Honest question, and I don't mean to be all "questioning faith atheist" about this one: Where is the first indication in the Bible of anything that can unequivocally be referred to as an "afterlife," a life subsequent to someone's death?
Let me know if you think my question is off topic, and I'll move it. But I do think it relates directly to the issue of "salvation," seeing as salvation would be, by definition, the promise of a favorable afterlife.
God is able to save to the uttermost all them which call upon His name. No specifics re:Buddha, Brahma, Vishnu, Muhammad, Confucius, The Great Spirit of the Indigenous Americans, Sikhism, Christianity, Shintoism, Gnosticism, and so forth. By their fruit shall ye know them. The One True God is not and never has been a "one-trick-pony". He's never been fitted into any man made theological boxes or "definitions". She is GOD period, and can do whatever the heck She wants to do, anywhere, at any time, in any manner She sees fit. All the rest is man made. Dem's da facts jack!......imo.
Honest question, and I don't mean to be all "questioning faith atheist" about this one: Where is the first indication in the Bible of anything that can unequivocally be referred to as an "afterlife," a life subsequent to someone's death?
Let me know if you think my question is off topic, and I'll move it. But I do think it relates directly to the issue of "salvation," seeing as salvation would be, by definition, the promise of a favorable afterlife.
No, I actually don't see it as being off topic (...and even if I thought it were, given it was the first response in days to the topic, I'd have no issue with discussing it.)
It's certainly not parked in the "unequivocally" camp, but if we were talking "indications" only, I suppose a case could be made for the mentioning of seed in Genesis 1:12. (Seed representing a certain patterning in the natural world of there being "life after death.") However, if we want to jump straight to the unequivocal part, it would probably be Job 14:14.
God is able to save to the uttermost all them which call upon His name. No specifics re:Buddha, Brahma, Vishnu, Muhammad, Confucius, The Great Spirit of the Indigenous Americans, Sikhism, Christianity, Shintoism, Gnosticism, and so forth. By their fruit shall ye know them. The One True God is not and never has been a "one-trick-pony". He's never been fitted into any man made theological boxes or "definitions". She is GOD period, and can do whatever the heck She wants to do, anywhere, at any time, in any manner She sees fit. All the rest is man made. Dem's da facts jack!......imo.
If this were an any day, everyday, discussion, I'd be inclined to simply let the "call upon His name" being spoken of in reference to God slide by. However, considering the doctrinal format of the discussion, I'm compelled to point out that the scriptural basis for your statement clearly refers to the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord who is called upon (and not God.)
So, regardless of whether it's Budda or Muhammad or Confucius in persona, salvation still centers upon the one (and only one) whom God has set as the propitiation for sin, the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence, think or say whatever you want, Wilbur... no man (that means, no exceptions) cometh unto the Father, but by the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no alternate way, path or belief system that finds a way around or gets you there.
I think, in context, Job 14:14 comes off more as "wishful thinking" than a promise that this is going to happen.
It really seems there like Job is lamenting that an afterlife is not the case.
But I could easily be wrong.
If one were convinced that the heavens that be would remain and be "forever and ever," I suppose they might think Job thought likewise. But that's not what I see as Job's perspective on the matter. Hence, in the preceding verse 12, it seems to say that after a certain (undefined) length of time, the heavens would be no more, after which men shall awake (from death) and be raised out of their sleep. That the heavens will be no more at a certain point in time is attested to further in numerous other places throughout the scriptures.
As I read the whole chapter, verse 12 does not actually look like it's looking forward to a later promise. Rather, it looks very much like this awakening you mention will never take place at all.
Mind you, this is Job speaking in despair, so it's not quite doctrine.
I asked for an unequivocal reference to an afterlife. I humbly submit that Job 14 is equivocal at best, and at worst it reflects an active belief in no afterlife at all.
As I read the whole chapter, verse 12 does not actually look like it's looking forward to a later promise. Rather, it looks very much like this awakening you mention will never take place at all.
Mind you, this is Job speaking in despair, so it's not quite doctrine.
I asked for an unequivocal reference to an afterlife. I humbly submit that Job 14 is equivocal at best, and at worst it reflects an active belief in no afterlife at all.
Okay, if you want to pass on that, then pop on over to Dan.12:13. (Though, I suspect several probably reside in Psalms somewhere.)
