In my humble opinion; never cut ties with your children. It is good to be able to have open conversation with your child and reassure them that they are loved. If you chastise this, it may drive them away from you. Which would be a mistake. With how things are evolving in The Way, I suspect that your child will leave on their own in less than 10 years. You can only whitewash over corrupt leadership for so long until everyone is left openly admitting that it is all corrupt. At that stage, the fact that they can freely return to your open arms, will be a huge relief.
I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.
I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.
But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.
If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com
I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.
I was involved with The Way for several years and I've been out for several years now. Looking back, I think that discussions regarding doctrinal differences between Way beliefs and mainstream beliefs did more to strengthen my resolve than dissuade me. But, everyone's experience is unique so there's no absolute method I know of.
I, too, was in a program that involved living with other Way people who had a similar level of commitment. Our main focus was to live a Way-prescribed lifestyle, recruit new members and support our efforts by working at secular jobs. In essence, it was what most people would call a commune. It was a religious commune,not the hippie, drug centered kind that's been portrayed by Hollywood movies and such.
One of the key methods that was used was isolation/insulation from outside influences, including family and non-Way friends. This was much easier to do back in the 1970's when I was involved. Other than time spent at our secular jobs, we had very limited contact with outside sources. We had no T.V.s, no phones, no newspapers. To be honest, there was not much free, personal time that could have been given to such things anyway. (Our sleep allowances were limited to about 5 hours a night.) The world has changed dramatically since then. People on the other side of the globe know instantly when you put mustard on your hot dog instead of ketchup. Well, maybe not that extreme but, the internet has certainly made it much, much harder to keep followers in darkness.
As others have said, keep the lines of communication open, let them know you care, and be patient. Everyone leaves when they're ready to leave, sometimes even sooner if they toss you out on your ear in the middle of the night. I hope we can answer any questions you may have. We will certainly try.
s others have already said, I, too, have been intensely involved for many years. I don't think there was much that someone could have said that would have made me leave. If you try to argue or discuss doctrinal matters, it's not likely you'll win. After all, various denominations also have different viewpoints. Also, Way believers are carefully schooled on them so they may have firmer beliefs than you do (not to insult, but to explain the level of indoctrination). I think you may have better luck appealing to her own intellect and thought processes.
If you can get her to see how special she is to God in her own right as she is with her education and in her job, for example, it may be possible to get her to stop thinking about quitting her job now. The Way tries to get its followers to follow blindly; at least they did when I was involved. Try to get her to think for herself. Try to point out the negative difficulties they've had. That should be easy now that we have the internet. Google around yourself and look around some more on this web site to find some really pertinent examples of that. If she wants to "give the glory to God", she would do better to stay away from that organization. Suggest that she not take your word for it, but check it out herself. If she gets some understanding herself, that's much better than being told what to do by your parents.
Being separated by distance is never easy. As much as possible try not to harp on this. Of course you need to discuss it; but harping on it is another thing.
(SNIP)...We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?
Thank You!
Hi Brainstormer and welcome to Grease Spot!
I agree with the others that keeping the communication lines open is so important ....and loving them ......and never turning your back on them.
parenting is such a challenging and often thankless job - and i think it's not until kids get to be mature adults that it begins to dawn on them how wise mom & dad really are.
as for answering your primary question ( Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?) - - with me it was finding out what a fraud the founding president was (Victor Paul Wierwille) - this i found out on my own....long story short: i was in the ministry for 12 years and going thru their leadership training program at the time (the way corps) when VPW passed away - after which some at the top began vying for power - that made me question a lot of things; but not questioning any of their doctrines so much as i started having doubts about VPW's qualifications; which led me to look into some of the claims he made - i even called the registrar's office of the Moody Bible Institute Correspondence Courses and discovered they have no record of him completing a single course - contrary to his claim that he took all they could offer on Greek or whatever....that in turn spurred me on to look into assorted systematic theologies by reputable scholars and only after that did i get into analyzing the way's doctrine and practices with at least a working knowledge of basic Christian theology.
my pet theory on how people get into or get out of questionable organizations boils down to the things in one's own head that can trigger a change of mind. Howard Gardner wrote an interesting book Changing Minds - after reading it i sort of adopted the philosophy of the SNL character Stewart Smalley mocking those self help gurus "only you can help you." i think there is some truth in that.
