I firmly believe that exposure of the self-serving VPW offshoot minustrays is necessary. They are every bit the destructive cults that dictor's Way was. Jallyroll, "rev" gerry wrenn, "rev" earl burton, "rev" joooorrrrge hendley, Jim melton, geer, seed, professor von schoenheit, "Dr." dale sides, "levitical rabbi" michael rood awakening, maurice goulet, dandy don alexander, sha-na-nandra higgins, franco bottley, JP Wierwille and super-secret-double-agent "rev" douggie macmullan at SOWERS, "rev" beence finnegan and his fake kingdom cult, living hope ministries int'l, "rev" charlie "bless patrol" quillen in IL, "rev" franklin smith, and the scores of other waybrained wierwille worshippers with their own slimeball minustrays to beg for their retirement of easy donation living......LOL.
That's the purpose of these offshoot subforums. Inform, expose, drain donations. These megalomaniacs and paranoid narcissists need to held to account. Thankfully, GSC provides an extremely important venue for exposing these cults.
DWBH, I usually agree with you on most of your posts. However, IMO, I think Vince F does a great job with "his" people in the Latham, Albany area. Yes, I think many of the off-shoots may be cults; I don't know because I have never been involved with them. But years ago, I used to attend Vince's, and really enjoyed it. I haven't attended his fellowship in over 20 years, so perhaps it has changed since I left. But, I loved being in his fellowship because no one pressured me into doing things, I didn't want to do. Nor did anyone pressure me into giving money that I didn't want to give. I know that Vince has admitted that he made mistakes years ago, but I did too. I think if people want to attend his meetings, fellowships, or advances, that's great. If they don't, they don't. I didn't feel any pressure at all about anything concerning Vince. To this day, I have very fond memories of Vince. Thanks for letting me share.
I'm not opposed to the notion of developing classes, but I am opposed to the notion of charging for them unless the recipient is getting something tangible in return or it's clear that we're paying for rented space. Or both.
From my understanding of CES and, later, STFI, those who paid for the classes actually GOT the class. The whole set of tapes/CD's. That's fair. You're selling a product.
But in the case of TWI and its offshoots, it really seems to me that these classes are less about teaching than they are about cultic-socialization and indoctrination. And yes, there's a difference. Teaching develops critical thinking skills. Indoctrination does not. TWI talked a good game when it came to critical thinking, but it was manipulated to the point that what we were actually taught and encouraged to do was parrot what the organization wanted us to think and say.
Without exception, all of these "foundational classes," from PFAL to WAP to Whatever-the-devil-they're-calling-this, do not seek to teach as much as they seek to encourage group cohesion. Here's what to say. Here's how to say it. Here's what to think. Here's how to think it. Without exception, they all begin with their conclusion, and encourage us to disregard anything that challenges that conclusion.
What's the greatest secret in the world today? The Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God.
Really? That's the greatest secret in the world? Because if so, it's poorly kept. Lots of people believe that, whether they phrase it that way or not. Cures for cancer, ALS, autism, amputee regeneration? Not as secret as something believed by millions. Nonsense.
And along with being the word and will of God, it's perfect! One preposition out of place and your Bible would fall to pieces (until a preposition is shown to be out of place. Then you're nitpicking). In any other field, if you start with your conclusion and discard anything that conflicts with it, you're an intellectual fraud. But when it comes to the Bible, you're steadfast!
I attended a church in South Florida that never seemed to see a need to "run classes." If they wanted to start a class, they just started teaching on the subject every Sunday. Keep coming to church, and you've got the whole class. Yes, they recorded it, so if you wanted to see it all again, you could buy it later. But if you want to find the class from five years ago? Yeah, good luck with that.
It shouldn't be about the classes. Ever. It should be about the content, which should be shared constantly.
Anyway, good luck with this class, JALynn. I'm sure it will be an improvement over the last one, but not over the next one.
Raf, great post! I always thought the classes were to keep people coming through the door, so they would cough up their ABS money. I thought the classes were boring as s--t, but I had to have certain ones for the AC. Speaking of which, I thought the AC was the most boring class of them all. A complete waste of my time and money.
