I'd like to pose another question, if anyone feels inclined to answer. Regarding the leaders at the lowest level, (that currently just lead a home ministry group), do they try to control their group members similar to those at a higher level?
Hi Brainstormer - yes they can. I think they do a lot of "shaping" at the home fellowship level. Let's face it, Jesse is already wanting to go out and do what we used to call WoW. I have no idea what they call it now. So did I based on all the glowing stories - until I read my husband's WoW "rule book" - where I became convinced that even Jesus couldn't live the life that was expected demanded of them. Encourage her to find out specifics about expectations, because (if memory serves me correctly) it's pretty structured and the leadership gets pretty ugly upset when performance is down.
As an adult, this is totally her life and her choice. You love her, but she really has to work through this - all by herself. Hard as it is, let her, but don't let her guilt you into financing her choices. And that's the hard part - they quit a good job and then come to you and family members to subsidize them. But obviously, do all this in love and just be there.
Regarding the leaders at the lowest level, (that currently just lead a home ministry group), do they try to control their group members similar to those at a higher level?
Possibly not as badly, but each one reports to his/her higher leadership and takes instruction as to how to deal with situations. Where Jessie shows enthusiasm, there will be instruction to encourage that. If Jessie starts flagging in enthusiasm, there'll be instruction to find out why.
Of course, a lot depends on what the home fellowship leader does actually tell the higher level person. And that depends on how experienced (and therefore autonomous) the home fellowship leader is.
Going out "WoW" or "Fellow Laborers" or "Way Disciple" or whatever they call it now does have rules. Some are better than others. Be in bed by midnight every night; pray in the morning before going out; have meetings in the home several times a week. Work only four hours a day; spend the rest of the day out witnessing or in home fellowships. Tithe 10% of your meagre earnings from your 4-hr/day job. Travel to your new location (and back again) at your own expense, pay your rent and deposit and all expenses yourself. Stay in your area for the entire 12 or 6 months, whatever the period is; don't go home for holiday periods or family events (like weddings) - might get permission for a funeral. No smoking, drinking, drugs or friends outside the group. Be under scrutiny the whole time; expect every action to be remarked upon and perhaps reported higher up. There is no choice in who is put in what group; do not expect that all members in your FL group are spiritually aware, mentally stable, or even just plain nice to be with.
With the right people, it can be enormous fun and genuinely a time of growth. With the wrong people, it can be horrifyingly bad. As group members are so isolated, there is little opportunity to talk through less desirable experiences except with the group leader (who may actually be the cause of the less desirable experiences). Some people have been known to run away in the middle of the night (the only time they're alone).
I'd like to pose another question, if anyone feels inclined to answer. Regarding the leaders at the lowest level, (that currently just lead a home ministry group), do they try to control their group members similar to those at a higher level?
Your son/daughter will be used as an example to other followers of The Way. Whatever, youthful, qualities your son/daughter possesses, The Way will attribute to themselves. Wayfers will look at any positive qualities you've put into your son/daughter and attribute them to The Way.
Your son/daughter, on the other hand, will be told by leaders that the local followers look to him/her as a source of inspiration. Your son/daughter will feel compelled to follow strict orders and make all (false) impressions possible, thinking it is for the sake of others who truly need it.
In that way both local and HQ leaders can manipulate group members.
. Stay in your area for the entire 12 or 6 months, whatever the period is; don't go home for holiday periods or family events (like weddings) - might get permission for a funeral.
One of the many red flags I seen in my association with wow's was that while they were in my town one's Mother died.
I sat in wonder while I watched this gal beg on the phone for PERMISSION to attend her Mothers funeral!
From what I could tell they grudgingly gave PERMISSION, gave her t date to be back and assisted no further.
Very Christian of them!
I hope your Son or Daughter catches these red flags.
Ask the regular folks at fellowship, "what happens when someone decides to leave?" Can someone be a part of this outfit and leave without being shamed?
I joined the group as a college student, sharp, top of my class, and I'd say with good intentions to make a positive impact with my life. I wasn't hurting anyone, wasn't down on myself, wasn't wasting away or on the verge of suicide. And I certainly wasn't wallowing in vomit. When I left, people were told that I returned to said "vomit" and was worthless. What was the difference in between? 27 years of involvement in The Way. If I was horrible, to be avoided at all costs, a imbecile without purpose ... where did I formulate those traits?
