Romans 13:1-7 is Pauline "revelation", most of which is not "godbreathed", and it preaches a different Christianity than its Founder, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Chew on that for awhile, remembering from whom you adopted ultradispensationalism as your underlying presumption of privately interpreting The Bible, IMO. TY.
And therein lies the danger of reading everything in the epistles as though it applies directly to us, now (in whatever country and political regime we find ourselves).
Wasn't this a political bit by Paul, who didn't want people falling out and getting into trouble with the super-power of the day?
It's still a good idea to avoid conflict with government bodies... but there are limits. This could be a very interesting topic to discuss.
In a church I have been attending, the pastor is presenting sermons on the book of Romans.
Maybe I have fallen asleep all the other times I have read Romans 13:1-7 or maybe the current political climate and world events made me more ware of these verses (from the NIV):
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
OK, help me understand how, as the pastor taught, that all governments are from God.
Stalin? Pinochet? Hitler? Mussolini? Idi Amin? Taliban? Ayatollahs? Castro?
Socialism? Communism? Totalitarianism? Fascism?
So rebelling against a represssive or even murderous government is rebelling against God?
If so, my view of God is going to have to change.
NO. They are NOT. None of them are. Not even legitimate democracies.
All government systems are nothing more than different ways to organize societies and the collective power that arises from the people therein.
That said, there is wisdom in adhering to the rules and laws of society. But there can also be godly wisdom in rebelling against some in certain situations.
In a church I have been attending, the pastor is presenting sermons on the book of Romans.
Maybe I have fallen asleep all the other times I have read Romans 13:1-7 or maybe the current political climate and world events made me more ware of these verses (from the NIV):
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
OK, help me understand how, as the pastor taught, that all governments are from God.
Stalin? Pinochet? Hitler? Mussolini? Idi Amin? Taliban? Ayatollahs? Castro?
Socialism? Communism? Totalitarianism? Fascism?
So rebelling against a represssive or even murderous government is rebelling against God?
If so, my view of God is going to have to change.
Well, you're obviously going to get a variety of very opinionated responses to this, Tom. And I can't say that I'm surprised that the first batch of these want you to toss out these verses, as though they should never have been written (much less ever have been canonized and be a part of the Bible.) Still, I think it's a fair question that's merits a lot more than that kind of brush off and tossing aside.
As you probably already know or are aware, twi teaches that this section of Romans refers only to the authorities (or the authoritative structure) with the church. (Namely, or more specifically, thought and said to be "the gift ministries.") Having been indoctrinated into that same manner of thinking for many years, it wasn't that easy to more objectively (i.e., more honestly) consider other possibilities might exist for it. However, I'm more recently of the opinion that there's another way to look at it these verse that make much more sense than how twi interprets them. (I just don't have the time right now to go much further into it. The main point is, just don't be so quick to toss them aside as if they shouldn't be in the Bible, or mistakenly think that they mean whatever somebody else wants you to think they mean.)
Romans 13:1-7 is Pauline "revelation", most of which is not "godbreathed", and it preaches a different Christianity than its Founder, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Chew on that for awhile, remembering from whom you adopted ultradispensationalism as your underlying presumption of privately interpreting The Bible, IMO. TY."
"Well, you're obviously going to get a variety of very opinionated responses to this, Tom. And I can't say that I'm surprised that the first batch of these want you to toss out these verses, as though they should never have been written (much less ever have been canonized and be a part of the Bible.) Still, I think it's a fair question that's merits a lot more than that kind of brush off and tossing aside."....
OK TLC.....I'll bite.
Firstly, I never wrote nor implied that the Pauline letters "should never have been written". Those are your words. They are complete misrepresentation of what I wrote. Classic example of the straw man logical fallacy if there ever was one. Nice try.......
Several questions:
1) Who actually wrote the letters attributed to Saul of Tarsus?
2) Who determined which ones were "godbreathed" enough to be considered The Word of God?
3) Who decided to canonize the Pauline letters to specific churches and/ or individuals? Who, where, and when determined that these letters were to be taken as The Word of God as much as what Jesus spoke and demonstrated?
