BlueCord: we all have different journeys. Most people on this board are still Christian or spiritual in one way or another. I myself am not. Nobody is going to brainwash you into anything here because we can't even agree with each other long enough to decide what to brainwash you into. You'd end up being an atheist-trinitarian-fundamentalist-evangelical-wiccan-dispensationalist-covenant-theologian who believes the Bible contains no contradictions or errors except for the errors and contradictions it contains. You may end up thinking Wierwille was anything from the second coming of the apostle Paul to a traveling salesman who always believes in the band, kid. To a rapist.
You will be respected, but as you work out to sort truth from error, angry hyperbole from history, reality form/with spirituality, be assured that some of us will agree with you, some will not, and in the end we will always be happy to see you. Even when we're not.
With all the great suggestions given here - one of the most significant, in my view, was Rocky's about taking care of your relationship with your wife. When you're out, you'll need each other. Even if it means you have to stay a bit longer than you want....if she's not coming along willingly, that would set you guys up for separation and eventual divorce.
With all the great suggestions given here - one of the most significant, in my view, was Rocky's about taking care of your relationship with your wife. When you're out, you'll need each other. Even if it means you have to stay a bit longer than you want....if she's not coming along willingly, that would set you guys up for separation and eventual divorce.
Yes, THIS!
twi's been big fans of using one spouse against the other,
and making the "faithful" spouse feel bad if the other was less-than-perfect
or less-than-perfectly-loyal.
Got an alcoholic spouse? You're failing to walk the walk!
Got a spouse that wants out? You're failing to magically believe enough!
My wife is on board with leaving. When I said she thinks y'all are going to brainwash me, she means that she thinks you're all bitter and angry towards the Way. She hasn't yet grasped that a community of people who were done wrong by an organization can legitimately be trying to help others out of a similar situation without any animosity bleeding through. And I agree with the statement that our relationship is super important to focus on. If she were still happy in the Way I wouldn't have come to this conclusion of leaving. But, we are both unhappy. We don't have anything positive to say about our most recent experiences with the ministry. Every time I bring up this site or the book, her response is the same to "be careful. You don't know those people". So, I've just quit talking about what we're talking about on the site.
Again, I'd like to reiterate that she's on board with leaving. Especially in light of some of the more recent news coming from HQ with the directors being focused more on money than people, she's ready to go. I'm on my phone right now, so I can't go into detail, but basically people are getting fired simply for disagreeing with her.
Hi BlueCord. Welcome to the Greasespot!......Best site on the web for accurate, proven, and even publicly adjudicated FACTS on TWIt and all its pathological "trustees", from dictor paul to Rosie the riveter. Malignant paranoid narcissists, serial rapists and sexual predators, drunks, neo-Nazis and pathological liars.
You have yet to come to grips with the fact that TWIt and EVERYTHING you and your wife have ever heard or "learned" from TWIt is false teaching and ALL of it is anti(against)-Christ. Jesus Christ has absolutely no place as the active Lord and Intercessor in ANY TWIt doctrine. There is no room for Christ in TWIt. They're all to busy trying to take the place of the absent Christ......and, He is indeed ABSENT from TWIt......with their private interpretation of their "Word"......plagiarized at its best from Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, et al. You and your wife have been trained to allow TWIt doctrine to usurp your true identity in Christ. Heck!....you're not even allowed to pray to or have fellowship with the Author and Finisher of the faith which bears His name! Also, you have conditioned yourselves to trust no one outside TWIt's mogs and moggettes. They fear the Devil and his minions than they love the Boss, Jesus Christ. They are more consumed with their meaningless and fruitless "spiritual warfare against The Adversary" and all his constant attacks and conspiracies against them, than they are in a loving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
You have allowed yourselves to distrust everything, everyone, all the time.....especially those who question TWIt and their anti-Christ doctrine. They're all of the da Debbil or controlled by debbil spurts. You're either totally with them or you're with da debbil. Those Greasespotters are all bitter, angry, crazy or possessed. They're full of hate and vain babble. They're off da woid! Yeah well, welcome to REALITY! Hang in here for a while BlueCord. I think you'll feel at home quite soon. Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, not the anti-Christ poison of TWIt. The Truth will make you free!..................peace.
Hi BlueCord. Welcome to the Greasespot!......Best site on the web for accurate, proven, and even publicly adjudicated FACTS on TWIt and all its pathological "trustees", from dictor paul to Rosie the riveter. Malignant paranoid narcissists, serial rapists and sexual predators, drunks, neo-Nazis and pathological liars.
You have yet to come to grips with the fact that TWIt and EVERYTHING you and your wife have ever heard or "learned" from TWIt is false teaching and ALL of it is anti(against)-Christ. Jesus Christ has absolutely no place as the active Lord and Intercessor in ANY TWIt doctrine. There is no room for Christ in TWIt. They're all to busy trying to take the place of the absent Christ......and, He is indeed ABSENT from TWIt......with their private interpretation of their "Word"......plagiarized at its best from Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, et al. You and your wife have been trained to allow TWIt doctrine to usurp your true identity in Christ. Heck!....you're not even allowed to pray to or have fellowship with the Author and Finisher of the faith which bears His name! Also, you have conditioned yourselves to trust no one outside TWIt's mogs and moggettes. They fear the Devil and his minions than they love the Boss, Jesus Christ. They are more consumed with their meaningless and fruitless "spiritual warfare against The Adversary" and all his constant attacks and conspiracies against them, than they are in a loving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
You have allowed yourselves to distrust everything, everyone, all the time.....especially those who question TWIt and their anti-Christ doctrine. They're all of the da Debbil or controlled by debbil spurts. You're either totally with them or you're with da debbil. Those Greasespotters are all bitter, angry, crazy or possessed. They're full of hate and vain babble. They're off da woid! Yeah well, welcome to REALITY! Hang in here for a while BlueCord. I think you'll feel at home quite soon. Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, not the anti-Christ poison of TWIt. The Truth will make you free!..................peace.
