Systematically and cunningly, twi had woven an intricate network of submission throughout its "way tree." From the git-go, one needed to be "tapped to the root" to receive nutrients.
Yeah, the tree thing was pretty jacked up, as mentioned other places already.
(But,it wasn't always that way or from the "git-go.")
No wonder that after pfal they didn't encourage grads to go buy concordances and lexicons...
And it wasn't always like that either.
Not once, EVER.....did anyone in twi ever ask/tell me, "Why don't you pray about it and see what the Father wants you to do?"
Seems like we must have lived in different eras, or parts of the country, or something...
When they called on you to speak in tongues and interpret (in mtg).....YOU submitted.
yeah, but there was a time when most of these manifestations were done on a "first to get to it" request.
If you didn't care or really want to, you just didn't.
When they told you all the classes needed before the advanced class....YOU submitted.
Well, there were exceptions. (It's a fact, as I was one...)
On staff, when they told you that salary was on a "needs-basis"........We submitted.
On staff, when they told us to sign that Social Security waiver........We submitted.
But yes, I did do both of the above.
Yeah, I know.....submission is everywhere.
Indeed it is. And I'm not denying that manipulation is also everywhere around us. We just have to learn to recognize and deal with where there are (or were) heavier concentrations of it.
But to further clarify, I meant "the way tree" wasn't from the git-go.
(and not that I think the tree thing was okay at first, but that later it got screwed up. "It" was jacked up from its inception... which to me appears to reflect an attempt of vpw to model things after the way the early church might have operated in Jerusalem, and not after what is depicted in the Pauline epistles.)
Yeah, the tree thing was pretty jacked up, as mentioned other places already.
(But,it wasn't always that way or from the "git-go.")
And it wasn't always like that either.
Seems like we must have lived in different eras, or parts of the country, or something...
yeah, but there was a time when most of the manifestation were done on a "first to get to it" order.
If you didn't care or really want to, you just didn't.
Well, there were exceptions. (It's a fact, as I was one...)
But yes, I did do both of the above.
Indeed it is. And I'm not denying that manipulation is also everywhere around us. We just have to learn to recognize and deal with where there are (or were) heavier concentrations of it.
It seems like, in the comments I quoted above, 1) you're arguing semantics, 2) trying to claim you didn't always submit and/or that 3) it wasn't necessarily the original intent.
My impressions, however, are that despite your own possible original intent to not get caught up in the submission, you eventually did anyway.
Have you ever heard of Peter Senge? He was (is) an MIT professor. His book, The Fifth Discipline, is about learning organizations.
Wierwille's cult learned and developed alright, but not the way Senge suggests it should have. Twi adapted as it grew to become more like what VPee wanted it to be.
I also suggest insight can be gathered from Noam Chomsky and his writings on manufacturing consent.
Chomsky focuses, regarding this subject, on mass media. In twi, Wierwille controlled the media. It began with his directive in the PFLAP class to put away all of your other reading material for months.
Of course, if you stayed around that long, you were hooked and then dismissed philosophy, "world wisdom" in favor of VPee's "wisdom."
It seems like, in the comments I quoted above, 1) you're arguing semantics, 2) trying to claim you didn't always submit and/or that 3) it wasn't necessarily the original intent.
No, I simply think that many times things here are looked at and/or stated in the extremes.
My impressions, however, are that despite your own possible original intent to not get caught up in the submission, you eventually did anyway.
I don't think that anyone associated with it, either in similar fashion to, or for as long as I was, wasn't changed in one way or another as a result. In short, it's not likely that we would be who or what we are today had we not been. And, not unlike other trying events or situations in life, where we end up and/or the "lenses" that use to view life with varies from person to person. In spite of all the issues, problems or difficulties, I can look back on some number of things and see where God worked with me, in spite of many good/bad situations and/or my own strengths, shortcomings and/or failures.