4) when were the Pauline letters written?
5) Were the Pauline letters written before the 4 canonized gospels?
6) Do the Canonized Pauline letters contain the interpretation or "revelation" of something Jesus Christ did not know? Are THEY the source of ultradispensationalism?
TY for taking the time to consider my questions. I look forward to your replies.
Here are the verses right before Romans 13. These verses promote being peaceful and loving to all of mankind. Sorry, but someone like Adolph Hitler would not qualify as being peaceful and loving. For his punishment it would be "Vegeance is Mine, I will repay." This will certainly be in the future judgement of mankind. However, seeing the next verses it could also be in this age.
Romans chapter 12
Behave Like a Christian
9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 Therefore
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Next we have Romans chapter 13. This is the equivalent of the police for overcoming evil in our age. Obviously, the police must have high standards of justice for all. There goal is to protect the loving and peaceful against thieves and murderers. If they don't follow high standards, obviously they need to get fired. Paul here shows confidence that they would follow high standards. Unfortunately when mixed with the scribes and pharisees, who he was a member of previously they did not with Paul's unjust death in the near future. Hence, the scribes and pharisees and nation of Israel came to an end some time after this. And so did the Roman empire. Please read this in context with verses 8, 9, and 10. And if any pastor reads verses out of context, he or she needs to be corrected.
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Love Your Neighbor
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
And one more thing. Paul's teachings are in harmony with Jesus Christ's teachings.
There has been so much parsing of these verses and interpretations and commentaries and not one of them has ever explained how all power in government comes from God.
To me that is absolutely the most absurd explanation of these verses, unless, of course God has MPD and is, at one time, all loving, and at another a murdering, torturing entity against the "innocent".
I don't accept VPW and TWI explanation of these verses either. Saying that the authority spoken of in the verses is the authority within the church is inconsistent with the context.
Yet, there is no plausible explanation I have found to say, for instance, Stalin's authority came from God.
I agree, we are to live, as much as it is in our control, peaceably with all men. I am not looking for a reason to start a riot not do I condone anarchy. So, yes, the idea of the government of men is from God, but all governments. Sorry, can't accept that.
I agree that government of people, especially the executive branch or enforcement branch, keeps evil in check. Case in point, look what happens during blackouts or major natural disasters.
But I am really trying to understand this section of Romans.
That being said, I don't want anyone to hand feed me everything. I would be just as grateful if someone has a useful reference and can just point me to it.
Verses like this really lead me to want to research the origins of the New Testament books and see what may have been in the "origina" letters versus what we have now and how much was translated incorrectly.
Some things just seem like they wee added afterwards or are not God breathed.
Don't forget, Paul has been shown to be in error in the New Testament. We all have heard at least one explanation on how Paul was mistaken to travel to Jerusalem. But also look at his handling of John Mark and the contention he caused with Barnabas, which I believe from my reading, was in error.
Anyway, I have set these verses aside for now and cannot honestly expound on theme to anyone who asks because I cannot give a logical, coherent answer.
Ya know, if you think of this as a letter that some guy wrote to a bunch of people a long time ago, in a place and culture that confounds us, about a situation whose details we really don't understand...it suddenly doesn't seem so important.
Ya know, if you think of this as a letter that some guy wrote to a bunch of people a long time ago, in a place and culture that confounds us, about a situation whose details we really don't understand...it suddenly doesn't seem so important.
Except when the Pastor at the church you are attending teaches on this section to hundreds of people and states that all government authority is from God.
Except when the Pastor at the church you are attending teaches on this section to hundreds of people and states that all government authority is from God.
Then it becomes extremely important.
The question now is who is ignoring these scriptures right after the scriptures you say the pastor quoted from? Are you ignoring them or did he or she ignore them? And NO, not every government follows this all the time. If all nations would follow this then we would not have wars between nations under their governing authorities. However, sorry, but we have had wars between nations. Do wars between nations show love and follow the below?
