Well then. That may just wrap up this topic. Did anyone comment in support of the wierwille nonsense? I don't think so. But DWBH nicely summarized and put a couple of salient exclamation points on the subject. Thanks, DWBH.
Rocky, yes! We're on the same side, perhaps the written bit didn't come through as well as it might have done if spoken. DL does well to question - everything! Thank God for the ability to use our critical thinking skills - again.
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If you one were to believe that cancer is caused by devil spirits, then also remember:
That Jesus Christ is bigger than, and casts out, devil spirits.
By no means did I intend to criticize your question, nor would I criticize anyone for honestly questioning anything DPW taught or implied. I simply tried to define the context in which your question is set, i.e. wierwille's advanced class. It is within THAT context that I posted what I did above.
I apologize if you took any personal offense at what I posted. I meant no such offense to come from what I wrote. Love and peace to you.
Oh, no DWBH ... I never took any personal offense at what you posted. I was referring to when Twinky talked about me having "Waybrain" just because I framed my question based on what we were taught in TWI about cancer being caused by devil spirits ... which I have not believed for quite a while. I always understand where you are coming from, DWBH ... Love and peace to you, too.
A virus is a lifeform, as is a fungus. Both have "a life of their own."
Cancer's a misfire in the body's immune system. We don't yet know all the possible triggers,
but the answer is VERY complicated because there's lots of risk factors, including some genetic ones
and exposure ones (it can run in families, exposure to a known carcinogen, especially over time, can lead to it).
However, we don't have ALL the answers on it now, we may never have all the answers to it.
I'd buy that devils could inspire unhealthy behaviours, and those unhealthy behaviours would be risk factors
to cause cancer. There's no need to make up an entire system of "and devils can affect biology directly,
but only under certain super-specific instances", which is what would be needed to try to accomodate the
twi doctrine in any consistent fashion.
In short, vpw made lots of stupid claims which were picked up by others. This was one of them. There's no
evidence of any kind to support this one that isn't easy to dismiss.
WW, thank-you!! I had cancer 12 years ago. I have no idea how, or why I got it. I know when I took the AC in 1985, VPW stated that cancer is caused by devil spirits. I thought he had no idea of what he
was talking about. I am a 12 year survivor of cancer, so I know something about cancer. Back in 2004, I was informed that I had breast cancer. OMG!! I still have no idea how I ended up with it. But I had three different doctors, check it out for me. Everyone of them informed me, that my cancer was real. After I got over the shock that I had it, I followed my doctor's suggestion to the letter. I had my breast operation, and than chemo. Whew, for those of you have never had chemo, I can tell you that it is not fun; but I think that God took care of me at every turn of my cancer. After the chemo, I had six weeks of radiation therapy. All through out my cancer, I worked. One thing I did NOT do was whine and complain about why I had cancer, while others had been spared. I knew that if I did all that I could do, God would do the rest. And he did!! To this day, I think all the people in the DC Medical Center who helped me thru my cancer are Angels!! Well, thank God, 12 years later, I am alive and can write about my bout with Cancer. It was not a fun time, but I am thankful to live to write about it. I think VPW knew nothing about what causes Cancer. I also think that because I kept the focus on God, and did what I needed to, God has blessed me with several years of life.
So, let's see. VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille died from cancer. Uncle (He was somebody's uncle, but not mine.) Harry died from cancer. Don Wierwille died from cancer.....I'm starting to think they may not have known as much about cancer as they thought they did.
I can understand why people might think cancer is caused by devil spirits, based on the fact that some people in TWI who had spiritual problems died from cancer, based on alcoholism, cigarette smoking, and other unhealthy behaviors. I have a bit of trouble believing that ALL cancer is caused by devil spirits. I know VPW and LCM taught that, but I am skeptical...any one got any insights on that? I know the "cancer has a life of its own" argument, but doesn't a virus have a life of its own? (Not a medical background here.) Not trying to provoke a doctrinal argument...just wanting to understand why folks believe that. I am not sure I do.
