my Word for you to have and support you. So, we do what we can and believe God regardless. But, new presidents with old ways are still unacceptable and if they stood on the Word, they can not stand with ministry committing blashphemy, or unapologetic for trying to destroy people's lives who were doing the right thing. I believe God taught Dr. Weirwille and I believe what he taught was mostly right, and taught with his understanding at the time. I don't know that anyone will ever be 100% right because we do not have perfect originals to go by. But, by revelation and a willingness to work the Word God can show us many things. Knowledge puffeth up, and it certainly did in the Way. It seems that leads to corruption as well. I don't know at what point that started, but I do think it was later rather than sooner. All I know is I learned how to work the word for myself and gained a lot of knowledge, some was blatantly wrong but most was as close to the Truth as I think we will ever come. It is a real shame leadership lost any meekness or humility and decided to walk away from God en masse, and remove peoole en masse. With a few changes God would have still blessed it and us as a group, but Satan got his grubby little hands involved and ruined it for everyone. I'm not sure they will ever come back from that, because they are choosing arrogance over humility.
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WordWolf
Hello, Mike Barbour. God bless you.
I'm sure a lot of us are interested in what you wrote. Unfortunately, you submitted a "text-block" - a huge block of text that is hard to read comfortably. As a public service, I'm going to repost what you wrote, adding ONLY the spaces, so that we can read what you wrote comfortably. I will NOT change ONE WORD of your text-block.
Ok, here goes.
Mike Barbour posted (above) the following.......
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Until the Way leadership repents and apologizes for it's sins, sins either by commission or omission, then I will have nothing more to do with them.
I believe Dr. Weirwille did teach the Truth to the best of his ability and certainly challenged each of us to prove the scriptures for ourselves.
He said the Way never makes anybody leave, just anybody. Well, the homophobic, self righteous bastard that followed him certainly dispelled that myth. I had a very long talk with Wanda Weirwille right after everything came out about the sex scenes. She openly admitted it was happening, unlike any of those in leadership positions. I told her I care about TWI but I can't stand in support of what leadership was doing behind closed doors. Teaching one thing and doing another is NOT okay, it's hypocritical at best and insidious. Letting the Devil in even a little bit means you've lost any legitimacy you might have ever had.
I'm sorry but I don't see anywhere in the Word that it's ok to lead a double life, nor is it ok to yell at and berate people. Being especially good to those of the household of faith means you have to actually BE that! What Martindale did and the rest of them, and yes, even VPW is not something that is tolerable in least sense. Excusing it is even worse.
I entered the Way when I was completely lost. I was healed by the Word. I thought we were surrounded by good men and women. I never put my faith in man, my faith is and always remained having my faith in God. I believe we were taught more Truth than any other organization on the planet, and I still believe that to be true.
There were faults that crept in, having superiority complexes for a start, perpetuated over and over again, especially by Craig Martindale. Of course VPW did that as well, anyone born again is of the household of faith, not those just in the Way.
It always bothered me the title bestowed on VPW. The father in the word was damn near blasphemy! God is our Father, not VPW.
This among other things let the fox into the henhouse so to speak. The I can sleep with any number of women I want was another one. Even if God hadn't changed, old testament people having multiple wives, that's fine, but they weren't teaching that NOR were they taking in multiple wives. The sex club was out of bounds for anything God ever said was ok.
The homophobia and purging after VPW died is also against God's Word. NO one has any scripture saying you kick "sinners" out to the curb. That goes against everything Jesus did and taught his disciples to do and nowhere does God allow that. There is a specific instance where God says to hand someone over to the adversary. But, if that's what they were justifying what did upon they were dead wrong. That scripture deals with disruptive people who are inside causing trouble and being disruptive to the body. That's not why they were throwing people out on their foot. Tbey were throwing anyone out who dared to question them about anything.
Or who they believed were somehow a threat, like gay people, who news flash, are usually some of the least troublesome people you'd ever meet. I don't know their heads got so big they thought they were doing God's work. Except as I said, you give the Devil an inch and he will steal, kill and destroy everything of God.
You can't serve two masters. You can claim to be serving one, but if you're serving the other then you're not serving one. You can't teach people one thing and do another and call yourself serving God. Mistakes and sins can be forgiven, but purposely lying and covering up a double life doesn't leave time to serve God.
Now, if they had come out and said this is what we are doing and here is what God says about and why it's ok, and research had been done proving they are living a life decent and in order according to God's Word, then we would have had a starting point to start figuring out if they were telling us Truth. But, of course they couldn't, so they chose to hide it behind closed doors until men and women decided enough already, and brought their double lives to light.