This is so accurate. I was talking to a guy last night who was dropped from the corp and/or in residence training and I was explaining to him how I'm reading Karl's book. One of the things that I mentioned was that I hadn't even been born by the time VPW died. I didn't get into the Way until a decade after Martindale. So, all I've heard about VPW is what TWI wants you to hear. I start reading Karl's book and the parts about VPW have me absolutely horrified. Then I start thinking kind of like TWI has brainwashed us to think. "I wasn't there. I didn't see it. Maybe it's all made up." But when I was talking to this guy last night he and I came to the same conclusion. "Where there's smoke, there's fire." And there's a whole hell of a lot of smoke if even half of what Karl wrote is true. So, I believe this guy was the scum of the Earth. It's just left me kind of in shock, though. I'm certain I'll fit in just fine. I already like talking with y'all. I like that you already understand the lingo, you've been there, worked through the same stuff I'm working through and you're telling me it's normal. It's like "there's a light at the end of the tunnel" kind of scenario, and it's refreshing.
My wife is on board with leaving. When I said she thinks y'all are going to brainwash me, she means that she thinks you're all bitter and angry towards the Way. She hasn't yet grasped that a community of people who were done wrong by an organization can legitimately be trying to help others out of a similar situation without any animosity bleeding through. And I agree with the statement that our relationship is super important to focus on. If she were still happy in the Way I wouldn't have come to this conclusion of leaving. But, we are both unhappy. We don't have anything positive to say about our most recent experiences with the ministry. Every time I bring up this site or the book, her response is the same to "be careful. You don't know those people". So, I've just quit talking about what we're talking about on the site.
Again, I'd like to reiterate that she's on board with leaving. Especially in light of some of the more recent news coming from HQ with the directors being focused more on money than people, she's ready to go. I'm on my phone right now, so I can't go into detail, but basically people are getting fired simply for disagreeing with her.
Hi Blue Cord, I've marked in bold red your comments I'd like to say something about:
Your wife is right in thinking that way….i think most folks when they first leave TWI are bitter and angry – and usually have more than that going on at the time. I think you'll find many folks at Grease Spot have mellowed out with the passage of time and in working things out – that's some of the mental baggage I talked about in my previous post.
Btw – there's nothing wrong with being angry – sometimes it does take a "righteous" anger to spur someone on to speak up and right a wrong (think about Mark 3:5, Jesus' anger over the hardness of hearts and Matthew 21 where Jesus drove out those buying and selling, overturned tables, etc. to cleanse the Temple – I don't think his demeanor was happy and laid back).
Anyway – like I said in my other post - open and honest communication between you and your wife is essential; matter of fact, my wife Tonto was into Grease Spot and its other "incarnations" long before I joined – and she got me interested in Grease Spot finally with things she would share because I plum run out of ideas on how to figure out the crazy-town-mess known as TWI....besides…. I think TWI was a man's world in many ways - I think a lot of guys/husbands felt superior to women, would snub them rather than consider their viewpoint on something.
So when your wife says something like "be careful. You don't know those people" that's good advice. You "know" us only thru cyberspace. However, i want to offer another bit of advice to run in tandem while you're working things out - modifying what she said and pointing it back at TWI. Be careful – you really don't know the extent of the damage TWI has caused…I don't think anyone ever will.
BlueCord, I wish you and your wife well on your journey out of TWI. God bless and prosper you both.
At the Cafe, we're individuals with individual points of view. We are not TWI clones, all saying the same thing. Unless you are a VPW apologist (which you're not) your point of view is as valid as everyone else's. You can also expect your PoV to change over time.
VPW was dead before I got involved; I suffered under Pontius Martindale. :mad2:/>
For myself, when I first stumbled across this site, I was horrified, really horrified, at the things people were saying against this great ministry, TWI. How could people say such things? I was appalled at a number of levels. And yet... and yet... the stories people told had a strange coherency with my own experience. A strange ring of truth that was most disconcerting. As I continued to read here, I found that a lot of my suppressed concerns about TWI were voiced and the truth behind those concerns was articulated. I read with fascinated horror.
This site is one of the places that set me free from TWI lies.
Now, I enjoy exploring life with God and finding new ways to help and serve other people. Genuinely. No element of fear, or ostracism for non-compliance. I appreciate the wisdom of mature Christians from other strands of Christianity - and getting along with them without feeling I need to defend my PoV or be browbeaten by their PoV. Indeed, this very evening I've had a most interesting conversation with a deeply committed Trinitarian Christian and we can respect each others views of who Jesus Christ is (and how he came to be) and his gifts to us, and still learn from each other.
You and your wife please just put your confidence in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ to guide you through what may seem strange times, and lead you to a place of peace and rest and green pasture, where you can first rebuild yourselves and your relationships, and then go out with strength wherever your path may lead. We here will help you on your spiritual journey, but no-one will tell you where to go or what to think.
I'd like to extend a sincere invitation to your wife to join us and give voice to her legitimate concerns.
If she doesn't want to join as a cafe resident, she can come as a lurker and just see what we talk about. If she comes in to "drink the coffee" [sign in], she's welcome to argue about anything she chooses. :drink:/>
I'm just chiming in to welcome you to this most rambunctious- in- the- best- way group of people around. Have no doubt. You are on the right track to disassociate yourself with TWI. Life outside is great, we have civil rights here, we can grow and follow our hearts. You can too.
I trust you and your wife can leave without any big uproar. Respect others and they will respect you. That is not to say you agree with them or want to fellowship with them. It means by their behavior you decide it is best for you to go elsewhere. This is all an understatement. What I want to say its, Run, BlueCord, Run!