DL, I know a bit about cancer. I had Breast Cancer 13 years ago. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. Yet, I still ended up with it. I don't think my Cancer was caused by DS; I think Craig, and VPW were DS themselves. How I got Cancer, is a mystery to me. However, once I got it, I got it taken care of immediately!! So far, I haven't had it since, thank God!!
Yes, some interesting distinctions are born of attributing symptoms to devil spirits. Someone is said to be "possessed of" such and such spirit. Another is "under the influence of" a devil spirit (this was some how not quite as bad, but still a problem). Later, I remember when Don Wierwille died of cancer, the Craiggers wading in on this topic. He brought up the "spirit of infirmity" is as a devil spirit cause of physical disease. There might not have even been sinfulness on the part of the afflicted. It was an attack of the adversary. (Also, smoking too, maybe.)
I think cancer as devil spirit is a logical conclusion if you have first accepted the illogical premise that all life is spirit. We were taught that spirit was either spirit of God, a spirit of the devil, or the spirit of man (aka soul life). It's pretty easy to see this has big gaps as WW pointed out. What about fungus, plants, microbes, etc? In as much as cancer has "life of it's own", which category does it belong in? God is supposed to be all good so not Him. Obviously not a man, so that just leaves devil spirits.
But then as you point out, if cancer is a devil spirit affliction, what does that even mean? Is it in your mind (that was how it was supposed to work right?) or is it in your body at some level? The more you try to explain it, the farther off the rails you have to go.
In short, no, cancer is not caused by devil spirits.
SF, you are so right!! Sometimes, no matter how healthy a lifestyle you live, you can still get cancer. I know VPW was an alcoholic, and he smoked a lot. I on the other hand, don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, and I got Breast Cancer.
I've been reading this thread with interest. The long lasting ill-effects of dictor paul's whacky interpretations of B.G. Leonard and J.E.Stiles ( among many others) show themselves in the daft acceptance that dictor's "insight" into the "holy spirit field" somehow still applies to 21st century REALITY. Let me assure you, in no way is this "hooky-pookism" relevant to ANYTHING real. It is a drunken, malignant narcissistic delusion DPW came up with to continue to bedazzle his followers with his hyperthalmic babble.
DogLover's entire question rests upon Vic's goofy advanced class "definitions" and anecdotal ramblings. Who, besides dic and B.G. says "everything with life in and of itself is spirit"? Who, besides dic and B.G. "define" discerning of spirits as those two do? Who says "cancer has life of itself"? Who says cancer is a debbil spurt at all? Who says such things as a "spirit of infirmity" or a "spirit of cancer" actually exist? Who interprets the Old Testament and gospel events of "exorcisms" as they do? Why are their teachings and doctrines ASSUMED to be worth anything let alone "rightly divided scripture"? Answer? NO ONE BUT WAYFERS and LEONARD's disciples. These fantasy myths are not worthy to be a logical, reasonable basis for any meaningful conversation outside the confines of wierwilleism and Leonardism IMO.
There is NO basis in fact for any of this garbage. It's ALL a matter of what you choose to believe and accept as "rightly divided Truth". Well......I reject ALL OF IT as the insane ramblings of a drunken, malignant paranoid narcissistic personality disorder, and the accompanying COMPULSIVE pathological lying and numerous character defects which also accompany it. It is not sane, logical, replicable, or documentable. It is not "equal" to science, psychiatry, clinical psychology, or LICSW counseling. It is purely and only anecdotal. It depends completely upon the belief of the followers of these men.....i.e. faith. Therefore, it bears no responsibility for objective, logical critique because it is a "matter of faith", not fact, science, or logic.