There are, of course, other verses (such as Romans 6:9, 1Cor.15:22,53-54, or Philip.3:21) that unequivocally refer to an afterlife, or another (eternal) kind of life, but I presume you were asking for any that might be found in earlier writings. Interestingly enough, however, is the notion that not all life is (or needs to be) identical and/or exactly the same. But just how any (eternal) life might differ is neither clear nor certain. Jesus Christ said "In my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2), while Paul spoke of certain rewards that could be added (or not added) to the next life (1Cor.3:14-15.) If in this present world we see such vast variances of temporal life, should we think God is somehow restricted to less, or not capable of even more, for the eternal? So, while the essence of salvation might start with, be capsulized in, and simply summarized as "the attainment of eternal life," it doesn't seem to effectively grasp what may be the whole truth of it. In other words, I'm not particularly convinced or persuaded that "salvation" has the exact same meaning (or end result) for all mankind throughout the scriptures, which may also help explain (at least in part) why "the good news" of said salvation appears to have some differences when revealed to different people, at different times.
I'm not questioning whether the Bible speaks of an afterlife. It obviously does. I'm questioning WHEN that belief began to surface. I submit it was rather late in the theological development of the,Hebrew religion.
I could be wrong.
Does Moses make an unambiguous reference to an afterlife?
I do think there are earlier references to an afterlife, Raf, but as for any of them being deemed "unambiguous," well... that's another matter. No doubt the Sadducees were quite adept with the ambiguity angle, whenever or wherever the Pharisees pointed out a reference to a resurrection of any sort. But setting aside the "unambiguous" request (which I'm somewhat inclined to think unlikely to be found), it might be interesting to seek out the "least ambiguous" references. Given that criteria, I'd go right straight to Abraham, who I think may have been the first to believe in resurrection (or perhaps, the resurrection of the Messiah), and of life after death. It would probably take a little bit of scripture build up to paint a clear enough picture, but it seems there's just no other explanation that's as reasonable or sensible as to why he would so willingly sacrifice the life of his only son, Isaac.
And from that perspective, I'd have to strongly disagree that the belief in an afterlife only surfaced late in the theological development of the Hebrew religion, as it places it right smack dab at the start of it. As for Moses and anything that's written in the law, the sacrifices were a figure of that which was yet to come. I suppose that when two goats were chosen, and lots cast between them as to which would be sacrificed and which would later be loosed in the wilderness, the scapegoat (that carried away all the sins of the people) might be a certain foreshadowing of life after death.
As a caveat to this, I'm actually not persuaded that Adam didn't also know and believe in an afterlife, as I am of the opinion that it was part of God's original plan for man. What I'm not so sure about, however, is how much of that plan was (and wasn't) revealed to Adam.
For an "afterlife" reference in Genesis, you would satisfy my request for a reference in Moses, since he* wrote Genesis. I would be pleased to see such a reference, either explicit or by implication.
The interesting thing here is to avoid "backreading," (for lack of a better word). That is, we KNOW there are later references to an afterlife, so we are inclined to read them into earlier verses, even though the original writers or readers would not necessarily have done so. That's why I'm looking for something unambiguous. A reference can be implicit and unambiguous, of course.
And again, all this does relate to your original question in that the concept of "salvation" requires a promise of an afterlife. (Not that you suggested I was off topic, but you're not the only person reading this thread).
For an "afterlife" reference in Genesis, you would satisfy my request for a reference in Moses, since he* wrote Genesis. I would be pleased to see such a reference, either explicit or by implication.
The interesting thing here is to avoid "backreading," (for lack of a better word). That is, we KNOW there are later references to an afterlife, so we are inclined to read them into earlier verses, even though the original writers or readers would not necessarily have done so. That's why I'm looking for something unambiguous. A reference can be implicit and unambiguous, of course.
And again, all this does relate to your original question in that the concept of "salvation" requires a promise of an afterlife. (Not that you suggested I was off topic, but you're not the only person reading this thread).
Whether it was intentional or not, I find what you might refer to as being interesting to avoid makes this more difficult to respond to. Namely because of several things that seem (to me, at least) to be rather obvious:
Whatever God revealed to certain men (be it Adam, Enoch, Abraham, etc.), we have no record of any of it being recorded until Moses, hundreds of years later.
Not everything that God might have done or made to known any of these men before Moses, is recorded by Moses.
