Cancer

[DogLover]

I can understand why people might think cancer is caused by devil spirits, based on the fact that some people in TWI who had spiritual problems died from cancer, based on alcoholism, cigarette smoking, and other unhealthy behaviors. I have a bit of trouble believing that ALL cancer is caused by devil spirits. I know VPW and LCM taught that, but I am skeptical...any one got any insights on that? I know the "cancer has a life of its own" argument, but doesn't a virus have a life of its own? (Not a medical background here.) Not trying to provoke a doctrinal argument...just wanting to understand why folks believe that. I am not sure I do.

[Galen]

Without an actual 'chapter and verse' passage on hand saying that cancer is caused by spirit, I would be sceptical.

Part of what I liked about TWI, when we got into it, was the insistence of 'chapter and versing' topics.

I tried to up-hold that standard, but for some people that idea was lost quickly.

[TLC]

(clip)

I know the "cancer has a life of its own" argument, but doesn't a virus have a life of its own? (Not a medical background here.) Not trying to provoke a doctrinal argument...just wanting to understand why folks believe that. I am not sure I do.

Let's see... cancer = "life of its own" = must be spirit,

and fetus = "life of its own" = (but doesn't breath air, so...) must not be spirit?

Now that makes a lotta sense.

[WordWolf]

I can understand why people might think cancer is caused by devil spirits, based on the fact that some people in TWI who had spiritual problems died from cancer, based on alcoholism, cigarette smoking, and other unhealthy behaviors. I have a bit of trouble believing that ALL cancer is caused by devil spirits. I know VPW and LCM taught that, but I am skeptical...any one got any insights on that? I know the "cancer has a life of its own" argument, but doesn't a virus have a life of its own? (Not a medical background here.) Not trying to provoke a doctrinal argument...just wanting to understand why folks believe that. I am not sure I do.

A virus is a lifeform, as is a fungus. Both have "a life of their own."

Cancer's a misfire in the body's immune system. We don't yet know all the possible triggers,

but the answer is VERY complicated because there's lots of risk factors, including some genetic ones

and exposure ones (it can run in families, exposure to a known carcinogen, especially over time, can lead to it).

However, we don't have ALL the answers on it now, we may never have all the answers to it.

I'd buy that devils could inspire unhealthy behaviours, and those unhealthy behaviours would be risk factors

to cause cancer. There's no need to make up an entire system of "and devils can affect biology directly,

but only under certain super-specific instances", which is what would be needed to try to accomodate the

twi doctrine in any consistent fashion.

In short, vpw made lots of stupid claims which were picked up by others. This was one of them. There's no

evidence of any kind to support this one that isn't easy to dismiss.

[TLC]

Let's see... cancer = "life of its own" = must be spirit,

and fetus = "life of its own" = (but doesn't breath air, so...) must not be spirit?

Now that makes a lotta sense.

In other words, how/where spirit can and/or does operate ought to be considered.

Can or does it operate in a lump of flesh, aside from the mind?

(Personally, I'm inclined to think not. Rather difficult to prove, though.)

Edited July 28, 2016 by TLC

[Bolshevik]

Everything gives off something.

Dust bunnies under the fridge contain debil spurts. You don't want those in your home, do you? Un-mowed grass has the power to take down HQ.

So naturally cancer is like dust bunnies in your body.

[Twinky]

DogLover... You appear to be suffering from Waybrain, so sorry! The super-spiritual (LOL! gasp!!) man invented it. Or was listening to the wrong kind of spirits (liquid ones, maybe.) And don't forget that Mr Super-Spiritual died of cancer; more than one type.

But anyway:

1. If you were to believe that cancer is caused by devil spirits, then also remember:

2. Then also believe that Jesus Christ is bigger than, and casts out, devil spirits.

No problem!!

[shortfuse]

In other words, how/where spirit can and/or does operate ought to be considered.

Can or does it operate in a lump of flesh, aside from the mind?

(Personally, I'm inclined to think not. Rather difficult to prove, though.)