A little about me (some of this may come in handy). I left in 87. It felt like an escape to me because of the terrible paranoia at HQ. I was in the 2nd Corps with LCM, I was married to a clergyman, I was a mother, I had been a researcher on the Aramaic project, and I had been loyal for 17 years. Boom. My personal crisis came while on the research team and then VP died and then Geer swooped in, and then and then and then.... long story short, I lost all but a couple of friends, but the new life I gained was more than worth it. You find that you can not only survive but thrive if you just remember TWI does not define who you are, nor does their propaganda.
Cheers to your courage. Thanks for visiting us. I hope you find helpful info and abundant empathy here. Let me know if I can help answer any questions you might have, especially about the research dept.
Just curious, do they still have a so-called research department any more?
They actually do NOT have a research department. At least there's nobody with a brown name tag that has "research" on it any more. They claim to have one, but the only research that goes on is when a teacher for the STS submits the teaching to the publication department to be "researched" to make sure it lines up with the collaterals. No new research is being done. They say it's because it's not being submitted, but that's just not true. People submit stuff and Rosalie fires them for it. It's "the collaterals, the collaterals, and nothing but the collaterals" these days
They actually do NOT have a research department. At least there's nobody with a brown name tag that has "research" on it any more. They claim to have one, but the only research that goes on is when a teacher for the STS submits the teaching to the publication department to be "researched" to make sure it lines up with the collaterals. No new research is being done. They say it's because it's not being submitted, but that's just not true. People submit stuff and Rosalie fires them for it. It's "the collaterals, the collaterals, and nothing but the collaterals" these days
Hmmmm.... in other words, the word of Wierwille is the will of Wierwille/god?
They actually do NOT have a research department. At least there's nobody with a brown name tag that has "research" on it any more. They claim to have one, but the only research that goes on is when a teacher for the STS submits the teaching to the publication department to be "researched" to make sure it lines up with the collaterals. No new research is being done. They say it's because it's not being submitted, but that's just not true. People submit stuff and Rosalie fires them for it. It's "the collaterals, the collaterals, and nothing but the collaterals" these days
Yeah, they RE-search, not research. VPW did the heavy lifting already. No need to re-invent the wheel.
I often use a laser pointer to move cats from one room to another. Sometimes, just to play with them. I find it amusing. Also, intriguing that they never seem to learn that it is simply not possible to catch the dot. Shine it right on their paws, they will not learn that more effort will not equal more success. I just point and make use of the cats own misplaced belief. Works. Every. Time.
All teachings are re-scripted. Not the point.
There's no new research. Not the point.
New ideas are presented and dismissed. Not the point.
The old research was plagiarized. Not the point.
The plagiarized material was questionable in the first place. Still not the point.
People keep believing there's something of value to hold on to. . . . Maybe, just believe a little harder, and Rosie will like you.
There's a lot to respond to in this post. First I'd like to start with Karl. I'm still reading the book. At once I'd like to say that I'm impressed that you put together works cited at the end of each chapter. The second is that now that I've made the decision to leave is that I am skeptical about EVERYTHING. I have a question that I'm sure will sound rude, but that isn't the intent. When you wrote your book, did you do it specifically to hurt the Way? Did you write it out of bitterness? I ask not because I'm trying to discredit your work, but because it seems so difficult to believe everything you are saying about the character of VPW. Now, the man died before I was even born, so I'm not trying to insult anybody by saying this. What I mean is that for the past six years all I've ever heard about VPW is the shiny, rosy picture that TWI presents of him. When I got involved with the Way D's back in 2010 I had heard the "rumors" about the adultery in the upper echelons of TWI, but I didn't believe them because I looked at the man coordinating the team of Way D's that had witnessed to me. I thought to myself "Jesus Christ himself could demand that (we'll call him Bob) Bob share his wife, and he'd tell the Lord to go .... himself". I literally thought that. I thought that if this guy at the lower levels was so spot on, the upper ranks couldn't be nearly as bad as the "rumors" I'd heard. And if SOME of the leaders were bad, well . . . that's because everybody is an individual that is responsible for their own actions. It certainly couldn't be as widespread as it was reported. That was my thinking process, and that is why I'm asking whether or not any parts of your book are exaggerated.
About the ideas that are planted in our head about some of the "losing protection/favor of God" . . . I've put it to the test in the form of ABS. I quit tithing about a year ago and haven't seen any negatives. I know that TWI isn't the only way to God. They don't have the market on truth cornered, so I'm not at all afraid about that.
Raf, thanks for getting me to this board. My wife thinks that all you guys are bitter and hateful towards the Way, so she's super concerned that y'all are brainwashing me now. LOL.
Bolshevik, I legitimately love a good majority of the people that are still involved. I don't want to rock the boat. It's not because I don't want to see TWI fail, but because I don't want to cause any harm to people who are still in it. With the current environment, they'll see the writing on the wall soon enough. TWI is a sinking ship and it's not about to get any better. Plus, I don't want to cause division among fellow Christians. If I can live peacefully with folks and still get my freedom back that's all I'm concerned about.
outandabout, I agree with your statement that we got some good teaching from TWI. And I'm EXPECTING to get more from other sources from outside of them as well. However, due to the fact that they are a cult and the information that I've read so far in Karl's book, I am questioning EVERYTHING they taught. I'm working with a guy now who was dropped from in-residence training because he asked questions about the Foundational Class, so I'm confident that as I review this material I'll have a better chance of keeping the good and throwing out the bad.
Tzaia, I've been thinking a LOT about what you've said about going quietly. The issue with just fading away is two-fold. First, I feel like as a decent, and honest human being I at least owe my local leadership the common courtesy of saying "Hey, I'm done with this. Please don't contact me anymore" (more or less). Secondly, when I left Staff I did so very shortly after signing some commitment to a 2nd year. My leave was abrupt, and I'm sure that it spoke volumes to the powers that be about the current situation. I want them to know that I'm leaving and I want them to know why. I don't expect it will make any difference, but I HOPE that it could make Rosie open her eyes and realize that she's gotta start taking care of people instead of things. Me leaving, even though quietly and respectfully, is meant to send a message.