Certain details that would undoubtedly remove ambiguity and provide additional clarity occasionally appear to be intentionally omitted from what is written in scripture (e.g., Dan.12:9.)
If God was capable of revealing (and did reveal) to Moses what and/or why these earlier men did what they did, then He is likewise capable of revealing it in either the same or greater detail to the writers of scripture long after Moses.
Therefore, if the primary objective is to identify when the belief in an afterlife began to surface (as it appears to be, given your earlier post), I don't see the point of requiring it to be specifically identified and spelled out as such in something that Moses wrote. Moses reveals the story of Abraham, and the incident of his offering his son Isaac as a sacrifice (as was requested by God.) But certain details are missing. However, the writer of Hebrews (which I believe is Paul) later reveals some of these missing details, which helps explain the incident further, and why Abraham so willingly acted as he did. (see Hebrews 11:17-19, which seems to rather plainly reveal that Abraham, having received a vision or revelation of some sort, believed that after Isaac was killed, God would raise him from the dead.) If by chance Abraham is actually the first to be fully persuaded of this, perhaps it is the reason why he is referred to as the father of all who subsequently would likewise believe.
How would Job have considered himself worthy of the promise of an afterlife?
I don't see that he did, or why he would. But, likewise with Abraham. And neither do I consider or think of myself as worthy of said promise. In short, I don't believe personal worthiness is the right criteria for anyone for the attainment of said promise (not even the LJC.)
Agreed, there is indeed the indication of a confidence, or an expectation, or an assurance. I suppose then your question might not have meant to be so much what (or how) it is, but why it is. Would you care to clarify?
Given that I think his basis for salvation isn't that same as it is for anyone living today, that perspective doesn't make it so easy to answer. Quite frankly, I haven't given this that much thought before. (And even if I had, I honestly don't know how sure I'd be in whatever could be said about it.) If Job lived in a day and time before Abraham, as seems likely, there's a whole bunch of stuff that we don't know, including just how God might have operated or worked with man in that day and time. Perhaps there's some things (like "without faith it is impossible to please him") that would also be relevant to Job, but I suspect it was a far simpler time and such a list is going to be very short
Although it appears to be rather plainly written that there was a promise of eternal life even before this world (or age) began (Titus 1:2), the extent to which it might have been known and/or was and wasn't revealed to various men throughout the annals of history (not to mention how much of that anyone did or didn't believe) isn't as obvious.
So answering the question asked is, in a certain sense, complicated by a lack of not knowing what all Job did or didn't know about God's promise of eternal life. (And he evidently knew something of it.) However, in another sense, it is made simple by understanding that whatever he did have and know about it, he believed. In other words, he trusted God, and took him at his word. And that, to the best of my understanding, was the basis for his salvation.
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DontWorryBeHappy
God is able to save to the uttermost all them which call upon His name. No specifics re:Buddha, Brahma, Vishnu, Muhammad, Confucius, The Great Spirit of the Indigenous Americans, Sikhism, Christianity
Raf
Honest question, and I don't mean to be all "questioning faith atheist" about this one: Where is the first indication in the Bible of anything that can unequivocally be referred to as an "afterlife,"
TLC
No, I actually don't see it as being off topic (...and even if I thought it were, given it was the first response in days to the topic, I'd have no issue with discussing it.) It's certainly not p
Raf
Honest question, and I don't mean to be all "questioning faith atheist" about this one: Where is the first indication in the Bible of anything that can unequivocally be referred to as an "afterlife," a life subsequent to someone's death?
Let me know if you think my question is off topic, and I'll move it. But I do think it relates directly to the issue of "salvation," seeing as salvation would be, by definition, the promise of a favorable afterlife.
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DontWorryBeHappy
God is able to save to the uttermost all them which call upon His name. No specifics re:Buddha, Brahma, Vishnu, Muhammad, Confucius, The Great Spirit of the Indigenous Americans, Sikhism, Christianity, Shintoism, Gnosticism, and so forth. By their fruit shall ye know them. The One True God is not and never has been a "one-trick-pony". He's never been fitted into any man made theological boxes or "definitions". She is GOD period, and can do whatever the heck She wants to do, anywhere, at any time, in any manner She sees fit. All the rest is man made. Dem's da facts jack!......imo.
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TLC
No, I actually don't see it as being off topic (...and even if I thought it were, given it was the first response in days to the topic, I'd have no issue with discussing it.)