With the wonderful advancement of scientific and technological diagnostics, both somatic and psychological, the understanding and effective treatment of all forms of cancer and psychiatric disorders, has made phenomenal progress to the benefit of millions of people. The mapping of the human Genome, advanced diagnostic tools such as the PET scan, quantum physics, electrochemistry, biology and physiology, 3-D printing of human organs and body parts, the ongoing synaptic and electrochemical mapping of the human brain along with specific effective medication regimens which did not exist previously, have all gone far beyond vic's dead bible interpretations and drunken ramblings. To use his teachings as a context for anything REAL is a fruitless waste of time IMO.
As an RN, I have spent much time in education and training in psychiatric nursing and pharmacology. I have over a thousand clinical hours in actual clinical dealings with hundreds of patients. I have seen hundreds of patients who TWIt-n-vic would have "automatically" diagnosed as " possessed", by so-called "revelation" manifestations as defined and taught by Leonard and DP. Unfortunately for you wierwilleites, none of his BS ever helped any one of them!
In current Psychiatric Medicine and Psychiatric Nursing, there is diagnostic room for matters of "faith and demon possession". There is recognition in Psychiatric Nursing of the spiritual component in EVERY Nursing Care Plan for each individual patient.
Experientially, I have personally participated in "the casting out of devils" during my 16 years in TWIt. Yes! I did see miraculous results and instant healings in the name of Jesus Christ. That is one of the biggest reasons I choose to be a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ, The Boss! I have seen "spiritual things", and, in my spiritual life I stick with Christ by free will choice. I do not believe my experiences are either the norm or standard for all "Christian believers", nor should they be. Dictor Paul Wierwille DID. He was WRONG!
As a Christian, I believe in the "realm of the Spirit" as defined and demonstrated in many parts of the Bible. I DO NOT believe one single thing DPW ever taught. Not one. However, I will never discount the reality that God, and The Boss, Jesus Christ can do whatever they want anywhere at any time and in any manner They choose. I simply don't limit them to any man-made boxes, most especially those which came out of dp's diseased brain and drunken mind. No theology, ideology, religion, or dogma can define or limit God and The Christ. NONE. Those who think they can are sorely self-deluded.
So......I don't think ANY cancer or any other somatic or psychiatric disease is caused by debbil spurts. I don't think "everything gives off something" like debbil spurts. The definition of "anything with life in and of itself" as "spirit" is ABSURD in any context IMO, both as a nursing professional and a spiritual Christian. The current science and medicine leaves room for "spiritual components" without relying upon first century beliefs, practices, or "science". I believe in REALITY. And as Jesus said: "The Truth (REALITY) shall make you free." GET REAL people.................peace.
DWBH, excellent post!!! Thanks, and God bless you!!!
Well then. That may just wrap up this topic. Did anyone comment in support of the wierwille nonsense? I don't think so. But DWBH nicely summarized and put a couple of salient exclamation points on the subject. Thanks, DWBH.
Rocky, I think it is wonderful that DWBH, debunked VPW's garbage from a Medical, and Christian POV. Again, thanks DWBH!!
Rocky, yes! We're on the same side, perhaps the written bit didn't come through as well as it might have done if spoken. DL does well to question - everything! Thank God for the ability to use our critical thinking skills - again.
Like this better?
If you one were to believe that cancer is caused by devil spirits, then also remember:
That Jesus Christ is bigger than, and casts out, devil spirits.
Carry on thinking :)
Twinky, that is true. But, I prayed about my Breast Cancer, and then had it taken care of at the DCVAMC, in DC. I did exactly what I was told to do, and when I was told to do it. I know a lot of people look down at VA Hospitals, but my Medical Team was great. One of my Doctors told me, I was the talk of the VA, but I had no idea what he was meant. When I first learned I had Breast Cancer, I cried, and cried. Then I took action. My Chemo sessions weren't fun, but hell, neither was Boot Camp. Then I had Radiation Treatments, and they weren't fun either. But, I am a female Veteran, so I am tougher than a Brillo Pad. The Breast Surgery wasn't fun either, but having my sister with me after the surgery was!! Thank the good Lord, that I am a Veteran, and the VA paid for almost everything. Now, I understand why God wanted me to join the Navy.