Twinky, I have been worried that my friends and family would think I'm possessed or something. So far the folks that I have told are actually somewhat supportive of me. They have gone so far as to say that TWI is not the only way to have a relationship with God . . . that they would never think less of, or harass anybody for leaving. So, that has given me a little peace of mind about the upcoming talk I still have to schedule with my leadership. I'm thinking of just sending them a letter. The guy that I mentioned that got dropped from the in residence training for asking questions cautioned me that if I do talk to them face to face they are going to be reading everything about me (like body language, dress, mannerisms, etc) to try to say that I'm possessed, so I'm trying to prepare for that.
Hah Per what your wife said, Some of us are hateful and bitter towards the way but so what? Now we can be if we want to. It's part of the recovery. I'm not as much now, but I was ....ed off when I left and this forum was validating and a place to vent. When we were in TWI we weren't allowed any negative emotions. (Unless you were top leadership and you could be "spiritually angry" and yell at people when you felt like it.)
And questioning PFAL is very valid. There are a lot of things in there that are questionable. We're free to judge.
There's a lot to respond to in this post. First I'd like to start with Karl. I'm still reading the book. At once I'd like to say that I'm impressed that you put together works cited at the end of each chapter. The second is that now that I've made the decision to leave is that I am skeptical about EVERYTHING. I have a question that I'm sure will sound rude, but that isn't the intent. When you wrote your book, did you do it specifically to hurt the Way? Did you write it out of bitterness? I ask not because I'm trying to discredit your work, but because it seems so difficult to believe everything you are saying about the character of VPW. Now, the man died before I was even born, so I'm not trying to insult anybody by saying this. What I mean is that for the past six years all I've ever heard about VPW is the shiny, rosy picture that TWI presents of him. When I got involved with the Way D's back in 2010 I had heard the "rumors" about the adultery in the upper echelons of TWI, but I didn't believe them because I looked at the man coordinating the team of Way D's that had witnessed to me. I thought to myself "Jesus Christ himself could demand that (we'll call him Bob) Bob share his wife, and he'd tell the Lord to go .... himself". I literally thought that. I thought that if this guy at the lower levels was so spot on, the upper ranks couldn't be nearly as bad as the "rumors" I'd heard. And if SOME of the leaders were bad, well . . . that's because everybody is an individual that is responsible for their own actions. It certainly couldn't be as widespread as it was reported. That was my thinking process, and that is why I'm asking whether or not any parts of your book are exaggerated.
About the ideas that are planted in our head about some of the "losing protection/favor of God" . . . I've put it to the test in the form of ABS. I quit tithing about a year ago and haven't seen any negatives. I know that TWI isn't the only way to God. They don't have the market on truth cornered, so I'm not at all afraid about that.
Raf, thanks for getting me to this board. My wife thinks that all you guys are bitter and hateful towards the Way, so she's super concerned that y'all are brainwashing me now. LOL.
Bolshevik, I legitimately love a good majority of the people that are still involved. I don't want to rock the boat. It's not because I don't want to see TWI fail, but because I don't want to cause any harm to people who are still in it. With the current environment, they'll see the writing on the wall soon enough. TWI is a sinking ship and it's not about to get any better. Plus, I don't want to cause division among fellow Christians. If I can live peacefully with folks and still get my freedom back that's all I'm concerned about.
outandabout, I agree with your statement that we got some good teaching from TWI. And I'm EXPECTING to get more from other sources from outside of them as well. However, due to the fact that they are a cult and the information that I've read so far in Karl's book, I am questioning EVERYTHING they taught. I'm working with a guy now who was dropped from in-residence training because he asked questions about the Foundational Class, so I'm confident that as I review this material I'll have a better chance of keeping the good and throwing out the bad.
Tzaia, I've been thinking a LOT about what you've said about going quietly. The issue with just fading away is two-fold. First, I feel like as a decent, and honest human being I at least owe my local leadership the common courtesy of saying "Hey, I'm done with this. Please don't contact me anymore" (more or less). Secondly, when I left Staff I did so very shortly after signing some commitment to a 2nd year. My leave was abrupt, and I'm sure that it spoke volumes to the powers that be about the current situation. I want them to know that I'm leaving and I want them to know why. I don't expect it will make any difference, but I HOPE that it could make Rosie open her eyes and realize that she's gotta start taking care of people instead of things. Me leaving, even though quietly and respectfully, is meant to send a message.
Twinky, I have been worried that my friends and family would think I'm possessed or something. So far the folks that I have told are actually somewhat supportive of me. They have gone so far as to say that TWI is not the only way to have a relationship with God . . . that they would never think less of, or harass anybody for leaving. So, that has given me a little peace of mind about the upcoming talk I still have to schedule with my leadership. I'm thinking of just sending them a letter. The guy that I mentioned that got dropped from the in residence training for asking questions cautioned me that if I do talk to them face to face they are going to be reading everything about me (like body language, dress, mannerisms, etc) to try to say that I'm possessed, so I'm trying to prepare for that.
I got out by writing a letter to the area leader. But I did tell the twig leader. He didn't agree with me but he didn't give me a hard time. Oh and I took the phone off the hook for several days. I told the area leader in my letter not to call us.
My wife is on board with leaving. When I said she thinks y'all are going to brainwash me, she means that she thinks you're all bitter and angry towards the Way. She hasn't yet grasped that a community of people who were done wrong by an organization can legitimately be trying to help others out of a similar situation without any animosity bleeding through. And I agree with the statement that our relationship is super important to focus on. If she were still happy in the Way I wouldn't have come to this conclusion of leaving. But, we are both unhappy. We don't have anything positive to say about our most recent experiences with the ministry. Every time I bring up this site or the book, her response is the same to "be careful. You don't know those people". So, I've just quit talking about what we're talking about on the site.
Again, I'd like to reiterate that she's on board with leaving. Especially in light of some of the more recent news coming from HQ with the directors being focused more on money than people, she's ready to go. I'm on my phone right now, so I can't go into detail, but basically people are getting fired simply for disagreeing with her.