It's certainly not parked in the "unequivocally" camp, but if we were talking "indications" only, I suppose a case could be made for the mentioning of seed in Genesis 1:12. (Seed representing a certain patterning in the natural world of there being "life after death.") However, if we want to jump straight to the unequivocal part, it would probably be Job 14:14.
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Raf
I think, in context, Job 14:14 comes off more as "wishful thinking" than a promise that this is going to happen.
It really seems there like Job is lamenting that an afterlife is not the case.
But I could easily be wrong.
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TLC
If this were an any day, everyday, discussion, I'd be inclined to simply let the "call upon His name" being spoken of in reference to God slide by. However, considering the doctrinal format of the discussion, I'm compelled to point out that the scriptural basis for your statement clearly refers to the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord who is called upon (and not God.)
So, regardless of whether it's Budda or Muhammad or Confucius in persona, salvation still centers upon the one (and only one) whom God has set as the propitiation for sin, the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence, think or say whatever you want, Wilbur... no man (that means, no exceptions) cometh unto the Father, but by the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no alternate way, path or belief system that finds a way around or gets you there.
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TLC
If one were convinced that the heavens that be would remain and be "forever and ever," I suppose they might think Job thought likewise. But that's not what I see as Job's perspective on the matter. Hence, in the preceding verse 12, it seems to say that after a certain (undefined) length of time, the heavens would be no more, after which men shall awake (from death) and be raised out of their sleep. That the heavens will be no more at a certain point in time is attested to further in numerous other places throughout the scriptures.
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Raf
As I read the whole chapter, verse 12 does not actually look like it's looking forward to a later promise. Rather, it looks very much like this awakening you mention will never take place at all.
Mind you, this is Job speaking in despair, so it's not quite doctrine.
I asked for an unequivocal reference to an afterlife. I humbly submit that Job 14 is equivocal at best, and at worst it reflects an active belief in no afterlife at all.
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TLC
Okay, if you want to pass on that, then pop on over to Dan.12:13. (Though, I suspect several probably reside in Psalms somewhere.)
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Raf
That's a lot less ambiguous.
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TLC
There are, of course, other verses (such as Romans 6:9, 1Cor.15:22,53-54, or Philip.3:21) that unequivocally refer to an afterlife, or another (eternal) kind of life, but I presume you were asking for any that might be found in earlier writings. Interestingly enough, however, is the notion that not all life is (or needs to be) identical and/or exactly the same. But just how any (eternal) life might differ is neither clear nor certain. Jesus Christ said "In my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2), while Paul spoke of certain rewards that could be added (or not added) to the next life (1Cor.3:14-15.) If in this present world we see such vast variances of temporal life, should we think God is somehow restricted to less, or not capable of even more, for the eternal? So, while the essence of salvation might start with, be capsulized in, and simply summarized as "the attainment of eternal life," it doesn't seem to effectively grasp what may be the whole truth of it. In other words, I'm not particularly convinced or persuaded that "salvation" has the exact same meaning (or end result) for all mankind throughout the scriptures, which may also help explain (at least in part) why "the good news" of said salvation appears to have some differences when revealed to different people, at different times.
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Raf
I'm not questioning whether the Bible speaks of an afterlife. It obviously does. I'm questioning WHEN that belief began to surface. I submit it was rather late in the theological development of the,Hebrew religion.
I could be wrong.
Does Moses make an unambiguous reference to an afterlife?
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TLC
I do think there are earlier references to an afterlife, Raf, but as for any of them being deemed "unambiguous," well... that's another matter. No doubt the Sadducees were quite adept with the ambiguity angle, whenever or wherever the Pharisees pointed out a reference to a resurrection of any sort. But setting aside the "unambiguous" request (which I'm somewhat inclined to think unlikely to be found), it might be interesting to seek out the "least ambiguous" references. Given that criteria, I'd go right straight to Abraham, who I think may have been the first to believe in resurrection (or perhaps, the resurrection of the Messiah), and of life after death. It would probably take a little bit of scripture build up to paint a clear enough picture, but it seems there's just no other explanation that's as reasonable or sensible as to why he would so willingly sacrifice the life of his only son, Isaac.