Then, OMG, they had to purge people because God forbid anyone stand up to them with doctrine! Like John Shoengeit (spelling?) did with his research paper during a time the Research Ministry was, gasp, suspended. You can't call yourself one thing and refuse to do it.
Martindale decided then we had to get back to basics. Basic what? Idolatry? Polishing the pedestal VPW was placed on? Basic what exactly? Isn't it basic scripture you were using to sleep with multiple women? Oh, NO, of course it wasn't. So how dare someone research to see if it's ok to be unfaithful to your wife/husband?! Then get thrown on his foot when his paper says, shocker, it's not ok.
Anyone around during that time either knew it was happening or were part of it. So, anyone that remained after it was exposed was either supporting it directly or indirectly. I went one step further and recalled scripture not to believe anything against an elder except in the case of 2 or 3 witnesses. I got multiple witnesses before I ever saw Wanda Weirwille.
So, until leadership apologizes for the wrong they did or supported and takes responsibility for the blatantly false doctrine perpetuated by all the leaders, our only Father being God, anyone born again in the household of faith etc. I just will support doctrinal and practical errors.
They truly do owe a huge apology to everyone they hurt or continue to hurt because we all were hungry for the Truth, but the double lives and serving Satan at the head by perpetuating outright lies and not being repentent when confronted with the Truth, well, we are left with the only option left to us, hand them over to the adversary and walk away. Heartbroken and weeping, but necessary because God doesn't allow leaders and elders to live double lives and He is clear on what we are to do. Confront them with the Truth and with witnesses. We did, and they marked us and threw us out. Newsflash for them, they are the ones who were marked and thrown out, not us.
It is more difficult to serve God now but God never said I'll make it simple and keep a ministry walking on my Word for you to have and support you. So, we do what we can and believe God regardless. But, new presidents with old ways are still unacceptable and if they stood on the Word, they can not stand with ministry committing blashphemy, or unapologetic for trying to destroy people's lives who were doing the right thing.
I believe God taught Dr. Weirwille and I believe what he taught was mostly right, and taught with his understanding at the time. I don't know that anyone will ever be 100% right because we do not have perfect originals to go by. But, by revelation and a willingness to work the Word God can show us many things.
Knowledge puffeth up, and it certainly did in the Way. It seems that leads to corruption as well.
I don't know at what point that started, but I do think it was later rather than sooner.
All I know is I learned how to work the word for myself and gained a lot of knowledge, some was blatantly wrong but most was as close to the Truth as I think we will ever come.
It is a real shame leadership lost any meekness or humility and decided to walk away from God en masse, and remove peoole en masse. With a few changes God would have still blessed it and us as a group, but Satan got his grubby little hands involved and ruined it for everyone. I'm not sure they will ever come back from that, because they are choosing arrogance over humility.
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WordWolf
Mike B,
[You probably know that this messageboard (the GSC) exists "to tell the other side of the story." There's differences of opinions, and that's refreshing after the mental confines of parroting whatever twi insisted was the party line. So, there's Christians here (like me), and non-Christians, both of many varieties. I'm sure opinions about me from off this site sound like they're talking about 2 different people or more, depending on what the speakers care about. I'm "yes" on the Bible, but "no" on anything twi that doesn't connect to it, and I care about the truth, not making anyone happy. (That's enough to make friends and enemies for exactly the same reasons.) So, please keep in mind that I've done my best to try to learn what was true in twi, what was rumor, and so on, regardless of whether I WANTED to believe it or not. It's with that in mind that I reply to you, agreeing on some points and disagreeing on others. ]
[b[I agree with this:]]/b]
"Until the Way leadership repents and apologizes for it's sins, sins either by commission or omission, then I will have nothing more to do with them. "
[I'll go further and say we're separated for life because they will never change twi enough to make it something I'd seriously consider rejoining.]
"I believe Dr. Weirwille did teach the Truth to the best of his ability and certainly challenged each of us to prove the scriptures for ourselves."
[I think we were told to prove the Scriptures for ourselves, and that is correct and important. Unfortunately, I'm convinced- beyond any reasonable doubt- that wierwille ripped off the teaching styles and materials of others, and simply re-presented THEIR work, claiming it was his own. It doesn't appear that wierwille ever actually BELIEVED the Bible. In fact, he admitted that he'd completed his entire education for ministry, and had already begun his first year as a minister, before he'd ever believed the Bible was the Word of God. Removing that as a motive, it seems that he began as a minister because he could make a good presentation and make a comfortable living and get respect for doing it. All "his" best work can be traced directly to specific authors and teachers. vpw did that and did his best to make us think that it was all the results of HIS study and communication with God Almighty and nothing else. (He said he used the Bible as his textbook and workbook, period.) He made many claims, all designed to make it look like he had a special connection with God Almighty while hiding his sources of information. PRIVATELY, he said he'd heard from God, and claimed God gave him instructions all the time.