If a good decent person cannot leave The Way without being a horrible person, it isn't a worthy organization.
Ask the regular folks at fellowship, "what happens when someone decides to leave?" Can someone be a part of this outfit and leave without being shamed?
I joined the group as a college student, sharp, top of my class, and I'd say with good intentions to make a positive impact with my life. I wasn't hurting anyone, wasn't down on myself, wasn't wasting away or on the verge of suicide. And I certainly wasn't wallowing in vomit. When I left, people were told that I returned to said "vomit" and was worthless. What was the difference in between? 27 years of involvement in The Way. If I was horrible, to be avoided at all costs, a imbecile without purpose ... where did I formulate those traits?
If a good decent person cannot leave The Way without being a horrible person, it isn't a worthy organization.
BAM! I think you hit the nail squarely on the head.
Ask the regular folks at fellowship, "what happens when someone decides to leave?" Can someone be a part of this outfit and leave without being shamed?
Yep......THAT is the question that got my critical thought processes churning back in 1978 while in-rez.
It all adds up to more questions......namely, "When does a religion become a cult?"
Check out this link for in-depth analysis ----- Untoward Secrecy
Ask the regular folks at fellowship, "what happens when someone decides to leave?" Can someone be a part of this outfit and leave without being shamed?
I joined the group as a college student, sharp, top of my class, and I'd say with good intentions to make a positive impact with my life. I wasn't hurting anyone, wasn't down on myself, wasn't wasting away or on the verge of suicide. And I certainly wasn't wallowing in vomit. When I left, people were told that I returned to said "vomit" and was worthless. What was the difference in between? 27 years of involvement in The Way. If I was horrible, to be avoided at all costs, a imbecile without purpose ... where did I formulate those traits?
If a good decent person cannot leave The Way without being a horrible person, it isn't a worthy organization.
3 hours ago, skyrider said:
Yep......THAT is the question that got my critical thought processes churning back in 1978 while in-rez.
It all adds up to more questions......namely, "When does a religion become a cult?"
Check out this link for in-depth analysis ----- Untoward Secrecy
yes !!!!! that question is a big deal !!!!
and i think something related to that is while you are involved with TWI - and the longer you stick around the more you learn what they think of people on the outside - they're just empties floating by....and tripped out believers are almost considered just as low.
i tend to think all these "little" negative...critical assessments of those not within the fold (as well as any other unsavory experiences one might have) may have an accumulative effect that slowly "cocks the hammer" on one's critical thinking process - then all it takes is one event or some crisis to pull the trigger - - and then your mind is off and running - chasing down a thousand suspicious trails....for me it was the aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch.
maybe it's a part of growing up....no matter how much you warn your kids about the dangers and risks in life - they still want to find out some things for themselves.
I suppose one could argue that Bapsy's contribution to this thread was technically "off-topic," as it did not spring from the original post or the subsequent discussion. But I do believe, after reviewing the thread, that we're on related topics that, while not explicitly connected, can be connected without much of a mental stretch. So I'm letting the thread continue as is.
Bapsy, Welcome to GSC. Please be advised that you are welcome, entitled and encouraged to start a new thread topic if you don't see a topic already being covered in an existing or recent thread topic. It helps all of us keep track of conversations. As far as newbie errors go, this one was so minor that I won't even bother correcting it.
And Brainstormer, as an atheist I am keeping my mouth shut about your questions. I do think the other Christians on this board have provided effective encouragement, and I wish you well.
The shaming of those who leave is a way that they keep you in. You don't want to be besmirched if you leave. When I did leave, I realized I didn't care what people said. I wasn't there to hear it. Wayworld was no longer my world.
While TWI purports to be about the "accuracy and integrity of God's Word," I believe the bottom line is that's just a ruse. Not that anyone (while in the cult) consciously believes otherwise, from a personal, sociological perspective people stay because they feel (yes, feel) a sense of belonging.
It would be intriguing to get an idea of how people at the home fellowship level respond to the question about leaving, if there could be a way to capture that feedback.
I'd like to pose another question, if anyone feels inclined to answer. Regarding the leaders at the lowest level, (that currently just lead a home ministry group), do they try to control their group members similar to those at a higher level?