Like I said before, being bitter and angry at The Way is a human emotion. God created us with a gamut of emotions. We weren't allowed to have normal emotions while in The Way. We were supposed to be blessed and happy all the time and if we weren't we were not manifesting the renewed mind. Being used and abused for years can make one bitter and angry. Especially if the feeling was suppressed for years. Eventually, the normal pattern is to get over the anger and move on. How long that may take varies from person to person, but in this place we can express how we feel about it and it is very healing. I found validation here, that I wasn't alone in the verbal and mental abuse I was subjected to. Everybody's experience differs but there are basic similarities in what we were subject to. I love to hear other peoples' stories, just like I love Karl Kahler's book. I think he did a great service by writing it.
They actually do NOT have a research department. At least there's nobody with a brown name tag that has "research" on it any more. They claim to have one, but the only research that goes on is when a teacher for the STS submits the teaching to the publication department to be "researched" to make sure it lines up with the collaterals. No new research is being done. They say it's because it's not being submitted, but that's just not true. People submit stuff and Rosalie fires them for it. It's "the collaterals, the collaterals, and nothing but the collaterals" these days
That just sounds to totally BORING. That's almost worse than abuse. Maybe that IS a form of abuse. ha ha
When we were in TWI we weren't allowed any negative emotions. (Unless you were top leadership and you could be "spiritually angry" and yell at people when you felt like it.)
Too right on this. Okay to be "spiritually angry" if you were a leader especially if you were LCM. Or maybe a region coord or some such.
Anybody else that might get angry ... I don't think anyone would have dared actually unless they wanted a fast ticket out.
What I'm struggling with right now is trying to sort out the truth from the lies in their teachings.
Well, I suppose it wouldn't be right to think this is (or will be) any easier (or less painful) for you then it's probably been (and still is) for many. Perhaps the truth can be compared to water, which is hard to live very long without. But if too much comes at you too fast, it usually picks up and carries tons of dirt and debris, and it can sweep you off your feet and drown you before you even realize its at flood stage. (And truth poured out without much love can be so cold, it not only takes your breath away, large frozen blocks of it can crush the life out of you.)
I would recommend praying for the gently rains of truth to assist you in "growing away from" wherever you are now in your mind. Given the egotistical patterns of thinking "I have and know more truth than you" (which twi became quite adept at breeding into people), perhaps you will find yourself struggling just as much with your personal relationships with those around you as you are with the errors of teachers past. Learning to let God and the Lord Jesus Christ be your teacher(s), and not just the Internet (or anything/anyone else), is one of the more vital lessons in humility. Perhaps the most sensible way to "sort out" the truth of the past, is really to learn the truth of the present.
I know a lot of folks here aren't Christians, but my wife and I still are.
Can't tell much by the name or nametag, that's for sure. (What good ever came from those dang things, anyways...?)
But, it usually doesn't take only reading a post or two to see where somebody is coming from. (Especially if you ask.)
A lot of what was taught in the classes seem to make sense to us. Like, I have my doubts about the speaking in tongues and everything, but I still speak in tongues and it still helps me feel good and peaceful. Then at the same time it sounds like a bunch of gibberish to me. It's crazy. I haven't started the search for a church yet, but I'm about to Google local churches in my area.
Plenty of opinions here on all of that.
Personally, I enjoy listening to Les Feldick. (except when he's wrong... lol.)
Regarding this re-search stuff, I was given a topic upon which to write my Corps paper, whatever they called it. My work on this was really enjoyable. I learned a huge amount. There was no TWI teaching that I knew of upon the wider subject, where my studies took me; I ended up rummaging all over the OT and NT and it is stuff that stays with me now. Powerful.
My first draft was sent back because there weren't enough references to collaterals and other TWI material (Bible verses, note, were well quoted and all refs given). I had to go through my paper and insert refs to TWI materials - and in some cases, tweak what I'd written so as to be able to make reference to some TWI book. It added nothing; it wasn't relevant.
It seems that several people read the paper (there was only ever one copy) and quite a number came back to me and said it was great stuff, they'd enjoyed reading it, it was new and interesting and should be widely shared. You suppose it was? Ha ha, think again. I never heard any aspect of it ever referred to again. 18months later I was rudely and publicly ejected from TWI.
But what I learned (what God showed me) stays with me; I apply it now; I try to live by it.
LCM gave me this topic, no doubt expecting something quite different from what he got; I suspect he wanted to pinch the work and use it to defend his own actions. Unfortunately, it showed him for the hypocrite, liar and adulterer that he was.
Monday is going to be a very tough day for me. But I will draw strength and wisdom from what I learned in researching that paper over 20 years ago.
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BlueCord
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to report that I'm still alive and well . . . even after leaving TWI. It's been a while, but I went and got myself into debt (a mortgage) and I've started going to colle
waysider
BlueCord One thing that helps, in my opinion, is coming to grips with the reality that The Way is just a cult. It's not some elite organization, striving for some noble goal. It's just a cult, like t
BlueCord
This is so accurate. I was talking to a guy last night who was dropped from the corp and/or in residence training and I was explaining to him how I'm reading Karl's book. One of the things that I ment
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Raf
BlueCord: we all have different journeys. Most people on this board are still Christian or spiritual in one way or another. I myself am not. Nobody is going to brainwash you into anything here because we can't even agree with each other long enough to decide what to brainwash you into. You'd end up being an atheist-trinitarian-fundamentalist-evangelical-wiccan-dispensationalist-covenant-theologian who believes the Bible contains no contradictions or errors except for the errors and contradictions it contains. You may end up thinking Wierwille was anything from the second coming of the apostle Paul to a traveling salesman who always believes in the band, kid. To a rapist.
You will be respected, but as you work out to sort truth from error, angry hyperbole from history, reality form/with spirituality, be assured that some of us will agree with you, some will not, and in the end we will always be happy to see you. Even when we're not.
