But then again......how many staffers simply stay the course, because where else does a 63 year old go to find a new job?
That and can an old dog learn new tricks? . . . okay folks, time to retire, off you go! And btw, check the reality you've held for 40-plus years at the door, we'll keep that too.
If you want to call it music. TWI was made a laughing stock on The Soup when they played "The Renewed Mind is the Key to Power" which was a non melodic song with ridiculous dance moves. Was also on U Tube until TWI tried to take it down. Can still be seen if googled I think.
Within the ranks of twi........their spiritual legitimacy and moral authority are waning.
Sure, those of us who have been outspoken about this, and those who have been paying attention....have seen this coming for a long, long time. But, I believe.....with Rosalie stepping down at the end of this year, and anemic enthusiasm for advanced class grads to "come to headquarters and work on staff" promotions, and more corps refusing and defiant to walk in lockstep......the gig is over. Let the Wierwille Memorial Museum phase begin....
Your post got me thinking – maybe TWI’s power to hold onto devoted followers has been on the decline ever since vp passed away…many cults are centered around a charismatic leader – vp was certainly that – “…if ever a wiz there was…”; there’s probably a lot of reasons for the mass exodus in ’86 – but maybe the biggest reason was simply that THE STAR of the show died!
What was the name of that song - “Star of the Show” (?) by one of TWI’s bands that sang it's you Lord that gets the top billing. Many of us may have sung along in agreement while idols of the heart (Ezekiel 14:3) - hidden by an elaborate cloaking device – kept the reverence for vp below the “inappropriate radar”; vp is the one who started the veiled idolatry – ideas like: we respect the man of God out of respect for God…we respect what the man of God says out of respect for the word of God that he speaks…After a while of thinking this way maybe it all gets lost in the sauce.
vp did not get up from the grave three days after his death…however there remains the Wholly Spirit (of lies) at the top of the heap who will bring “all things vp” to one’s remembrance.
In my opinion the succeeding presidents lacked the compelling charm to keep folks devoted to the cause – so they resorted to “martial law”. What vp accomplished by finesse subsequent leaders must do by force. But coercion and compulsion take a lot more energy to maintain that pressure – and that’s why I think TWI is slowly running out of steam. I mean - how much mileage can one get out of a departed sexual predator with a flair for plagiarism.
TWI’s legitimacy and authority were self-conferred by vp…and now that he’s gone, no one – - and I repeat, no one can take the place of the absent vp.
In my opinion the succeeding presidents lacked the compelling charm to keep folks devoted to the cause – so they resorted to “martial law”. What vp accomplished by finesse subsequent leaders must do by force. But coercion and compulsion take a lot more energy to maintain that pressure – and that’s why I think TWI is slowly running out of steam. I mean - how much mileage can one get out of a departed sexual predator with a flair for plagiarism.
TWI’s legitimacy and authority were self-conferred [contrived or conjured] by vp…and now that he’s gone, no one – - and I repeat, no one can take the place of the absent vp.
Your post got me thinking – maybe TWI’s power to hold onto devoted followers has been on the decline ever since vp passed away…many cults are centered around a charismatic leader – vp was certainly that – “…if ever a wiz there was…”; there’s probably a lot of reasons for the mass exodus in ’86 – but maybe the biggest reason was simply that THE STAR of the show died!
What was the name of that song - “Star of the Show” (?) by one of TWI’s bands that sang it's you Lord that gets the top billing. Many of us may have sung along in agreement while idols of the heart (Ezekiel 14:3) - hidden by an elaborate cloaking device – kept the reverence for vp below the “inappropriate radar”; vp is the one who started the veiled idolatry – ideas like: we respect the man of God out of respect for God…we respect what the man of God says out of respect for the word of God that he speaks…After a while of thinking this way maybe it all gets lost in the sauce.
vp did not get up from the grave three days after his death…however there remains the Wholly Spirit (of lies) at the top of the heap who will bring “all things vp” to one’s remembrance.