There's no question that there are a lot of things to "stew" over. But facts are facts, and they're not just semantics. And just because some people seemed to bow down and kiss the ring of certain ministry leadership, doesn't mean that everyone else did likewise and worshipped the ground that vpw walked on (either at the beginning or at the end), nor does it mean that some psychoanalyst somewhere can now paint everyone with the same stroke of the brush and/or "wash" everyone clean with some offering of philosophical wisdom or miracle detergent.
It began with his directive in the PFLAP class to put away all of your other reading material for months.
And read what? TWI's material?
You bumped your head if you think that.
It was to read the Pauline epistles.
But how many people do you think actually did that?
None, that I knew or ever heard of...
Of course, if you stayed around that long, you were hooked and then dismissed philosophy, "world wisdom" in favor of VPee's "wisdom."
Again, to see it only (or merely) as "always opposed, and always one or the other" pushes that to the very extreme edge of reason or sanity... something which I honestly suspect very few actually did. And where does the "wisdom of God" enter that picture? Is there never any room or option for it?
No, I simply think that many times things here are looked at and/or stated in the extremes.
I don't think that anyone associated with it, either in similar fashion to, or for as long as I was, wasn't changed in one way or another as a result. In short, it's not likely that we would be who or what we are today had we not been. And, not unlike other trying events or situations in life, where we end up and/or the "lenses" that use to view life with varies from person to person. In spite of all the issues, problems or difficulties, I can look back on some number of things and see where God worked with me, in spite of many good/bad situations and/or my own strengths, shortcomings and/or failures.
There's no question that there are a lot of things to "stew" over. But facts are facts, and they're not just semantics. And just because some people seemed to bow down and kiss the ring of certain ministry leadership, doesn't mean that everyone else did likewise and worshipped the ground that vpw walked on (either at the beginning or at the end), nor does it mean that some psychoanalyst somewhere can now paint everyone with the same stroke of the brush and/or "wash" everyone clean with some offering of philosophical wisdom or miracle detergent.
And read what? TWI's material?
You bumped your head if you think that.
It was to read the Pauline epistles.
But how many people do you think actually did that?
None, that I knew or ever heard of...
Again, to see it only (or merely) as "always opposed, and always one or the other" pushes that to the very extreme edge of reason or sanity... something which I honestly suspect very few actually did. And where does the "wisdom of God" enter that picture? Is there never any room or option for it?
If you don't remember Wierwille's demand (suggestion? encouragement? or however you want to characterize it) to stop reading anything but the Word according to Victor, I don't know what to tell you.
The younger people who more recently rejected Wierwillism/fundamentalism have stated unequivocally that the current interpretation is that the only approved reading material are "the collaterals."
As much as you seem to be saying that I or others (like skyrider) are suggesting everything was either/or aka black/white, I don't see it that way.
Group cohesion was absolutely dependent on submission, as the premise for this thread suggests. But of course there were degrees of submission and rebellion.
VPee tamped down rebellion whenever it reared its ugly (to him) head... which was any time anyone dared to openly challenge ANY of his ideas, any of his plans, any of his actions, any of his words.
As a young adult, I didn't look at it that way either. But I can look back and see it in the rear view mirror with extreme clarity.
I was in residence with the 9th corpse for the first year. The interim year was problematic for me. I ended up splitting from Ft. Dodge, IA at Christmas time and high tailed it back to Arizona, where I moped for several months, not attending any fellowships. Following a phone call out of the blue from a 7th corpse fellow I knew, I reconnected with way believers and attended fellowships. Eventually, I went out wow during the 11th corpse interim year. My family coordinator was 11th corpse.
He was all about demanding submission. Yet, the little "success" we had in proselytizing that year was a result of my resistance to that demand. After that year, I returned to AZ started back to college, graduating from AZ State in 86.
I've shared other aspects of my experience elsewhere on gsc, including that my college studies (accounting major) she light on my study of Acts. I realized how bass ackwards twi's accountability structure was. That prepared me for kissing the whole cult buh bye when the big exodus occurred.
So, yes, I know that not everybody who fellowshipped with twi believers got caught up in the submission to the same degree. That doesn't change obvious intent of Wierwille's organizational structure.