Romans chapter 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
"Next we have Romans chapter 13. This is the equivalent of the police for overcoming evil in our age. Obviously, the police must have high standards of justice for all. There goal is to protect the loving and peaceful against thieves and murderers. If they don't follow high standards, obviously they need to get fired. Paul here shows confidence that they would follow high standards".
Mark, please. Says WHO? YOU? Some commentary you read and learned somewhere? False equivalence is a logical fallacy. IMO, your "equivalent to the police for overcoming evil in our age."......is just that, a false equivalency. Dude! Are you really serious? You literally believe THAT? Please tell me. I most certainly DO NOT. Confusing or conflating the spiritual with government and politics has been proven wrong in the Bible since the Israelites picked Saul to be their King! I absolutely do not agree with your presumptuous interpretation of Romans 12 & 13. Please provide some more info when you can. TY.
"The question now is who is ignoring these scriptures right after the scriptures you say the pastor quoted from? Are you ignoring them or did he or she ignore them? And NO, not every government follows this all the time. If all nations would follow this then we would not have wars between nations under their governing authorities. However, sorry, but we have had wars between nations. Do wars between nations show love and follow the below? :confused:/>".
Whose "scriptures? Hindu? Buddhist? Islamic? Hebrew? Egyptian? Goes back to my question....." Who and what determines what is scriptura? Until that question is answered all else is dogmatic rhetoric IMO. Until "scriptures" is defined, there is no logical context to further discussion. Therefore whomever is ignoring what is functionally irrelevant to the discussion.
"And NO, not every government follows this all the time." Then the Word of contradicts itself does'nt it? Whoops! There goes your ultradispensationalist rightly dividing fantasy! Why would God direct us to obey the gummint when that gummint is immoral or anti(against) Christ? Makes no sense as Tom pointed out.
DontWorryBeHappy, at least try to read Paul's writings, which DO NOT contradict the words of Jesus Christ. Here they are again for you.
Romans chapter 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
And No, posting others commentaries is NOT required here. This is the choice of individuals. And yes, people sometimes are able to write commentaries. If you want to ignore them you are risking staying ignorant.
keep in mind for the future that the idea that the Church Epistles (and this passage) were neither "revelation" nor "God-breathed"
was not meant to say (and, we presume, not meant to imply) that they should never have been written.
As is the part about it teaching "a different Christianity" than Jesus did.
The difference is unexplained, but they're not supposed to be the same.
Your decision whether or not to accept the homework assignment someone passed you.
Me, I don't even have enough time for the next few days to get a WORTHY response to the original question.
(I've read them before, from sources other than twi, and I'm sure I can find something equivalent
when I actually have time.)
I think the real focus should be on actually addressing the OP. The question sounds simple-
but the answer's pretty deep.
Not that I have the time (or energy) right now to say much, but I will say this. I'm almost surprised at times at the failure of some to more carefully consider exactly what's written.
Rather than either:
Mistakenly project what you think I said or meant, or
Mistakenly accept as gospel what someone else thinks I said or meant,
Why not simply ask for a little clarification if you're really not sure what I said or meant?
The truth is, I said exactly what I meant when I spoke of tossing out certain verses of the Pauline epistles, as though they (i.e., those certain verses) should never have been written (much less ever have been canonized and be a part of the Bible.)
I said nothing to the effect that "the Pauline letters should never have been written". Yes, some of those words are my words. But not all of them are. Three of them were intentionally (and maliciously, mind you) added to my words by DWBH.
Furthermore, I have no more interest in taking "assignments" from him, than I did from twi after the spring of 1985.
How about you (or someone) first giving a good and sensible explanation of 2Peter 3:16?
And lastly, I'm acutely aware of many differences between Paul's gospel and the gospel preached by Jesus Christ when he walked and talked with the 12.
TY TLC. It's nice to see someone still has ALL the answers regarding rightly-dividing the Bible. Maliciously?? Calm down Mr. Paranoid. Obviously you don't want to discuss. You seem to want to argue to me. Talk about a waste of time.........have a nice life
Ok guys, this is the line and two toes are on the wrong side of it. Good discussion so far. Let's keep comments about the issues being discussed and not the people discussing them.