if i would offer any advice: don't get so hung up on doctrinal debates - instead maybe try to get the person to question or doubt what makes the teacher of those doctrines qualified to say such things....if you can get someone's critical thinking activated - - they just might see thru some of the BS themselves.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. The good news is that our lines of communications are open. And I believe we have shown our love and support and will continue to do so. I will look into the books also. And I've been reading as much as possible to be better informed. We will stop talking about doctrinal differences. Interestingly, my husband did bring up the credentials of Dr. Wierville. Jessie was a bit taken aback by that I believe. And we mentioned the issues of leaving a good job. So I guess we may have had some of the same ideas as all of you.
Great insights shared by others already. I'll echo and emphasize a point made by Waysider. Challenging doctrinal issues is almost certain to be counterproductive.
The Way built it's cult(ure) on classes intended to emotionally establish in the student's mind that all of Christianity was wrong except for how Wierwille and those who came subsequently presented it.
Keeping your relationship open with your child is crucial. Let him (or her) know you trust and believe in her (or him).
Ask your child questions that enables the person to come to the correct answer and think he/she came up with it on their own.
This is often how people who write letters to editors of newspapers succeed in getting readers to look at issues differently than they did originally.
I was involved with The Way for 12 years as a young adult. When your child is ready, one key will be having a good social support system available so it won't feel like walking away from Jessie's own entire network of friends.
I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.
I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.
But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.
If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com
I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.
1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists, Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't empathize with us much. I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.
2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what. Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.
3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.) When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit. A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored. So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)
4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:
I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources. I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.
Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads. "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline. vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi. He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else. After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said. "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book. I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline." I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :) Ok, links to the other threads.
Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi.
1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists, Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't [might not] empathize with us much. I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.
2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what. Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.
3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.) When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit. A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored. So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)
4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:
I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources. I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.
Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads. "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline. vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi. He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else. After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said. "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book. I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline." I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :) Ok, links to the other threads.
Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi.
My apologies WordWolf, for the edit I made to one brief section of your comment above.
Hi Brainstormer, and welcome to the Cafe. Plenty of people here with very diverse views. All linked by the one connection: TWI.
It would be fair to say that most, if not all, of us got involved by hearing Bible teaching of an apparent standard that we hadn't heard before. And in its initial levels, the Bible taught is quite good. That's because it was pinched from quite a number of people who had studied it, and were able to teach it. The plagiarized version presented to TWI beginners was never and still is not as good. But it may depend, from your child's point of view, on how well taught she was by other churches. Also, at initial levels, there is a great feeling of cameraderie and fellowship with other believers. Who, mostly, are pretty great people.
The problem arises as one gets sucked deeper and deeper in. Way-based activities tend to displace time for non-Way related activities and spending time with friends and family. It's slow, and subtle, and deadly. Gentle nudges in a direction different from where she might otherwise have been going. It's likely that Jessie will be being taught overtly or by example, that family and old friends are dangerous to her walk with God: that they will either pleasure her or pressure her from "the truth;" therefore, the more you challenge her beliefs, the more it will be seen that you are working to distract her in her walk with God, and you may even be working against God.
11 hours ago, Brainstormer said:
Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult. Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God"
I am sorry to say that that is what many of us wanted too. The desire to know God and give glory to him is in fact the vulnerability!
Some of us had previous good jobs and high-level professional qualifications.
I would suggest that you don't challenge doctrinal issues (which you will also find between most denominations) but the outcome of those issues and the practicalities of Way life. Like: cutting oneself off from friends and family; not being around for family events; dropping her Christian friends (of course, they may drop her!); and, of course, not fulfilling her God-given skills and abilities by pursuing her career ambitions.
Remind her (very gently) that Jesus hung around with all sort of disreputable people (the religious high-ups of the day condemned him for hanging out with thieves and prostitutes) - Jesus clearly "mucked in" with them - wasn't preachy and strident but drew people to him by his genuine kindness and compassion. Jesus was only strident with hypocrites of the religious classes - not with ordinary people or his own followers. How does Way leadership treat her? Treat other people? How are people who don't spend a lot of time with the group treated? Or are they shunned?
