I guess my question MRAP is what do you mean by well constructed?
John S@&oenh#it said he primarily chose the ASV of 1901 as text to develop the REV. One of my concerns is peer review of the REV. What scholars were/are involved? I'm paraphrasing some here, but he said the text was changed where necessary? Who determines what's necessary? If 20-30 scholars are involved like the NRSV or NIV, and others, that's one thing. If it's 1guy who decided he wanted his own translation, that's another thing. Academic credentials do carry some weight IMO when it comes to a project like a new version of scripture.
I only met JAL once or twice so I really have no opinion on the man but am not excited by his current teachings. So JAL is TLF but my major concern is STF since I appreciate and enjoy reading the REV version (redundant) of the Bible. I have asked this question prior and not gotten a good answer about the REV: is it well constructed? I have gotten opinions on folks but none on the validity of the REV itself. Hey, I realize that any past affiliation with TWI will paint a target on a back but dang, I want opinion on the stuff in the REV - Yes, I have gotten some hyperbole about the folks involved in it but NEVER received anything regarding the REV itself.
Hey, past TWI involvement does not make a person bad, otherwise, we are all bad.
Perhaps it would be appropriate and better address your concerns if you would start a thread in the doctrinal forum - and focus on specific passages of the REV Bible.
But I will say a few words about STF’s translation – and I don’t mean to step on your toes or anyone else’s who enjoy the REV Bible; just understand I am very suspicious of anything that has its roots in vpw; I know JAL has likened splitting from TWI and holding on to vpw’s doctrine to the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt and escaping with all their gold.
I don’t intend to get into a whole lot of detail on this thread about why I think anything from the mind of vpw is suspect – suffice it to say that he displayed a proclivity to distort scripture very early on in the PFAL material and class when expounding on II Peter 1: 20, 21 - he stated that it meant the word interprets itself and no one should dare to make a private interpretation:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost…. II Peter 1:20, 21 KJV
Not long after I left TWI this was one of the first screwy vpw interpretations I noticed. By simply reading it without the PFAL mind-filter engaged – I realized the passages were not prohibiting an attempt to interpret the scriptures – but merely stating the source of the scriptures – no prophecy of the scripture is OF any private interpretation – the of being genitive of origin – in other words, the scriptures did not originate from anyone’s own interpretation - but rather - as stated in the next verse it originated from the Holy Spirit inspiring men of God.
And vpw’s idea of the word “interpreting itself” is often him twisting scripture to formulate his own idea of what a particular passage means – and somehow that becomes THE only legitimate interpretation possible; and if you track the “development” of doctrine in TWI which is supposedly a research ministry – you’ll notice no one has ever contradicted or revised anything taught in PFAL – teachings by others use PFAL as a springboard or merely reinforce PFAL which is set in stone - since it is assumed by followers to be “the word”.
I think this self-assuming authority – this elitist attitude of vpw is evident on STF’s REV web page –
… Our goal is to eventually have an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today’s English.
We think we can do that because we believe a person has to understand the meaning of the text correctly to be able to translate it correctly. Furthermore, one’s theology always affects the way that person will translate the text. It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology.
Personally – I don’t trust JAL or anyone who contributes to the REV translation. I believe folks need to take another look at “the gold” they took when they left TWI; granted, it may be shiny and look like gold in their minds; but that makes me think of fool’s gold - you know a lot of folks have been tricked by a brassy yellow mineral like pyrite - mistaking it for gold.
MRAP, I think I understand what you are saying “past TWI involvement does not make a person bad, otherwise, we are all bad.” I’m not fond of using such broad painting strokes when discussing issues with TWI. And believe it or not I tend to give people the benefit of a doubt…
if I may be permitted to adopt your statement into something that I think respects the individuality and conscience of folks: TWI is saturated with toxic doctrine and practices; it takes a brave individual to think outside the TWI mindset and see the subversive nature of their doctrine and practices which tend to undermine intellectual honesty and one’s inner sense of what is right and wrong. I can respect whether that person then chooses to leave TWI or stay and try to reform it.
If they stay in with the intent to reform - I cannot fault them if they are being intellectually honest and following their conscience; personally I think they’ll be fighting a losing battle – like I said TWI is saturated with toxic doctrine and practices….Perhaps some folks look at their years of involvement and don’t want to throw away all they’ve invested…I can understand that – I tend to think along the lines of cut your losses – abandon a course of action that is clearly going to be unsuccessful before I suffer more loss or harm.
On 10/7/2016 at 9:56 PM, JayDee said:
I guess my question MRAP is what do you mean by well constructed?