Happy posting.
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krys
With all the great suggestions given here - one of the most significant, in my view, was Rocky's about taking care of your relationship with your wife. When you're out, you'll need each other. Even if it means you have to stay a bit longer than you want....if she's not coming along willingly, that would set you guys up for separation and eventual divorce.
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WordWolf
Yes, THIS!
twi's been big fans of using one spouse against the other,
and making the "faithful" spouse feel bad if the other was less-than-perfect
or less-than-perfectly-loyal.
Got an alcoholic spouse? You're failing to walk the walk!
Got a spouse that wants out? You're failing to magically believe enough!
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BlueCord
My wife is on board with leaving. When I said she thinks y'all are going to brainwash me, she means that she thinks you're all bitter and angry towards the Way. She hasn't yet grasped that a community of people who were done wrong by an organization can legitimately be trying to help others out of a similar situation without any animosity bleeding through. And I agree with the statement that our relationship is super important to focus on. If she were still happy in the Way I wouldn't have come to this conclusion of leaving. But, we are both unhappy. We don't have anything positive to say about our most recent experiences with the ministry. Every time I bring up this site or the book, her response is the same to "be careful. You don't know those people". So, I've just quit talking about what we're talking about on the site.
Again, I'd like to reiterate that she's on board with leaving. Especially in light of some of the more recent news coming from HQ with the directors being focused more on money than people, she's ready to go. I'm on my phone right now, so I can't go into detail, but basically people are getting fired simply for disagreeing with her.
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Bolshevik
She's right. Or not.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi BlueCord. Welcome to the Greasespot!......Best site on the web for accurate, proven, and even publicly adjudicated FACTS on TWIt and all its pathological "trustees", from dictor paul to Rosie the riveter. Malignant paranoid narcissists, serial rapists and sexual predators, drunks, neo-Nazis and pathological liars.
You have yet to come to grips with the fact that TWIt and EVERYTHING you and your wife have ever heard or "learned" from TWIt is false teaching and ALL of it is anti(against)-Christ. Jesus Christ has absolutely no place as the active Lord and Intercessor in ANY TWIt doctrine. There is no room for Christ in TWIt. They're all to busy trying to take the place of the absent Christ......and, He is indeed ABSENT from TWIt......with their private interpretation of their "Word"......plagiarized at its best from Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, et al. You and your wife have been trained to allow TWIt doctrine to usurp your true identity in Christ. Heck!....you're not even allowed to pray to or have fellowship with the Author and Finisher of the faith which bears His name! Also, you have conditioned yourselves to trust no one outside TWIt's mogs and moggettes. They fear the Devil and his minions than they love the Boss, Jesus Christ. They are more consumed with their meaningless and fruitless "spiritual warfare against The Adversary" and all his constant attacks and conspiracies against them, than they are in a loving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
You have allowed yourselves to distrust everything, everyone, all the time.....especially those who question TWIt and their anti-Christ doctrine. They're all of the da Debbil or controlled by debbil spurts. You're either totally with them or you're with da debbil. Those Greasespotters are all bitter, angry, crazy or possessed. They're full of hate and vain babble. They're off da woid! Yeah well, welcome to REALITY! Hang in here for a while BlueCord. I think you'll feel at home quite soon. Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, not the anti-Christ poison of TWIt. The Truth will make you free!..................peace.
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BlueCord
This is so accurate. I was talking to a guy last night who was dropped from the corp and/or in residence training and I was explaining to him how I'm reading Karl's book. One of the things that I mentioned was that I hadn't even been born by the time VPW died. I didn't get into the Way until a decade after Martindale. So, all I've heard about VPW is what TWI wants you to hear. I start reading Karl's book and the parts about VPW have me absolutely horrified. Then I start thinking kind of like TWI has brainwashed us to think. "I wasn't there. I didn't see it. Maybe it's all made up." But when I was talking to this guy last night he and I came to the same conclusion. "Where there's smoke, there's fire." And there's a whole hell of a lot of smoke if even half of what Karl wrote is true. So, I believe this guy was the scum of the Earth. It's just left me kind of in shock, though. I'm certain I'll fit in just fine. I already like talking with y'all. I like that you already understand the lingo, you've been there, worked through the same stuff I'm working through and you're telling me it's normal. It's like "there's a light at the end of the tunnel" kind of scenario, and it's refreshing.
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T-Bone
Hi Blue Cord, I've marked in bold red your comments I'd like to say something about:
Your wife is right in thinking that way….i think most folks when they first leave TWI are bitter and angry – and usually have more than that going on at the time. I think you'll find many folks at Grease Spot have mellowed out with the passage of time and in working things out – that's some of the mental baggage I talked about in my previous post.
Btw – there's nothing wrong with being angry – sometimes it does take a "righteous" anger to spur someone on to speak up and right a wrong (think about Mark 3:5, Jesus' anger over the hardness of hearts and Matthew 21 where Jesus drove out those buying and selling, overturned tables, etc. to cleanse the Temple – I don't think his demeanor was happy and laid back).
Anyway – like I said in my other post - open and honest communication between you and your wife is essential; matter of fact, my wife Tonto was into Grease Spot and its other "incarnations" long before I joined – and she got me interested in Grease Spot finally with things she would share because I plum run out of ideas on how to figure out the crazy-town-mess known as TWI....besides…. I think TWI was a man's world in many ways - I think a lot of guys/husbands felt superior to women, would snub them rather than consider their viewpoint on something.
So when your wife says something like "be careful. You don't know those people" that's good advice. You "know" us only thru cyberspace. However, i want to offer another bit of advice to run in tandem while you're working things out - modifying what she said and pointing it back at TWI. Be careful – you really don't know the extent of the damage TWI has caused…I don't think anyone ever will.
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waysider
An interesting comparison:
HERE
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Twinky
BlueCord, I wish you and your wife well on your journey out of TWI. God bless and prosper you both.