The comments from people here are from a long period of time, decades; they are from people who may never have met each other to "compare notes" but who have the same sort of stories to tell; some of us were "in" for a long period.
As others have said - be kind to her, keep the door open.
You might want to show some interest in what she is being taught, so that you can either point out that that is what she has already learned (from the local community of Christians), or how it differs from what is taught elsewhere in the Bible. She will probably be very hot on what it says in the epistles and maybe Acts; not so hot on and dismissive of the gospel and OT, so gently draw any points of difference from the epistles, if you can.
Just to clarify a few things. I only mentioned that we (Jessie's parents) are Christians for context - so you'd know where we're coming from. I realize the folks here are of different faiths or no faith and we respect all of you (and value your opinion). We have friends that do not follow any religion as well as friends from about every mainstream religious group out there (and some not too mainstream). I would never judge any of them or any of you. But I think we all agree that The Way is a destructive group even though it may be filled with a lot of good people. And maybe these posts can help others as well as our family.
I recently found this site and I am hoping that there are some people who can help me. I will attempt to keep this as anonymous as possible by saying that I have a young adult child (who I will refer to as Jessie) who is involved in The Way. Jessie met a friend whose parents are somewhere in the leadership and that's how it started. Jessie really liked learning more about the bible and took some classes. My husband and I are Christians and we thought that Jessie was attending a bible study group. Not until we did more research did we realize that the Way is a cult. Jessie has never been in trouble. Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult. Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God" and does not realize that this group is destructive and incorrect about important theology. Jessie has not shut us out; we have a very close family relationship. But we are concerned about Jessie getting more entrenched. Jessie wants to go on an outreach program (forgive me that I don't know all the appropriate terminology) where you live in a group somewhere and work a part time job and then do Way things the remaining time. Jessie has a college degree and a good job that Jessie would be leaving. Not a good move from our vantage point.
We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?
Thank You!
Gents
I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.
See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe
Welcome, Bapsy. Glad you got out. It's good to give; but tithing is one of many things TWI got wrong. 2002 - you have "stickability" if you've been with them since then. And you have common sense, to have escaped now and be thinking things through for yourself. Well done. Be cautious, though, in utilising ex-Way splinter group resources; acknowledge their provenance. Some are more worthy than others; some are just a re-hash of old material.
Let's hope Jessie makes it through too - but in less time.
Edited by Twinky Ref to suggested OP's website link
To me many of the vulnerabilities that a cult exploits is just youth. A young mind is maturing at least until age 25. Humans in their 20's also are known to be very ideal based, hopeful, looking forward to their life and changing the world, looking for a cause, looking for a circle of reliable friends, looking for support systems, looking for a deeper meaning to life.
There wasn't a whole lot that would have talked me out of a decision like the one Jessie made when I was young like that. And you have local leaders love-bombing them and challenging logic saying "just go see for yourself and prove God in your life".
I'm so thankful my parents stayed in contact and remained as loving as they did throughout the many years filled with moving around the country, prioritizing everything else in life over them due to my 'spirituality', throwing away opportunity after opportunity, and being very hypocritical and unloving to them. Since I've left TWI we have a much better relationship, probably mostly due to me apologizing for being an @$$.
If Jessie would do some research on this site, after time she would probably come to a different conclusion than the one she holds to now. However, realistically she probably won't. The leaders will tell her we are all possessed and disgruntled, and you don't need that negativity in your life, any lie to keep people from being freed from their grasp. TWI is so desperate for people right now that Jessie is being used by local leadership to prove to their overseers Christian growth in their area. They have this vision and direction quota system and all.
Unfortunately, speaking from experience, the young adult mind has a real hard time believing sincere people will lie to them and use them. And some of these leaders are so deluded that they just push all the cult evidence to the side even though they know it and they make up more lies, like "the ministry used to be like that, but it's kinder and gentler now". Jesus said you can't put old wine into new wineskins. You can't force a ministry based on practices of adultery and plagiarism into morality by whitewashing the outside and "Pollyanna" ing it.
the woman in charge of TWI - rfr - is someone who was a schoolteacher, divorced, has abandoned/ turned over her own children to Satan with no further communication with them, was known to participate in the adultery and free sex behavior in training, has hidden a same-sex adulterous relationship with the 2nd president's wife with which she ascended the presidency by including disposing of the former president, and is known to be an absolute OCD control freak.