John S@&oenh#it said he primarily chose the ASV of 1901 as text to develop the REV. One of my concerns is peer review of the REV. What scholars were/are involved? I'm paraphrasing some here, but he said the text was changed where necessary? Who determines what's necessary? If 20-30 scholars are involved like the NRSV or NIV, and others, that's one thing. If it's 1guy who decided he wanted his own translation, that's another thing. Academic credentials do carry some weight IMO when it comes to a project like a new version of scripture.
Great post JayDee ! I agree with your sentiment; genuine biblical scholars usually have some intellectual honesty – especially when compared to the self-assuming types at TWI and offshoots.
T-Bone had a good response, basically, if I had a question about the REV, then post it on the doctrinal forum, which I have done. My question here was about the REV in general (thought there might be some new folks outside the ol'e guard). Still, the attack is against those involved with the REV and not the stuff in the REV itself; in essence, in my ignorant sort of logic I would interpret that as meaning the ol'e guard here has not found anything incorrect in the REV or never took the time to read it. Hey, I'm O.K. with all that, to include the insults: does not take much to touch a nerve around this place.
T-Bone had a good response, basically, if I had a question about the REV, then post it on the doctrinal forum, which I have done. My question here was about the REV in general (thought there might be some new folks outside the ol'e guard). Still, the attack is against those involved with the REV and not the stuff in the REV itself; in essence, in my ignorant sort of logic I would interpret that as meaning the ol'e guard here has not found anything incorrect in the REV or never took the time to read it. Hey, I'm O.K. with all that, to include the insults: does not take much to touch a nerve around this place.
Hey MRAP,
I’m glad you said something about that…seems like I’m always late to the party…anyway…I rarely look in doctrinal but after seeing your post I checked it out and sure enough you started a thread waaaaaaaay back in March of 2015! Even though the party may be over I posted something there anyway being the blather-puss that I am.
I think the last thing I posted in the doctrinal forum, regarding something I questioned in the REV, was about the prophecy of Caiaphas regarding the need to kill Jesus..
I expect that this is a good time to exit this forum topic but would like to say to any new folks on the GSC that we often have quite heated discussions and that is something you would never be allowed to do in The Way - rank always was the last word in the matter - not the case here.
I haven't been on Greasespot in... what has it been... about two years? The other day, I became curious about what TLTF and STFI have been up to. After going to their websites and finding nothing but the expected boilerplate yada yada, I came here to this thread. Needless to say, DWBH never disappoints!
Between 2003 and 2008 I taught Humane Letters at a classical academy, and from 2011 until 2016 I was doing post grad work in theological studies. I originally went into the post grad work to get formal accreditation to teach and to pick up Greek as a subject I could teach at a classical academy. So... even though I will not be able to complete my masters due to health problems... I have taught professionally, and I have studied under actual professors! My scholarship has been informally recognized as sound by professional scholars.
The CES boys, for all the writing and "classes" they churn out, are nothing but rank amateurs who lack genuine self-awareness. The reason they don't dialogue with others in the field of theology is because, if they did, their own ignorance would be shown for what it is, and they would have nothing... and I mean NOTHING AT ALL... left.
The whole idea of a recorded "class" such as PFAL or its legion of knock-offs is bogus. A "class" in which the students can ask no questions is not a real class. During a class the instructor uses the students' questions as feedback to gauge how well she or he is communicating. I have taken several classes for credit that were recorded, and I always had to keep a log of questions to be reviewed by the professor who was overseeing my work, as well as to write a final paper.
I have had to take two semesters over again because hospitalizations interrupted my work. I have had the same classes taught by the same professors, and I can say for a surety that no two classes are ever identical. The understanding of an actual teacher grows, and that growth is reflected in how the class is taught. The lack of ability to reflect growth is one of the huge drawbacks to recorded classes.
I used to know John Lynn as well as any of his thousands of "closest friends" did. I liked his public persona and relied on his leadership after The Way International went to pieces. After Momentus, he lost whatever shreds of humility he had left. Theologically, he is stuck in a dead end rut. He is not serving Jesus or the Word of God. He is serving his own arrogance. I am sorry to hear of his physical problems, having a few of my own, but it astonishes me that he relies on quack medicine as much as he does on quack theology.
I've got some comments on the REV, MRAP, but I'll post those on your doctrinal thread!
Nice seeing you again Steve! So sorry about your physical ailments. I am glad you have continued your education in spite of the medical challenges.
Your posts concerning the scriptural farce called STFI, TLTF, and their prepubescent REV are always filled with excellent Biblical information documenting their blatant incompetence at "translating" and at the same time "not privately interpreting"(sic!) the Bible. Schoenheit has been at this for a long time now. All lynn does is nod his head and take what he wants for his idiotic Bible road shows and ridiculously hyperbolized "classes", which are simply piffle do-overs! Latest example is their JC:DOA comedy sketch. Filled with ego, arrogance, and error upon error along with the requisite plagiarism of every pfal redux.