IMHO, at least in my experience,
that's true-but only to a point. The draw for the group is at the lowest level. The higher up the ladder you go, the more control and manipulation there is. So, at the lowest level, the control is lesser because otherwise, they'd never draw any new suckers into their web. So, any control has to be more muted, more subtle. If the bottom-rung leader is actually a nice person (still possible, but less likely), the manipulation is even less because they're not always aware when standard twi tactics ARE control tactics. So they don't MEAN to manipulate, so they do so by accident.
and i think something related to that is while you are involved with TWI - and the longer you stick around the more you learn what they think of people on the outside - they're just empties floating by....and tripped out believers are almost considered just as low.
Yeah......the longer you stick around the more manipulative and vicious the confrontation(s) for those exiting. Most notably, corps and upper-tier leadership are savaged with verbal attacks and when they leave are slandered before the whole corps body. Twi quickly goes into DAMAGE CONTROL MODE and only one version, their side of things, is heard in their echo chamber of bobble-heads.
Wierwille would NOT allow any of his top men leave without confrontation. He verbally assaulted them on corps night calling them "cop-outs, flipped-outs, or possessed." It was this tactic that caught my attention back in 1978 during my in-residence year at Emporia.
Guilt, shaming, confrontations and the salt covenant......ALL are used to manipulate followers from exiting.
Open questions and dialogue are not allowed in twi. Hence, breathing life into Waydale and GSC.
Herein lies the problem for parents like us (and others who are trying to help). Jessie doesn't see any of the things that you describe at the home fellowship level or in the classes Jessie has taken. Previously, I've asked Jessie about people who leave and Jessie says that some people don't come back because it just isn't their thing. Jessie says there is no judgement placed on them. (I don't think Jessie has ever heard of mark and avoid.) Jessie has said that if someone leaves, they can still be friends with the people who remain in the Way. Could it possibly be that they have taken a kinder, gentler tone more recently with the goal of keeping some money flowing in? Or maybe Jessie just has nicer leadership? Just wondering...
Herein lies the problem for parents like us (and others who are trying to help). Jessie doesn't see any of the things that you describe at the home fellowship level or in the classes Jessie has taken. Previously, I've asked Jessie about people who leave and Jessie says that some people don't come back because it just isn't their thing. Jessie says there is no judgement placed on them. (I don't think Jessie has ever heard of mark and avoid.) Jessie has said that if someone leaves, they can still be friends with the people who remain in the Way. Could it possibly be that they have taken a kinder, gentler tone more recently with the goal of keeping some money flowing in? Or maybe Jessie just has nicer leadership? Just wondering...
TWI is mostly old-timers. At the very least, judgement is being thought of.
I wouldn't call it kinder, gentler. Tactics are just less overt and direct. If Jessie is intelligent, he/she will note inconsistencies. Over time, some level of frustration will build. They want people to implode on themselves, if they're becoming wise to the act.
Herein lies the problem for parents like us (and others who are trying to help). Jessie doesn't see any of the things that you describe at the home fellowship level or in the classes Jessie has taken. Previously, I've asked Jessie about people who leave and Jessie says that some people don't come back because it just isn't their thing. Jessie says there is no judgement placed on them. (I don't think Jessie has ever heard of mark and avoid.) Jessie has said that if someone leaves, they can still be friends with the people who remain in the Way. Could it possibly be that they have taken a kinder, gentler tone more recently with the goal of keeping some money flowing in?Ormaybe Jessie just has nicer leadership? Just wondering...
i left in '86 so i can't speak to the way things are run now (this addresses the first part "Could it possibly be that they have taken a kinder, gentler tone more recently") ... i tend to lean toward your second option (" maybe Jessie just has nicer leadership ") - - something i would identify with.
speaking frankly, i was never a type A person...i still shy away from management positions - just because i dislike being confrontational and i'm not good at being motivational or a sales type person either....so back in the day i was more into throwing my support for what was going on, tried to lead by example and usually would comfort those who were down in the dumps - not get all over their case....in TWI i held positions of twig (single fellowship), branch (city wide - overseer to fellowships) and area (includes more than one branch).