TY TLC. It's nice to see someone still has ALL the answers regarding rightly-dividing the Bible. Maliciously?? Calm down Mr. Paranoid. Obviously you don't want to discuss. You seem to want to argue to me. Talk about a waste of time.........have a nice life
You're quite the comedian. (I never said or implied that I have ALL the answers, and I'm not in the least bit paranoid or fearful.)
As stated once already, my time is currently in short supply, and I don't care much for leading questions that have a blatant appearance of insincerity about them (such as yours.)
Especially in a doctrinal thread, which (if I understand it correctly) is designed or intended to leave aside subversive challenges to the authority (and veracity) of scripture.
The question now is who is ignoring these scriptures right after the scriptures you say the pastor quoted from? Are you ignoring them or did he or she ignore them? And NO, not every government follows this all the time. If all nations would follow this then we would not have wars between nations under their governing authorities. However, sorry, but we have had wars between nations. Do wars between nations show love and follow the below? :confused:/>
Romans chapter 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
No one ignored verses 8 and following, But that still does not help with the understanding of:
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
Really? Does anyone really think that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea are God's servants?????
My questions has nothing to do with owe no man anything but to love one another, I get that.
I am struggling with the more than apparent contradiction that there are PLENTY of governments that are NOT serving God.
This is a section of scripture that, as I sit here now, is screaming out that it has been rewritten, or added or mistranslated.
INT: them to rulers to authorities to be subject to be obedient
So, you can see that "governments" is somebody's private interpretation. Derived from "exousia" (usu tr "authority" or "power"). Now the question becomes: to which "higher powers" or "authorities" is one to be subject? The ultimate "higher power" is God himself and that is to whom we are to be subject (if we profess to be Christians - or Jewish people - can't speak for other groups!)
"For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God."
You have difficulty with this, Tom. Think about the many times in the OT that the Hebrews were warned that if they did not live according to the principles they'd been taught, they would be overrun by Amalekites, Assyrians or other marauding hordes? Were those oppressors "ordained by God" to show the Hebrews the error of their ways? Maybe! Who can fathom the mind of God? Remember, as a people, a nation, the Hebrews/ Israelites/ Jews were redeemed, time and time again. Tragic for the individuals (and their families) who were killed or captured; who knows how their faithfulness or otherwise might be treated - in eternity? What we do know is that the marauding hordes were all ultimately defeated, totally eradicated.
Somebody mentioned on this thread the millions killed in the holocaust - but the regime that did that has come to a swift end and its successor regime, modern-day Germany, is very hot in punishing anyone exhibiting those ideas now. Pol Pot's regime has ended. So has Stalin's.
Gal 5:22,23 "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" - this is what the Christian's "higher power" expects of us.
And this sort of ties in with following verses of Rom 13 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same."
Perhaps we all need to see with longer vision. Not looking just at our short-term lives on this earth, but our lives in eternity.
Looking to Jesus, "the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" - this same Jesus, subject to a cruel and barbaric set of "higher powers" in this earthly realm (both Roman and religious), and the one whose vision far exceeded the earthly life that he lived, and as a result was resurrected, and his example still exists over 2000 years later.
While you're referencing scripture, here's a couple more verses to consider. (Not that anyone in twi ever mentioned that they might be even remotely relevant to anything written in Romans...)
John.19
[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
While you're referencing scripture, here's a couple more verses to consider. (Not that anyone in twi ever mentioned that they might be even remotely relevant to anything written in Romans...)
John.19
[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
The more I read the more I am coming to the conclusion that the god of the Bible is sadistic and seems to have narcisstic tendencies.
He asks that justice be equal to the transgression, yet seems to want to exact penalities far in excess of personal transgressions.
I am slowly beginning to think that the Bible is nothing more than a book to keep people in submission to avoid all out chaos, written by men.
Tom, are you still Christian? Because Christians have struggled with these verses for centuries and I am sure you can find some explanations of these verses that will satisfy your faith if you are.
I am not, but here's something I don't think.