MRAP has been whining about "not getting any answers" to his redundant and annoying REV posts since 3/15/15. He has a hard time listening to all the answers he's gotten over the last 2 years. Still asking the same banal questions as if there is ANY value of ANY kind to the REV. He may need a remedial reading program or something, I don't know, but his reading comprehension seems somewhat "challenged" to me. Good luck down there in Doctrinal!
Thanks for posting Steve! Always good reading you. I pray your health will improve and afford you the opportunity to complete your studies to your satisfaction. I bid you Godspeed and peace.
Wow DWeeBH, I ain't posted in almost 4 months and some how you need to bring up my name, and patronize Steve to inform him of my "whining". What, you need an alley?
As of this writing, I have read Steve's dissertation, quite good and way above my pay grade.
I know you are looking for a confrontation Mr. IVth corp but Iv'e kinda grown outa that stuff.
I have to ask you a question DWBH: who is the most redundant, my asking about the REV or your consistent posts on numerous forums bashing TWI for, well, how many years now? You just keep blasting on TWI with the same stuff. I agree with you DWBH, TWI deserves it but don't say that I am redundant.
Now, for anyone new here to the Grease Spot Cafe, we have fun bantering and as I must admit, I am very thankful for Don't Worry Be Happy as he/she got me back into reading more of the Gospel records as well as the Pauline Epistles, it's a balance, in my reading practices if I must say.
The Grease Spot Cafe is a great place for healing, learning and also good ole locker room BS.
Oops, difference from main stream gsc thought is not welcome, got the message. Funny, I thought I was missed given that DWBH dissed on me even though I had not posted anything for months. Well, love to the sisters and brothers. Yawn, time for that 3 or 4 month nap.
Oops, difference from main stream gsc thought is not welcome, got the message. Funny, I thought I was missed given that DWBH dissed on me even though I had not posted anything for months. Well, love to the sisters and brothers. Yawn, time for that 3 or 4 month nap.
Nice try. Again, it's a matter of the purpose of this website and these forums. Love to you to, sir... and I hope your discussion of the REV in the doctrinal forum is more personally satisfying to you.
On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 1:22 AM, MRAP said:
Still, the attack is against those involved with the REV and not the stuff in the REV itself; in essence, in my ignorant sort of logic I would interpret that as meaning the ol'e guard here has not found anything incorrect in the REV or never took the time to read it.
Plenty of information here about the calibre and credentials those putting together this REV.
You wouldn't necessarily expect the authors of, say, Dick and Jane books to be as proficient in English literature as, say, Shakespeare or perhaps John Steinbeck or Mark Twain. So you would tend to take the D&J authors rather less seriously, if they were to announce D&J or any other like work, as a great work of literature. And if they launched into anything else, some other kind of writing, you'd expect peer review, support from established patrons or authors, etc.
Without looking at REV, I'd be suspicious that it was the equivalent of kids' book authors trying to be literary giants. Just not quite the ring of credibility you'd want. Might be okay as froth, pulp fiction, but credible literature... no.
Surely it's an author's role to convince his readers of his credibility and that its worth the reader's tIme to read - not the readers who have to make excuses or defend the work...?
I am a reporter. I cover criminal trials. I cover a lot of criminal trials. I probably know more about the law regarding crime than you do. However, if you were arrested, and I tried to represent you in court, I could probably go to jail for that. Regardless of the (assumed for the sake of argument) fact that my knowledge of the subject is greater than yours, it does not mean in any way shape or form that I am qualified to practice law.
The developers of the REV have as much business constructing a new translation of the scriptures as I have practicing law.
Commenting on the REV. The major flaw I see in it is its roots. What roots you say? The roots of scholarly modeling what VPW did in his works. What scholarly model you say is this? Why, plagiarism, lack of peer review, lack of source citation, lack of collaboration with educational entities of the day and time, and other such egotistical and isolationist flaws that in our modern world consist of red flags to a genuine scholarly work.
In it's least common denominator it is a commentary. Is it wrong to like a commentary? No, different strokes for different folks. Controversial stories and commentaries on the Bible and Christ have been around for a while. I'm thinking right now of a work, "The Last Temptation of Christ" - a historical novel by Nikos Kazantzakis. The novel, published in 1960, was later the inspiration for an equally controversial movie adaptation in 1988 released by Martin Scorsese. I know that has nothing to do with the topic - consider it added color commentary :)
I know it is difficult to believe. It is perversely surreal. It is utter, meaningless, powerless, narcissistic drivel. Yet.....here we go again! Another PIFFLE redux, the 4th or 5th now, this time screaming and smirking its Dr.Seuss nonsensical trash in the title of jalvis: the diameter of the ages. Oh, excuse me, Jesus Christ: DOA. Yup! You guessed it. Yet more garbage from the tower of Babble in IN, TLTF. More of the "foundational class" which will accomplish remarkably even less than the first one you took from dictor paul. It'll change your life, in every possible non-beneficial, intellectually vapid, spiritually empty and antisocial WAY possible. Just when you thought you were out......their demented, malignant, paranoid narcissism tries to tell you about what you absolutely don't need, in this our day, and time, and hour, and minute, and second.
