Wierwille's "cooperation statement" makes NO MENTION of God or the mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Nevertheless, it offers up a system of submission according to ranking within twi-hierarchy.
The counterfeit and its construct......the way tree structure.
2) Cute word, purulency. Yes, twi was full of pus. And the PoP may have lanced it. But it never healed.
Of course it didn't. The infection was at every level and ran far too deep. But in hindsight... so what that it was broken up and scattered? Isn't that always what seems to happen when man gets on his high horse? (Which, we surely were. Submissive or not. It was inbred into the whole culture of twi.) And in spite of any that may have put away a good conscious concerning the right way of believing, there's only One that can and will (in the near future) gather together in one all things in Christ.
1974 -- what whacked-out contortions wierwille used to deceive the youth. Layered in "cooperation" with others.....the activities, the movement, the mission for a just cause ....and mind-numbing to the hypnotic rhythm of good intentions. Gawd, does anybody know what time it is? Does anybody really care?
Wierwille's "cooperation statement" makes NO MENTION of God or the mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Nevertheless, it offers up a system of submission according to ranking within twi-hierarchy.
The counterfeit and its construct......the way tree structure.
It may be also worth considering that being out of twi control (30 years for some of us) for so long and not dying of some awful attack from Satan really blows Loy's declaration about greasespots to smithereens.
One of our lady posters ( who I love to bits)on here was in her household 'family' when the co-ordinator noticed she wasn't eating her chillie...she wasn't because of her own whatever reason...they literally forced her to eat the daymn thing whilst gagging and dry retching...is that submission ??
submission -- the act of submitting, yielding to another for decision, yielding to the action, control, power, etc. of another or others; allow to be subjected to treatment, analysis; to defer to another's judgment or decision
Systematically and cunningly, twi had woven an intricate network of submission throughout its "way tree." From the git-go, one needed to be "tapped to the root" to receive nutrients. Gawd, it was right there.....staring me in the face!!! You (little leaf) MUST stay attached to the twig to get those "daily nutrients." You will die if you don't stay nourished (by twi). Submission was/is the operative function that powered the twi-functioning and growth.
Submission was the whole of twi.....a betrayal of self, deceptively yielding oneself to the judgments or decisions of another. It was a pseudo-christian counterfeit devised by a false teacher and COUNTERFEIT CONSTRUCT, the twig fellowship. So, no matter that we were served sweet fellowship [love-bombing] in those "innocent" twig gatherings.....it paved the way of submission to a cult. No wonder wierwille side-stepped scriptural references of "member in particular in the body of Christ".....and went with the leaf-twig-branch-limb-trunk-roots analogy....to usurp the rightful allegiance, honor and worship due to God Almighty via His son, Jesus Christ.
Red flags, red flags.....I questioned this stuff within the first few months of my involvement, and was given a blow-off answer. Crap....I saw it back then as off-kilter. The Way Tree, why? Yet, I deferred to their "spiritual judgment and discernment."
No wonder that after pfal they didn't encourage grads to go buy concordances and lexicons.....but just take the damn classes. Submission: it has ALWAYS been the staple ingredient. Not righteousness, redemption, sanctification, salvation, etc......but SUBMISSION.
Not once, EVER.....did anyone in twi ever ask/tell me, "Why don't you pray about it and see what the Father wants you to do?"
When they called on you to speak in tongues and interpret (in mtg).....YOU submitted.
When they told you all the classes needed before the advanced class....YOU submitted.
On staff, when they told you that salary was on a "needs-basis"........We submitted.
On staff, when they told us to sign that Social Security waiver........We submitted.
Yeah, I know.....submission is everywhere. But with twi, it was life, livelihood and eternal rewards
and judgment wrapped into one big chocolate sundae. I sure hope that wierwille receives his rewards. :anim-smile:/>/>
Actually, faithful grads and Way leaders encouraged lots of us at the ECU fellowship (in Greenville, NC) during 1970s to buy concordances and lexicons to study THE WORD. We were told to check out what Wierwille taught for ourselves. What a concept. The problem was we couldn't. We were too ignorant and too swept up into adoration of the "MOG" to question or think or understand his fast talking sales pitch. Also, what the leaders left out of the "tools for researching" was any consideration of the Bible as an anthology written by different people. The Bible was THE WORD OF GOD authored by God Himself and it had to fit together without contradictions. End of discussion. The Bible was not recognized for the great literature it is, only for it being "authored by God" and being the manual on how to be a human being, providing the ONLY source of truth in the whole world.
With that attitude, I learned nothing outside of the Bible that could have helped me UNDERSTAND the Bible.
That's what fundamentalism does.
So, I ended up in the so-called research department having to submit to what VPW said the Bible said, all the while gradually discovering he was not always right. Ask me anything you'd like to know about the "research team" at HQ from 1970 to 1987. I'll do my best to answer.
So back to the topic of this thread: submission. Yes, many of us submitted to the authority of VPW and other top leaders. Why? Each of us has to sort that out. I do not think we were all brainwashed. I think each of us probably weighted in at different places on scales of suggestibility and vulnerability. I know some people who NEVER thought they were manipulated into submission, that they made their own decisions in TWI. Others were more pliable. There is no one size fits all.
You know, I think there is something beautiful about being submissive to the right things. Like to someone else who has mastered a skill I want to learn. Master artists teach apprentices and those apprentices learn because of their humility and submission to the master who's spent his or her life mastering the art. But that is a topic for another day and probably another kind of website!