I don't think Jesus is blaming God for his predicament. He's not blaming a government authorized by God. Rather, he's blaming those who abuse that government for ungodly ends. The verses cited by TLC, in my opinion, do not establish God as narcissistic or sadistic.
mmmph mhmmhph hmmph hmm.
(That's me not saying what else I think because it would derail this thread. ;) )
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DontWorryBeHappy
Very easy Mr. Geiger.
Romans 13:1-7 is Pauline "revelation", most of which is not "godbreathed", and it preaches a different Christianity than its Founder, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Chew on that for awhile, remembering from whom you adopted ultradispensationalism as your underlying presumption of privately interpreting The Bible, IMO. TY.
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Twinky
And therein lies the danger of reading everything in the epistles as though it applies directly to us, now (in whatever country and political regime we find ourselves).
Wasn't this a political bit by Paul, who didn't want people falling out and getting into trouble with the super-power of the day?
It's still a good idea to avoid conflict with government bodies... but there are limits. This could be a very interesting topic to discuss.
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Rocky
NO. They are NOT. None of them are. Not even legitimate democracies.
All government systems are nothing more than different ways to organize societies and the collective power that arises from the people therein.
That said, there is wisdom in adhering to the rules and laws of society. But there can also be godly wisdom in rebelling against some in certain situations.
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TLC
Well, you're obviously going to get a variety of very opinionated responses to this, Tom. And I can't say that I'm surprised that the first batch of these want you to toss out these verses, as though they should never have been written (much less ever have been canonized and be a part of the Bible.) Still, I think it's a fair question that's merits a lot more than that kind of brush off and tossing aside.
As you probably already know or are aware, twi teaches that this section of Romans refers only to the authorities (or the authoritative structure) with the church. (Namely, or more specifically, thought and said to be "the gift ministries.") Having been indoctrinated into that same manner of thinking for many years, it wasn't that easy to more objectively (i.e., more honestly) consider other possibilities might exist for it. However, I'm more recently of the opinion that there's another way to look at it these verse that make much more sense than how twi interprets them. (I just don't have the time right now to go much further into it. The main point is, just don't be so quick to toss them aside as if they shouldn't be in the Bible, or mistakenly think that they mean whatever somebody else wants you to think they mean.)
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DontWorryBeHappy
"Very easy Mr. Geiger.
Romans 13:1-7 is Pauline "revelation", most of which is not "godbreathed", and it preaches a different Christianity than its Founder, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Chew on that for awhile, remembering from whom you adopted ultradispensationalism as your underlying presumption of privately interpreting The Bible, IMO. TY."
"Well, you're obviously going to get a variety of very opinionated responses to this, Tom. And I can't say that I'm surprised that the first batch of these want you to toss out these verses, as though they should never have been written (much less ever have been canonized and be a part of the Bible.) Still, I think it's a fair question that's merits a lot more than that kind of brush off and tossing aside."....
OK TLC.....I'll bite.
Firstly, I never wrote nor implied that the Pauline letters "should never have been written". Those are your words. They are complete misrepresentation of what I wrote. Classic example of the straw man logical fallacy if there ever was one. Nice try.......
Several questions:
1) Who actually wrote the letters attributed to Saul of Tarsus?
2) Who determined which ones were "godbreathed" enough to be considered The Word of God?
3) Who decided to canonize the Pauline letters to specific churches and/ or individuals? Who, where, and when determined that these letters were to be taken as The Word of God as much as what Jesus spoke and demonstrated?
4) when were the Pauline letters written?
5) Were the Pauline letters written before the 4 canonized gospels?
6) Do the Canonized Pauline letters contain the interpretation or "revelation" of something Jesus Christ did not know? Are THEY the source of ultradispensationalism?
TY for taking the time to consider my questions. I look forward to your replies.
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WordWolf
Ok, TLC,
keep in mind for the future that the idea that the Church Epistles (and this passage) were neither "revelation" nor "God-breathed"
was not meant to say (and, we presume, not meant to imply) that they should never have been written.
As is the part about it teaching "a different Christianity" than Jesus did.