Jallyroll and Franco have been fighting da Debbil for 5 years making this crap up! It's gonna be yet another most significant event "in all Christendom". They're going through everything but crucifixion for YOU! Heroes for geeezus and gawd. Beaters of Satan and all the billions of daimon, daimonion, and Muslims and Mexicans out there tryin' to possess ya! Teaching you the Adolph Birch Society version of dictor paul's paranoid, self-obsessed, interpretation of Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, and a score of others from whom he has blatantly plagiarized EVERYTHING he ever wrote! Now we have yet another jallyroll version of his interpretation of dictor's interpretation of all the folks dpw stole from. How great for their debbils, huh?.........LOL!
Of course, all world current events are (and have been for years) orchestrated by da Debbil to thwart jally's efforts to promote himself and his POS minustrays as the new Dictor! The Oando murders of 50 people with hundreds wounded was not carried out by any old Islamic terrorist latent homosexual. Nope! It was da Debbil himself trying to distract or imps the most significant "teaching" found nowhere else in Christendom. What about Dallas? Baton Rouge? Minneapolis? That thinking is even more sociopathically narcissistic then Herr Drumpff!
On this thread, I'm going to post excerpts from the last two TLTF newsletters. You decide for yourself how valueless they are. Comments and counterpoints are welcome.
"As you know if you read these monthly communiqués, and perhaps also watch our monthly “WWF” teachings, we plan to film our presentation titled Jesus Christ: The Diameter of the Ages from Monday, July 11 through Sunday, July 17 in Orlando FL. We expect the video to be about 20 hours. Between now and then I am immersing myself in developing the content of this unique production, which we are doing because we know of nothing in Christendom like what we will present. I am also working to rehab myself after last month’s hip replacement surgery, as well as aggressively continuing my naturopathic protocol to destroy the cancer that has been attacking me so that I have sufficient energy to film that many hours of teaching in one week." June, 2016 newsletter opening.
What does WWF mean? Are they monthly teachings of some sort?
More from the first three paragraphs of jally/francs June, 2016 newsletter:
"Our producer, director, and video editor for JCDA is Franco Bottley, who did such a fabulous job five years ago on One Day With The Creator and The End Times. You may know about the physical challenge he has been dealing with for several years, which has severely hampered his ability to sit at the computer and do his graphic arts work. Last month a world-class doc told him that his only option now is a major surgery to fuse three vertebrae in his neck, but he continues to search for other means. Of course, we know that his best option is a miracle healing by the Great Physician, for which we are diligently praying. Franco says he will be able to direct the filming of JCDA, but that in his present condition he cannot do the large amount of post-production editing."
"Franco and I have decided that if we each have breath in us, we will “get the film in the can” next month, and go from there as the Lord opens the doors. If he still needs surgery, he will have it right after the filming, and do the editing after he recuperates. We need your fervent prayer in order to pull off this ambitious endeavor. Our goal is to embrace the heart of our Savior and re-present as much of it as we can in this teaching, to the end that those who experience it will ever more deeply know, love, and serve the magnificent Son of God. In that vein, let’s look at a brief “Christianity 101” overview. Please pass this on to anyone you know who would benefit from it."
Wow! 3 paragraphs so far and The Boss' name doesn't show up until the 2nd to last sentence of the third paragraph. Yup! They have their priorities straight alright. Refuse the best medical advice in order to embarrass gawd further by His failure to deliver you two prayshuss moggies. Oh yeah.....we know it's YOUR fault because you just ain't believin' huh? Whose the center of your meaningless prayers boyz???
Why would they refuse medical advice?? That seems really stupid to me; God expects us to use our common sense. If I need medical advice, I use it. I have never been to Medical or Nursing School, but I know that it would be stupid of me not to use the advice that is given to me by medical personal. I never understood why TWI didn't have medical personal on call for when people got sick.
"BUT, God’s prototype man basically spit in his Creator’s face, not only breaking His heart, but also transferring his God-given dominion over the earth to God’s arch-enemy. That one act set in motion an absolute horror show that continues to this very day, as Satan uses wicked spirits and wicked people to exert the dominant influence on earth and ravage humanity moment by moment (1 John 5:19). Adam’s disobedience also activated God’s Plan B (or “J”), another Adam. Despite fallacious Trinitarian rhetoric to the contrary (“God had to become a man in order to save mankind”), The Man was the only solution to the problem of sin and death brought on by a Man. Because the first human caused the problem, only another human could legally solve it and satisfy God’s requirements for justice (Rom. 5:12-21)."