....for the record i don't have a good score with TWI as far as how many classes i ran, how many people i got in the class, or amount of money i collected to send to headquarters - - but i will say this - i treated folks with respect and even as equals....honestly felt i was under-qualified for most posts i served in....yeah - i went WOW (their missionary program), but i left in '86 while on my practicum year corps assignment - an area coordinator - and for awhile i still visited the fellowships in my area - but it got awkward explaining the reasons for me leaving my post (i was open and honest about upper leadership vying for power after the founder passed away and started expressed some doubts over how they handled parts of the Bible - this leadership crisis got my critical thinking process fired up big time!).
That's part of the reason i post at Grease Spot - i believe there's still lots of good people in TWI and it is my hope they come across this website and consider some of the things posted here.
I was heavily involved at the local level for about 3 years before I entered a commune type training program called FellowLaborers. You start out in The Way as a student. Next thing you know, you're helping to set up chairs for classes and helping with refreshments. Then, you find yourself coordinating a home fellowship. It continues to ramp up gradually. And, that's not necessarily so bad because, at the local level, people seem to care for each other. I met a lot of wonderful people while I was still involved at that level.
Here's the thing, though. At its core, The Way runs like a multi-level-marketing organization. There will be more and more pressure to take on added responsibilities and less freedom for simply enjoying life. There is always a push to move on to the next level.
The Way makes money on classes and book sales and various motivational events. That's not the end product, however. The main focus is on getting someone committed enough to give the organization a portion of each paycheck, month after month and year after year. It's called "abundant sharing". It's essentially a tithe plus an additional 5 or 10% tacked on. That's where the real money comes from. Last I heard, they were sitting on about 53 million dollars.
Let me be clear about one thing. The money only flows in one direction, toward the organization's headquarters. Now and then, a token gesture is made to give the appearance of being a charitable organization but, for the most part, the money never comes back to the local level. Past leadership has used the coffers to fund lavish vacations, purchase a private airplane, motor coaches, expensive motorcycles and several classic automobiles.
It reminds me of a well known MLM organization that claims to specialize in cleaning products. Everyone is so busy selling dealerships, they forget about the soap. With The Way, everyone is so busy selling 'the abundant life", no one seems to notice very few are living it.
So, to answer your question, It's possible to remain a casual attendee at a local level but, not condoned. to say the least.
Herein lies the problem for parents like us (and others who are trying to help). Jessie doesn't see any of the things that you describe at the home fellowship level or in the classes Jessie has taken. Previously, I've asked Jessie about people who leave and Jessie says that some people don't come back because it just isn't their thing. Jessie says there is no judgement placed on them. (I don't think Jessie has ever heard of mark and avoid.) Jessie has said that if someone leaves, they can still be friends with the people who remain in the Way. Could it possibly be that they have taken a kinder, gentler tone more recently with the goal of keeping some money flowing in? Or maybe Jessie just has nicer leadership? Just wondering...
Brainstormer.........from what I've gathered from your posts, your child "Jessie" seems to be in a situation with nice, good-hearted leadership. This is very common and understandable. From my experience, one can easily remain in this euphoria situation for many years........disregarding questions, alarming red-flags, personal career choices, long-term goals, financial well-being, etc.
Those of us who got involved in twi back in the early to mid-70s......the classes, the fellowships, the programs, and the annual "rock of ages" were swarming with a tide of fun-loving, young people. And, no internet (to check twi). In my opinion, it was much easier and elusive to get caught up in the utopian climate. But now......40 years later, WHAT HAPPENED to all those people? Hopefully, at some point in the not-too-distant future Jessie will step back and consider your questions. Where are the hundreds of people who went out on the wow ambassador program? the corps program? Why have some 475 ordained clergy exited?
I believe that twi has a culture of "untoward secrecy".......as noted in my earlier post. In their classes, twi immediately constructs a barrier between one's friends, family (parents) and associations......while anchoring the "spiritual" bond with twi and its followers. The deeper one remains involved, twi endeavors to control one's behavior, thoughts, associations, information and emotions. Soon, Jessie will see that to remain in good standing with twi......he/she "should" faithfully give 15% of income for the rest of his/her life, and attend fellowships at least twice per week. Against better judgment or personal gain, following leadership guidance must always be considered first. Oftentimes, to cycle thru all this takes 6-12 years (or longer) depending on multi-varied factors, situations and local leadership.
I speak from personal experience. I was one of those twi-clergy that exited.