So back to the topic of this thread: submission. Yes, many of us submitted to the authority of VPW and other top leaders. Why? Each of us has to sort that out. I do not think we were all brainwashed. I think each of us probably weighted in at different places on scales of suggestibility and vulnerability. I know some people who NEVER thought they were manipulated into submission, that they made their own decisions in TWI. Others were more pliable. There is no one size fits all.
You know, I think there is something beautiful about being submissive to the right things. Like to someone else who has mastered a skill I want to learn. Master artists teach apprentices and those apprentices learn because of their humility and submission to the master who's spent his or her life mastering the art. But that is a topic for another day and probably another kind of website!
Yeah.....submission has its benefits in the right context (when boundaries are NOT crossed).
Mastering tennis or a golf swing from coaches and mentors is time well spent....to better your game.
BUT with twi....submission was ALL-IN, ALL-THINGS SUBMISSION of life, relationships, thought, study,
attendance, finances, etc. to stand approved before twi-leadership.
Imo....I wouldn't classify mastering an artist's skill as "submission."
There is nothing quite like untangling all the stealth concepts of a cult.
It would take a book to peel each layer off down to its core.
"Each twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing IN COOPERATION WITH
IN SUBMISSION TO its respective Branch AS EACH BRANCH IS TOSUBMIT to its
respective Limb, AS EACH LIMB IS TOSUBMIT to its respective Trunk, AS EACH TRUNK
IS TOSUBMIT to the Root of The Way."
.
In contrast, interestingly enough, to escape the spiritual abuse, the necessity is to recognize that the spiritual authority to whom you have been submitting is a false one. The first step to escape is to declare that authority as null and void in its continuing ability to influence your decisions. To escape false spiritual authority, recognize it for what it is - false. Then you are empowered to take the next step in avoiding or being aware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
This is why submission to authority was driven so hard in TWI. And why any deviation was attacked with a viciousness.
In contrast, interestingly enough, to escape the spiritual abuse, the necessity is to recognize that the spiritual authority to whom you have been submitting is a false one. The first step to escape is to declare that authority as null and void in its continuing ability to influence your decisions. To escape false spiritual authority, recognize it for what it is - false. Then you are empowered to take the next step in avoiding or being aware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
This is why submission to authority was driven so hard in TWI. And why any deviation was attacked with a viciousness.
Actually, faithful grads and Way leaders encouraged lots of us at the ECU fellowship (in Greenville, NC) during 1970s to buy concordances and lexicons to study THE WORD. We were told to check out what Wierwille taught for ourselves. What a concept. The problem was we couldn't. We were too ignorant and too swept up into adoration of the "MOG" to question or think or understand his fast talking sales pitch. Also, what the leaders left out of the "tools for researching" was any consideration of the Bible as an anthology written by different people. The Bible was THE WORD OF GOD authored by God Himself and it had to fit together without contradictions. End of discussion. The Bible was not recognized for the great literature it is, only for it being "authored by God" and being the manual on how to be a human being, providing the ONLY source of truth in the whole world.
With that attitude, I learned nothing outside of the Bible that could have helped me UNDERSTAND the Bible.
That's what fundamentalism does.
Sorry, but I just don't see it the same way, Penworks. The "sales pitch" (if you want to call it that), or attraction, went beyond something only emanating from vpw or pfal. Neither do I think the problem was not being able to check out what was taught because of some lack of consideration for the Bible as some sort of anthology written by different people. Then again, I was a religion/theology major at the time, in my third year of college, so perhaps it's not surprising that I'd see things differently. I'd already studied the JEPD theories of authorship and such. Humanities, Western Civilization, Eastern Religions, Philosophy... not counting any earlier looks into various church groups or experimenting with some of the occult or spiritualism (TM even had "group sessions" you could attend on campus.) So, by the time I crossed paths with twi and pfal, perhaps I was a little more focused on certain things than some. And yeah, by that point in time, I suppose you could (probably would) even say (have said) I was already a fundamentalist. Not a highly structured one, mind you, but there were some things I was already fully persuaded of (of which there is "no going back on.") As for my belief in God, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the truth of the Word of God, I had crossed the Rubicon. What remained "unsettled" in my mind and life (before twi), was only to see and understand how it worked and fit together.
So, I ended up in the so-called research department having to submit to what VPW said the Bible said, all the while gradually discovering he was not always right. Ask me anything you'd like to know about the "research team" at HQ from 1970 to 1987. I'll do my best to answer.
It's not clear whether you intended to say that the research department only delved into the scriptures to prove what VPW thought or said it said. Though I heard it pretty much became like that with LCM after LCM took over the presidency, I don't recall it being like that prior. There were some number of "known issues" with what was being taught, while some other things weren't taught at all because of a lack of visibility (and/or viability.)
So back to the topic of this thread: submission. Yes, many of us submitted to the authority of VPW and other top leaders. Why? Each of us has to sort that out. I do not think we were all brainwashed. I think each of us probably weighted in at different places on scales of suggestibility and vulnerability. I know some people who NEVER thought they were manipulated into submission, that they made their own decisions in TWI. Others were more pliable. There is no one size fits all.
You know, I think there is something beautiful about being submissive to the right things. Like to someone else who has mastered a skill I want to learn. Master artists teach apprentices and those apprentices learn because of their humility and submission to the master who's spent his or her life mastering the art. But that is a topic for another day and probably another kind of website!