Whatever someone's beliefs in the Bible are and/or need for a church family are, associating with this woman in any way shape or form is probably not a good idea.
I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.
See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe
welcome to Grease Spot, Bapsy! and thanks for the links.
speaking of the tithe - i read an interesting book Decision Making and the Will of God a few years ago and it has a chapter devoted to that....it also has several other chapters that might be interesting to ex-way folks (on guidance, choosing a job, choosing a mate, etc.)
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.
I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.
I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.
Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?
I grew up in TWI. I was argued with for and agaisnt TWI since I learned to talk. Doctrinal discussions and attacking leadership is a waste of time. Usually the people a person is connected with keep them involved. Unless someone is a nut job, which TWI has a lot of.
Chances are someone young and with a degree will leave within a handful of years. Twi has no depth and most folks involved are not that interesting. I find it hard to believe anyone is involved to "learn the bible".
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.
I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.
I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.
Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?
Bapsy, I too was raised in the Roman Catholic Church – and education-wise went to Catholic grammar school, high school, and university; however, in all that I had very little education on the Bible….I read a quote in one of those books on cults – that stated cults are the unpaid bills of the church – from my personal experience before TWI - I would agree with that statement....I definitely was on a spiritual quest about the time someone with the way witnessed to me and without any basic knowledge of the Bible i was easily impressed with their rhetoric....one thing i did get out of the PFAL class was a love for reading the Bible...i'm sorry to report that within my first year of taking PFAL my twig leader was so annoyed with me asking questions about things in the old and new testament that he would "encourage" me to just review the PFAL material.....boring
Concerning the Trinity vs Jesus Christ is not God – and your question Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?– in my humble opinion, I would say no for a number of reasons – most notably being that of all the biblical topics there is nothing more complex, deep, and perhaps unfathomable than the nature of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You might want to check out the doctrinal forum – there have been numerous discussions on this – and I’m sure you’ll glean some interesting ideas from both sides about the issues.
That being said – I would also like to add a couple of things: since I left TWI I’ve resumed my belief in the Trinity – especially after devoting a lot of study and meditation to the gospel of John especially chapter 1 as you noted….also in considering the validity of any doctrine I like to look at the practical consequences of the doctrine (or the real life impact of following that doctrine). In that regard I’m not sure of the practical consequences of believing in the Trinity versus believing Jesus Christ is not God – other than it seems to me it sometimes can result in one side damning the other side to hell….But I could be wrong on that….in that case I’m going to hell in an Easter Basket.
...also wanted to add - it's no big deal to me if folks are Trinitarian or not - as far as Christianity goes if they serve the Lord Jesus Christ they're ok in my book.
Edited by T-Bone wanted to add my wishy washy statement at the end
Bapsy you can Google Biblical Unitarian and find some info regarding The Trinity. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it's a non-redemptive, non-salvific subject.
T-Bone - thanks for your comments and sharing your point of view regarding the subject and of course i found that helpful.
JayDee - I will definitely google Biblical Unitarian and learn more about trinity, thanks for sharing.
Twinky- Of course i will not be the only to benefit from my question or doubt regarding the TWI teachings and doctrine, Brainstormer as well, because she will know for fact what kind of teaching and doctrine her daughter is learning. We can't tell her to force Jessie to leave TWI, but with time she will understand what we experienced in there and why we left.
Talking about leaving, just 2 hrs ago, I met with two members of the TWI and they are leaving the as well because of leadership behavior is not blessing them anymore
Well I hope Jessie to find her way out before is too late.
Just a casual reminder that checking the "Biblical Unitarian" site is not exactly checking a non-twi source. That site's run by an ex-twi splinter group. So, don't be surprised if it doesn't feel the same-complete with the casual arrogance that only THEY have The Truth. There's been some criticisms of some of their errors here, including that Momentus debacle they've nether acknowledged, repented from, nor stopped recruiting for under-the-table. That's no guarantee anything there will automatically be error, but I recommend approaching with caution because some of their stuff IS error.
BTW, I agree that the Trinity is a non-critical subject, in that I've seen excellent and horrible examples of Christians of either side of that dividing line.