(SNIP)...Here's the thing, though. At its core, The Way runs like a multi-level-marketing organization. There will be more and more pressure to take on added responsibilities and less freedom for simply enjoying life. There is always a push to move on to the next level....(SNIP)
(SNIP)... So, to answer your question, It's possible to remain a casual attendee at a local level but, not condoned. to say the least.
this resonates with me big time!
and provides further details to my previous post - how someone like me who has no desire or qualifications to be a leader or have more responsibility / supervision / management over others -yet gets corralled into a leadership position...maybe some of you have experienced something similar - a leader blows smoke up your arse - to inflate your ego to the point you take more on.
Brainstormer.........from what I've gathered from your posts, your child "Jessie" seems to be in a situation with nice, good-hearted leadership. This is very common and understandable. From my experience, one can easily remain in this euphoria situation for many years........disregarding questions, alarming red-flags, personal career choices, long-term goals, financial well-being, etc.
Those of us who got involved in twi back in the early to mid-70s......the classes, the fellowships, the programs, and the annual "rock of ages" were swarming with a tide of fun-loving, young people. And, no internet (to check twi). In my opinion, it was much easier and elusive to get caught up in the utopian climate. But now......40 years later, WHAT HAPPENED to all those people? Hopefully, at some point in the not-too-distant future Jessie will step back and consider your questions. Where are the hundreds of people who went out on the wow ambassador program? the corps program? Why have some 475 ordained clergy exited?
I believe that twi has a culture of "untoward secrecy".......as noted in my earlier post. In their classes, twi immediately constructs a barrier between one's friends, family (parents) and associations......while anchoring the "spiritual" bond with twi and its followers. The deeper one remains involved, twi endeavors to control one's behavior, thoughts, associations, information and emotions. Soon, Jessie will see that to remain in good standing with twi......he/she "should" faithfully give 15% of income for the rest of his/her life, and attend fellowships at least twice per week. Against better judgment or personal gain, following leadership guidance must always be considered first. Oftentimes, to cycle thru all this takes 6-12 years (or longer) depending on multi-varied factors, situations and local leadership.
I speak from personal experience. I was one of those twi-clergy that exited.
It took me (in the 1970s and 1980s) 12 years to cycle through it. Btw, Skyrider, weren't there thousands of people who had gone out WoW?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
12
11
11
Popular Days
Sep 13
10
Sep 11
9
Sep 22
8
Sep 24
7
Top Posters In This Topic
Rocky 11 posts
T-Bone 12 posts
Bolshevik 11 posts
Brainstormer 11 posts
Popular Days
Sep 13 2016
10 posts
Sep 11 2016
9 posts
Sep 22 2016
8 posts
Sep 24 2016
7 posts
Popular Posts
Belle
I'm late to the party but wanted to share what I can to help you, Brainstormer. My heart goes out to you. I was in my early 20's when I got involved with TWI and my local fellowship was also butt
Happyasaclam
Something I wish someone had suggested to me ... Ask the regular folks at fellowship, "what happens when someone decides to leave?" Can someone be a part of this outfit and leave without being sham
CLOSE CALL
One of the many red flags I seen in my association with wow's was that while they were in my town one's Mother died. I sat in wonder while I watched this gal beg on the phone for PERMISSION to at
Brainstormer
I'd like to pose another question, if anyone feels inclined to answer. Regarding the leaders at the lowest level, (that currently just lead a home ministry group), do they try to control their group members similar to those at a higher level?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Hi Brainstormer - yes they can. I think they do a lot of "shaping" at the home fellowship level. Let's face it, Jesse is already wanting to go out and do what we used to call WoW. I have no idea what they call it now. So did I based on all the glowing stories - until I read my husband's WoW "rule book" - where I became convinced that even Jesus couldn't live the life that was
expecteddemanded of them. Encourage her to find out specifics about expectations, because (if memory serves me correctly) it's pretty structured and the leadership gets prettyuglyupset when performance is down.As an adult, this is totally her life and her choice. You love her, but she really has to work through this - all by herself. Hard as it is, let her, but don't let her guilt you into financing her choices. And that's the hard part - they quit a good job and then come to you and family members to subsidize them. But obviously, do all this in love and just be there.