It's not clear whether you intended to say that the research department only delved into the scriptures to prove what VPW thought or said it said. Though I heard it pretty much became like that with LCM after LCM took over the presidency, I don't recall it being like that prior. There were some number of "known issues" with what was being taught, while some other things weren't taught at all because of a lack of visibility (and/or viability.)
submission -- the act of submitting, yielding to another for decision, yielding to the action, control, power, etc. of another or others; allow to be subjected to treatment, analysis; to defer to another's judgment or decision
Systematically and cunningly, twi had woven an intricate network of submission throughout its "way tree." From the git-go, one needed to be "tapped to the root" to receive nutrients. Gawd, it was right there.....staring me in the face!!! You (little leaf) MUST stay attached to the twig to get those "daily nutrients." You will die if you don't stay nourished (by twi). Submission was/is the operative function that powered the twi-functioning and growth.
Submission was the whole of twi.....a betrayal of self, deceptively yielding oneself to the judgments or decisions of another. It was a pseudo-christian counterfeit devised by a false teacher and COUNTERFEIT CONSTRUCT, the twig fellowship. So, no matter that we were served sweet fellowship [love-bombing] in those "innocent" twig gatherings.....it paved the way of submission to a cult. No wonder wierwille side-stepped scriptural references of "member in particular in the body of Christ".....and went with the leaf-twig-branch-limb-trunk-roots analogy....to usurp the rightful allegiance, honor and worship due to God Almighty via His son, Jesus Christ.
Great post, Skyrider! I'd like to add another definition of "submission" that I found on the Internet – "yielding to a superior force". I think that brings into sharp focus what was really happening....concerning my timespan of involvement – during my early years I think of my going along with the flow of TWI life as a pleasant time – like having a courtship and honeymoon feel to it….but as time went on – it seemed like more of a militaristic atmosphere to me…eh, the "sweetness" of the married life huh!
And thanks for the link to your thread Manipulation of One's Consent … I believe in the courtship/honeymoon phase for new PFAL grads manipulation was the modus operandi for TWI leadership – and perhaps the operation being at such an imperceptible level for most young folks (and more precisely in whom critical thinking skills are usually not encouraged or developed) – the manipulative techniques also lay the groundwork for a more overt way of motivating people; seasoned PFAL grads - instead of wanting to go along with the flow of TWI life because everyone was so sweet / accepting / forgiving – we find ourselves pretty much compelled to "get with the program" whatever that may be…I remember a couple of years before going in the corps I was working the tape player for a class – and I messed up on where I should have had it cued to start….man, my branch leader really came down on me – I still remember his words to me after that session "you've been coasting for a very long while now it's time to wake up."
It seems like, in the comments I quoted above, 1) you're arguing semantics, 2) trying to claim you didn't always submit and/or that 3) it wasn't necessarily the original intent.
My impressions, however, are that despite your own possible original intent to not get caught up in the submission, you eventually did anyway.
Have you ever heard of Peter Senge? He was (is) an MIT professor. His book, The Fifth Discipline, is about learning organizations.
Wierwille's cult learned and developed alright, but not the way Senge suggests it should have. Twi adapted as it grew to become more like what VPee wanted it to be.
I also suggest insight can be gathered from Noam Chomsky and his writings on manufacturing consent.
Chomsky focuses, regarding this subject, on mass media. In twi, Wierwille controlled the media. It began with his directive in the PFLAP class to put away all of your other reading material for months.
Of course, if you stayed around that long, you were hooked and then dismissed philosophy, "world wisdom" in favor of VPee's "wisdom."
Rocky, thanks for referring to Chomsky's book Manufacturing Consent - I've had that on my amazon wish list for a long time now but forgot about it – after reading your post, I put in on my wish list again only to find out it was already on my wish list - so I marked it highest priority – which means I'll download it and read it soon; also I wanted to say you made an excellent point of how VP controlled "the media". I've shared this before how I was like a kid with a new toy after taking the class – reading the whole Bible and noting things of interest – to only be shut down by my Twig coordinator – reminding me to review PFAL material.
(snip)
...Second: The Way Tree.........At the very first niteowl in my first month in-rez, September, 1973, in the BRC after a Sunday Night Fellowship, in our PJs. It was the first night that he had a couple of Drambuie coffee cups too many and was contentedly praising himself in good humor. He began talking about what inspired ("in-spirit-action") his "revelation" of The Way Tree, which was the book by Alcoholics Anonymous which accompanied their book, "The Twelve Steps"...."The 12 Traditions" which lays out the structure and polity for every AA group. It was published in 1936 IIRC.....a year or more after "The 12 Steps". One of the first 5 includes the exact phrase, ".......self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating.....". This, said dictor paul, sparked the "revelation of The Way Tree...(snip)
Don't Worry, I always appreciate "the rest of the TWI story" in the experiences you share; I find that so funny that VP's revelation for the way tree came from Alcoholics Anonymous. Perhaps the tree of the knowledge of good ol' evil was a Drambuie Tree….just a thought.
Ever think you knew how the Way Tree was structured? Take a closer look at this description from The Way Tree syllabus from 1974. It says the OPPOSITE of what many of us always thought it said.
"Each twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing IN COOPERATION WITH its respective Branch AS EACH BRANCH IS TO its respective Limb, AS EACH LIMB IS TO its respective Trunk, AS EACH TRUNK IS TO the Root of The Way.
Self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing? Not so much.