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Galen
Welcome
In my humble opinion; never cut ties with your children. It is good to be able to have open conversation with your child and reassure them that they are loved. If you chastise this, it may drive them away from you. Which would be a mistake. With how things are evolving in The Way, I suspect that your child will leave on their own in less than 10 years. You can only whitewash over corrupt leadership for so long until everyone is left openly admitting that it is all corrupt. At that stage, the fact that they can freely return to your open arms, will be a huge relief.
Galen
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penworks
Hi,
I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.
I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.
But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.
If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com
I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.
Cheers,
Charlene Edge
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waysider
I was involved with The Way for several years and I've been out for several years now. Looking back, I think that discussions regarding doctrinal differences between Way beliefs and mainstream beliefs did more to strengthen my resolve than dissuade me. But, everyone's experience is unique so there's no absolute method I know of.
I, too, was in a program that involved living with other Way people who had a similar level of commitment. Our main focus was to live a Way-prescribed lifestyle, recruit new members and support our efforts by working at secular jobs. In essence, it was what most people would call a commune. It was a religious commune,not the hippie, drug centered kind that's been portrayed by Hollywood movies and such.
One of the key methods that was used was isolation/insulation from outside influences, including family and non-Way friends. This was much easier to do back in the 1970's when I was involved. Other than time spent at our secular jobs, we had very limited contact with outside sources. We had no T.V.s, no phones, no newspapers. To be honest, there was not much free, personal time that could have been given to such things anyway. (Our sleep allowances were limited to about 5 hours a night.) The world has changed dramatically since then. People on the other side of the globe know instantly when you put mustard on your hot dog instead of ketchup. Well, maybe not that extreme but, the internet has certainly made it much, much harder to keep followers in darkness.
As others have said, keep the lines of communication open, let them know you care, and be patient. Everyone leaves when they're ready to leave, sometimes even sooner if they toss you out on your ear in the middle of the night. I hope we can answer any questions you may have. We will certainly try.
edit: spelling
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krys
s others have already said, I, too, have been intensely involved for many years. I don't think there was much that someone could have said that would have made me leave. If you try to argue or discuss doctrinal matters, it's not likely you'll win. After all, various denominations also have different viewpoints. Also, Way believers are carefully schooled on them so they may have firmer beliefs than you do (not to insult, but to explain the level of indoctrination). I think you may have better luck appealing to her own intellect and thought processes.
If you can get her to see how special she is to God in her own right as she is with her education and in her job, for example, it may be possible to get her to stop thinking about quitting her job now. The Way tries to get its followers to follow blindly; at least they did when I was involved. Try to get her to think for herself. Try to point out the negative difficulties they've had. That should be easy now that we have the internet. Google around yourself and look around some more on this web site to find some really pertinent examples of that. If she wants to "give the glory to God", she would do better to stay away from that organization. Suggest that she not take your word for it, but check it out herself. If she gets some understanding herself, that's much better than being told what to do by your parents.
Being separated by distance is never easy. As much as possible try not to harp on this. Of course you need to discuss it; but harping on it is another thing.
Edited by kryscorrect spelling
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T-Bone
Hi Brainstormer and welcome to Grease Spot!
I agree with the others that keeping the communication lines open is so important ....and loving them ......and never turning your back on them.
parenting is such a challenging and often thankless job - and i think it's not until kids get to be mature adults that it begins to dawn on them how wise mom & dad really are.
as for answering your primary question ( Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?) - - with me it was finding out what a fraud the founding president was (Victor Paul Wierwille) - this i found out on my own....long story short: i was in the ministry for 12 years and going thru their leadership training program at the time (the way corps) when VPW passed away - after which some at the top began vying for power - that made me question a lot of things; but not questioning any of their doctrines so much as i started having doubts about VPW's qualifications; which led me to look into some of the claims he made - i even called the registrar's office of the Moody Bible Institute Correspondence Courses and discovered they have no record of him completing a single course - contrary to his claim that he took all they could offer on Greek or whatever....that in turn spurred me on to look into assorted systematic theologies by reputable scholars and only after that did i get into analyzing the way's doctrine and practices with at least a working knowledge of basic Christian theology.
my pet theory on how people get into or get out of questionable organizations boils down to the things in one's own head that can trigger a change of mind. Howard Gardner wrote an interesting book Changing Minds - after reading it i sort of adopted the philosophy of the SNL character Stewart Smalley mocking those self help gurus "only you can help you." i think there is some truth in that.