Well.....it is finished! And what a feat of personal believing and commitment it is. One for the ages ya know. JCDOA is in the can! Here's jally francencough's version of how great jallyroll was and is:
"My heartfelt thanks goes to each of these stalwart saints, with whom I now have a special bond. And when you see the finished product, which we hope to have by sometime in early November, I think you will agree that, by the abundant grace and mercy of our Father and our Lord, we succeeded. Jesus Christ: The Diameter of the Ages looks to be about 18 hours of priceless truth presented dynamically, poignantly, and humorously, while being enhanced by Franco Bottley’s heart-grabbing graphics and versatile use of state-of-the-art technology. I think you will love it!"
"We began each day with prayer, manifestations, and inspiring music (which JCDA will contain LOTS of). We prayed for each person who was praying for us, and if you are among them, and if you are among those who contributed financially to this project, THANK YOU! We could not have done what we did without the prayer support we had.We had an absolute riot! The blood test I had on July 20, the day after I got home, showed that my numbers (RBC, WBC, Platelets) are all down, meaning I have less energy, so I know it was their love, plus God, Jesus, your prayers, two oxygen tanks (free, courtesy of Marc’s doctor friend) the Bemer electromagnetic circulation stimulator (courtesy of Daniel), a throat steamer (courtesy of Christina), MRET water, Marigold bars, Epic meat bars, and Dana’s foot rubs that energized me to get through a rather grueling endeavor. THANK YOU for praying for Franco and me as we put the finishing touches on this vivid portrayal of the most unique man ever."
WOW! What a faithful moggie! Even better than his faddah-in-da-woid. What a hero ! What a fantastic bible salesmen to the glory of his own narcissistic personality disorder. I knew it would be self-obsessed and self-aggrandizing, but it has far exceeded my expectations. More of the same old cult tripe that's going on 50 years old now. Is this gonna be it? I sure hope so! There are already enough destructive JBS, right wing "Christian" nutjob cults out there. Does jeeezus really need or want yet another one? Your opinions, comments, or snide remarks are welcome.
DWBH, this is not a snide remark, but it is my opinion. I remember years ago,1979(?) when John and Pat Lynn were the Limb Leaders of New York. I used to love hearing them teach; both of them were great teachers. They were funny, and very sharp people!! I don't know why, or what happened to John, but he changed a great deal. I used to love hearing him teach; now days I don't. At one time, John used to be a true blessing for others; now days he seems to be interested in money more than blessing others.
in my humble opinion - applying the title Diameter of the Ages to Jesus Christ - always sounded kinda clunky or suggesting something high tech - with a sprig of new age thrown in to boot....maybe i'm just old fashioned - i prefer sticking to the titles applied to Jesus Christ that are given in the Bible....anyway i have no interest in his seminar - even though i noticed it was on itunes.
There's nothing I'd rather do than go sit through multiple hours of an Animatronics version of Don Knotts teaching Jesus Christ - DOA and send him money
</sarcasm>
Chock, if you hear someone laughing, it will be me!!! I love your post!
Sitting through a video presentation of ANYONE expounding the Bible again is just not something I ever want to do again! And it's not because I think the Bible is BS (I don't) or any number of negative things some may say it is -- but just because I feel I've sat through enough Bible "teachings" to last a hundred lifetimes!! Hehehe. It's funny ... the fact that one man is still doing the same thing he did for well over 30 years now -- in exact style and content and delivery -- over and over and over again ... is sorta weird to me!
Also, when I've popped on JAL's facebook page or clicked on a couple of his YouTube videos ... what I see and hear just does not seem authentic to me. It doesn't seem to be coming from the HEART of the man ... that sacred core where our deepest convictions/passions reside. His presentation almost seems robotic to me ... like some of those eerie Disney displays at the 1964 World's Fair -- where the characters look life-size and true to the human form, but move and talk in a slowed-down, mechanical way! I don't know ... maybe I'm being too harsh in my impressions. Or maybe all those teachings of "a hundred lifetimes" have just taken their toll on me. All I can say is that I've never been so thankful to have walked away when I did from the programming that I acquiesced to in TWI for far too many years! Real life and real people living in the REAL world are just a whole lot ... well ... more REAL than anything I ever lived in when I was a wayfer. Hearing JAL do his JAL thing is like going back in time to the unreal! "Get a chart - get a life"? I don't think so!
Neither do I Lani!! Never again in this lifetime!!!
I haven't been on Greasespot in... what has it been... about two years? The other day, I became curious about what TLTF and STFI have been up to. After going to their websites and finding nothing but the expected boilerplate yada yada, I came here to this thread. Needless to say, DWBH never disappoints!