Good luck to you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Possibly not as badly, but each one reports to his/her higher leadership and takes instruction as to how to deal with situations. Where Jessie shows enthusiasm, there will be instruction to encourage that. If Jessie starts flagging in enthusiasm, there'll be instruction to find out why.
Of course, a lot depends on what the home fellowship leader does actually tell the higher level person. And that depends on how experienced (and therefore autonomous) the home fellowship leader is.
Going out "WoW" or "Fellow Laborers" or "Way Disciple" or whatever they call it now does have rules. Some are better than others. Be in bed by midnight every night; pray in the morning before going out; have meetings in the home several times a week. Work only four hours a day; spend the rest of the day out witnessing or in home fellowships. Tithe 10% of your meagre earnings from your 4-hr/day job. Travel to your new location (and back again) at your own expense, pay your rent and deposit and all expenses yourself. Stay in your area for the entire 12 or 6 months, whatever the period is; don't go home for holiday periods or family events (like weddings) - might get permission for a funeral. No smoking, drinking, drugs or friends outside the group. Be under scrutiny the whole time; expect every action to be remarked upon and perhaps reported higher up. There is no choice in who is put in what group; do not expect that all members in your FL group are spiritually aware, mentally stable, or even just plain nice to be with.
With the right people, it can be enormous fun and genuinely a time of growth. With the wrong people, it can be horrifyingly bad. As group members are so isolated, there is little opportunity to talk through less desirable experiences except with the group leader (who may actually be the cause of the less desirable experiences). Some people have been known to run away in the middle of the night (the only time they're alone).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Your son/daughter will be used as an example to other followers of The Way. Whatever, youthful, qualities your son/daughter possesses, The Way will attribute to themselves. Wayfers will look at any positive qualities you've put into your son/daughter and attribute them to The Way.
Your son/daughter, on the other hand, will be told by leaders that the local followers look to him/her as a source of inspiration. Your son/daughter will feel compelled to follow strict orders and make all (false) impressions possible, thinking it is for the sake of others who truly need it.
In that way both local and HQ leaders can manipulate group members.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CLOSE CALL
One of the many red flags I seen in my association with wow's was that while they were in my town one's Mother died.
I sat in wonder while I watched this gal beg on the phone for PERMISSION to attend her Mothers funeral!
From what I could tell they grudgingly gave PERMISSION, gave her t date to be back and assisted no further.
Very Christian of them!
I hope your Son or Daughter catches these red flags.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Happyasaclam
Something I wish someone had suggested to me ...
Ask the regular folks at fellowship, "what happens when someone decides to leave?" Can someone be a part of this outfit and leave without being shamed?
I joined the group as a college student, sharp, top of my class, and I'd say with good intentions to make a positive impact with my life. I wasn't hurting anyone, wasn't down on myself, wasn't wasting away or on the verge of suicide. And I certainly wasn't wallowing in vomit. When I left, people were told that I returned to said "vomit" and was worthless. What was the difference in between? 27 years of involvement in The Way. If I was horrible, to be avoided at all costs, a imbecile without purpose ... where did I formulate those traits?
If a good decent person cannot leave The Way without being a horrible person, it isn't a worthy organization.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
BAM! I think you hit the nail squarely on the head.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yep......THAT is the question that got my critical thought processes churning back in 1978 while in-rez.
It all adds up to more questions......namely, "When does a religion become a cult?"
Check out this link for in-depth analysis ----- Untoward Secrecy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
yes !!!!! that question is a big deal !!!!
and i think something related to that is while you are involved with TWI - and the longer you stick around the more you learn what they think of people on the outside - they're just empties floating by....and tripped out believers are almost considered just as low.
i tend to think all these "little" negative...critical assessments of those not within the fold (as well as any other unsavory experiences one might have) may have an accumulative effect that slowly "cocks the hammer" on one's critical thinking process - then all it takes is one event or some crisis to pull the trigger - - and then your mind is off and running - chasing down a thousand suspicious trails....for me it was the aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch.
maybe it's a part of growing up....no matter how much you warn your kids about the dangers and risks in life - they still want to find out some things for themselves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
Don't you have that question backwards, sky?