Yes, some interesting distinctions are born of attributing symptoms to devil spirits. Someone is said to be "possessed of" such and such spirit. Another is "under the influence of" a devil spirit (this was some how not quite as bad, but still a problem). Later, I remember when Don Wierwille died of cancer, the Craiggers wading in on this topic. He brought up the "spirit of infirmity" is as a devil spirit cause of physical disease. There might not have even been sinfulness on the part of the afflicted. It was an attack of the adversary. (Also, smoking too, maybe.)

I think cancer as devil spirit is a logical conclusion if you have first accepted the illogical premise that all life is spirit. We were taught that spirit was either spirit of God, a spirit of the devil, or the spirit of man (aka soul life). It's pretty easy to see this has big gaps as WW pointed out. What about fungus, plants, microbes, etc? In as much as cancer has "life of it's own", which category does it belong in? God is supposed to be all good so not Him. Obviously not a man, so that just leaves devil spirits.

But then as you point out, if cancer is a devil spirit affliction, what does that even mean? Is it in your mind (that was how it was supposed to work right?) or is it in your body at some level? The more you try to explain it, the farther off the rails you have to go.

In short, no, cancer is not caused by devil spirits.

[TLC]

(clipped)

In as much as cancer has "life of it's own", which category does it belong in?

Does all cancer have "life of it's own" or life in and of itself?

(I seem to recall it being said/taught in TWI that not all did.)

What does it even mean to have life in itself? Quite frankly, I don't know.

Maybe somebody that does know can (try to) explain it.

(clipped)

But then as you point out, if cancer is a devil spirit affliction, what does that even mean? Is it in your mind (that was how it was supposed to work right?) or is it in your body at some level? The more you try to explain it, the farther off the rails you have to go.

In short, no, cancer is not caused by devil spirits.

As I see it, there's significant differences between cancer being a devil spirit, all cancer being caused by a devil spirit, and some cancer possibly being the result of devil spirits.

When Jesus Christ healed the leapers, or the blind man in John 9:1ff (as well as others)... were devil spirits cast out? It doesn't say that.

But when he healed dumb and blind men in other instances (Matt. 9:32; 12:22), they plainly were.

So, might cancer somehow be caused by a devil spirit?

In some instances, I suppose it might.

Would that axiomatically mean that it always is?

Not necessarily.

How many instances of physical issues might be attributed to a spiritual cause? Maybe not all that many.

But I'd think it not entirely impossible for nearly any of them, maybe even including a headache.

(far, far, FAR too much focus on and talk about devil spirits in TWI. Most of it of little or no value...)

Edited July 28, 2016 by TLC

[JayDee]

I try to keep this "devil spirits cause" subject simple for myself. 1st, how many devil spirits can there be? 1 giant cancer causing "spirit",or millions of cancer causing "spirits", because there are so many people that have cancer around the world. I apply the same logic to any "sickness" I've heard people say are caused by "spirits". Arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, mental illness, the list goes on. Again, how many "spirits" could there possibly be out there?

Just thinking out loud here. Feel free to hammer my logic. 😎

[shortfuse]

Does all cancer have "life of it's own" or life in and of itself?

(I seem to recall it being said/taught in TWI that not all did.)

What does it even mean to have life in itself? Quite frankly, I don't know.

Maybe somebody that does know can (try to) explain it.

I don't know where the "life of it's own" test came from. I don't see it in the Bible. I don't think you can prove the "all life is spirit" claim, upon which this is based.

As I see it, there's significant differences between cancer being a devil spirit, all cancer being caused by a devil spirit, and some cancer possibly being the result of devil spirits.

When Jesus Christ healed the leapers, or the blind man in John 9:1ff (as well as others)... were devil spirits cast out? It doesn't say that.

But when he healed dumb and blind men in other instances (Matt. 9:32; 12:22), they plainly were.

So, might cancer somehow be caused by a devil spirit?

In some instances, I suppose it might.

Would that axiomatically mean that it always is?

Not necessarily.

Minus five points for using the word "axiomatically." That went out with PFAL. Sorry.

How many physical issues might this apply to? Not too many.

I'd think it not entirely impossible for nearly any or all of them, maybe even including a headache.

How could one even begin to prove such a thing? "Revelation" right? Sure, any thing is possible, that's about as far as we can go.

(far, far, FAR too much focus on and talk about devil spirits in TWI. Most of it of little or no value...)