All of that having been said, I think we were actually taught a lot of truth DESPITE THAT. It was meant to ensnare us- and sometimes it did- but it was nevertheless TAUGHT.]
" He said the Way never makes anybody leave, just anybody." [He also said, of "the Zero Corps" that he "gave them the privilege of leaving." vpw was not above kicking people out PRIVATELY while claiming he NEVER did it. Yes, he was a hypocrite- moreso than most people, and unapologetic about it.]
"Well, the homophobic, self righteous bastard that followed him certainly dispelled that myth."
[The thing is, wierwille KNEW he was conning us, so he knew where to draw the line and when to silence the microphone. He trained lcm, making him two-fold the child of hell that he himself was. lcm was convinced vpw was serving God- so he didn't know it was all a con and that there was a time to shut up. Periodically, with the corps- and thus in private- vpw kicked out all of a corps class, then turn around and offer to let them return if they rededicated themselves to twi. This almost always worked, and vpw knew he could count on those drones that stayed. Later, lcm tried the same thing with people who were NOT the corps- and this resulted in people walking away and not looking back.
Yes, lcm was homophobic and self-righteous.... He was partly homophobic because he was a jock in college, and went straight from there into twi leadership full-time. He learned NOTHING in twi to dispel his attitudes, so they remained at a jock level. vpw's training of him never addressed that. It DID address self-righteousness. If anything, vpw MADE lcm self-righteous. vpw modeled the opposite of humility, and taught lcm accordingly. lcm was as much a victim of vpw as anyone else- which is why he made victims of others. Ever heard how abuse survivors often abuse others later in life? This worked the same way. vpw personally picked lcm. He did not choose him for any competency. He chose lcm because lcm never questioned vpw, but instead would have driven off a cliff at vpw's instruction. It's an awful reason to pick the leader of a Christian organization, but vpw gave that as his reason when asked once. Yes, lcm ruined many lives and has a LOT to answer for, and never went to prison despite committing crimes. However, that's NOT the whole story, so I feel a little bad for him among all this. Please consider that.]
"I had a very long talk with Wanda Weirwille right after everything came out about the sex scenes. She openly admitted it was happening, unlike any of those in leadership positions. I told her I care about TWI but I can't stand in support of what leadership was doing behind closed doors. Teaching one thing and doing another is NOT okay, it's hypocritical at best and insidious. Letting the Devil in even a little bit means you've lost any legitimacy you might have ever had. "
[I agree fully. vpw did it first, and taught lcm to do it. This does NOT EXCUSE lcm for doing it, he had free will and chose to do what he did. twi's "lockbox" doctrine- THEIR name, not mine- said to keep this sort of thing hush-hush, so vpw's victims were often silenced early on without further coercion. lcm participated fully in this, and bears responsibility for his own actions regardless of who taught him.]
"I'm sorry but I don't see anywhere in the Word that it's ok to lead a double life, nor is it ok to yell at and berate people. Being especially good to those of the household of faith means you have to actually BE that! What Martindale did and the rest of them, and yes, even VPW is not something that is tolerable in least sense. Excusing it is even worse."
[There's some who claim it's evil for us to expose what vpw and lcm did- but those same people are not outraged that they did it. To them, it's worse to expose vpw as a plagiarizing rapist who drugged women than for him to have drugged and raped the women. I'm NOT exaggerating.]
"I entered the Way when I was completely lost. I was healed by the Word. I thought we were surrounded by good men and women. I never put my faith in man, my faith is and always remained having my faith in God. "
[I'm with you there, but some people are not, and that's ok. They're free to disagree, and we ALL have a "right to be wrong". We all bear responsibility for our decisions, and, frankly, I prefer it that way.]
" I believe we were taught more Truth than any other organization on the planet, and I still believe that to be true. "
[Due to vpw plagiarizing some quality Christians, I believe we were taught some Truth while in twi, but not everything we were taught there was Truth or truth. Furthermore, there's plenty of quality Christians who've never heard of twi, vpw, or anyone connected with twi. vpw did his best to put forth that himself was some great one, that ALL the quality teachings he had were from him, and that all Christians everywhere else were flawed and INFERIOR to twi Christians. I believe all of that was error- to say the least. The idea that God wasn't relying solely on a plagiarizing rapist to get things done is rather comforting- and rather sensible, IMHO.]