This is 5 paragraphs into the 15 or 16 verbose paragraphs jally refers to as "Christianity 101". It is a lengthy l, Aesop's Fables/Grimms Fairy Tales
version into the demented childlike fantasies jally believes the Bible "teaches". Very condescending to even the average 6th grade intellect.
In a later paragraph in his fairytale, jally states the following: "God made Jesus genetically flawless". Continuing the myth that only male sperm contains the genetic codes used in the formation of the human bloodstream according to dpw's great knowledge of human genetics. I use this example to highlight the fact that there are scores of assumptions, presumptions, "definitions", and plagiarized commentaries which jally, in the footsteps of his faddah-in-da-woid, simply rewrites with absolutely no references or credit to the authors and sources he plagiarizes. "This really means this, and that actually says that just because I say so."
Examples?
1)"Satan uses wicked spirits and wicked people to exert the dominant influence on earth and ravage humanity moment by moment."
Oh really??? Says who? Oh yeah, dpw's interpretation of B.G.'s private interpretation of the "Holy Spirit field". LOL! So, a "minus-tray" which supposedly exists to glorify God and geeezus by "rightly dividing" the Bible MSS and texts, boldly declares that SATAN IS AND HAS BEEN THE DOMINANT INFLUENCE ON THE PLANET EARTH SINCE GENESIS 3:15!!! How glorious, eh??? Ravaging mankind moment by moment since shortly after its inception by jally's huuuge but limited-by-our-free will thoughts and beliefs to doing only what we demand he do? Does this jerk ever read what he writes??? He says this all "continues to this day"! You're still preaching dictor's "advanced class" which was blatantly stolen word for word from B.G. Leonard??! You still believe this tripe? You have people pay you to produce these fairytales so you and francough can put your narcissism on DVD?? P.T. Barnum sure was correct.
2) "God made Jesus Christ genetically flawless so he could have the perfect blood needed to undo da debbil's victory over Adam, and blah blah blah, yada yada yada, doowop ramma lamma dingdong........" Again more tripe trash from the moggie dictor based on his complete ignorance of human genetics and gestation. I refer you to the current PBS series, "The 9 Months That Made You". That proves scientifically, and visually that that whole perfect sperm thing is totally false. Half of JC's genetic makeup came from Mary. That applies to EVERY PART OF HIS PHYSICAL BODY, including His blood. Puhleeze TLTF. Stop the .... and blatant falsehoods and lies. At least graduate from your elementary school fairytale fantasies invoking gawd and Jesus. Aren't there Debbil spurts that do all that???
Wow DWBH, I never realized that JC didn't have perfect blood. What was I thinking??? Of course, he didn't, he was born of Mary. I never thought about that before. The things I learn from the GSC are fantastically!!
Reading through this thread, and a couple of observations:
At first, you guys were doing fine, arguing positions over personalities. That includes DWBH. TLC went after DWBH's positions, Twinky posted observations, DWBH challenged them to think through the consequences of their positions. WW weighed in substantively as well.
Things start to go south with post #18. TLC went after DWBH, not his position.
Post 19: DWBH responds in kind.
BOTH are out of line.
Post 20: I disagree with WW. I don't think DWBH "went after" Twinky. I think he challenged her position by carrying his interpretation of her position to its next logical steps (post 17). DWBH called her no names (I'm assuming Twinky is a her. Correct me if I'm mistaken). I can understand WW's concern about the tone of DWBH's posts, but on this one, I think he's misguided.
Post 21: DWBH responds in kind to WW.
20 and 21 are honest reflections of how the posters feel and don't cross any lines, but neither was necessary to the subject being discussed. We're going off topic.
Post 22: WW takes issue with DWBH using the words "waybrained pontificators." Reading the quote in context, I think DWBH may have been a bit harsh in his word choice, but it does go back to his post 17 and challenges the substance of TLC's and Twinky's comments. Borderline at best, and in context, he's talking (post 21) about the difference between "impartiality" and "bending over backwards" (ie, declining to address the consequences of what someone says). Again, I would have used different words, but that's me.
I think WW tried to be reasonable here, but again, I think he overstates DWBH's position when he accuses him of "going after" Twinky. He went after a position she stated.
23: I agree with the beginning of what DWBH says here, but no, I don't think WW needs an emotional timeout. I might, after this post. :)
24: Twinky, you lost me. You quoted TLC and directed a post at DWBH. Did you realize that?