It had tons of value to Wierwille. It gave him the appearance of being a man of great spiritual insight. It gave followers a sense that they were privy to some insider knowledge, causing them to value Wierwille and his ministry more. It lead to an unhealthy fixation that devil spirits were around every corner (perhaps even causing this headache I have right now) which in my view put people in a fearful and compliant state of mind. Don't disagree with The Way or you could be opening yourself to spirit possession.

I agree little or no value to the individual (I think this is what you meant), but plenty of value those who would exercise control.

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Excellent post Shortfuse! Thanks.

[waysider]

VP was a walking poster child for a multitude of the Advanced Class definitions of devil spirits. Either we were following a guy who was bursting with devil spirits or the whole thing was a bunch of nonsense. Either way, it doesn't look too good. Kinda funny that no one seemed to get revelation regarding the matter.

But, back to cancer. Cancer is a natural process that takes place when cells that are repairing and replacing themselves go haywire.Who knows how many thousands of times a day the average person gets (potential) "cancer"? Fortunately, most healthy bodies are able to counteract the process before it turns into full-fledged cancer.

Edited July 29, 2016 by waysider

[T-Bone]

I try to keep this "devil spirits cause" subject simple for myself. 1st, how many devil spirits can there be? 1 giant cancer causing "spirit",or millions of cancer causing "spirits", because there are so many people that have cancer around the world. I apply the same logic to any "sickness" I've heard people say are caused by "spirits". Arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, mental illness, the list goes on. Again, how many "spirits" could there possibly be out there?

Just thinking out loud here. Feel free to hammer my logic. 😎

You have a good point there, Jay Dee - there would have to be a ginormous cancer-causing army of devil spirits....

and you know, after i read your post i started thinking about all the people that thru treatment or surgery are in remission or cancer free...what happened to the supposed "poor devils" that were in that malignant tissue? were they "cast out"- or evicted from the tissue when it was destroyed or cut out? yeah, VP's "spirit diagnosis" is a throwback to the dark ages.

I read this book when i was a WOW, called World Without Cancer....i've always been technical minded and never really was fascinated by VP's stories of the devil spirit realm;

please note my disclaimer: i know zip about the world of medicine, and i have a lot of awe and respect for doctors, scientists, researchers, and any medical professionals really - but one thing i still do after reader that book is i chew up the seeds when i'm eating an apple. It hasn't killed me yet and i read that book in '76. I know what my Aunt Lucy would say to that; when i was 5 or 6 - after she saw me swallowing watermelon seeds - she said there would be a watermelon growing in my stomach. I remember thinking about that for awhile - and thought of the upside to that - i would always have an emergency stash of fruit inside. Maybe she was concerned over the spirit of watermelon i dunno.

book World Without Cancer

a little off topic here - but sort of related - i'm more concerned how we ourselves in this modern age of technology, manufacturing and development are poisoning our environment, our food, even our bodies; i sometimes imagine if we had special glasses to see all the electromagnetic waves that permeate just about everywhere - even the RF radiation from the very wires that carry 120VAC power to the outlets and lights in our homes - it would probably be as thick as pea soup !

We don't need no stinking devil spirits to mess with our health....we humans have that covered....i'm not an alarmist though - i'm going to enjoy what time i have left on this earth - you won't see me putting an aluminum triangle on top of my head....Zul would spot that right away and then i'll be a goner.

now if you'll excuse me i'm going back to my 38 inch Samsung LCD TV - jacked up with an Amazon Fire Stick in the backside and watch another episode of Lost on Netflix....technology is a beautiful thing.

[DogLover]

Interesting insights. Thanks.

[Rocky]

Either we were following a guy who was bursting with devil spirits or the whole thing was a bunch of nonsense.

I vote for the whole thing having been a bunch of nonsense.

And I agree that shortfuse nailed several points.

[skyrider]

It had tons of value to Wierwille. It gave him the appearance of being a man of great spiritual insight. It gave followers a sense that they were privy to some insider knowledge, causing them to value Wierwille and his ministry more. It lead to an unhealthy fixation that devil spirits were around every corner (perhaps even causing this headache I have right now) which in my view put people in a fearful and compliant state of mind. Don't disagree with The Way or you could be opening yourself to spirit possession.