The difference is unexplained, but they're not supposed to be the same.
Your decision whether or not to accept the homework assignment someone passed you.
Me, I don't even have enough time for the next few days to get a WORTHY response to the original question.
(I've read them before, from sources other than twi, and I'm sure I can find something equivalent
when I actually have time.)
I think the real focus should be on actually addressing the OP. The question sounds simple-
but the answer's pretty deep.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Here are the verses right before Romans 13. These verses promote being peaceful and loving to all of mankind. Sorry, but someone like Adolph Hitler would not qualify as being peaceful and loving. For his punishment it would be "Vegeance is Mine, I will repay." This will certainly be in the future judgement of mankind. However, seeing the next verses it could also be in this age.
Romans chapter 12
Behave Like a Christian
9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 Therefore
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Next we have Romans chapter 13. This is the equivalent of the police for overcoming evil in our age. Obviously, the police must have high standards of justice for all. There goal is to protect the loving and peaceful against thieves and murderers. If they don't follow high standards, obviously they need to get fired. Paul here shows confidence that they would follow high standards. Unfortunately when mixed with the scribes and pharisees, who he was a member of previously they did not with Paul's unjust death in the near future. Hence, the scribes and pharisees and nation of Israel came to an end some time after this. And so did the Roman empire. Please read this in context with verses 8, 9, and 10. And if any pastor reads verses out of context, he or she needs to be corrected.
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Love Your Neighbor
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
And one more thing. Paul's teachings are in harmony with Jesus Christ's teachings.
Mark writes this while sleep walking.
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Tom Geiger
Thank you to everyone who has replied.
There has been so much parsing of these verses and interpretations and commentaries and not one of them has ever explained how all power in government comes from God.
To me that is absolutely the most absurd explanation of these verses, unless, of course God has MPD and is, at one time, all loving, and at another a murdering, torturing entity against the "innocent".
I don't accept VPW and TWI explanation of these verses either. Saying that the authority spoken of in the verses is the authority within the church is inconsistent with the context.
Yet, there is no plausible explanation I have found to say, for instance, Stalin's authority came from God.
I agree, we are to live, as much as it is in our control, peaceably with all men. I am not looking for a reason to start a riot not do I condone anarchy. So, yes, the idea of the government of men is from God, but all governments. Sorry, can't accept that.
I agree that government of people, especially the executive branch or enforcement branch, keeps evil in check. Case in point, look what happens during blackouts or major natural disasters.
But I am really trying to understand this section of Romans.
That being said, I don't want anyone to hand feed me everything. I would be just as grateful if someone has a useful reference and can just point me to it.
Verses like this really lead me to want to research the origins of the New Testament books and see what may have been in the "origina" letters versus what we have now and how much was translated incorrectly.
Some things just seem like they wee added afterwards or are not God breathed.
Don't forget, Paul has been shown to be in error in the New Testament. We all have heard at least one explanation on how Paul was mistaken to travel to Jerusalem. But also look at his handling of John Mark and the contention he caused with Barnabas, which I believe from my reading, was in error.
Anyway, I have set these verses aside for now and cannot honestly expound on theme to anyone who asks because I cannot give a logical, coherent answer.
And Mr. Geiger was my Dad :) I am just Tom.
Thanks!
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waysider
Ya know, if you think of this as a letter that some guy wrote to a bunch of people a long time ago, in a place and culture that confounds us, about a situation whose details we really don't understand...it suddenly doesn't seem so important.
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Tom Geiger
Except when the Pastor at the church you are attending teaches on this section to hundreds of people and states that all government authority is from God.
Then it becomes extremely important.
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Mark Sanguinetti
The question now is who is ignoring these scriptures right after the scriptures you say the pastor quoted from? Are you ignoring them or did he or she ignore them? And NO, not every government follows this all the time. If all nations would follow this then we would not have wars between nations under their governing authorities. However, sorry, but we have had wars between nations. Do wars between nations show love and follow the below?