In my opinion the succeeding presidents lacked the compelling charm to keep folks devoted to the cause – so they resorted to “martial law”. What vp accomplished by finesse subsequent leaders must do by force. But coercion and compulsion take a lot more energy to maintain that pressure – and that’s why I think TWI is slowly running out of steam. I mean - how much mileage can one get out of a departed sexual predator with a flair for plagiarism.
TWI’s legitimacy and authority were self-conferred by vp…and now that he’s gone, no one – - and I repeat, no one can take the place of the absent vp.
Yeah, T-Bone......."there's probably a lot of reasons for the mass exodus in '86......"
Besides the deception, coercion, and the compulsion to "keep up appearances with our peers".......we just were NOT teenagers anymore. With spouses and kids in tow, and bills to pay, and growing responsibilities.......we outgrew the "go WOW, now" hype. Every year, the teachings were so damn repetitive. And, it became apparent that the whole thing was little more than a multi-level marketing scheme to sell soap and send monies to twi-hq.......and the only power manifested was that of obeying wierwille doctrine.
The echo chamber became a "house of horrors" on Halloween night.....with screaming and gnashing of teeth.
Besides the deception, coercion, and the compulsion to "keep up appearances with our peers".......we just were NOT teenagers anymore. With spouses and kids in tow, and bills to pay, and growing responsibilities.......we outgrew the "go WOW, now" hype.
Man, I wish the adults in my life had felt that way. Doubled down instead.
TWI’s legitimacy and authority were self-conferred [contrived or conjured] by vp…and now that he’s gone, no one – - and I repeat, no one can take the place of the absent vp.
Rocky, I like your revision !
8 hours ago, skyrider said:
Yeah, T-Bone......."there's probably a lot of reasons for the mass exodus in '86......"
Besides the deception, coercion, and the compulsion to "keep up appearances with our peers".......we just were NOT teenagers anymore. With spouses and kids in tow, and bills to pay, and growing responsibilities.......we outgrew the "go WOW, now" hype. Every year, the teachings were so damn repetitive. And, it became apparent that the whole thing was little more than a multi-level marketing scheme to sell soap and send monies to twi-hq.......and the only power manifested was that of obeying wierwille doctrine.
The echo chamber became a "house of horrors" on Halloween night.....with screaming and gnashing of teeth.
Skyrider,
regarding the bigger picture – I think your perspective (from seasoned way corps) is perhaps a more visceral approach – and I might add a key element to understanding TWI’s dwindling power over folks. Keep in mind I was late to the party – I left in ’86 during my practicum year, so I was only a little over 2 years into the way corps program. I wasn’t worn down yet by the daily grind of responsibilities out in the field. At this stage, my intellect ignored any inconveniences, sacrifices, and practical matters in favor of mastering PFAL thru the “master’s” school.
In light of my previous tirade – I think it is ironic that among other things Chris G33r’s Passing of a Patriarch was a way to use vp’s supposed spiritual stature to challenge LCM’s leadership. Looking back now - it seems like there was more of a concern over what vp thought of things than there was an interest in finding a biblical solution...Perhaps the back-and-forth of me deciding on who had the best or right take on vp’s “legacy” got me to step back enough and begin questioning different aspects of that legacy – eventually even questioning the facade known as Doctor Wierwille.
The TWI mindset can be very imaginative and futile in trying to handle a problem in the real world....I believe the TWI mindset can be even more frustrating when there’s a crisis within way-world.
Man, I wish the adults in my life had felt that way. Doubled down instead.
Ditto.
--------------
What I've witnessed since the 80s, TWI's "legitimacy" has more to do with arguments with those outside TWI. Wayfers can't win an argument with someone outside of TWI, they run to Wayworld, where the image of VPW justifies their worthless thoughts. JMO.
regarding the bigger picture – I think your perspective (from seasoned way corps) is perhaps a more visceral approach – and I might add a key element to understanding TWI’s dwindling power over folks. Keep in mind I was late to the party – I left in ’86 during my practicum year, so I was only a little over 2 years into the way corps program. I wasn’t worn down yet by the daily grind of responsibilities out in the field.