Thanks for posting the way tree definition from the syllabus Waysider –
and i also wanted to key off your mention of "theoretical" in your post # 18 too; I had a few thoughts; the first thing that came to mind was something the German military strategist Helmuth Von Moltke said - it went something like: No battle plan survives contact with the enemy – thinking of that in the context of how TWI corralled its members, that would make any opposing thought the enemy; I've heard variations of that like – no plan survives contact with reality…
anyway I think there's something to that in terms of one way or another TWI leadership figured out how to make the Way Tree "work" or at least that it was perceived to operate by the syllabus' definition. so what is portrayed as a cooperative effort by all (the individual twigs, branches, etc. up the way tree) in reality is actually a chain of command hierarchy similar to the military.
Wierwille's "cooperation statement" makes NO MENTION of God or the mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Nevertheless, it offers up a system of submission according to ranking within twi-hierarchy.
The counterfeit and its construct......the way tree structure.
Funny you should mention Scientology. After watching Going Clear, Tonto and I have gotten into reading up on Scientology. Right now I'm finishing Inside Scientology by Janet Reitman. It is striking the similarities of the mind-F V _CK games between Scientology and TWI. I guess all abusive organizations/leaders tend to think alike.
Another thing that struck me and which I find hard to articulate is that it appears to me that there is something in human nature – in our makeup – some social aspect that can more or less (it's not one size fits all) make one susceptible to the manipulative techniques of abusive organizations/leaders – yeah, it's something that would be a target rich environment for sociologists – I'm one of those that believes people are more alike than different...
i also think there is something in human nature that desires order and organization, perhaps in view of finding an environment to thrive in...i love living in America! I try to be a good citizen; obey the laws of the land and enjoy the freedom we have in this country. with my belief that people are more alike than different - i tend to think wherever in this world you may look you will find cultures / societies...whatever that are based on some kind of governing structure...it's not a perfect world - but for people to get along there has to be some form of submission...compliance...something along those lines.
...So back to the topic of this thread: submission. Yes, many of us submitted to the authority of VPW and other top leaders. Why? Each of us has to sort that out. I do not think we were all brainwashed. I think each of us probably weighted in at different places on scales of suggestibility and vulnerability. I know some people who NEVER thought they were manipulated into submission, that they made their own decisions in TWI. Others were more pliable. There is no one size fits all.
You know, I think there is something beautiful about being submissive to the right things. Like to someone else who has mastered a skill I want to learn. Master artists teach apprentices and those apprentices learn because of their humility and submission to the master who's spent his or her life mastering the art. But that is a topic for another day and probably another kind of website!
Cheers,
Penworks
Yeah.....submission has its benefits in the right context (when boundaries are NOT crossed).
Mastering tennis or a golf swing from coaches and mentors is time well spent....to better your game.
BUT with twi....submission was ALL-IN, ALL-THINGS SUBMISSION of life, relationships, thought, study,
attendance, finances, etc. to stand approved before twi-leadership.
Imo....I wouldn't classify mastering an artist's skill as "submission."
There is nothing quite like untangling all the stealth concepts of a cult.
It would take a book to peel each layer off down to its core.
While looking up the word "submission" I came across a couple of synonyms which do cast the teacher/apprentice dynamic in a way that I'm more comfortable with; the words "humility" and "meekness". Having attended art school and later in life pursuing a technical career I've always found a modest view of my knowledge and experience has always helped me to respect and to learn from others.
In contrast, interestingly enough, to escape the spiritual abuse, the necessity is to recognize that the spiritual authority to whom you have been submitting is a false one. The first step to escape is to declare that authority as null and void in its continuing ability to influence your decisions. To escape false spiritual authority, recognize it for what it is - false. Then you are empowered to take the next step in avoiding or being aware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
This is why submission to authority was driven so hard in TWI. And why any deviation was attacked with a viciousness.
Sharp post, Chockfull ! TWI sold folks a twisted version of what the first century church should look like today; with all the talk of self-governing / self-supporting you get the idea we all were building something great together; but after a few years you step back and look at it and say yeah I built something great – it's Alcatraz.
Sorry, but I just don't see it the same way, Penworks. The "sales pitch" (if you want to call it that), or attraction, went beyond something only emanating from vpw or pfal. Neither do I think the problem was not being able to check out what was taught because of some lack of consideration for the Bible as some sort of anthology written by different people. Then again, I was a religion/theology major at the time, in my third year of college, so perhaps it's not surprising that I'd see things differently. I'd already studied the JEPD theories of authorship and such. Humanities, Western Civilization, Eastern Religions, Philosophy... not counting any earlier looks into various church groups or experimenting with some of the occult or spiritualism (TM even had "group sessions" you could attend on campus.) So, by the time I crossed paths with twi and pfal, perhaps I was a little more focused on certain things than some. And yeah, by that point in time, I suppose you could (probably would) even say (have said) I was already a fundamentalist. Not a highly structured one, mind you, but there were some things I was already fully persuaded of (of which there is "no going back on.") As for my belief in God, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the truth of the Word of God, I had crossed the Rubicon. What remained "unsettled" in my mind and life (before twi), was only to see and understand how it worked and fit together.
It's not clear whether you intended to say that the research department only delved into the scriptures to prove what VPW thought or said it said. Though I heard it pretty much became like that with LCM after LCM took over the presidency, I don't recall it being like that prior. There were some number of "known issues" with what was being taught, while some other things weren't taught at all because of a lack of visibility (and/or viability.)
Agreed.
Hi TLC,
Sure wish I'd had some other kind of education about the Scriptures like you did before getting involved in TWI. That education might have steered me away from PFAL.