"There were faults that crept in, having superiority complexes for a start, perpetuated over and over again, especially by Craig Martindale. Of course VPW did that as well, anyone born again is of the household of faith, not those just in the Way."
[For twi, that's awfully subversive. ;) Christians being equal is repugnant in twi and to twi. Yes, arrogance and superiority was taught in twi as a matter of course, and the top cadre- with vpw and lcm leading- were generally the worst at it.]
I'll reply to the rest later, but that's plenty for now. I hope you're well and are in touch with some Christians who won't do to you what twi did to us.
Edited by WordWolfFormatting error
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WordWolf
[I'm ready to reply to a little more. Let's see.....] [/b]
"It always bothered me the title bestowed on VPW. The father in the word was damn near blasphemy! God is our Father, not VPW."
[I never liked that one, and never used that one. vpw himself started that one as well as calling himself "The Teacher." (I didn't use that one, either.) vpw claimed that whoever spoke to you so you got saved was your "father in the word" (supposedly based on I Corinthians 4:15 "15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." After that, somehow, he changed that into HIMSELF, possibly by claiming it wasn't them, but whoever spoke to THEM and so on, with the chain ending with himself. I know there were still people speaking to that effect years after vpw died. If Ephesians 4:6 is correct in us being in unity in one Father, then claiming vpw or someone else is that (besides an obvious male parent) disunites us away from One God.]
"This among other things let the fox into the henhouse so to speak. The I can sleep with any number of women I want was another one. Even if God hadn't changed, old testament people having multiple wives, that's fine, but they weren't teaching that NOR were they taking in multiple wives. The sex club was out of bounds for anything God ever said was ok. "
["Technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king." vpw said that in pfal, but there was NO verse quoted for it, since the OT Law said the opposite. Then vpw quietly equated himself with "the king." vpw was trying to get people OK with that for a long time. In the 60s, when he hijacked the hippies, he'd gone to Haight-Ashbury looking for Christian hippies because he thought he'd found Christians who were ok with orgies. He pestered J1m D00p for specifics about what it was like to attend an orgy. (Jim had dropped in on one briefly, years before, and was thankful to be able to avoid them since then.) vpw then went on to tell JIm that orgies were OK with God. He said it was "available", and his spin on I Corinthians 7:1 ("Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.") was that it meant that God permitted a man touching a woman because it said "good" but not "best", so vpw said that meant God was ok with it. Obviously, the rest of the chapter said otherwise, but what's another lie by that point? vpw spent years setting up the framework that allowed him to maximize the chances to molest and/or rape godly women. Yes, others were needed to keep that going, and some also partook of it.]
"The homophobia and purging after VPW died is also against God's Word. NO one has any scripture saying you kick "sinners" out to the curb. That goes against everything Jesus did and taught his disciples to do and nowhere does God allow that. There is a specific instance where God says to hand someone over to the adversary. But, if that's what they were justifying what did upon they were dead wrong. That scripture deals with disruptive people who are inside causing trouble and being disruptive to the body. That's not why they were throwing people out on their foot. Tbey were throwing anyone out who dared to question them about anything. "
[ All the "reasons" were PRETEXTS. They kicked out anyone who was inconvenient- which is what vpw did first. They followed suit, and kicked out anyone who made waves or looked like they MIGHT make waves. I agree with you both on what they did and why what they did was wrong.]
Edited by WordWolfFormatting error.
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Raymo
How important is it to "honor the fathers"? Those fathers in the faith who have affected our lives in some positive way, should be honored, shouldn't they? Not everything everyone does is good, and not everything they do is bad. We do not want to bless evil, and neither do we want to curse those things that are good, right?
I was just thinking about how much time we spent in the scripture at the cross of Jesus, in the PFAL class. Thinking back on my 60 + years of life, I can not recall anyone ever, taking me through so much time on the events of the life of Jesus, at the cross. Nobody ever did that with me that I can recall, other than VPW in that PFAL class. Did all that time at the cross have a positive benefit on our lives or not? Well how many people stood up when we were told to set our things aside, stand up, and speak in tongues? It was not at all uncommon for every new student to do exactly that.
I'm not saying that everything we were taught about those crucified with Christ was accurate. Today I don't believe as I was told back then, and did go along with. However, just thinking about how much time we spent on the events at the cross, is amazing. We really did hear about Christ and him crucified, right? Who has ever done that with us? Maybe some people have had that happen to them, before or since PFAL. I don't know, but I don't think it would be the majority.