[...snip]
Well......seeing other corps exit, limb coordinators and reverends no less, grabbed my attention early on.
1) In 1978, my limb coordinator Rev. John Cl@y [4th corps] was exiting twi......and didn't attend year's end roa.
2) In 1981, my department coordinator at hq, Rev. Mike Sm!th [1st corps] was making preparations to head to Alaska and distance himself from any more corps assignments. Howard Allen requested that he stay on until Living Victoriously was over [....and he did], and then promptly slip. Never saw him again.
3) In 1980, I spent time with Rev. Steve S@nn [4th corps] at hq. Wierwille coerced this field corps leadership to hq for "re-education camp" to kowtow to further training. Steve despised how wierwille used his authoritarian rule over them to humiliate and oppress. He couldn't wait to get outta headquarters.....back on the field.
I pondered these situations and much, much more..........and couldn't help but see that proactive corps grads were NOT buying the wierwille spiel of "a lifetime of twi-servitude."
Well......seeing other corps exit, limb coordinators and reverends no less, grabbed my attention early on.
1) In 1978, my limb coordinator Rev. John Cl@y [4th corps] was exiting twi......and didn't attend year's end roa.
2) In 1981, my department coordinator at hq, Rev. Mike Sm!th [1st corps] was making preparations to head to Alaska and distance himself from any more corps assignments. Howard Allen requested that he stay on until Living Victoriously was over [....and he did], and then promptly slip. Never saw him again.
3) In 1980, I spent time with Rev. Steve S@nn [4th corps] at hq. Wierwille coerced this field corps leadership to hq for "re-education camp" to kowtow to further training. Steve despised how wierwille used his authoritarian rule over them to humiliate and oppress. He couldn't wait to get outta headquarters.....back on the field.
I pondered these situations and much, much more..........and couldn't help but see that proactive corps grads were NOT buying the wierwille spiel of "a lifetime of twi-servitude."
And further.....
About 25 years ago.......I read this interesting article about "Clergy look for Alternative Careers." The article honed in on statistics that it took about 15 years for salaried clergy to call it quits. From what I remember, it cited that constrictions, the repetition, and the bureaucracy of church governance that compelled clergy to find secular employment elsewhere. 15 years. And, these were salaried employees.
What about corps and adv class grads who do ALL THIS WORK for free....always in subservient roles?
Just seems to me that there are certain types of people who like the institutionalized version that they wrap themselves around [i.e. twi's cult-centered version].......while others, like me, see the whole outfit as a constraining, deceptive thugocracy. When wierwille died, lots of folks bolted. Seemingly, they stayed around to "save face" and stuff like that. With Rosalie stepping down, will other leadership bolt?
Seems you've made reference to Mike's departure a couple of times in various threads. But I suspect there was much more of a push (or kick) behind that jump than you realize. Things just weren't always as they appeared to be.
great posts !!!! I’ve always appreciated the various factors that you and others get into on so many TWI topics. I think anything that helps one get a deeper understanding of it all is extremely helpful. Sometimes I feel like I can almost wrap my head around the human condition when it’s presented in bite-size pieces…Thanks!
Seems you've made reference to Mike's departure a couple of times in various threads. But I suspect there was much more of a push (or kick) behind that jump than you realize. Things just weren't always as they appeared to be.
Go ahead......."suspect there was much more" all you want.
I worked alongside him for about 14 months and was privy to lots of insight. And yeah, he wasn't the only one heading to Alaska.......Steve and Beth L0wder [family connections, iirc] were going as well. Career opportunities? Distancing themselves from twi? A combination of several things? Yep.