Changing Minds by Gardner
if i would offer any advice: don't get so hung up on doctrinal debates - instead maybe try to get the person to question or doubt what makes the teacher of those doctrines qualified to say such things....if you can get someone's critical thinking activated - - they just might see thru some of the BS themselves.
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Brainstormer
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. The good news is that our lines of communications are open. And I believe we have shown our love and support and will continue to do so. I will look into the books also. And I've been reading as much as possible to be better informed. We will stop talking about doctrinal differences. Interestingly, my husband did bring up the credentials of Dr. Wierville. Jessie was a bit taken aback by that I believe. And we mentioned the issues of leaving a good job. So I guess we may have had some of the same ideas as all of you.
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Rocky
Hi Brainstormer,
Great insights shared by others already. I'll echo and emphasize a point made by Waysider. Challenging doctrinal issues is almost certain to be counterproductive.
The Way built it's cult(ure) on classes intended to emotionally establish in the student's mind that all of Christianity was wrong except for how Wierwille and those who came subsequently presented it.
Keeping your relationship open with your child is crucial. Let him (or her) know you trust and believe in her (or him).
Ask your child questions that enables the person to come to the correct answer and think he/she came up with it on their own.
This is often how people who write letters to editors of newspapers succeed in getting readers to look at issues differently than they did originally.
If you can provide information from neutral sources that shows how to recognize spiritual abuse, that can be helpful. More on spiritual abuse and leaving a bad church.
I was involved with The Way for 12 years as a young adult. When your child is ready, one key will be having a good social support system available so it won't feel like walking away from Jessie's own entire network of friends.
I wish you and Jessie the best. <3
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Rocky
Inserted links for Karl and Kristen.
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WordWolf
God bless you.
Here's some things you may want to know.
1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists, Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't empathize with us much. I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.
2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what. Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.
3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.) When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit. A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored. So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)
4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:
I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources. I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.
Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads. "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline. vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi. He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else. After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said. "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book. I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline." I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :) Ok, links to the other threads.
Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi.
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Rocky
My apologies WordWolf, for the edit I made to one brief section of your comment above.
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Twinky
Hi Brainstormer, and welcome to the Cafe. Plenty of people here with very diverse views. All linked by the one connection: TWI.
It would be fair to say that most, if not all, of us got involved by hearing Bible teaching of an apparent standard that we hadn't heard before. And in its initial levels, the Bible taught is quite good. That's because it was pinched from quite a number of people who had studied it, and were able to teach it. The plagiarized version presented to TWI beginners was never and still is not as good. But it may depend, from your child's point of view, on how well taught she was by other churches. Also, at initial levels, there is a great feeling of cameraderie and fellowship with other believers. Who, mostly, are pretty great people.
The problem arises as one gets sucked deeper and deeper in. Way-based activities tend to displace time for non-Way related activities and spending time with friends and family. It's slow, and subtle, and deadly. Gentle nudges in a direction different from where she might otherwise have been going. It's likely that Jessie will be being taught overtly or by example, that family and old friends are dangerous to her walk with God: that they will either pleasure her or pressure her from "the truth;" therefore, the more you challenge her beliefs, the more it will be seen that you are working to distract her in her walk with God, and you may even be working against God.
I am sorry to say that that is what many of us wanted too. The desire to know God and give glory to him is in fact the vulnerability!
Some of us had previous good jobs and high-level professional qualifications.
I would suggest that you don't challenge doctrinal issues (which you will also find between most denominations) but the outcome of those issues and the practicalities of Way life. Like: cutting oneself off from friends and family; not being around for family events; dropping her Christian friends (of course, they may drop her!); and, of course, not fulfilling her God-given skills and abilities by pursuing her career ambitions.