Romans chapter 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
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DontWorryBeHappy
"Next we have Romans chapter 13. This is the equivalent of the police for overcoming evil in our age. Obviously, the police must have high standards of justice for all. There goal is to protect the loving and peaceful against thieves and murderers. If they don't follow high standards, obviously they need to get fired. Paul here shows confidence that they would follow high standards".
Mark, please. Says WHO? YOU? Some commentary you read and learned somewhere? False equivalence is a logical fallacy. IMO, your "equivalent to the police for overcoming evil in our age."......is just that, a false equivalency. Dude! Are you really serious? You literally believe THAT? Please tell me. I most certainly DO NOT. Confusing or conflating the spiritual with government and politics has been proven wrong in the Bible since the Israelites picked Saul to be their King! I absolutely do not agree with your presumptuous interpretation of Romans 12 & 13. Please provide some more info when you can. TY.
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DontWorryBeHappy
"The question now is who is ignoring these scriptures right after the scriptures you say the pastor quoted from? Are you ignoring them or did he or she ignore them? And NO, not every government follows this all the time. If all nations would follow this then we would not have wars between nations under their governing authorities. However, sorry, but we have had wars between nations. Do wars between nations show love and follow the below? :confused:/>".
Whose "scriptures? Hindu? Buddhist? Islamic? Hebrew? Egyptian? Goes back to my question....." Who and what determines what is scriptura? Until that question is answered all else is dogmatic rhetoric IMO. Until "scriptures" is defined, there is no logical context to further discussion. Therefore whomever is ignoring what is functionally irrelevant to the discussion.
"And NO, not every government follows this all the time." Then the Word of contradicts itself does'nt it? Whoops! There goes your ultradispensationalist rightly dividing fantasy! Why would God direct us to obey the gummint when that gummint is immoral or anti(against) Christ? Makes no sense as Tom pointed out.
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Mark Sanguinetti
DontWorryBeHappy, at least try to read Paul's writings, which DO NOT contradict the words of Jesus Christ. Here they are again for you.
Romans chapter 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
And No, posting others commentaries is NOT required here. This is the choice of individuals. And yes, people sometimes are able to write commentaries. If you want to ignore them you are risking staying ignorant.
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TLC
Not that I have the time (or energy) right now to say much, but I will say this. I'm almost surprised at times at the failure of some to more carefully consider exactly what's written.
Rather than either:
Why not simply ask for a little clarification if you're really not sure what I said or meant?
The truth is, I said exactly what I meant when I spoke of tossing out certain verses of the Pauline epistles, as though they (i.e., those certain verses) should never have been written (much less ever have been canonized and be a part of the Bible.)
I said nothing to the effect that "the Pauline letters should never have been written". Yes, some of those words are my words. But not all of them are. Three of them were intentionally (and maliciously, mind you) added to my words by DWBH.
Furthermore, I have no more interest in taking "assignments" from him, than I did from twi after the spring of 1985.
How about you (or someone) first giving a good and sensible explanation of 2Peter 3:16?
And lastly, I'm acutely aware of many differences between Paul's gospel and the gospel preached by Jesus Christ when he walked and talked with the 12.
(It's not as unexplainable as you might think.)
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DontWorryBeHappy
TY TLC. It's nice to see someone still has ALL the answers regarding rightly-dividing the Bible. Maliciously?? Calm down Mr. Paranoid. Obviously you don't want to discuss. You seem to want to argue to me. Talk about a waste of time.........have a nice life
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Raf
Ok guys, this is the line and two toes are on the wrong side of it. Good discussion so far. Let's keep comments about the issues being discussed and not the people discussing them.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Don't worry Raf. I'm outta this thread.
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TLC
You're quite the comedian. (I never said or implied that I have ALL the answers, and I'm not in the least bit paranoid or fearful.)
As stated once already, my time is currently in short supply, and I don't care much for leading questions that have a blatant appearance of insincerity about them (such as yours.)
Especially in a doctrinal thread, which (if I understand it correctly) is designed or intended to leave aside subversive challenges to the authority (and veracity) of scripture.
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Tom Geiger
No one ignored verses 8 and following, But that still does not help with the understanding of:
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
Really? Does anyone really think that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea are God's servants?????