Shouldn't it be, "When does a cult become a religion?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
modcat5
Responding publicly to a private message:
I suppose one could argue that Bapsy's contribution to this thread was technically "off-topic," as it did not spring from the original post or the subsequent discussion. But I do believe, after reviewing the thread, that we're on related topics that, while not explicitly connected, can be connected without much of a mental stretch. So I'm letting the thread continue as is.
Bapsy, Welcome to GSC. Please be advised that you are welcome, entitled and encouraged to start a new thread topic if you don't see a topic already being covered in an existing or recent thread topic. It helps all of us keep track of conversations. As far as newbie errors go, this one was so minor that I won't even bother correcting it.
And Brainstormer, as an atheist I am keeping my mouth shut about your questions. I do think the other Christians on this board have provided effective encouragement, and I wish you well.
Signed,
Raf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
When does sensation become perception?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outandabout
The shaming of those who leave is a way that they keep you in. You don't want to be besmirched if you leave. When I did leave, I realized I didn't care what people said. I wasn't there to hear it. Wayworld was no longer my world.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
While TWI purports to be about the "accuracy and integrity of God's Word," I believe the bottom line is that's just a ruse. Not that anyone (while in the cult) consciously believes otherwise, from a personal, sociological perspective people stay because they feel (yes, feel) a sense of belonging.
It would be intriguing to get an idea of how people at the home fellowship level respond to the question about leaving, if there could be a way to capture that feedback.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
IMHO, at least in my experience,
that's true-but only to a point. The draw for the group is at the lowest level. The higher up the ladder you go, the more control and manipulation there is. So, at the lowest level, the control is lesser because otherwise, they'd never draw any new suckers into their web. So, any control has to be more muted, more subtle. If the bottom-rung leader is actually a nice person (still possible, but less likely), the manipulation is even less because they're not always aware when standard twi tactics ARE control tactics. So they don't MEAN to manipulate, so they do so by accident.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bapsy
Check out this link " an open letter for those who are disillusioned with TWM by John P. Juedes"
http://www.caic.org.au/biblebase/way/open-ltr.htm
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yeah......the longer you stick around the more manipulative and vicious the confrontation(s) for those exiting. Most notably, corps and upper-tier leadership are savaged with verbal attacks and when they leave are slandered before the whole corps body. Twi quickly goes into DAMAGE CONTROL MODE and only one version, their side of things, is heard in their echo chamber of bobble-heads.
Wierwille would NOT allow any of his top men leave without confrontation. He verbally assaulted them on corps night calling them "cop-outs, flipped-outs, or possessed." It was this tactic that caught my attention back in 1978 during my in-residence year at Emporia.
Guilt, shaming, confrontations and the salt covenant......ALL are used to manipulate followers from exiting.
Open questions and dialogue are not allowed in twi. Hence, breathing life into Waydale and GSC.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brainstormer
Herein lies the problem for parents like us (and others who are trying to help). Jessie doesn't see any of the things that you describe at the home fellowship level or in the classes Jessie has taken. Previously, I've asked Jessie about people who leave and Jessie says that some people don't come back because it just isn't their thing. Jessie says there is no judgement placed on them. (I don't think Jessie has ever heard of mark and avoid.) Jessie has said that if someone leaves, they can still be friends with the people who remain in the Way. Could it possibly be that they have taken a kinder, gentler tone more recently with the goal of keeping some money flowing in? Or maybe Jessie just has nicer leadership? Just wondering...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
TWI is mostly old-timers. At the very least, judgement is being thought of.
I wouldn't call it kinder, gentler. Tactics are just less overt and direct. If Jessie is intelligent, he/she will note inconsistencies. Over time, some level of frustration will build. They want people to implode on themselves, if they're becoming wise to the act.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
i left in '86 so i can't speak to the way things are run now (this addresses the first part "Could it possibly be that they have taken a kinder, gentler tone more recently") ... i tend to lean toward your second option (" maybe Jessie just has nicer leadership ") - - something i would identify with.
speaking frankly, i was never a type A person...i still shy away from management positions - just because i dislike being confrontational and i'm not good at being motivational or a sales type person either....so back in the day i was more into throwing my support for what was going on, tried to lead by example and usually would comfort those who were down in the dumps - not get all over their case....in TWI i held positions of twig (single fellowship), branch (city wide - overseer to fellowships) and area (includes more than one branch).