I hope my story, Affinity for Windows, that Rocky pointed out, is interesting to you. The team was a mix, our jobs were varied, but in the end, to my knowledge, nothing that contradicted VPW's teachings got published.
Sure wish I'd had some other kind of education about the Scriptures like you did before getting involved in TWI. That education might have steered me away from PFAL.
I hope my story, Affinity for Windows, that Rocky pointed out, is interesting to you. The team was a mix, our jobs were varied, but in the end, to my knowledge, nothing that contradicted VPW's teachings got published.
PFAL had its own unique appeal, so even had you walked in my shoes, it may not have. (However, it probably would have changed your perspectives on things while in, and after... as there's just no getting around the fact that how we see and process life is affected by what we've done and/or experienced!)
I actually read your story some time back (I forget exactly when.) However, the majority of memories I have with the research dept. at HQ seem to have preceded your return to HQ in the summer of '84. If I recall correctly, I think Bruce M. and Joe W. had already left by or about that time (a significant loss to both the quality and integrity of the department... something which didn't make sense at the time, and I didn't "get" the reasons for. Both were tight lipped about it.) Dates and times of change blur a bit over the years, but perhaps it was an indication of where things were headed, but my loss of interest probably accounts for either not noticing or paying any attention to your arrival there. (Obviously, John S was still there, but I think Barb D. - who edited the GMIR thing after it started - also left around then. Funny, but I can't even think who else was there in '85. But then, I moved that same year...)
Publish or Perish.
Remember that line?
Well, perish it was... (especially if you published something as controversial as JS's paper on adultery... lol.)
Still, amid the misdirected and/or unpublished efforts, I seem to recall a few things (some are forgotten) that were never understood sufficiently (...I suppose that's the best way to say it) that didn't exactly "fit" with what was then being taught in the ministry. Matter of fact, my personal recollection of what "could and couldn't" be questioned, examined, or re-researched can be summed up in this: "Nothing is sacred or off limits."
Maybe that had changed by the time you returned to HQ in '84.
Great post, Skyrider! I'd like to add another definition of "submission" that I found on the Internet – "yielding to a superior force". I think that brings into sharp focus what was really happening....concerning my timespan of involvement – during my early years I think of my going along with the flow of TWI life as a pleasant time – like having a courtship and honeymoon feel to it….but as time went on – it seemed like more of a militaristic atmosphere to me…eh, the "sweetness" of the married life huh!
And thanks for the link to your thread Manipulation of One's Consent … I believe in the courtship/honeymoon phase for new PFAL grads manipulation was the modus operandi for TWI leadership – and perhaps the operation being at such an imperceptible level for most young folks (and more precisely in whom critical thinking skills are usually not encouraged or developed) – the manipulative techniques also lay the groundwork for a more overt way of motivating people; seasoned PFAL grads - instead of wanting to go along with the flow of TWI life because everyone was so sweet / accepting / forgiving – we find ourselves pretty much compelled to "get with the program" whatever that may be…
<snip>
anyway I think there's something to that in terms of one way or another TWI leadership figured out how to make the Way Tree "work" or at least that it was perceived to operate by the syllabus' definition. so what is portrayed as a cooperative effort by all (the individual twigs, branches, etc. up the way tree) in reality is actually a chain of command hierarchy similar to the military.
<snip>
Funny you should mention Scientology. After watching Going Clear, Tonto and I have gotten into reading up on Scientology. Right now I'm finishing Inside Scientology by Janet Reitman. It is striking the similarities of the mind-F V _CK games between Scientology and TWI. I guess all abusive organizations/leaders tend to think alike.
Another thing that struck me and which I find hard to articulate is that it appears to me that there is something in human nature – in our makeup – some social aspect that can more or less (it's not one size fits all) make one susceptible to the manipulative techniques of abusive organizations/leaders – yeah, it's something that would be a target rich environment for sociologists – I'm one of those that believes people are more alike than different...
T-Bone......plenty of good points. Thanks.
Yeah, the similarities of submission/manipulation in Scientology AND the 1971 hyper-submissive Sea Org
seems to chronicle same era to wierwille's corps-spiritual crack troops training.....isolation, 24/7 drill
training, compliance to all orders, no questioning, spiritual quest, no turning back, mark-avoid = disconnection,
enablers, hierarchy of insiders, etc.
Amazing to step back and recount how wierwille lauded the corps training as "a spiritual marine corps."
Translation: Follow orders or we kick you out! The schtick was.....if you can't listen and obey us,
then you'll NEVER learn to listen and follow God. And the question is WHEN? When is someone "instructed
enough" to start LISTENING, OBEYING AND FOLLOWING GOD?
Gawd, twi.....you might as well start your own "Farm Org" pppffffftttttt
"It was essentially a prison to which crew who were considered nonproducers, security risks, or just wanted to leave the Sea Org, were assigned. Hubbard's RPF policies established the conditions. RPF members were segregated and not allowed to communicate to anyone else. They had their own spaces and were not allowed in normal crew areas of the ship. They ate after normal crew had eaten, and only whatever was left over from the crew meal. Their berthing was the worst on board, in a roach-infested, filthy and unventilated cargo hold. They wore black boilersuits, even in the hottest weather. They were required to run everywhere. Discipline was harsh and bizarre, with running laps of the ship assigned for the slightest infraction like failing to address a senior with "Sir." Work was hard and the schedule rigid with seven hours' sleep time from lights out to lights on, short meal breaks, no liberties and no free time ...."