Between 2003 and 2008 I taught Humane Letters at a classical academy, and from 2011 until 2016 I was doing post grad work in theological studies. I originally went into the post grad work to get formal accreditation to teach and to pick up Greek as a subject I could teach at a classical academy. So... even though I will not be able to complete my masters due to health problems... I have taught professionally, and I have studied under actual professors! My scholarship has been informally recognized as sound by professional scholars.
The CES boys, for all the writing and "classes" they churn out, are nothing but rank amateurs who lack genuine self-awareness. The reason they don't dialogue with others in the field of theology is because, if they did, their own ignorance would be shown for what it is, and they would have nothing... and I mean NOTHING AT ALL... left.
The whole idea of a recorded "class" such as PFAL or its legion of knock-offs is bogus. A "class" in which the students can ask no questions is not a real class. During a class the instructor uses the students' questions as feedback to gauge how well she or he is communicating. I have taken several classes for credit that were recorded, and I always had to keep a log of questions to be reviewed by the professor who was overseeing my work, as well as to write a final paper.
I have had to take two semesters over again because hospitalizations interrupted my work. I have had the same classes taught by the same professors, and I can say for a surety that no two classes are ever identical. The understanding of an actual teacher grows, and that growth is reflected in how the class is taught. The lack of ability to reflect growth is one of the huge drawbacks to recorded classes.
I used to know John Lynn as well as any of his thousands of "closest friends" did. I liked his public persona and relied on his leadership after The Way International went to pieces. After Momentus, he lost whatever shreds of humility he had left. Theologically, he is stuck in a dead end rut. He is not serving Jesus or the Word of God. He is serving his own arrogance. I am sorry to hear of his physical problems, having a few of my own, but it astonishes me that he relies on quack medicine as much as he does on quack theology.
I've got some comments on the REV, MRAP, but I'll post those on your doctrinal thread!
Love,
Steve
Steve, it is always a pleasure to read your posts. I pray that you regain your health. I had no idea he was into quack medicine. I know I had a bout with Cancer 13 years ago, and it wasn't a day at the beach. The DC VA Hospital took very good care of me, otherwise I would not be writing this post. I remember John years ago; he used to be very funny and sharp. What made him change for the worse, is a mystery to me. Now days from what I know about him, which admittedly is not much, he seems to be interested in money. And that's all.
I am a reporter. I cover criminal trials. I cover a lot of criminal trials. I probably know more about the law regarding crime than you do. However, if you were arrested, and I tried to represent you in court, I could probably go to jail for that. Regardless of the (assumed for the sake of argument) fact that my knowledge of the subject is greater than yours, it does not mean in any way shape or form that I am qualified to practice law.
The developers of the REV have as much business constructing a new translation of the scriptures as I have practicing law.
Raf, I didn't know you were a reporter. Perhaps that is why you have such outstanding writing skills. Interesting, to me anyway.
Wow DWBH, I never realized that JC didn't have perfect blood. What was I thinking??? Of course, he didn't, he was born of Mary. I never thought about that before. The things I learn from the GSC are fantastically!!
I haven't been on Greasespot in... what has it been... about two years? The other day, I became curious about what TLTF and STFI have been up to. After going to their websites and finding nothing but the expected boilerplate yada yada, I came here to this thread. Needless to say, DWBH never disappoints!
Between 2003 and 2008 I taught Humane Letters at a classical academy, and from 2011 until 2016 I was doing post grad work in theological studies. I originally went into the post grad work to get formal accreditation to teach and to pick up Greek as a subject I could teach at a classical academy. So... even though I will not be able to complete my masters due to health problems... I have taught professionally, and I have studied under actual professors! My scholarship has been informally recognized as sound by professional scholars.
The CES boys, for all the writing and "classes" they churn out, are nothing but rank amateurs who lack genuine self-awareness. The reason they don't dialogue with others in the field of theology is because, if they did, their own ignorance would be shown for what it is, and they would have nothing... and I mean NOTHING AT ALL... left.
The whole idea of a recorded "class" such as PFAL or its legion of knock-offs is bogus. A "class" in which the students can ask no questions is not a real class. During a class the instructor uses the students' questions as feedback to gauge how well she or he is communicating. I have taken several classes for credit that were recorded, and I always had to keep a log of questions to be reviewed by the professor who was overseeing my work, as well as to write a final paper.