Isn't that the way most of us make our decisions......a culmination of several things? lol
great posts !!!! I’ve always appreciated the various factors that you and others get into on so many TWI topics. I think anything that helps one get a deeper understanding of it all is extremely helpful. Sometimes I feel like I can almost wrap my head around the human condition when it’s presented in bite-size pieces…Thanks!
T-Bone......my days of posting on GSC are drawing to a close. At times, when I think "....that's enough, I'm done" ---- you come along and spur me on with your appreciation for posting my experiences and insight.
You know, I sometimes find it amazing that I had contact and personal interactions with ALL FOUR twi-presidents 1) Wierwille, 2) Martindale, 3) Rivenbark and soon-to-be 4) De Lisle. Not just a brush here or there......but actual experiences. Heck, my fiancé and I were invited to the wierwille home for dinner at the end of my interim year. I sat with wierwille on his motorcoach on three different afternoon sessions as I related my deprogramming experience to him....so that he could write his "By The Way" articles in the St. Marys Evening Leader. And, martindale performed our wedding......besides a host of many experiences and encounters with him. And, Rivenbark.....several occasions of interactions, and I helped bader one afternoon working on her home. And De Lisle......know him, counselled him and performed his and Michele's wedding in September, 1988.
At this point in time, I know full well that WayGB know who I am.....and keep tabs on my posts. Heck, with Jean-Yves groomed to sit in the prez chair......anything I post will be sent directly to him from now on. Sad, really......that he succumbed to the fateful indoctrination that is anti (against) Christ and was unable to connect the dots. Whereas wierwille and rivenbark were calculating and deceptive to the core.....martindale and de lisle fell into the trap of believing the mog-doctrine [imo]. For that, De Lisle is the presumptive ploy by rivenbark to select him as president-elect. He's been headquarters-groomed for 28 years.
T-Bone......my days of posting on GSC are drawing to a close....
Darn!....well…I can understand…and respect that…but if anything would extend your days at Grease Spot a little longer just bear in mind it’s been the input from seasoned folks with a variety of programs, assignments, and experiences under their belt that help keep me from wallowing in my own pet theories for too long.
Star of the Show was by Pressed Down, Shaken Together, and Running Over(old school Way Productions). New theme should be Welcome to the hotel Wierwille, such a crappy place(apologies to The Eagles).
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Rocky
Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?
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Bolshevik
That and can an old dog learn new tricks? . . . okay folks, time to retire, off you go! And btw, check the reality you've held for 40-plus years at the door, we'll keep that too.
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freeone
Wow this is interesting! Hard to believe anyone is left there, the music is the same as it was 20+ years ago when I was there!
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outandabout
If you want to call it music. TWI was made a laughing stock on The Soup when they played "The Renewed Mind is the Key to Power" which was a non melodic song with ridiculous dance moves. Was also on U Tube until TWI tried to take it down. Can still be seen if googled I think.
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T-Bone
Your post got me thinking – maybe TWI’s power to hold onto devoted followers has been on the decline ever since vp passed away…many cults are centered around a charismatic leader – vp was certainly that – “…if ever a wiz there was…”; there’s probably a lot of reasons for the mass exodus in ’86 – but maybe the biggest reason was simply that THE STAR of the show died!
What was the name of that song - “Star of the Show” (?) by one of TWI’s bands that sang it's you Lord that gets the top billing. Many of us may have sung along in agreement while idols of the heart (Ezekiel 14:3) - hidden by an elaborate cloaking device – kept the reverence for vp below the “inappropriate radar”; vp is the one who started the veiled idolatry – ideas like: we respect the man of God out of respect for God…we respect what the man of God says out of respect for the word of God that he speaks…After a while of thinking this way maybe it all gets lost in the sauce.
vp did not get up from the grave three days after his death…however there remains the Wholly Spirit (of lies) at the top of the heap who will bring “all things vp” to one’s remembrance.