I received the Holy Spirit with the manifestation of speaking in tongues, when I was reading a chapter out of one of his books that were a part of the class. which as I recall we had to purchase separately...long time ago to recall for me, but one of those small books had a very short chapter called "How To Speak In Tongues."
It was in PFAL, that I learned about where we got the scriptures. It was in PFAL that I received a respect and reverence for God. He really was with us in our meetings. Christ really was evident though us. through our lives, and the Holy Spirit actually was manifest among us. though the manifestations of the Spirit we functioned in. There was so much good in PFAL. Not everything in it was necessarily right on, but there was so, so, so much good and correct in it, right? Sure you know that's right. (VPW must have known the value of acknowledgement of the truth is. It's important. He knew how to draw that out of us, at times when we needed it.)
So I leave with this question to think about: How important is it to honor the fathers and mothers of the faith? (those who have taught us, and led us into the truth, and mentored us) Remember that it is those who honor the truth that can benefit from it, right? Now none of our teachers are the truth itself. Jesus is the truth, as well as the life, but every life has something to be honored, doesn't it? How have we been doing at that?
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Raymo
Interesting comment I read on "nostalgia ministry". I did hear about a nostalgia spirit that is not of God, that people were being warned about, many years ago.
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Raymo
As I recall, people were asked to commit to following LCM and if they did not, they were outed, being put on a black list, and from there anything anyone might have said about someone, might have been assumed to be true. If you have something against a brother, you are to go talk to him yourself first, then take one or two others. That sort of thing didn't happen as far as I could tell. I just can't see that we are supposed to promise that we will follow one leader or another. I don't see that in scripture anywhere. That in itself was the reason so many left. It's not the right thing to do. What ever happened to "Teach them the Word and let 'em go free."? Let's all learn from these things and do better.
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T-Bone
Hi Raymo and welcome to Grease Spot. Hope you stick around and check some things out further.
I don’t mean to rain on your parade but thinking about my time of involvement in TWI, I now look at PFAL, and for that matter the WOW program, the Way Corpse program and even wierwille himself in a totally different light. While I will say I’ve learned some good stuff about the Bible and met many good people in TWI, it is a very troubling thing to consider the fact that wierwille unabashedly plagiarized the material in PFAL. That makes him a thief and a liar. Why did he do that? Maybe to use PFAL as bait to lure people into the bondage of his ministry. The Bible speaks of false teachers
wierwille’s plagiarism and why he did it so flagrantly makes me think of counterfeit money. Besides the fact that counterfeiting money is a crime, think of how it defrauds the recipient of something valuable - i.e. buying a genuine Rolex watch with counterfeit money...I don't think it's too far fetched to say that wierwille “bought” the respect and allegiance of folks by passing off PFAL as his own work.
You may be interested in a few other threads that tell the real TRUTH about wierwille:
The Way Living in Wonderland
The wierwille legacy
interview with Ralph D about wierwille & plagiarism
Edited by T-BoneAdditional thoughts
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Rocky
I would wonder, Raymo, if you by chance might be able to show us chapter and verse what God might have said to us in the Bible about how important it is in the grand scheme of things.
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WordWolf
According to vpw, it wasn't really important to even know the names of "the fathers and mothers of the faith". He mentioned a few, and a lot of them were never even named in passing. We heard more about his brother Reuben than we did about, say, Martin Luther, and we never HEARD of Zwingli. So, vpw thought they didn't count as long as they weren't actually IN twi.
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T-Bone
I’m NOT surprised vpw gave little or no attention to anyone of note in theology. That goes along with his failing to give credit to all the sources he plagiarized. It’s like he was aspiring to become the unannounced gatekeeper for understanding the Bible. I think for many TWI followers he was just that.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Raymo speaks of how much time in PFAL we spent talking about the cross. Except for 4 crucified section, very little was on the cross. More time was Wierwille talking about holy spirit
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socks
Hi - couple thoughts...
i Timothy 5 gives some good broad strokes as to how we should treat each other in the church - it starts out with this guidance...
"Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
When you say honor the "fathers" you seem to be talking about elders in the church - <quote> "Those fathers in the faith who have affected our lives in some positive way, should be honored..."
I'd point you to Timothy 5 for that as a good starting point. And the answer is yes but more importantly and this is very important - to not think of ourselves (or anyone else) more highly than we should - Romans 12:3: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
If your point is to ask the question, "How are you at honoring Dr. Weirwille who taught the Bible in PFAL", I can only answer for myself but I would also advise others accordingly in regards to anyone who teaches them anything ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO TEACH THE BIBLE thusly:
When it comes to God, the Bible and the things of God which includes first and foremost His people, show great respect and honor to God first, His son Jesus Christ His "logos" as well as the Bible and to everyone, especially my brethren in Christ and those who dedicate themselves to God and the care of His people.