25: Sort of agree with Twinky. However, the comments DWBH made were specifically related to what TLTF is teaching, so I would leave it be. Yes, the content quoted is appropriate for doctrinal. But it is not necessarily inappropriate here, as long as we're still relating it back to TLTF.
Twinky made none of this personal, for which I am grateful. You other guys, check yourselves. I don't see a huge issue with what anyone posted, but you're straying off topic.
Please would someone tell me what TLTF is? Is that a John Lynn thing? Also, DWBH please forgive me; I couldn't remember if you were a man or woman. Thank you Modcat 5 for clearing that up for me! Also, all of these posts were very educational, and interesting to me. I love coming to the GSC because there is so much I learn it!! Good job everyone!!!
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So, to sum things up..... <sarcasm> There's nothing I'd rather do than go sit through multiple hours of an Animatronics version of Don Knotts teaching Jesus Christ - DOA and send him m
Raf
I am a reporter. I cover criminal trials. I cover a lot of criminal trials. I probably know more about the law regarding crime than you do. However, if you were arrested, and I tried to represent you
krys
MRAP, what is it going to take to get you to roll over for another long winter's nap? Another 3 or 4 months would be good.
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waysider
Excellent post.
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JayDee
Thanks for reading and commenting waysider.
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MRAP
O.K., back to the issue of the REV itself.
What part of it does anyone find wrongly presented/translated/interpreted, etc.
I used the word "constructed" as an overall coverage of the above items in the sentence.
Still, to this date, I have not read any rebutal to the actual stuff in the REV.
Hey, I ain't defending the REV, I am seeking a conversation on any parts of it that are - debatable.
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T-Bone
Perhaps it would be appropriate and better address your concerns if you would start a thread in the doctrinal forum - and focus on specific passages of the REV Bible.
But I will say a few words about STF’s translation – and I don’t mean to step on your toes or anyone else’s who enjoy the REV Bible; just understand I am very suspicious of anything that has its roots in vpw; I know JAL has likened splitting from TWI and holding on to vpw’s doctrine to the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt and escaping with all their gold.
I don’t intend to get into a whole lot of detail on this thread about why I think anything from the mind of vpw is suspect – suffice it to say that he displayed a proclivity to distort scripture very early on in the PFAL material and class when expounding on II Peter 1: 20, 21 - he stated that it meant the word interprets itself and no one should dare to make a private interpretation:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost…. II Peter 1:20, 21 KJV
Not long after I left TWI this was one of the first screwy vpw interpretations I noticed. By simply reading it without the PFAL mind-filter engaged – I realized the passages were not prohibiting an attempt to interpret the scriptures – but merely stating the source of the scriptures – no prophecy of the scripture is OF any private interpretation – the of being genitive of origin – in other words, the scriptures did not originate from anyone’s own interpretation - but rather - as stated in the next verse it originated from the Holy Spirit inspiring men of God.
And vpw’s idea of the word “interpreting itself” is often him twisting scripture to formulate his own idea of what a particular passage means – and somehow that becomes THE only legitimate interpretation possible; and if you track the “development” of doctrine in TWI which is supposedly a research ministry – you’ll notice no one has ever contradicted or revised anything taught in PFAL – teachings by others use PFAL as a springboard or merely reinforce PFAL which is set in stone - since it is assumed by followers to be “the word”.
I think this self-assuming authority – this elitist attitude of vpw is evident on STF’s REV web page –
… Our goal is to eventually have an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today’s English.
We think we can do that because we believe a person has to understand the meaning of the text correctly to be able to translate it correctly. Furthermore, one’s theology always affects the way that person will translate the text. It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology.
link to STF REV translation web page
Personally – I don’t trust JAL or anyone who contributes to the REV translation. I believe folks need to take another look at “the gold” they took when they left TWI; granted, it may be shiny and look like gold in their minds; but that makes me think of fool’s gold - you know a lot of folks have been tricked by a brassy yellow mineral like pyrite - mistaking it for gold.
MRAP, I think I understand what you are saying “past TWI involvement does not make a person bad, otherwise, we are all bad.” I’m not fond of using such broad painting strokes when discussing issues with TWI. And believe it or not I tend to give people the benefit of a doubt…
if I may be permitted to adopt your statement into something that I think respects the individuality and conscience of folks: TWI is saturated with toxic doctrine and practices; it takes a brave individual to think outside the TWI mindset and see the subversive nature of their doctrine and practices which tend to undermine intellectual honesty and one’s inner sense of what is right and wrong. I can respect whether that person then chooses to leave TWI or stay and try to reform it.
If they stay in with the intent to reform - I cannot fault them if they are being intellectually honest and following their conscience; personally I think they’ll be fighting a losing battle – like I said TWI is saturated with toxic doctrine and practices….Perhaps some folks look at their years of involvement and don’t want to throw away all they’ve invested…I can understand that – I tend to think along the lines of cut your losses – abandon a course of action that is clearly going to be unsuccessful before I suffer more loss or harm.