Indeed... which is why the Hulu original series "The Path" invokes twi and scientology both.
It may be also worth considering that being out of twi control (30 years for some of us) for so long and not dying of some awful attack from Satan really blows Loy's declaration about greasespots to smithereens.
Rocky, I've been out for 29 years, and life is good!! F-Craig!
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skyrider
Wierwille's "cooperation statement" makes NO MENTION of God or the mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Nevertheless, it offers up a system of submission according to ranking within twi-hierarchy.
The counterfeit and its construct......the way tree structure.
Same construct in Scientology.....Youth Submission in Scientology
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skyrider
Well, it looks like I addressed wierwille's AA-construct (the way tree -- ie twig fellowship)
and its "twelve step program" in a thread years ago. Twelve step program
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TLC
Of course it didn't. The infection was at every level and ran far too deep. But in hindsight... so what that it was broken up and scattered? Isn't that always what seems to happen when man gets on his high horse? (Which, we surely were. Submissive or not. It was inbred into the whole culture of twi.) And in spite of any that may have put away a good conscious concerning the right way of believing, there's only One that can and will (in the near future) gather together in one all things in Christ.
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Rocky
Indeed... which is why the Hulu original series "The Path" invokes twi and scientology both.
It may be also worth considering that being out of twi control (30 years for some of us) for so long and not dying of some awful attack from Satan really blows Loy's declaration about greasespots to smithereens.
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skyrider
Yeah.....but twi has a spin-answer for that little factoid of non-submission:
"If you don't see the devil coming at you, then maybe you're walking with him."
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skyrider
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shortfuse
Kind of ironic how TWI bashed AA. I don't know if Vic did but the Craiggers sure did.
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Allan
One of our lady posters ( who I love to bits)on here was in her household 'family' when the co-ordinator noticed she wasn't eating her chillie...she wasn't because of her own whatever reason...they literally forced her to eat the daymn thing whilst gagging and dry retching...is that submission ??
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skyrider
In twi......submission via the way tree was nothing short of blatant EXPLOITATION.
Whereas, in life......subordination is a two-way street, beneficial BOTH WAYS.
In business and career, you "pay your dues" in subordination towards advancement and bigger paychecks.
In sports, the coach and front office help the team to win championships....and bonuses, for all.
In a cult......the longer you stay, they purposely suck your life and livelihood dry.
Wierwille, at age 51.....filmed pfal in 1967 to construct a class-based outreach ministry that was headquartered
at his family homestead (1881..?). From this rural outpost, wierwille positioned himself as The Teacher.
Did wierwille EVER give of his time, energy, or expense from his own pocket to help others? NO.
Did wierwille EVER subordinate himself to others for years or decades? NOPE.
I have said this before.....even after pfal, I was not all that impressed by wierwille. The "biblical research"
model was what interested me and I thought that A TEAM OF RESEARCHERS would move beyond wierwille-persona.
The way tree structure, wherein the roots were sustained by toxic riverbeds of lust, greed, and exploitation
is ANOTHER ONE of wierwille's lasting legacies.......ppffffttt.
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skyrider
When wierwille claimed that "he studied nothing but the word for 12 years (gist)"....
wierwille was on CHURCH PAYROLL.
See.....he makes it look like he is a benevolent giver to help others, but really
he was searching for ways to advance his power and control.
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WordWolf
Right- interesting disconnect.
He never went into any sort of PROGRAM where you learn from others.
He never went into any sort of PROGRAM where you help others.
He never set up any sort of volunteer time or programs locally to help others.
He never set up any INFORMAL project where he "apprenticed" under others
(for lack of a better word.)
He refused all possibilities of learning to help others, to learn in
leadership programs- then, with his LACK of experience, he insisted
others learn those things from him. Looking back, his IGNORANCE of
both subjects is blatant, with a wealth of obvious, easy-to-fix problems
at the dawn of each program-many of which were never fixed.
How easy were they to fix? I could have fixed them at age 23. By then,
I had experience with leadership and service programs- and didn't make
mistakes that vpw made at TWICE my age. Then again, I actually wanted to
HELP people. That makes a big difference.
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penworks
Hi GreaseSpotters.
Actually, faithful grads and Way leaders encouraged lots of us at the ECU fellowship (in Greenville, NC) during 1970s to buy concordances and lexicons to study THE WORD. We were told to check out what Wierwille taught for ourselves. What a concept. The problem was we couldn't. We were too ignorant and too swept up into adoration of the "MOG" to question or think or understand his fast talking sales pitch. Also, what the leaders left out of the "tools for researching" was any consideration of the Bible as an anthology written by different people. The Bible was THE WORD OF GOD authored by God Himself and it had to fit together without contradictions. End of discussion. The Bible was not recognized for the great literature it is, only for it being "authored by God" and being the manual on how to be a human being, providing the ONLY source of truth in the whole world.
With that attitude, I learned nothing outside of the Bible that could have helped me UNDERSTAND the Bible.
That's what fundamentalism does.
So, I ended up in the so-called research department having to submit to what VPW said the Bible said, all the while gradually discovering he was not always right. Ask me anything you'd like to know about the "research team" at HQ from 1970 to 1987. I'll do my best to answer.
So back to the topic of this thread: submission. Yes, many of us submitted to the authority of VPW and other top leaders. Why? Each of us has to sort that out. I do not think we were all brainwashed. I think each of us probably weighted in at different places on scales of suggestibility and vulnerability. I know some people who NEVER thought they were manipulated into submission, that they made their own decisions in TWI. Others were more pliable. There is no one size fits all.