At the Cafe, we're individuals with individual points of view. We are not TWI clones, all saying the same thing. Unless you are a VPW apologist (which you're not) your point of view is as valid as everyone else's. You can also expect your PoV to change over time.
VPW was dead before I got involved; I suffered under Pontius Martindale. :mad2:/>
For myself, when I first stumbled across this site, I was horrified, really horrified, at the things people were saying against this great ministry, TWI. How could people say such things? I was appalled at a number of levels. And yet... and yet... the stories people told had a strange coherency with my own experience. A strange ring of truth that was most disconcerting. As I continued to read here, I found that a lot of my suppressed concerns about TWI were voiced and the truth behind those concerns was articulated. I read with fascinated horror.
This site is one of the places that set me free from TWI lies.
Now, I enjoy exploring life with God and finding new ways to help and serve other people. Genuinely. No element of fear, or ostracism for non-compliance. I appreciate the wisdom of mature Christians from other strands of Christianity - and getting along with them without feeling I need to defend my PoV or be browbeaten by their PoV. Indeed, this very evening I've had a most interesting conversation with a deeply committed Trinitarian Christian and we can respect each others views of who Jesus Christ is (and how he came to be) and his gifts to us, and still learn from each other.
You and your wife please just put your confidence in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ to guide you through what may seem strange times, and lead you to a place of peace and rest and green pasture, where you can first rebuild yourselves and your relationships, and then go out with strength wherever your path may lead. We here will help you on your spiritual journey, but no-one will tell you where to go or what to think.
I'd like to extend a sincere invitation to your wife to join us and give voice to her legitimate concerns.
If she doesn't want to join as a cafe resident, she can come as a lurker and just see what we talk about. If she comes in to "drink the coffee" [sign in], she's welcome to argue about anything she chooses. :drink:/>
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penworks
Hi BlueCord,
I'm just chiming in to welcome you to this most rambunctious- in- the- best- way group of people around. Have no doubt. You are on the right track to disassociate yourself with TWI. Life outside is great, we have civil rights here, we can grow and follow our hearts. You can too.
I trust you and your wife can leave without any big uproar. Respect others and they will respect you. That is not to say you agree with them or want to fellowship with them. It means by their behavior you decide it is best for you to go elsewhere. This is all an understatement. What I want to say its, Run, BlueCord, Run!
A little about me (some of this may come in handy). I left in 87. It felt like an escape to me because of the terrible paranoia at HQ. I was in the 2nd Corps with LCM, I was married to a clergyman, I was a mother, I had been a researcher on the Aramaic project, and I had been loyal for 17 years. Boom. My personal crisis came while on the research team and then VP died and then Geer swooped in, and then and then and then.... long story short, I lost all but a couple of friends, but the new life I gained was more than worth it. You find that you can not only survive but thrive if you just remember TWI does not define who you are, nor does their propaganda.
Cheers to your courage. Thanks for visiting us. I hope you find helpful info and abundant empathy here. Let me know if I can help answer any questions you might have, especially about the research dept.
Just curious, do they still have a so-called research department any more?
All the best,
Charlene Edge
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BlueCord
Charlene,
They actually do NOT have a research department. At least there's nobody with a brown name tag that has "research" on it any more. They claim to have one, but the only research that goes on is when a teacher for the STS submits the teaching to the publication department to be "researched" to make sure it lines up with the collaterals. No new research is being done. They say it's because it's not being submitted, but that's just not true. People submit stuff and Rosalie fires them for it. It's "the collaterals, the collaterals, and nothing but the collaterals" these days
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Rocky
Hmmmm.... in other words, the word of Wierwille is the will of Wierwille/god?
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Bolshevik
Yeah, they RE-search, not research. VPW did the heavy lifting already. No need to re-invent the wheel.
I often use a laser pointer to move cats from one room to another. Sometimes, just to play with them. I find it amusing. Also, intriguing that they never seem to learn that it is simply not possible to catch the dot. Shine it right on their paws, they will not learn that more effort will not equal more success. I just point and make use of the cats own misplaced belief. Works. Every. Time.
All teachings are re-scripted. Not the point.
There's no new research. Not the point.
New ideas are presented and dismissed. Not the point.
The old research was plagiarized. Not the point.
The plagiarized material was questionable in the first place. Still not the point.
People keep believing there's something of value to hold on to. . . . Maybe, just believe a little harder, and Rosie will like you.
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WordWolf
That "re-reading" thing began-at least visibly- with lcm.
lcm said that "research" meant "to search again" and that it meant, in practice, to REREAD the collaterals.
The corps were taught that, too. I was OUT and a minister who was OUT (ex-corps) verbally discouraged
me from doing independent research and recommended just reviewing the collaterals.
So, that lesson stuck with him, for sure.
I think part of that was lcm's own ineptness at actual RESEARCH that led him to discourage others
from doing it as well.
Then came vpw's death, the fog years, and the line in the sand.
After vpw's death, when POP was read, lcm spent the next few years, according to him,
in a metaphorical "FOG". When he stopped, he drew a line in the sand, and demanded personal
allegiance to himself. When someone asked if lcm really meant he wanted to be followed blindly,
lcm told him directly that he was already doing that (in lcm's mind, at least.) The guy responded by
telling lcm to kiss something, and that was when he left twi.
When the fog years began, some of the top people walked off, along with some rank-and-file.
When lcm demanded his oath of allegiance (late 1988 for the top, early 1989 for the rank-and-file),
80% of everyone left- including, apparently, the entire Research Department (all or almost all.)
The very next ROA had an event on "Word in Culture" which was entirely focused on getting all the
writers in the room to submit articles to twi's magazine. The magazine's, henceforth, started
using a TON of photos and images with their articles- all to take up page-space and make it look
like the writing hadn't thinned out greatly. ("gmir", the column with actual research, was never
seen again after the "line in the sand", AFAIK.) Since then, it's been a lot of rehashing of
the collaterals. And, apparently, that hasn't changed as the DECADES have passed. It's been over
25 years, and there's still no Research Dept. Then again, that would need people who could think
for themselves, and rfr is completely disinterested in that...