I have had to take two semesters over again because hospitalizations interrupted my work. I have had the same classes taught by the same professors, and I can say for a surety that no two classes are ever identical. The understanding of an actual teacher grows, and that growth is reflected in how the class is taught. The lack of ability to reflect growth is one of the huge drawbacks to recorded classes.
I used to know John Lynn as well as any of his thousands of "closest friends" did. I liked his public persona and relied on his leadership after The Way International went to pieces. After Momentus, he lost whatever shreds of humility he had left. Theologically, he is stuck in a dead end rut. He is not serving Jesus or the Word of God. He is serving his own arrogance. I am sorry to hear of his physical problems, having a few of my own, but it astonishes me that he relies on quack medicine as much as he does on quack theology.
I've got some comments on the REV, MRAP, but I'll post those on your doctrinal thread!
Love,
Steve
Steve, I love reading your posts; they always well-written, and make me think. Steve, you pointed out something in your post, that I have never understood. Why do some people relie on "quack medicine?" If Lynn has medical problems, why doesn't he get sound medical advice? I have medical problems, and I get great medical advice, at my local VA Hospital. God expects us to use our brains; when I need a doctor, I go to one. I have never understood why some people go to quacks for medical advice. I know when I was in TWI, VPW had serious medical problems, but he didn't always deal with them. Or is that a question for a Medical Professional?
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chockfull
So, to sum things up..... <sarcasm> There's nothing I'd rather do than go sit through multiple hours of an Animatronics version of Don Knotts teaching Jesus Christ - DOA and send him m
Raf
I am a reporter. I cover criminal trials. I cover a lot of criminal trials. I probably know more about the law regarding crime than you do. However, if you were arrested, and I tried to represent you
krys
MRAP, what is it going to take to get you to roll over for another long winter's nap? Another 3 or 4 months would be good.
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, I usually agree with you on most of your posts. However, IMO, I think Vince F does a great job with "his" people in the Latham, Albany area. Yes, I think many of the off-shoots may be cults; I don't know because I have never been involved with them. But years ago, I used to attend Vince's, and really enjoyed it. I haven't attended his fellowship in over 20 years, so perhaps it has changed since I left. But, I loved being in his fellowship because no one pressured me into doing things, I didn't want to do. Nor did anyone pressure me into giving money that I didn't want to give. I know that Vince has admitted that he made mistakes years ago, but I did too. I think if people want to attend his meetings, fellowships, or advances, that's great. If they don't, they don't. I didn't feel any pressure at all about anything concerning Vince. To this day, I have very fond memories of Vince. Thanks for letting me share.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Raf, great post! I always thought the classes were to keep people coming through the door, so they would cough up their ABS money. I thought the classes were boring as s--t, but I had to have certain ones for the AC. Speaking of which, I thought the AC was the most boring class of them all. A complete waste of my time and money.
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, this is not a snide remark, but it is my opinion. I remember years ago,1979(?) when John and Pat Lynn were the Limb Leaders of New York. I used to love hearing them teach; both of them were great teachers. They were funny, and very sharp people!! I don't know why, or what happened to John, but he changed a great deal. I used to love hearing him teach; now days I don't. At one time, John used to be a true blessing for others; now days he seems to be interested in money more than blessing others.
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Grace Valerie Claire
I agree with you T-Bone!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, if you hear someone laughing, it will be me!!! I love your post!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Neither do I Lani!! Never again in this lifetime!!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Steve, it is always a pleasure to read your posts. I pray that you regain your health. I had no idea he was into quack medicine. I know I had a bout with Cancer 13 years ago, and it wasn't a day at the beach. The DC VA Hospital took very good care of me, otherwise I would not be writing this post. I remember John years ago; he used to be very funny and sharp. What made him change for the worse, is a mystery to me. Now days from what I know about him, which admittedly is not much, he seems to be interested in money. And that's all.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Raf, I didn't know you were a reporter. Perhaps that is why you have such outstanding writing skills. Interesting, to me anyway.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Nuts, I meant to say fantastic!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Steve, I love reading your posts; they always well-written, and make me think. Steve, you pointed out something in your post, that I have never understood. Why do some people relie on "quack medicine?" If Lynn has medical problems, why doesn't he get sound medical advice? I have medical problems, and I get great medical advice, at my local VA Hospital. God expects us to use our brains; when I need a doctor, I go to one. I have never understood why some people go to quacks for medical advice. I know when I was in TWI, VPW had serious medical problems, but he didn't always deal with them. Or is that a question for a Medical Professional?
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