Remember too that the commandment of promise, to honor our mothers and fathers, places parents who raise their children in the faith of God as second in the chain of authority - first God, then parents then others. Parental authority can include others too but let's not muddy the waters to say it isn't first intended as a familial parent-child relationship which defines any aspect of a similar relationship of authority.
The exercise for many people is to NOT OVER - HONOR those who teach and care for the church. Just as a child can become over dependent on a parent and never become an individual even when they are taught and raised to become such, a member of the church can become reliant on someone else to lead them and decide for them and in so doing subvert God's desire to have a living growing relationship with them.
In the same way a "father or mother" can deliberately create conditions that keep their children dependent on them, and unable to live and contribute as an individual.
One of Dr. Weirwille's weaknesses was his own need to be accepted and affirmed. I would content that while many of his programs and ideas were good, many of them had components to keep the participants close to home, tied to his chain of command and needing to continually validate his authority and actions. I say that having been a participant in most if not all of The Way's classes, courses, programs and roles. He needed everyone to come in once a year or more so that he could keep the hub of everyone's lives in and at the Way Nash in Ohio. Rather than train, develop and release leaders to the work of God and Christ, he built a network of paid and volunteer members and participants who answered through a chain of command to himself.
Of course it grew out of that and to a great degree the failure of the organization of the Way as a functional business and means of outreach for the original teaching ministry it was based on and grew from was due to it being built to work with one man, one authority at the center. When that one man/central authority broke down as it always will, it failed.
So I have good memories of the Farm, the pond, the woods, many of the people and he various campuses and places where we worked and spent time, and I do revere God's Word. I would not teach what's in PFAL the same way, and I'd change some of the material based on how I understand the texts and theory it's based on. So I can honor Dr. Weirwille's teaching of the Bible but because he built so much of the Way around himself, his family, his heritage and his history I saw him really hold the whole thing back. People celebrate it today and say "look at what he did" and I'll credit that to an extent but knowing what I do today I'm not going to lead my own efforts with "Dr. Weirwille, The Teacher", because it adds unnecessary baggage to the message of Christ which I personally saw act as an anchor to the long term effort. Some say his unique blend of rebellious and angry personality served a greater purpose. I think it kept him inward faced, in Ohio where he built his ministry in his own likeness.
In the same way, people then might say "WELL! You sure did get real smart didn't you? Boy, you sure did get smart!" sarcastically. And my answer to that is - I was 18, 20, 25 then - did I get smarter in the last 50 years?.....YOU BET YOUR ASS I DID.
PEACE!
Edited by socksYep, that's about it.
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socks
Hi - Craig learned that from Dr. Weirwille. VPW fully expected everyone to follow his plans and decision, as the Way was "his" ministry and he was president and founder. If you didnt' want to support him as such he'd kick you out, fire you, terminate you. Monstrous lies circulated about those people in the following months and years. It wasn't that Craig invented being an asz hole - he had lots of mentoring.
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Twinky
I thought my parents were important too. Wonderful examples, both, of Christian love and support and selfless service to others, including respect and care for their own elders, taught to me and still carried on by me.
I never understood why the "Wierwille family" was so important - and why TWI attempted to teach me that my own family was less to be respected and honoured. It didn't seem right at the time, and it never became "right" in my eyes. I'm jolly sure it wasn't right in God's eyes. If nothing else, they should have been honoured as brothers and sisters in the faith. Instead, my mother was significantly dishonoured by my then "twig leader" (who I think has now repented of his thuggishness under TWI).
Praise the Lord, I'm now a part of the wider Christian community, where others, especially older folk, are embraced, honoured, respected, and treated with courtesy.
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WordWolf
FOUR sessions on holy spirit (9-12). Everything on the cross was on how everyone else is wrong on minutiae of the crucifixion. As has been said before, if you're more focused on the crosses on the side than the one in the middle, your focus is off. Bullinger's work was used to foster an arrogance that Bullinger himself didn't push.
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WordWolf
You recall correctly. lcm learned from vpw that you could suddenly just demand people's loyalty and kick them out if they didn't play along. vpw KNEW this was all a con, so he waited until he had the corps aside privately, then upped the ante with peer pressure and other pressures when he kicked entire corps classes out- then the next day offered to let them return if they pledged their loyalty (while basically admitting THEY did something WRONG and that's why they were dumped). On the other hand, lcm really thought this was of God, so he was sincere when he tried to do the same thing to the rank-and-file. In fact, he straight out demanded people specify they were to follow him personally and to neither pick geer, nor to say that we're not supposed to choose among men- specifying that he refused to accept "I stand with God" as a valid answer. Any leader who didn't immediately fall in line was kicked out abruptly.