And from that perspective, I'd have to strongly disagree that the belief in an afterlife only surfaced late in the theological development of the Hebrew religion, as it places it right smack dab at the start of it. As for Moses and anything that's written in the law, the sacrifices were a figure of that which was yet to come. I suppose that when two goats were chosen, and lots cast between them as to which would be sacrificed and which would later be loosed in the wilderness, the scapegoat (that carried away all the sins of the people) might be a certain foreshadowing of life after death.
As a caveat to this, I'm actually not persuaded that Adam didn't also know and believe in an afterlife, as I am of the opinion that it was part of God's original plan for man. What I'm not so sure about, however, is how much of that plan was (and wasn't) revealed to Adam.
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Raf
For an "afterlife" reference in Genesis, you would satisfy my request for a reference in Moses, since he* wrote Genesis. I would be pleased to see such a reference, either explicit or by implication.
The interesting thing here is to avoid "backreading," (for lack of a better word). That is, we KNOW there are later references to an afterlife, so we are inclined to read them into earlier verses, even though the original writers or readers would not necessarily have done so. That's why I'm looking for something unambiguous. A reference can be implicit and unambiguous, of course.
And again, all this does relate to your original question in that the concept of "salvation" requires a promise of an afterlife. (Not that you suggested I was off topic, but you're not the only person reading this thread).
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Raf
Job 19:25-26 seems pretty unambiguous to me, and it's my understanding that Job is fairly early, so my hypothesis would appear to be incorrect.
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Raf
How would Job have considered himself worthy of the promise of an afterlife?
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TLC
Whether it was intentional or not, I find what you might refer to as being interesting to avoid makes this more difficult to respond to. Namely because of several things that seem (to me, at least) to be rather obvious:
Therefore, if the primary objective is to identify when the belief in an afterlife began to surface (as it appears to be, given your earlier post), I don't see the point of requiring it to be specifically identified and spelled out as such in something that Moses wrote. Moses reveals the story of Abraham, and the incident of his offering his son Isaac as a sacrifice (as was requested by God.) But certain details are missing. However, the writer of Hebrews (which I believe is Paul) later reveals some of these missing details, which helps explain the incident further, and why Abraham so willingly acted as he did. (see Hebrews 11:17-19, which seems to rather plainly reveal that Abraham, having received a vision or revelation of some sort, believed that after Isaac was killed, God would raise him from the dead.) If by chance Abraham is actually the first to be fully persuaded of this, perhaps it is the reason why he is referred to as the father of all who subsequently would likewise believe.
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TLC
Yes, good verses. Seems I skipped over them when moving on from the earlier verses in Job.
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TLC
I don't see that he did, or why he would. But, likewise with Abraham. And neither do I consider or think of myself as worthy of said promise. In short, I don't believe personal worthiness is the right criteria for anyone for the attainment of said promise (not even the LJC.)
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DontWorryBeHappy
How many angels can dance on the end of a pin?
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Raf
Maybe "worthy" was the wrong word, but he seems confident he will be raised. Assured. Not that he deserves it. But expects it.
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TLC
Agreed, there is indeed the indication of a confidence, or an expectation, or an assurance. I suppose then your question might not have meant to be so much what (or how) it is, but why it is. Would you care to clarify?
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Raf
My question is: Job appears to have believed he would be raised again (hence, he was saved).
What was the basis of that belief?
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TLC
Hmmm....
Given that I think his basis for salvation isn't that same as it is for anyone living today, that perspective doesn't make it so easy to answer. Quite frankly, I haven't given this that much thought before. (And even if I had, I honestly don't know how sure I'd be in whatever could be said about it.) If Job lived in a day and time before Abraham, as seems likely, there's a whole bunch of stuff that we don't know, including just how God might have operated or worked with man in that day and time. Perhaps there's some things (like "without faith it is impossible to please him") that would also be relevant to Job, but I suspect it was a far simpler time and such a list is going to be very short
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TLC
Although it appears to be rather plainly written that there was a promise of eternal life even before this world (or age) began (Titus 1:2), the extent to which it might have been known and/or was and wasn't revealed to various men throughout the annals of history (not to mention how much of that anyone did or didn't believe) isn't as obvious.
So answering the question asked is, in a certain sense, complicated by a lack of not knowing what all Job did or didn't know about God's promise of eternal life. (And he evidently knew something of it.) However, in another sense, it is made simple by understanding that whatever he did have and know about it, he believed. In other words, he trusted God, and took him at his word. And that, to the best of my understanding, was the basis for his salvation.
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