You know, I think there is something beautiful about being submissive to the right things. Like to someone else who has mastered a skill I want to learn. Master artists teach apprentices and those apprentices learn because of their humility and submission to the master who's spent his or her life mastering the art. But that is a topic for another day and probably another kind of website!
Cheers,
Penworks
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skyrider
Yeah.....submission has its benefits in the right context (when boundaries are NOT crossed).
Mastering tennis or a golf swing from coaches and mentors is time well spent....to better your game.
BUT with twi....submission was ALL-IN, ALL-THINGS SUBMISSION of life, relationships, thought, study,
attendance, finances, etc. to stand approved before twi-leadership.
Imo....I wouldn't classify mastering an artist's skill as "submission."
There is nothing quite like untangling all the stealth concepts of a cult.
It would take a book to peel each layer off down to its core.
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chockfull
In contrast, interestingly enough, to escape the spiritual abuse, the necessity is to recognize that the spiritual authority to whom you have been submitting is a false one. The first step to escape is to declare that authority as null and void in its continuing ability to influence your decisions. To escape false spiritual authority, recognize it for what it is - false. Then you are empowered to take the next step in avoiding or being aware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
This is why submission to authority was driven so hard in TWI. And why any deviation was attacked with a viciousness.
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Twinky
Well said, Chocky.
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TLC
Sorry, but I just don't see it the same way, Penworks. The "sales pitch" (if you want to call it that), or attraction, went beyond something only emanating from vpw or pfal. Neither do I think the problem was not being able to check out what was taught because of some lack of consideration for the Bible as some sort of anthology written by different people. Then again, I was a religion/theology major at the time, in my third year of college, so perhaps it's not surprising that I'd see things differently. I'd already studied the JEPD theories of authorship and such. Humanities, Western Civilization, Eastern Religions, Philosophy... not counting any earlier looks into various church groups or experimenting with some of the occult or spiritualism (TM even had "group sessions" you could attend on campus.) So, by the time I crossed paths with twi and pfal, perhaps I was a little more focused on certain things than some. And yeah, by that point in time, I suppose you could (probably would) even say (have said) I was already a fundamentalist. Not a highly structured one, mind you, but there were some things I was already fully persuaded of (of which there is "no going back on.") As for my belief in God, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the truth of the Word of God, I had crossed the Rubicon. What remained "unsettled" in my mind and life (before twi), was only to see and understand how it worked and fit together.
It's not clear whether you intended to say that the research department only delved into the scriptures to prove what VPW thought or said it said. Though I heard it pretty much became like that with LCM after LCM took over the presidency, I don't recall it being like that prior. There were some number of "known issues" with what was being taught, while some other things weren't taught at all because of a lack of visibility (and/or viability.)
Agreed.
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Rocky
Or several books.
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Rocky
In prior posts on GSC, Charlene has mentioned her essay, Affinity for Windows, which is a memoir. It at least begins to address that question. Affinity for Windows is also posted on the main page of the GSC website (not the forums).
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T-Bone
Great post, Skyrider! I'd like to add another definition of "submission" that I found on the Internet – "yielding to a superior force". I think that brings into sharp focus what was really happening....concerning my timespan of involvement – during my early years I think of my going along with the flow of TWI life as a pleasant time – like having a courtship and honeymoon feel to it….but as time went on – it seemed like more of a militaristic atmosphere to me…eh, the "sweetness" of the married life huh!
And thanks for the link to your thread Manipulation of One's Consent … I believe in the courtship/honeymoon phase for new PFAL grads manipulation was the modus operandi for TWI leadership – and perhaps the operation being at such an imperceptible level for most young folks (and more precisely in whom critical thinking skills are usually not encouraged or developed) – the manipulative techniques also lay the groundwork for a more overt way of motivating people; seasoned PFAL grads - instead of wanting to go along with the flow of TWI life because everyone was so sweet / accepting / forgiving – we find ourselves pretty much compelled to "get with the program" whatever that may be…I remember a couple of years before going in the corps I was working the tape player for a class – and I messed up on where I should have had it cued to start….man, my branch leader really came down on me – I still remember his words to me after that session "you've been coasting for a very long while now it's time to wake up."
Rocky, thanks for referring to Chomsky's book Manufacturing Consent - I've had that on my amazon wish list for a long time now but forgot about it – after reading your post, I put in on my wish list again only to find out it was already on my wish list - so I marked it highest priority – which means I'll download it and read it soon; also I wanted to say you made an excellent point of how VP controlled "the media". I've shared this before how I was like a kid with a new toy after taking the class – reading the whole Bible and noting things of interest – to only be shut down by my Twig coordinator – reminding me to review PFAL material.
Don't Worry, I always appreciate "the rest of the TWI story" in the experiences you share; I find that so funny that VP's revelation for the way tree came from Alcoholics Anonymous. Perhaps the tree of the knowledge of good ol' evil was a Drambuie Tree….just a thought.
Thanks for posting the way tree definition from the syllabus Waysider –
and i also wanted to key off your mention of "theoretical" in your post # 18 too; I had a few thoughts; the first thing that came to mind was something the German military strategist Helmuth Von Moltke said - it went something like: No battle plan survives contact with the enemy – thinking of that in the context of how TWI corralled its members, that would make any opposing thought the enemy; I've heard variations of that like – no plan survives contact with reality…
anyway I think there's something to that in terms of one way or another TWI leadership figured out how to make the Way Tree "work" or at least that it was perceived to operate by the syllabus' definition. so what is portrayed as a cooperative effort by all (the individual twigs, branches, etc. up the way tree) in reality is actually a chain of command hierarchy similar to the military.