....for the record i don't have a good score with TWI as far as how many classes i ran, how many people i got in the class, or amount of money i collected to send to headquarters - - but i will say this - i treated folks with respect and even as equals....honestly felt i was under-qualified for most posts i served in....yeah - i went WOW (their missionary program), but i left in '86 while on my practicum year corps assignment - an area coordinator - and for awhile i still visited the fellowships in my area - but it got awkward explaining the reasons for me leaving my post (i was open and honest about upper leadership vying for power after the founder passed away and started expressed some doubts over how they handled parts of the Bible - this leadership crisis got my critical thinking process fired up big time!).
That's part of the reason i post at Grease Spot - i believe there's still lots of good people in TWI and it is my hope they come across this website and consider some of the things posted here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I was heavily involved at the local level for about 3 years before I entered a commune type training program called FellowLaborers. You start out in The Way as a student. Next thing you know, you're helping to set up chairs for classes and helping with refreshments. Then, you find yourself coordinating a home fellowship. It continues to ramp up gradually. And, that's not necessarily so bad because, at the local level, people seem to care for each other. I met a lot of wonderful people while I was still involved at that level.
Here's the thing, though. At its core, The Way runs like a multi-level-marketing organization. There will be more and more pressure to take on added responsibilities and less freedom for simply enjoying life. There is always a push to move on to the next level.
The Way makes money on classes and book sales and various motivational events. That's not the end product, however. The main focus is on getting someone committed enough to give the organization a portion of each paycheck, month after month and year after year. It's called "abundant sharing". It's essentially a tithe plus an additional 5 or 10% tacked on. That's where the real money comes from. Last I heard, they were sitting on about 53 million dollars.
Let me be clear about one thing. The money only flows in one direction, toward the organization's headquarters. Now and then, a token gesture is made to give the appearance of being a charitable organization but, for the most part, the money never comes back to the local level. Past leadership has used the coffers to fund lavish vacations, purchase a private airplane, motor coaches, expensive motorcycles and several classic automobiles.
It reminds me of a well known MLM organization that claims to specialize in cleaning products. Everyone is so busy selling dealerships, they forget about the soap. With The Way, everyone is so busy selling 'the abundant life", no one seems to notice very few are living it.
So, to answer your question, It's possible to remain a casual attendee at a local level but, not condoned. to say the least.
Edited by waysidergrammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Brainstormer.........from what I've gathered from your posts, your child "Jessie" seems to be in a situation with nice, good-hearted leadership. This is very common and understandable. From my experience, one can easily remain in this euphoria situation for many years........disregarding questions, alarming red-flags, personal career choices, long-term goals, financial well-being, etc.
Back in 2007, I started this thread.......Transition and Transference
Those of us who got involved in twi back in the early to mid-70s......the classes, the fellowships, the programs, and the annual "rock of ages" were swarming with a tide of fun-loving, young people. And, no internet (to check twi). In my opinion, it was much easier and elusive to get caught up in the utopian climate. But now......40 years later, WHAT HAPPENED to all those people? Hopefully, at some point in the not-too-distant future Jessie will step back and consider your questions. Where are the hundreds of people who went out on the wow ambassador program? the corps program? Why have some 475 ordained clergy exited?
I believe that twi has a culture of "untoward secrecy".......as noted in my earlier post. In their classes, twi immediately constructs a barrier between one's friends, family (parents) and associations......while anchoring the "spiritual" bond with twi and its followers. The deeper one remains involved, twi endeavors to control one's behavior, thoughts, associations, information and emotions. Soon, Jessie will see that to remain in good standing with twi......he/she "should" faithfully give 15% of income for the rest of his/her life, and attend fellowships at least twice per week. Against better judgment or personal gain, following leadership guidance must always be considered first. Oftentimes, to cycle thru all this takes 6-12 years (or longer) depending on multi-varied factors, situations and local leadership.
I speak from personal experience. I was one of those twi-clergy that exited.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
this resonates with me big time!
and provides further details to my previous post - how someone like me who has no desire or qualifications to be a leader or have more responsibility / supervision / management over others -yet gets corralled into a leadership position...maybe some of you have experienced something similar - a leader blows smoke up your arse - to inflate your ego to the point you take more on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
It took me (in the 1970s and 1980s) 12 years to cycle through it. Btw, Skyrider, weren't there thousands of people who had gone out WoW?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.