Remind her (very gently) that Jesus hung around with all sort of disreputable people (the religious high-ups of the day condemned him for hanging out with thieves and prostitutes) - Jesus clearly "mucked in" with them - wasn't preachy and strident but drew people to him by his genuine kindness and compassion. Jesus was only strident with hypocrites of the religious classes - not with ordinary people or his own followers. How does Way leadership treat her? Treat other people? How are people who don't spend a lot of time with the group treated? Or are they shunned?
The comments from people here are from a long period of time, decades; they are from people who may never have met each other to "compare notes" but who have the same sort of stories to tell; some of us were "in" for a long period.
As others have said - be kind to her, keep the door open.
You might want to show some interest in what she is being taught, so that you can either point out that that is what she has already learned (from the local community of Christians), or how it differs from what is taught elsewhere in the Bible. She will probably be very hot on what it says in the epistles and maybe Acts; not so hot on and dismissive of the gospel and OT, so gently draw any points of difference from the epistles, if you can.
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Brainstormer
Just to clarify a few things. I only mentioned that we (Jessie's parents) are Christians for context - so you'd know where we're coming from. I realize the folks here are of different faiths or no faith and we respect all of you (and value your opinion). We have friends that do not follow any religion as well as friends from about every mainstream religious group out there (and some not too mainstream). I would never judge any of them or any of you. But I think we all agree that The Way is a destructive group even though it may be filled with a lot of good people. And maybe these posts can help others as well as our family.
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Bapsy
Gents
I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.
See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe
http://www.freechristianministry.com/tithe.html
Below the webpage regarding
Ex- The Way International
http://www.freechristianministry.com/TheWay.html
I still have others resources.
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Twinky
Welcome, Bapsy. Glad you got out. It's good to give; but tithing is one of many things TWI got wrong. 2002 - you have "stickability" if you've been with them since then. And you have common sense, to have escaped now and be thinking things through for yourself. Well done. Be cautious, though, in utilising ex-Way splinter group resources; acknowledge their provenance. Some are more worthy than others; some are just a re-hash of old material.
Let's hope Jessie makes it through too - but in less time.
Edited by TwinkyRef to suggested OP's website link
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chockfull
To me many of the vulnerabilities that a cult exploits is just youth. A young mind is maturing at least until age 25. Humans in their 20's also are known to be very ideal based, hopeful, looking forward to their life and changing the world, looking for a cause, looking for a circle of reliable friends, looking for support systems, looking for a deeper meaning to life.
There wasn't a whole lot that would have talked me out of a decision like the one Jessie made when I was young like that. And you have local leaders love-bombing them and challenging logic saying "just go see for yourself and prove God in your life".
I'm so thankful my parents stayed in contact and remained as loving as they did throughout the many years filled with moving around the country, prioritizing everything else in life over them due to my 'spirituality', throwing away opportunity after opportunity, and being very hypocritical and unloving to them. Since I've left TWI we have a much better relationship, probably mostly due to me apologizing for being an @$$.
If Jessie would do some research on this site, after time she would probably come to a different conclusion than the one she holds to now. However, realistically she probably won't. The leaders will tell her we are all possessed and disgruntled, and you don't need that negativity in your life, any lie to keep people from being freed from their grasp. TWI is so desperate for people right now that Jessie is being used by local leadership to prove to their overseers Christian growth in their area. They have this vision and direction quota system and all.
Unfortunately, speaking from experience, the young adult mind has a real hard time believing sincere people will lie to them and use them. And some of these leaders are so deluded that they just push all the cult evidence to the side even though they know it and they make up more lies, like "the ministry used to be like that, but it's kinder and gentler now". Jesus said you can't put old wine into new wineskins. You can't force a ministry based on practices of adultery and plagiarism into morality by whitewashing the outside and "Pollyanna" ing it.
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chockfull
the woman in charge of TWI - rfr - is someone who was a schoolteacher, divorced, has abandoned/ turned over her own children to Satan with no further communication with them, was known to participate in the adultery and free sex behavior in training, has hidden a same-sex adulterous relationship with the 2nd president's wife with which she ascended the presidency by including disposing of the former president, and is known to be an absolute OCD control freak.
Whatever someone's beliefs in the Bible are and/or need for a church family are, associating with this woman in any way shape or form is probably not a good idea.