Great post JayDee ! I agree with your sentiment; genuine biblical scholars usually have some intellectual honesty – especially when compared to the self-assuming types at TWI and offshoots.
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JayDee
Thanks very much T-Bone.
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JayDee
Thanks DWBH.
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MRAP
T-Bone had a good response, basically, if I had a question about the REV, then post it on the doctrinal forum, which I have done. My question here was about the REV in general (thought there might be some new folks outside the ol'e guard). Still, the attack is against those involved with the REV and not the stuff in the REV itself; in essence, in my ignorant sort of logic I would interpret that as meaning the ol'e guard here has not found anything incorrect in the REV or never took the time to read it. Hey, I'm O.K. with all that, to include the insults: does not take much to touch a nerve around this place.
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T-Bone
Hey MRAP,
I’m glad you said something about that…seems like I’m always late to the party…anyway…I rarely look in doctrinal but after seeing your post I checked it out and sure enough you started a thread waaaaaaaay back in March of 2015! Even though the party may be over I posted something there anyway being the blather-puss that I am.
Love and peace
T-Bone
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MRAP
I think the last thing I posted in the doctrinal forum, regarding something I questioned in the REV, was about the prophecy of Caiaphas regarding the need to kill Jesus..
I expect that this is a good time to exit this forum topic but would like to say to any new folks on the GSC that we often have quite heated discussions and that is something you would never be allowed to do in The Way - rank always was the last word in the matter - not the case here.
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Steve Lortz
I haven't been on Greasespot in... what has it been... about two years? The other day, I became curious about what TLTF and STFI have been up to. After going to their websites and finding nothing but the expected boilerplate yada yada, I came here to this thread. Needless to say, DWBH never disappoints!
Between 2003 and 2008 I taught Humane Letters at a classical academy, and from 2011 until 2016 I was doing post grad work in theological studies. I originally went into the post grad work to get formal accreditation to teach and to pick up Greek as a subject I could teach at a classical academy. So... even though I will not be able to complete my masters due to health problems... I have taught professionally, and I have studied under actual professors! My scholarship has been informally recognized as sound by professional scholars.
The CES boys, for all the writing and "classes" they churn out, are nothing but rank amateurs who lack genuine self-awareness. The reason they don't dialogue with others in the field of theology is because, if they did, their own ignorance would be shown for what it is, and they would have nothing... and I mean NOTHING AT ALL... left.
The whole idea of a recorded "class" such as PFAL or its legion of knock-offs is bogus. A "class" in which the students can ask no questions is not a real class. During a class the instructor uses the students' questions as feedback to gauge how well she or he is communicating. I have taken several classes for credit that were recorded, and I always had to keep a log of questions to be reviewed by the professor who was overseeing my work, as well as to write a final paper.
I have had to take two semesters over again because hospitalizations interrupted my work. I have had the same classes taught by the same professors, and I can say for a surety that no two classes are ever identical. The understanding of an actual teacher grows, and that growth is reflected in how the class is taught. The lack of ability to reflect growth is one of the huge drawbacks to recorded classes.
I used to know John Lynn as well as any of his thousands of "closest friends" did. I liked his public persona and relied on his leadership after The Way International went to pieces. After Momentus, he lost whatever shreds of humility he had left. Theologically, he is stuck in a dead end rut. He is not serving Jesus or the Word of God. He is serving his own arrogance. I am sorry to hear of his physical problems, having a few of my own, but it astonishes me that he relies on quack medicine as much as he does on quack theology.
I've got some comments on the REV, MRAP, but I'll post those on your doctrinal thread!
Love,
Steve
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DontWorryBeHappy
Nice seeing you again Steve! So sorry about your physical ailments. I am glad you have continued your education in spite of the medical challenges.
Your posts concerning the scriptural farce called STFI, TLTF, and their prepubescent REV are always filled with excellent Biblical information documenting their blatant incompetence at "translating" and at the same time "not privately interpreting"(sic!) the Bible. Schoenheit has been at this for a long time now. All lynn does is nod his head and take what he wants for his idiotic Bible road shows and ridiculously hyperbolized "classes", which are simply piffle do-overs! Latest example is their JC:DOA comedy sketch. Filled with ego, arrogance, and error upon error along with the requisite plagiarism of every pfal redux.
MRAP has been whining about "not getting any answers" to his redundant and annoying REV posts since 3/15/15. He has a hard time listening to all the answers he's gotten over the last 2 years. Still asking the same banal questions as if there is ANY value of ANY kind to the REV. He may need a remedial reading program or something, I don't know, but his reading comprehension seems somewhat "challenged" to me. Good luck down there in Doctrinal!