Funny you should mention Scientology. After watching Going Clear, Tonto and I have gotten into reading up on Scientology. Right now I'm finishing Inside Scientology by Janet Reitman. It is striking the similarities of the mind-F V _CK games between Scientology and TWI. I guess all abusive organizations/leaders tend to think alike.
Another thing that struck me and which I find hard to articulate is that it appears to me that there is something in human nature – in our makeup – some social aspect that can more or less (it's not one size fits all) make one susceptible to the manipulative techniques of abusive organizations/leaders – yeah, it's something that would be a target rich environment for sociologists – I'm one of those that believes people are more alike than different...
i also think there is something in human nature that desires order and organization, perhaps in view of finding an environment to thrive in...i love living in America! I try to be a good citizen; obey the laws of the land and enjoy the freedom we have in this country. with my belief that people are more alike than different - i tend to think wherever in this world you may look you will find cultures / societies...whatever that are based on some kind of governing structure...it's not a perfect world - but for people to get along there has to be some form of submission...compliance...something along those lines.
Going Clear
Inside Scientology
While looking up the word "submission" I came across a couple of synonyms which do cast the teacher/apprentice dynamic in a way that I'm more comfortable with; the words "humility" and "meekness". Having attended art school and later in life pursuing a technical career I've always found a modest view of my knowledge and experience has always helped me to respect and to learn from others.
submission synonyms
Sharp post, Chockfull ! TWI sold folks a twisted version of what the first century church should look like today; with all the talk of self-governing / self-supporting you get the idea we all were building something great together; but after a few years you step back and look at it and say yeah I built something great – it's Alcatraz.
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penworks
Hi TLC,
Sure wish I'd had some other kind of education about the Scriptures like you did before getting involved in TWI. That education might have steered me away from PFAL.
I hope my story, Affinity for Windows, that Rocky pointed out, is interesting to you. The team was a mix, our jobs were varied, but in the end, to my knowledge, nothing that contradicted VPW's teachings got published.
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TLC
PFAL had its own unique appeal, so even had you walked in my shoes, it may not have. (However, it probably would have changed your perspectives on things while in, and after... as there's just no getting around the fact that how we see and process life is affected by what we've done and/or experienced!)
I actually read your story some time back (I forget exactly when.) However, the majority of memories I have with the research dept. at HQ seem to have preceded your return to HQ in the summer of '84. If I recall correctly, I think Bruce M. and Joe W. had already left by or about that time (a significant loss to both the quality and integrity of the department... something which didn't make sense at the time, and I didn't "get" the reasons for. Both were tight lipped about it.) Dates and times of change blur a bit over the years, but perhaps it was an indication of where things were headed, but my loss of interest probably accounts for either not noticing or paying any attention to your arrival there. (Obviously, John S was still there, but I think Barb D. - who edited the GMIR thing after it started - also left around then. Funny, but I can't even think who else was there in '85. But then, I moved that same year...)
Publish or Perish.
Remember that line?
Well, perish it was... (especially if you published something as controversial as JS's paper on adultery... lol.)
Still, amid the misdirected and/or unpublished efforts, I seem to recall a few things (some are forgotten) that were never understood sufficiently (...I suppose that's the best way to say it) that didn't exactly "fit" with what was then being taught in the ministry. Matter of fact, my personal recollection of what "could and couldn't" be questioned, examined, or re-researched can be summed up in this: "Nothing is sacred or off limits."
Maybe that had changed by the time you returned to HQ in '84.
But, if so, it wasn't always so.
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skyrider
T-Bone......plenty of good points. Thanks.
Yeah, the similarities of submission/manipulation in Scientology AND the 1971 hyper-submissive Sea Org
seems to chronicle same era to wierwille's corps-spiritual crack troops training.....isolation, 24/7 drill
training, compliance to all orders, no questioning, spiritual quest, no turning back, mark-avoid = disconnection,
enablers, hierarchy of insiders, etc.
Amazing to step back and recount how wierwille lauded the corps training as "a spiritual marine corps."
Translation: Follow orders or we kick you out! The schtick was.....if you can't listen and obey us,
then you'll NEVER learn to listen and follow God. And the question is WHEN? When is someone "instructed
enough" to start LISTENING, OBEYING AND FOLLOWING GOD?
Gawd, twi.....you might as well start your own "Farm Org" pppffffftttttt
Sea Org
"It was essentially a prison to which crew who were considered nonproducers, security risks, or just wanted to leave the Sea Org, were assigned. Hubbard's RPF policies established the conditions. RPF members were segregated and not allowed to communicate to anyone else. They had their own spaces and were not allowed in normal crew areas of the ship. They ate after normal crew had eaten, and only whatever was left over from the crew meal. Their berthing was the worst on board, in a roach-infested, filthy and unventilated cargo hold. They wore black boilersuits, even in the hottest weather. They were required to run everywhere. Discipline was harsh and bizarre, with running laps of the ship assigned for the slightest infraction like failing to address a senior with "Sir." Work was hard and the schedule rigid with seven hours' sleep time from lights out to lights on, short meal breaks, no liberties and no free time ...."
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, I've been out for 29 years, and life is good!! F-Craig!
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