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T-Bone
welcome to Grease Spot, Bapsy! and thanks for the links.
speaking of the tithe - i read an interesting book Decision Making and the Will of God a few years ago and it has a chapter devoted to that....it also has several other chapters that might be interesting to ex-way folks (on guidance, choosing a job, choosing a mate, etc.)
Decision Making and the Will of God on Amazon
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Bapsy
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.
I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.
I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.
Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?
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Bolshevik
I grew up in TWI. I was argued with for and agaisnt TWI since I learned to talk. Doctrinal discussions and attacking leadership is a waste of time. Usually the people a person is connected with keep them involved. Unless someone is a nut job, which TWI has a lot of.
Chances are someone young and with a degree will leave within a handful of years. Twi has no depth and most folks involved are not that interesting. I find it hard to believe anyone is involved to "learn the bible".
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T-Bone
Bapsy, I too was raised in the Roman Catholic Church – and education-wise went to Catholic grammar school, high school, and university; however, in all that I had very little education on the Bible….I read a quote in one of those books on cults – that stated cults are the unpaid bills of the church – from my personal experience before TWI - I would agree with that statement....I definitely was on a spiritual quest about the time someone with the way witnessed to me and without any basic knowledge of the Bible i was easily impressed with their rhetoric....one thing i did get out of the PFAL class was a love for reading the Bible...i'm sorry to report that within my first year of taking PFAL my twig leader was so annoyed with me asking questions about things in the old and new testament that he would "encourage" me to just review the PFAL material.....boring
Concerning the Trinity vs Jesus Christ is not God – and your question Is there any clear resource regarding the subject? – in my humble opinion, I would say no for a number of reasons – most notably being that of all the biblical topics there is nothing more complex, deep, and perhaps unfathomable than the nature of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You might want to check out the doctrinal forum – there have been numerous discussions on this – and I’m sure you’ll glean some interesting ideas from both sides about the issues.
That being said – I would also like to add a couple of things: since I left TWI I’ve resumed my belief in the Trinity – especially after devoting a lot of study and meditation to the gospel of John especially chapter 1 as you noted….also in considering the validity of any doctrine I like to look at the practical consequences of the doctrine (or the real life impact of following that doctrine). In that regard I’m not sure of the practical consequences of believing in the Trinity versus believing Jesus Christ is not God – other than it seems to me it sometimes can result in one side damning the other side to hell….But I could be wrong on that….in that case I’m going to hell in an Easter Basket.
...also wanted to add - it's no big deal to me if folks are Trinitarian or not - as far as Christianity goes if they serve the Lord Jesus Christ they're ok in my book.
Edited by T-Bonewanted to add my wishy washy statement at the end
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JayDee
Bapsy you can Google Biblical Unitarian and find some info regarding The Trinity. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it's a non-redemptive, non-salvific subject.
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Twinky
Perhaps it would be time to split off the last dozen or so posts they really don't seem relevant to the question that Brainstormer posed.
And Bapsy might benefit from his/her own questions being answered on a separate thread.
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Bapsy
T-Bone - thanks for your comments and sharing your point of view regarding the subject and of course i found that helpful.
JayDee - I will definitely google Biblical Unitarian and learn more about trinity, thanks for sharing.
Twinky- Of course i will not be the only to benefit from my question or doubt regarding the TWI teachings and doctrine, Brainstormer as well, because she will know for fact what kind of teaching and doctrine her daughter is learning. We can't tell her to force Jessie to leave TWI, but with time she will understand what we experienced in there and why we left.
Talking about leaving, just 2 hrs ago, I met with two members of the TWI and they are leaving the as well because of leadership behavior is not blessing them anymore
Well I hope Jessie to find her way out before is too late.
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WordWolf
Just a casual reminder that checking the "Biblical Unitarian" site is not exactly checking a non-twi source. That site's run by an ex-twi splinter group. So, don't be surprised if it doesn't feel the same-complete with the casual arrogance that only THEY have The Truth. There's been some criticisms of some of their errors here, including that Momentus debacle they've nether acknowledged, repented from, nor stopped recruiting for under-the-table. That's no guarantee anything there will automatically be error, but I recommend approaching with caution because some of their stuff IS error.
BTW, I agree that the Trinity is a non-critical subject, in that I've seen excellent and horrible examples of Christians of either side of that dividing line.
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