Thanks for posting Steve! Always good reading you. I pray your health will improve and afford you the opportunity to complete your studies to your satisfaction. I bid you Godspeed and peace.
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MRAP
Wow DWeeBH, I ain't posted in almost 4 months and some how you need to bring up my name, and patronize Steve to inform him of my "whining". What, you need an alley?
As of this writing, I have read Steve's dissertation, quite good and way above my pay grade.
I know you are looking for a confrontation Mr. IVth corp but Iv'e kinda grown outa that stuff.
I have to ask you a question DWBH: who is the most redundant, my asking about the REV or your consistent posts on numerous forums bashing TWI for, well, how many years now? You just keep blasting on TWI with the same stuff. I agree with you DWBH, TWI deserves it but don't say that I am redundant.
Now, for anyone new here to the Grease Spot Cafe, we have fun bantering and as I must admit, I am very thankful for Don't Worry Be Happy as he/she got me back into reading more of the Gospel records as well as the Pauline Epistles, it's a balance, in my reading practices if I must say.
The Grease Spot Cafe is a great place for healing, learning and also good ole locker room BS.
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krys
MRAP, what is it going to take to get you to roll over for another long winter's nap? Another 3 or 4 months would be good.
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MRAP
Oops, difference from main stream gsc thought is not welcome, got the message. Funny, I thought I was missed given that DWBH dissed on me even though I had not posted anything for months. Well, love to the sisters and brothers. Yawn, time for that 3 or 4 month nap.
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Rocky
Nice try. Again, it's a matter of the purpose of this website and these forums. Love to you to, sir... and I hope your discussion of the REV in the doctrinal forum is more personally satisfying to you.
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Twinky
Plenty of information here about the calibre and credentials those putting together this REV.
You wouldn't necessarily expect the authors of, say, Dick and Jane books to be as proficient in English literature as, say, Shakespeare or perhaps John Steinbeck or Mark Twain. So you would tend to take the D&J authors rather less seriously, if they were to announce D&J or any other like work, as a great work of literature. And if they launched into anything else, some other kind of writing, you'd expect peer review, support from established patrons or authors, etc.
Without looking at REV, I'd be suspicious that it was the equivalent of kids' book authors trying to be literary giants. Just not quite the ring of credibility you'd want. Might be okay as froth, pulp fiction, but credible literature... no.
Surely it's an author's role to convince his readers of his credibility and that its worth the reader's tIme to read - not the readers who have to make excuses or defend the work...?
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Raf
I am a reporter. I cover criminal trials. I cover a lot of criminal trials. I probably know more about the law regarding crime than you do. However, if you were arrested, and I tried to represent you in court, I could probably go to jail for that. Regardless of the (assumed for the sake of argument) fact that my knowledge of the subject is greater than yours, it does not mean in any way shape or form that I am qualified to practice law.
The developers of the REV have as much business constructing a new translation of the scriptures as I have practicing law.
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chockfull
Commenting on the REV. The major flaw I see in it is its roots. What roots you say? The roots of scholarly modeling what VPW did in his works. What scholarly model you say is this? Why, plagiarism, lack of peer review, lack of source citation, lack of collaboration with educational entities of the day and time, and other such egotistical and isolationist flaws that in our modern world consist of red flags to a genuine scholarly work.
In it's least common denominator it is a commentary. Is it wrong to like a commentary? No, different strokes for different folks. Controversial stories and commentaries on the Bible and Christ have been around for a while. I'm thinking right now of a work, "The Last Temptation of Christ" - a historical novel by Nikos Kazantzakis. The novel, published in 1960, was later the inspiration for an equally controversial movie adaptation in 1988 released by Martin Scorsese. I know that has nothing to do with the topic - consider it added color commentary :)
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Grace Valerie Claire
And the Bulls--t also!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
What does WWF mean? Are they monthly teachings of some sort?
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Grace Valerie Claire
Why would they refuse medical advice?? That seems really stupid to me; God expects us to use our common sense. If I need medical advice, I use it. I have never been to Medical or Nursing School, but I know that it would be stupid of me not to use the advice that is given to me by medical personal. I never understood why TWI didn't have medical personal on call for when people got sick.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Wow DWBH, I never realized that JC didn't have perfect blood. What was I thinking??? Of course, he didn't, he was born of Mary. I never thought about that before. The things I learn from the GSC are fantastically!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bulls--t!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Please would someone tell me what TLTF is? Is that a John Lynn thing? Also, DWBH please forgive me; I couldn't remember if you were a man or woman. Thank you Modcat 5 for clearing that up for me! Also, all of these posts were very educational, and interesting to me. I love coming to the GSC because there is so much I learn it!! Good job everyone!!!
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