I believe Jesus Christ can heal all manner of diseases, whether by casting out devil spirits, or directly healing, or working through the hands, minds and skills of medical staff. Thank God we live in a time where there are ways of combatting the diseases! Thank God we live long enough to get these diseases (emphasis on the "living long enough"). I learned long ago that praying for healing doesn't preclude the use of drugs to get rid of disease.
I sometimes wonder if the "leprosy" of OT books like Lev 14, 15 etc might be referring not to leprosy as we now understand it but to cancers of various types. Certainly more modern translations when referring to diseased people often translate "leprosy" as "serious skin disease." Could be cancers that's actually being discussed.
Chemo and radiation treatment aren't fun, but they surely beat the alternative of dying a painful death. Glad you've come through it well, GVC.
Twinky, that is true. But, I prayed about my Breast Cancer, and then had it taken care of at the DCVAMC, in DC. I did exactly what I was told to do, and when I was told to do it. I know a lot of people look down at VA Hospitals, but my Medical Team was great. One of my Doctors told me, I was the talk of the VA, but I had no idea what he was meant. When I first learned I had Breast Cancer, I cried, and cried. Then I took action. My Chemo sessions weren't fun, but hell, neither was Boot Camp. Then I had Radiation Treatments, and they weren't fun either. But, I am a female Veteran, so I am tougher than a Brillo Pad. The Breast Surgery wasn't fun either, but having my sister with me after the surgery was!! Thank the good Lord, that I am a Veteran, and the VA paid for almost everything. Now, I understand why God wanted me to join the Navy.
glad you're ok Grace - and thank you for your service - you are one tough sister !
I believe Jesus Christ can heal all manner of diseases, whether by casting out devil spirits, or directly healing, or working through the hands, minds and skills of medical staff. Thank God we live in a time where there are ways of combatting the diseases! Thank God we live long enough to get these diseases (emphasis on the "living long enough"). I learned long ago that praying for healing doesn't preclude the use of drugs to get rid of disease.
I sometimes wonder if the "leprosy" of OT books like Lev 14, 15 etc might be referring not to leprosy as we now understand it but to cancers of various types. Certainly more modern translations when referring to diseased people often translate "leprosy" as "serious skin disease." Could be cancers that's actually being discussed.
Chemo and radiation treatment aren't fun, but they surely beat the alternative of dying a painful death. Glad you've come through it well, GVC.
So, let's see. VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille died from cancer. Uncle (He was somebody's uncle, but not mine.) Harry died from cancer. Don Wierwille died from cancer.....I'm starting to think they may not have known as much about cancer as they thought they did.
Or perhaps there were other factors involved. I know Don smoked for years, and years. Perhaps that was a factor. VPW smoked, and drank excessively, for years. Personally, I think VPW'S claims about Cancer being DS was a lot of Bullsheet!!. Perhaps if he hadn't smoked, or been an alcoholic, he might not have died of Cancer. I have no idea if Harry, smoked or drank in excess. I know people who don't drink, or smoke, can still die of cancer. Cancer is a horrible disease, and there is still much that is unknown about it. Leave it to VPW to claim that it was a DS. That was an easy answer to a very complex medical problem.
Well then. That may just wrap up this topic. Did anyone comment in support of the wierwille nonsense? I don't think so. But DWBH nicely summarized and put a couple of salient exclamation points on the subject. Thanks, DWBH.
In my opinion, DWBH seems like he knows what he is/was talking about. VPW didn't.
In my opinion, DWBH seems like he knows what he is/was talking about. VPW didn't.
DWBH has a medical background. DWBH has both study and experience in medicine, at some level. vpw didn't- and still spoke at length on cancer. It was common for vpw to speak at length on topics on which he was factually ignorant.