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outandabout
Hah Per what your wife said, Some of us are hateful and bitter towards the way but so what? Now we can be if we want to. It's part of the recovery. I'm not as much now, but I was ....ed off when I left and this forum was validating and a place to vent. When we were in TWI we weren't allowed any negative emotions. (Unless you were top leadership and you could be "spiritually angry" and yell at people when you felt like it.)
And questioning PFAL is very valid. There are a lot of things in there that are questionable. We're free to judge.
I got out by writing a letter to the area leader. But I did tell the twig leader. He didn't agree with me but he didn't give me a hard time. Oh and I took the phone off the hook for several days. I told the area leader in my letter not to call us.
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outandabout
Like I said before, being bitter and angry at The Way is a human emotion. God created us with a gamut of emotions. We weren't allowed to have normal emotions while in The Way. We were supposed to be blessed and happy all the time and if we weren't we were not manifesting the renewed mind. Being used and abused for years can make one bitter and angry. Especially if the feeling was suppressed for years. Eventually, the normal pattern is to get over the anger and move on. How long that may take varies from person to person, but in this place we can express how we feel about it and it is very healing. I found validation here, that I wasn't alone in the verbal and mental abuse I was subjected to. Everybody's experience differs but there are basic similarities in what we were subject to. I love to hear other peoples' stories, just like I love Karl Kahler's book. I think he did a great service by writing it.
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outandabout
That just sounds to totally BORING. That's almost worse than abuse. Maybe that IS a form of abuse. ha ha
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Twinky
Anybody else that might get angry ... I don't think anyone would have dared actually unless they wanted a fast ticket out.
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TLC
Well, I suppose it wouldn't be right to think this is (or will be) any easier (or less painful) for you then it's probably been (and still is) for many. Perhaps the truth can be compared to water, which is hard to live very long without. But if too much comes at you too fast, it usually picks up and carries tons of dirt and debris, and it can sweep you off your feet and drown you before you even realize its at flood stage. (And truth poured out without much love can be so cold, it not only takes your breath away, large frozen blocks of it can crush the life out of you.)
I would recommend praying for the gently rains of truth to assist you in "growing away from" wherever you are now in your mind. Given the egotistical patterns of thinking "I have and know more truth than you" (which twi became quite adept at breeding into people), perhaps you will find yourself struggling just as much with your personal relationships with those around you as you are with the errors of teachers past. Learning to let God and the Lord Jesus Christ be your teacher(s), and not just the Internet (or anything/anyone else), is one of the more vital lessons in humility. Perhaps the most sensible way to "sort out" the truth of the past, is really to learn the truth of the present.
Can't tell much by the name or nametag, that's for sure. (What good ever came from those dang things, anyways...?)
But, it usually doesn't take only reading a post or two to see where somebody is coming from. (Especially if you ask.)
Plenty of opinions here on all of that.
Personally, I enjoy listening to Les Feldick. (except when he's wrong... lol.)
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WordWolf
In the early 80s, lcm would get mad and yell on tape, and actually apologize briefly
for getting mad.
In the early 90s, after lcm was convinced his every utterance was now endorsed by
God Almighty, he got mad and yelled a lot more, all the time, and categorized it
as "spiritual anger", as if adding the word "spiritual" in front made it so and
excused his behavior. That's when some children were learning to curse from lcm's
tirades. vpw knew to keep his cursing in check when a microphone was on. He cursed
quite a bit in private, and certainly screamed in private, but when the public was
watching, he transformed himself into a veritable angel of light.
[edit: unfortunate typo]
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MRAP
All good stuff but maybe we are going off on tangents here?
Where's the Exit? Sorry to say there has never been a big red EXIT sign: open the door and walk outside.
However and whenever you leave TWI, stuff drags along, lots of stuff.
Some of it clings for years, decades and even longer.
Here's the exit TWI renewed mind: count it all as dung.
The Apostle Paul spent decades in his Jewish career and left that for the freedom offered in Jesus Christ.
Consider his leaving the law for the true freedom.
TWI (The Way) was the more legalistic and law oriented than any of our current Christian sects/denominations.
TWI used Christianity just like the Jews of Christ's time used the "law" to enslave people for their own personal gain.
Yes, it is pathetic.
BlueCord, I think you have received some very excellent information on an exit strategy and more.
Hopefully, the Grease Spot Cafe (GSC) has provided some usefull information for you and your wife to utilize.
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Rocky
Not necessarily a bad thing.
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Twinky
This is slightly off-topic.
Regarding this re-search stuff, I was given a topic upon which to write my Corps paper, whatever they called it. My work on this was really enjoyable. I learned a huge amount. There was no TWI teaching that I knew of upon the wider subject, where my studies took me; I ended up rummaging all over the OT and NT and it is stuff that stays with me now. Powerful.
My first draft was sent back because there weren't enough references to collaterals and other TWI material (Bible verses, note, were well quoted and all refs given). I had to go through my paper and insert refs to TWI materials - and in some cases, tweak what I'd written so as to be able to make reference to some TWI book. It added nothing; it wasn't relevant.
It seems that several people read the paper (there was only ever one copy) and quite a number came back to me and said it was great stuff, they'd enjoyed reading it, it was new and interesting and should be widely shared. You suppose it was? Ha ha, think again. I never heard any aspect of it ever referred to again. 18months later I was rudely and publicly ejected from TWI.
But what I learned (what God showed me) stays with me; I apply it now; I try to live by it.
LCM gave me this topic, no doubt expecting something quite different from what he got; I suspect he wanted to pinch the work and use it to defend his own actions. Unfortunately, it showed him for the hypocrite, liar and adulterer that he was.
Monday is going to be a very tough day for me. But I will draw strength and wisdom from what I learned in researching that paper over 20 years ago.
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