I agree little or no value to the individual (I think this is what you meant), but plenty of value to those who would exercise control.

THIS.

Oh, and......didn't Don Wierwille succumb to this cancer spirit.....er, cancer as well?

I mean, geez....if it really was spirit infiltration or possession, then what's up with the wierwilles?

Might it be a good idea to distance yourself from the wierwilles who attract them? /sarc

[Bolshevik]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photolyase

Just posting this link. Cause I think it's cool. You can follow other related links within the wiki article.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

One thing that the devil or evil spirits are really good at doing is deception and lying. We see this in the figurative explanation from the first chapters of the book of Genesis. God said not to do this harmful thing and it will result in death. However, the devil being figuratively called the serpent said, do this and you will still live. And today we have death. One of the causes of death is cancer. The cause of death relates to the bad things that people do when deceived by the God of this world who I figuratively call the Spiritual Commander and Thief. Jesus Christ said Satan/devil is here to "steal, kill and destroy". Can he do this directly? No! Satan needs to use deception to get people to do bad things for their bodies, for example smoke a lot of cigarettes and drink a lot of alcohol to cause death by cancer. And Satan needs to use greedy people to help cause cancer in other people through companies like Monsanto. With Monsanto developing chemicals to kill weeds that also add unhealthy things to healthy plants that we eat.

[waysider]

One thing that the devil or evil spirits are really good at doing is deception and lying. We see this in the figurative explanation from the first chapters of the book of Genesis. God said not to do this harmful thing and it will result in death. However, the devil being figuratively called the serpent said, do this and you will still live. And today we have death. One of the causes of death is cancer. The cause of death relates to the bad things that people do when deceived by the God of this world who I figuratively call the Spiritual Commander and Thief. Jesus Christ said Satan/devil is here to "steal, kill and destroy". Can he do this directly? No! Satan needs to use deception to get people to do bad things for their bodies, for example smoke a lot of cigarettes and drink a lot of alcohol to cause death by cancer. And Satan needs to use greedy people to help cause cancer in other people through companies like Monsanto. With Monsanto developing chemicals to kill weeds that also add unhealthy things to healthy plants that we eat.

People get cancer sometimes through no fault of their own. You don't have to do something "bad" to get cancer. Cancer is a genetic malfunction. It is a result of cell replication gone amok. It's not caused by some evil spiritual entity. There is a lot of evidence showing how it physiologically takes place.

[Bolshevik]

http://www.nature.com/news/2003/031021/full/news031020-2.html

here's another link.

It's implications, I think, are clear.

Companies like Monsanto have been doing this a long, long, looong time.

[T-Bone]

thanks for those cool links, Bolshevik !

it makes sense about finding cancer in dinosaur remains as well as other lifeforms - and it's not just from UV rays; there's enough info available about the health problems caused by ingesting heavy metals whether in a food or water source; this world isn't perfect - carcinogens have always been present - but i think modern man's footprint has definitely upped the ante for those concerned about their quality of life.

below are a couple of links that show hits of a Google search:

heavy metals in food + water

heavy metals in food chain

[Bolshevik]

Awesome T-Bone!

There's a lot of fascinating aspects to understanding cancer, but that is beyond the scope of this site. But here's another link anyway.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2001/sep/06/medicalscience.healthandwellbeing

[T-Bone]

that's a great link too - thanks for adding that one, Bolshevik !

you know, this is one of the many reasons i like coming to Grease Spot....expanding my horizons by picking up on what others share....thanks again !

[Rocky]

On 7/28/2016 at 0:33 PM, Twinky said:

DogLover... You appear to be suffering from Waybrain, so sorry! The super-spiritual (LOL! gasp!!) man invented it. Or was listening to the wrong kind of spirits (liquid ones, maybe.) And don't forget that Mr Super-Spiritual died of cancer; more than one type.

But anyway:

1. If you were to believe that cancer is caused by devil spirits, then also remember:

2. Then also believe that Jesus Christ is bigger than, and casts out, devil spirits.

No problem!!

Well... I'd suggest that many of us have suffered from waybrain, but questioning prior beliefs from said waybrain is a major factor in moving past the malady (the waybrain). Isn't that what DogLover was doing, questioning and challenging the BS we were fed by the cult?