DWBH has a medical background. DWBH has both study and experience in medicine, at some level. vpw didn't- and still spoke at length on cancer. It was common for vpw to speak at length on topics on which he was factually ignorant.
So very true!! I can tell that DWBH, knows what he/she is talking about. No way could DWBH have that much knowledge about Cancer, and not know what he/she is talking about. Yes, a lot of Con-Men like VPW speak about things they know nothing about. It was obvious to me during the AC that he didn't know what he was talking about. Such a complex issue, and he rattled off all sorts of garbage about it. That was a red flag to me!!
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WordWolf
DWBH has a medical background. DWBH has both study and experience in medicine, at some level. vpw didn't- and still spoke at length on cancer. It was common for vpw to speak at length on topics on wh
shortfuse
Yes, some interesting distinctions are born of attributing symptoms to devil spirits. Someone is said to be "possessed of" such and such spirit. Another is "under the influence of" a devil spirit
shortfuse
I don't know where the "life of it's own" test came from. I don't see it in the Bible. I don't think you can prove the "all life is spirit" claim, upon which this is based. Minus five points for u
Rocky
Well then. That may just wrap up this topic. Did anyone comment in support of the wierwille nonsense? I don't think so. But DWBH nicely summarized and put a couple of salient exclamation points on the subject. Thanks, DWBH.
Edited by RockyBecause I wanted to...
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DontWorryBeHappy
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DogLover
Thank you for understanding, Rocky. Questioning was exactly what I was doing.
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Twinky
Rocky, yes! We're on the same side, perhaps the written bit didn't come through as well as it might have done if spoken. DL does well to question - everything! Thank God for the ability to use our critical thinking skills - again.
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youone were to believe that cancer is caused by devil spirits, then also remember:Carry on thinking :)
Edited by Twinky:)
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Twinky
:)
Edited by TwinkyOops, double post
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi DogLover!
By no means did I intend to criticize your question, nor would I criticize anyone for honestly questioning anything DPW taught or implied. I simply tried to define the context in which your question is set, i.e. wierwille's advanced class. It is within THAT context that I posted what I did above.
I apologize if you took any personal offense at what I posted. I meant no such offense to come from what I wrote. Love and peace to you.
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DogLover
Oh, no DWBH ... I never took any personal offense at what you posted. I was referring to when Twinky talked about me having "Waybrain" just because I framed my question based on what we were taught in TWI about cancer being caused by devil spirits ... which I have not believed for quite a while. I always understand where you are coming from, DWBH ... Love and peace to you, too.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Thanks DogLover.
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW, thank-you!! I had cancer 12 years ago. I have no idea how, or why I got it. I know when I took the AC in 1985, VPW stated that cancer is caused by devil spirits. I thought he had no idea of what he
was talking about. I am a 12 year survivor of cancer, so I know something about cancer. Back in 2004, I was informed that I had breast cancer. OMG!! I still have no idea how I ended up with it. But I had three different doctors, check it out for me. Everyone of them informed me, that my cancer was real. After I got over the shock that I had it, I followed my doctor's suggestion to the letter. I had my breast operation, and than chemo. Whew, for those of you have never had chemo, I can tell you that it is not fun; but I think that God took care of me at every turn of my cancer. After the chemo, I had six weeks of radiation therapy. All through out my cancer, I worked. One thing I did NOT do was whine and complain about why I had cancer, while others had been spared. I knew that if I did all that I could do, God would do the rest. And he did!! To this day, I think all the people in the DC Medical Center who helped me thru my cancer are Angels!! Well, thank God, 12 years later, I am alive and can write about my bout with Cancer. It was not a fun time, but I am thankful to live to write about it. I think VPW knew nothing about what causes Cancer. I also think that because I kept the focus on God, and did what I needed to, God has blessed me with several years of life.
and
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waysider
So, let's see. VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille died from cancer. Uncle (He was somebody's uncle, but not mine.) Harry died from cancer. Don Wierwille died from cancer.....I'm starting to think they may not have known as much about cancer as they thought they did.