In my opinion the succeeding presidents lacked the compelling charm to keep folks devoted to the cause – so they resorted to “martial law”. What vp accomplished by finesse subsequent leaders must do by force. But coercion and compulsion take a lot more energy to maintain that pressure – and that’s why I think TWI is slowly running out of steam. I mean - how much mileage can one get out of a departed sexual predator with a flair for plagiarism.
TWI’s legitimacy and authority were self-conferred by vp…and now that he’s gone, no one – - and I repeat, no one can take the place of the absent vp.
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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Rocky
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skyrider
Yeah, T-Bone......."there's probably a lot of reasons for the mass exodus in '86......"
Besides the deception, coercion, and the compulsion to "keep up appearances with our peers".......we just were NOT teenagers anymore. With spouses and kids in tow, and bills to pay, and growing responsibilities.......we outgrew the "go WOW, now" hype. Every year, the teachings were so damn repetitive. And, it became apparent that the whole thing was little more than a multi-level marketing scheme to sell soap and send monies to twi-hq.......and the only power manifested was that of obeying wierwille doctrine.
The echo chamber became a "house of horrors" on Halloween night.....with screaming and gnashing of teeth.
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shortfuse
Man, I wish the adults in my life had felt that way. Doubled down instead.
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T-Bone
Rocky, I like your revision !
Skyrider,
regarding the bigger picture – I think your perspective (from seasoned way corps) is perhaps a more visceral approach – and I might add a key element to understanding TWI’s dwindling power over folks. Keep in mind I was late to the party – I left in ’86 during my practicum year, so I was only a little over 2 years into the way corps program. I wasn’t worn down yet by the daily grind of responsibilities out in the field. At this stage, my intellect ignored any inconveniences, sacrifices, and practical matters in favor of mastering PFAL thru the “master’s” school.
In light of my previous tirade – I think it is ironic that among other things Chris G33r’s Passing of a Patriarch was a way to use vp’s supposed spiritual stature to challenge LCM’s leadership. Looking back now - it seems like there was more of a concern over what vp thought of things than there was an interest in finding a biblical solution...Perhaps the back-and-forth of me deciding on who had the best or right take on vp’s “legacy” got me to step back enough and begin questioning different aspects of that legacy – eventually even questioning the facade known as Doctor Wierwille.
The TWI mindset can be very imaginative and futile in trying to handle a problem in the real world....I believe the TWI mindset can be even more frustrating when there’s a crisis within way-world.
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Bolshevik
Ditto.
--------------
What I've witnessed since the 80s, TWI's "legitimacy" has more to do with arguments with those outside TWI. Wayfers can't win an argument with someone outside of TWI, they run to Wayworld, where the image of VPW justifies their worthless thoughts. JMO.
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penworks
Has this new prez been announced in the local newspapers? Is there an inauguration ceremony planned? Do we get invitations by mail or email? :-)
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skyrider
Well......seeing other corps exit, limb coordinators and reverends no less, grabbed my attention early on.
1) In 1978, my limb coordinator Rev. John Cl@y [4th corps] was exiting twi......and didn't attend year's end roa.
2) In 1981, my department coordinator at hq, Rev. Mike Sm!th [1st corps] was making preparations to head to Alaska and distance himself from any more corps assignments. Howard Allen requested that he stay on until Living Victoriously was over [....and he did], and then promptly slip. Never saw him again.
3) In 1980, I spent time with Rev. Steve S@nn [4th corps] at hq. Wierwille coerced this field corps leadership to hq for "re-education camp" to kowtow to further training. Steve despised how wierwille used his authoritarian rule over them to humiliate and oppress. He couldn't wait to get outta headquarters.....back on the field.
I pondered these situations and much, much more..........and couldn't help but see that proactive corps grads were NOT buying the wierwille spiel of "a lifetime of twi-servitude."
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skyrider
I think Rosalie is sending you a special vip-invite and first-class ticket, penworks. You should have a front row seat.
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penworks
Think she'd like a signed copy of my book? It'll be out soon. :-)
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T-Bone
If you don't get an invite you might try telling them you're a writer for The Undertow - and maybe they'll issue you a press pass.