The letter that told NY State of the firings-by name- of pretty much all the existing leadership accused all of them of following their bellies and trying to deceive us. It was the same letter sent to other states, with only the names of the fired ones swapped. Yes, virtually all the believers left WITH them. I made sure by going to the following ROA, where I saw things for myself and went to the bookstore one last time. Having had a chance to see both sides, it was clear one was way off and the other did not appear to be- at least to a casual inspection and to all the accusations made about them.
BTW, I don't know where you heard "let 'em go free" from. vpw wanted to keep everybody in and tithing and buying everything. We weren't supposed to just "cut bait"- we were supposed to keep retention up, and to get more new people. It's the reason the only "professional" training the corps actually got was the Dale Carnegie course on SALES. The highest priority to vpw to train in his program was to train the attendees to be good at SALES. Of course, he plagiarized the materials and used them illegally without paying the licensing fee. Frankly, I'm shocked he even let people know it was the Dale Carnegie course and didn't claim he learned it directly from God like he usually claimed.
I agree we should all learn and should do better.
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waysider
The exact same thing happened in FellowLaborers of Ohio (mid 1970's). That suggests to me that the whole scenario was pre-planned and staged.
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WordWolf
So long as he kept it under wraps, he could-and did- use that tactic repeatedly. It's blatantly manipulative, which is classic vpw when the cameras were off. The 'Zero Corps' all walked when he pulled that- so I suspect he fine-tuned his ploy by offering his "second chance" immediately the next day. That's purely speculation, however (I'm speculating he added the second chance the next day and for that reason.)
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Rocky
Seems like a reasonable inference.
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socks
Amen to that.
It all makes me think that he did go very out of bounds with his pre occupation with his own family and trying to build a "family" of Way Corps and followers close to himself.
VPW had a very specific belief that it was necessary for his family to all be together behind him and actively supporting what he was doing for it to succeed. He had gotten son Don to come back and work with him and everyone was required to "stand" with his ministry for it to succeed and live on. He spoke about this more in the last 70's, around 79, 80, 81 and at Camp Gunnison around 1980 with the Way Corps gathered there.
He talked a lot to the 4th Corps about his German heritage and history and began the process of memorializing the Weirwille history to illustrate the underpinnings of his own life and ministry's birth.
I hesitate to label people narcissists as so much of narcissism is found in normal behaviors but when it becomes as complex and pervasive as his it's probably warranted, especially his view of failure. Anything that failed was nearly ALWAYS someone else's fault and in the end of his life the myth was built that his very death was caused by others he claimed deserted him.
Going back into years of exposure to him I saw him repeatedly struggle to work in difficult circumstances - contrary to the tough-guy-rebel personae he put out he would crumble into a teary mess if some small detail was out of order, complain that "no one believed him" while surrounded by 100's of people anxiously hanging on his every word. Any number of minor physical impedances would throw him into a screaming tirade blaming devil spirits, unbelief, even accusing those who worked endless hours to support his teaching ministry of outright colluding to destroy him. Then an hour later, he'd be all smiles - "oh, you're not still made at me are you??" he'd coo....and like the abusive parent cuddling the child they'd slapped around he'd say "Aww, I love you, I only get mad at you cause I want the best for you! hahawhaw!"......
That's not a healthy family environment, trying desparetly to please him, never knowing when Daddy's going to blow a fuse and throw something. Now - VPW never got physical at any time of his life, I want to make that clear, he never hit anyone or anything like that, that I ever saw and I don't want to give that impression or imply that - but the dynamics of the power-authority-role he used was classic manipulation.
Those he mentored the closest all picked that up too - Like LCM and others, grown men, some former athletes, fine specimens, absolutely going ballistic if someone sneezed during a teaching they did, or god forbid got there 5 minutes late. They'd find crooked chairs, coffee too cold or too hot, posters they didn't like, lighting too bright, too dim, a tie out of place, a WOW pin on the wrong side, a Holy Spirit dove missing, no glass of water at the podium, too many mints in the bowl, not enough, flowers not right, etc. etc. etc. and any number of reasons that their strength was sapped, concentration ruined and their spiritual armor under violent attack - if the AC went on during their teaching. ( the hum!!! the hum!!!!!