My questions has nothing to do with owe no man anything but to love one another, I get that.
I am struggling with the more than apparent contradiction that there are PLENTY of governments that are NOT serving God.
This is a section of scripture that, as I sit here now, is screaming out that it has been rewritten, or added or mistranslated.
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Twinky
"Governments" is a choice of word made by the translators. KJV uses "higher powers" and other versions, other descriptors.
The word "governments" or "powers" is this:
ἐξουσίαις (exousiais) — 3 OccurrencesRomans 13:1 N-DFP
GRK: Πᾶσα ψυχὴ ἐξουσίαις ὑπερεχούσαις ὑποτασσέσθω
NAS: to the governing authorities. For there is no
KJV: unto the higher powers. For
INT: Every soul to authorities above [him] let be subject
Ephesians 3:10 N-DFP
GRK: καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις ἐν τοῖς
NAS: to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly
KJV: and powers in
INT: and the authorities in the
Titus 3:1 N-DFP
GRK: αὐτοὺς ἀρχαῖς ἐξουσίαις ὑποτάσσεσθαι πειθαρχεῖν
NAS: to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient,
KJV: and powers, to obey magistrates,
INT: them to rulers to authorities to be subject to be obedient
So, you can see that "governments" is somebody's private interpretation. Derived from "exousia" (usu tr "authority" or "power"). Now the question becomes: to which "higher powers" or "authorities" is one to be subject? The ultimate "higher power" is God himself and that is to whom we are to be subject (if we profess to be Christians - or Jewish people - can't speak for other groups!)
"For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God."
You have difficulty with this, Tom. Think about the many times in the OT that the Hebrews were warned that if they did not live according to the principles they'd been taught, they would be overrun by Amalekites, Assyrians or other marauding hordes? Were those oppressors "ordained by God" to show the Hebrews the error of their ways? Maybe! Who can fathom the mind of God? Remember, as a people, a nation, the Hebrews/ Israelites/ Jews were redeemed, time and time again. Tragic for the individuals (and their families) who were killed or captured; who knows how their faithfulness or otherwise might be treated - in eternity? What we do know is that the marauding hordes were all ultimately defeated, totally eradicated.
Somebody mentioned on this thread the millions killed in the holocaust - but the regime that did that has come to a swift end and its successor regime, modern-day Germany, is very hot in punishing anyone exhibiting those ideas now. Pol Pot's regime has ended. So has Stalin's.
Gal 5:22,23 "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" - this is what the Christian's "higher power" expects of us.
And this sort of ties in with following verses of Rom 13 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same."
Perhaps we all need to see with longer vision. Not looking just at our short-term lives on this earth, but our lives in eternity.
Looking to Jesus, "the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" - this same Jesus, subject to a cruel and barbaric set of "higher powers" in this earthly realm (both Roman and religious), and the one whose vision far exceeded the earthly life that he lived, and as a result was resurrected, and his example still exists over 2000 years later.
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TLC
While you're referencing scripture, here's a couple more verses to consider. (Not that anyone in twi ever mentioned that they might be even remotely relevant to anything written in Romans...)
John.19
[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
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Tom Geiger
The more I read the more I am coming to the conclusion that the god of the Bible is sadistic and seems to have narcisstic tendencies.
He asks that justice be equal to the transgression, yet seems to want to exact penalities far in excess of personal transgressions.
I am slowly beginning to think that the Bible is nothing more than a book to keep people in submission to avoid all out chaos, written by men.
:(
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Raf
Tom, are you still Christian? Because Christians have struggled with these verses for centuries and I am sure you can find some explanations of these verses that will satisfy your faith if you are.
I am not, but here's something I don't think.
I don't think Jesus is blaming God for his predicament. He's not blaming a government authorized by God. Rather, he's blaming those who abuse that government for ungodly ends. The verses cited by TLC, in my opinion, do not establish God as narcissistic or sadistic.
mmmph mhmmhph hmmph hmm.
(That's me not saying what else I think because it would derail this thread. ;) )
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