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Grace Valerie Claire
DL, I know a bit about cancer. I had Breast Cancer 13 years ago. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. Yet, I still ended up with it. I don't think my Cancer was caused by DS; I think Craig, and VPW were DS themselves. How I got Cancer, is a mystery to me. However, once I got it, I got it taken care of immediately!! So far, I haven't had it since, thank God!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
SF, you are so right!! Sometimes, no matter how healthy a lifestyle you live, you can still get cancer. I know VPW was an alcoholic, and he smoked a lot. I on the other hand, don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, and I got Breast Cancer.
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, excellent post!!!
Thanks, and God bless you!!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, I think it is wonderful that DWBH, debunked VPW's garbage from a Medical, and Christian POV. Again, thanks DWBH!!
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DontWorryBeHappy
You're welcome GVC!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, that is true. But, I prayed about my Breast Cancer, and then had it taken care of at the DCVAMC, in DC. I did exactly what I was told to do, and when I was told to do it. I know a lot of people look down at VA Hospitals, but my Medical Team was great. One of my Doctors told me, I was the talk of the VA, but I had no idea what he was meant. When I first learned I had Breast Cancer, I cried, and cried. Then I took action. My Chemo sessions weren't fun, but hell, neither was Boot Camp. Then I had Radiation Treatments, and they weren't fun either. But, I am a female Veteran, so I am tougher than a Brillo Pad. The Breast Surgery wasn't fun either, but having my sister with me after the surgery was!! Thank the good Lord, that I am a Veteran, and the VA paid for almost everything. Now, I understand why God wanted me to join the Navy.
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Twinky
I believe Jesus Christ can heal all manner of diseases, whether by casting out devil spirits, or directly healing, or working through the hands, minds and skills of medical staff. Thank God we live in a time where there are ways of combatting the diseases! Thank God we live long enough to get these diseases (emphasis on the "living long enough"). I learned long ago that praying for healing doesn't preclude the use of drugs to get rid of disease.
I sometimes wonder if the "leprosy" of OT books like Lev 14, 15 etc might be referring not to leprosy as we now understand it but to cancers of various types. Certainly more modern translations when referring to diseased people often translate "leprosy" as "serious skin disease." Could be cancers that's actually being discussed.
Chemo and radiation treatment aren't fun, but they surely beat the alternative of dying a painful death. Glad you've come through it well, GVC.
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T-Bone
glad you're ok Grace - and thank you for your service - you are one tough sister !
love and peace
T-Bone
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Grace Valerie Claire
Thanks!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Thanks!!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Or perhaps there were other factors involved. I know Don smoked for years, and years. Perhaps that was a factor. VPW smoked, and drank excessively, for years. Personally, I think VPW'S claims about Cancer being DS was a lot of Bullsheet!!. Perhaps if he hadn't smoked, or been an alcoholic, he might not have died of Cancer. I have no idea if Harry, smoked or drank in excess. I know people who don't drink, or smoke, can still die of cancer. Cancer is a horrible disease, and there is still much that is unknown about it. Leave it to VPW to claim that it was a DS. That was an easy answer to a very complex medical problem.
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Grace Valerie Claire
In my opinion, DWBH seems like he knows what he is/was talking about. VPW didn't.
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WordWolf
DWBH has a medical background. DWBH has both study and experience in medicine, at some level. vpw didn't- and still spoke at length on cancer. It was common for vpw to speak at length on topics on which he was factually ignorant.
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Grace Valerie Claire
So very true!! I can tell that DWBH, knows what he/she is talking about. No way could DWBH have that much knowledge about Cancer, and not know what he/she is talking about. Yes, a lot of Con-Men like VPW speak about things they know nothing about. It was obvious to me during the AC that he didn't know what he was talking about. Such a complex issue, and he rattled off all sorts of garbage about it. That was a red flag to me!!
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