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skyrider
And further.....
About 25 years ago.......I read this interesting article about "Clergy look for Alternative Careers." The article honed in on statistics that it took about 15 years for salaried clergy to call it quits. From what I remember, it cited that constrictions, the repetition, and the bureaucracy of church governance that compelled clergy to find secular employment elsewhere. 15 years. And, these were salaried employees.
What about corps and adv class grads who do ALL THIS WORK for free....always in subservient roles?
Just seems to me that there are certain types of people who like the institutionalized version that they wrap themselves around [i.e. twi's cult-centered version].......while others, like me, see the whole outfit as a constraining, deceptive thugocracy. When wierwille died, lots of folks bolted. Seemingly, they stayed around to "save face" and stuff like that. With Rosalie stepping down, will other leadership bolt?
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TLC
Seems you've made reference to Mike's departure a couple of times in various threads. But I suspect there was much more of a push (or kick) behind that jump than you realize. Things just weren't always as they appeared to be.
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T-Bone
Skyrider,
great posts !!!! I’ve always appreciated the various factors that you and others get into on so many TWI topics. I think anything that helps one get a deeper understanding of it all is extremely helpful. Sometimes I feel like I can almost wrap my head around the human condition when it’s presented in bite-size pieces…Thanks!
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skyrider
Go ahead......."suspect there was much more" all you want.
I worked alongside him for about 14 months and was privy to lots of insight. And yeah, he wasn't the only one heading to Alaska.......Steve and Beth L0wder [family connections, iirc] were going as well. Career opportunities? Distancing themselves from twi? A combination of several things? Yep.
Isn't that the way most of us make our decisions......a culmination of several things? lol
Edited by skyridertypo
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skyrider
T-Bone......my days of posting on GSC are drawing to a close. At times, when I think "....that's enough, I'm done" ---- you come along and spur me on with your appreciation for posting my experiences and insight.
You know, I sometimes find it amazing that I had contact and personal interactions with ALL FOUR twi-presidents 1) Wierwille, 2) Martindale, 3) Rivenbark and soon-to-be 4) De Lisle. Not just a brush here or there......but actual experiences. Heck, my fiancé and I were invited to the wierwille home for dinner at the end of my interim year. I sat with wierwille on his motorcoach on three different afternoon sessions as I related my deprogramming experience to him....so that he could write his "By The Way" articles in the St. Marys Evening Leader. And, martindale performed our wedding......besides a host of many experiences and encounters with him. And, Rivenbark.....several occasions of interactions, and I helped bader one afternoon working on her home. And De Lisle......know him, counselled him and performed his and Michele's wedding in September, 1988.
At this point in time, I know full well that WayGB know who I am.....and keep tabs on my posts. Heck, with Jean-Yves groomed to sit in the prez chair......anything I post will be sent directly to him from now on. Sad, really......that he succumbed to the fateful indoctrination that is anti (against) Christ and was unable to connect the dots. Whereas wierwille and rivenbark were calculating and deceptive to the core.....martindale and de lisle fell into the trap of believing the mog-doctrine [imo]. For that, De Lisle is the presumptive ploy by rivenbark to select him as president-elect. He's been headquarters-groomed for 28 years.
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T-Bone
Darn!....well…I can understand…and respect that…but if anything would extend your days at Grease Spot a little longer just bear in mind it’s been the input from seasoned folks with a variety of programs, assignments, and experiences under their belt that help keep me from wallowing in my own pet theories for too long.
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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outandabout
I've always liked your posts, Skyrider. I'm sorry to see you go! All the best to you.
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waysider
When I was a kid, my dad used to say "When ya gotta go, ya gotta go."
(I think he might have meant something else.)
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Star of the Show was by Pressed Down, Shaken Together, and Running Over(old school Way Productions). New theme should be Welcome to the hotel Wierwille, such a crappy place(apologies to The Eagles).
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