)
Self-absorbed "ministers" of their own egos....Far from being tough, single minded and ready for anything and equal to anything as "More than Conquerors", like him they were frail and weak, beaten by their own egos - and for the biggest and loudest of his mentors, pride did come before their falls.
It's so telling that VPW rejected his own family and those closest to him at the end of his life...."No friends when it comes to the WORD!!!".....hell, he didn't let anyone be his friend for long. I do think in his mind he was acting out a great drama of his own manufacture.
Edited by socksHamburgers! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast!
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T-Bone
Great posts! Here’s a few thoughts I had after reading them.
I think I learned more about honesty and empathy from my Mom & Dad than I ever did from wierwille. And my parents taught me that stuff – not by lectures or sermons on how to be a good Christian – but by how they lived their lives in raising me and my siblings. As a parent myself – now looking back on my folks – I believe I draw some inspiration of self-sacrifice for my kids by recalling how they would be supportive of our interests and dreams – not only financially – but even in just talking with us about all that stuff. That is a crazy interesting thing about parenthood – there’s someone who is a part of me – yet separate from me – who may have some totally different hopes and dreams than me…fascinating!
I didn’t always feel that way about my parents. I’ve shared this before on another thread cults: the art of deception ...While growing up I was influenced by the counterculture of the 60s – there formed a gap between me and my parents. When the glue of family ties is weakened we may be attracted to a group that seems to satisfy our sense of belonging. But after being in TWI for some 12 years – I became disillusioned with them – and it took me some time to figure out why. Basically it amounts to there being nothing like the real thing when it comes to family ties - even as imperfect as they may be and as hurtful as they may be at times - there is a real connection there. Blood is thicker than water as the expression goes.
In general, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with groups (churches, organizations, friends, etc.) that help you see the value in life or even just help you cope with life. I think my weak family ties made me vulnerable – set me up as a target – for the leader of a pseudo-family. Yes, wierwille in all his narcissistic glory was the “patriarch” of this pseudo-family. His pet saying of “I have no friends when it comes to the word” speaks volumes about his exaggerated feeling of self-importance and his lack of empathy to how others felt. wierwille’s pet dictum really covers it all – "I have no friends - or ties to an earthly family for that matter - when it comes to the word"…really ? where does it say that in the Bible? Chapter and verse please.
The twisted version of self-sacrifice I learned during my 12 year involvement with TWI was that I was expected to put the priorities of The Way International ahead of everything else in my life. Actual family ties you may have are subjugated by the “reality of your spiritual family” (contrary to the bogus claim on the back of the PFAL sign up card “develops more harmony in the home”). . it's a variation of the previously mentioned dictum: don’t let anyone – not even your earthly family come between you and your spiritual family of The Way International.... how many marriages, families and friends were split up because a TWI follower was "taking a stand on the word"? and you know there were a lot of situations where upper leadership put the pressure on folks to make a choice between staying with The Way International or staying with their spouse who didn't see eye to eye with upper leadership.
Sure glad I left that mess. In my ever evolving opinion, when it comes to family stuff - I see in the Bible a lot of stuff about reconciliation ( the prodigal son for example...or better yet, how about seeing reconciliation as having a higher priority than even worship in Matthew 5:23, 24 ) . I believe having patience, being supportive...having forgiveness, and empathy towards others...especially family members is a big deal.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Twinky
While we're thinking about the strength of family, perhaps some wannabes might take into account Eli and his sons. Eli wasn't particularly a wicked priest/leader. He was lazy in his Godly responsibilities, didn't serve the congregation well and - among other things - he didn't adequately bring up his sons and allowed them to go astray - all the while during a time they purported to be priests themselves. Read 1 Sam 2, where it started with theft of offerings and donations, and went on to become forced sex with the women. Eli lived to see his sons receive God's justice, then died himself. And the famous priest/leader Samuel, no relation whatsoever, took Eli's place.
Families are good. They can maintain good standards and values. And they can harbour very bad standards and values.
I don't know enough about the wider Wierwille family to know if they're good or bad - I don't care to know, they're irrelevant to me. Some, many, are involved in CFFM; I think some are still involved in TWI. God will assess them on their own individual hearts and lives - not on whether or not they came from a "good" family. That's all I care to know about them: do they, to the best of their ability, live their lives honestly before God?
I wonder about JY and M's family. When I knew the couple, I really liked them both. But that was several decades ago. No doubt they have kids now, and maybe even grandkids. Things have changed for both them and for me, now. Have they brought up kids they way TWI taught - or with genuine parental love, care and compassion? Do their family members "stand with them"?
Well. Peace.
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