You want submission examples? O.K., here goes. (I've posted this before in the course of other discussions.) This incident took place in approximately 1977.
While I was involved in FellowLaborers of Ohio (a 2 year, in-residence training program), we received notification at our housing units to report to the state headquarters immediately. We were given an arrival time frame that was physically impossible to meet. I don't remember the exact directive but it was something along the lines of "Be here in 20 minutes.", even though we were at a location that was a 30 minute drive away. (I'm simplifying this a bit to speed it along.) As we arrived (there were about 50 of us.) we were told to enter the BRC and remain silent. No talking allowed. We sat there in the dark room (it was during the early morning hours.), silently waiting for the emergency meeting to begin. It seemed like an eternity though it was probably more like 20 or 30 minutes. Finally, the limb leader took his position at the front of the room. He proceeded to chastise us for our tardiness. Next, he informed us that, because of our negative believing and lack of commitment, the ministry goal of Word Over The World was in serious jeopardy. It was especially grievous because we were in Ohio, the birthplace of The Way and our negativity was dragging down the worldwide effort. We had absolutely no idea what we could have done wrong. We were not to speak or ask questions.
As a result, the program was, at that very moment, being cancelled. We were to return to our housing units and begin to disperse in the morning. People had come from hundreds, even thousands of miles away to be a part of the program. It was quite a blow. When morning came (5:30 AM) we met one last time as a group, just as we did every morning. It was at that meeting that we were told we were being given one more chance to make the program work, on the condition that we, from that point forward, do exactly as we were told, when we were told, without questioning. Much later, of course, I learned on GSC that the same scenario was being played out at what seems to have been the same time in the Way Corps. It was all a staged charade, designed to insure our submission.
Does that speak sufficiently to the issue being examined?
Edited to note: Some of these die-hard cats you see on facebook, praising the wonders of VP and the glory days came from this exact same group and may have even occupied the very chair next to me at that meeting.
Excellent discussion Rocky< Skyrider, TLC, and all. TY all. my 10 1/2 cents follow.......
First.....Submission. Skyrider, I think you were spot on regarding submission being required in order to make the same decision to acquiesce to the increasingly self-serving demands of the Board of Terrorists (hereinafter referred to as the BOT) despite intuitive "gut feelings" telling us to get the hell outta there. However, submission is only one part of a 2-part equation. And, it is required in what turns out to be a social and interpersonal contract between minister and congregation, on the part of that congregation ( WOWS, corpses, staff, etc.)......the minister's part of that equation, IMO, is OPPRESSION. In order for us loyal and faithful congregants to continue to remain an integral part of what we believed to be a God-given calling, we made the free will decision to acquiesce (submit) to the continueingly intrusive and oppressive demands made by da forehead and the BOT in order to try to reform or at least bring it back to before the dancing prez began his self-deluded, paranoiac narcissistic destruction of not only the way, but its most loyal followers as well. He remains deluded and unrepentant to this day as do Rivenbark and Lombardi.
Second: The Way Tree.........At the very first niteowl in my first month in-rez, September, 1973, in the BRC after a Sunday Night Fellowship, in our PJs. It was the first night that he had a couple of Drambuie coffee cups too many and was contentedly praising himself in good humor. He began talking about what inspired ("in-spirit-action") his "revelation" of The Way Tree, which was the book by Alcoholics Anonymous which accompanied their book, "The Twelve Steps"...."The 12 Traditions" which lays out the structure and polity for every AA group. It was published in 1936 IIRC.....a year or more after "The 12 Steps". One of the first 5 includes the exact phrase, ".......self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating.....". This, said dictor paul, sparked the "revelation of The Way Tree, BUT.....UNLIKE TLC's claim that it was modeled after The Book of Acts, it was modeled after the Gospels and several of those "red-letter" verses that we weren't to ever think were TO US.....i.e., ultradispensationalism is the underlying presumed "rightly divided understanding" of such verses a la Ethelbert. It was based on the parables of the good tree and bad tree producing its corresponding fruit, and that the fruit would be the means "by which ye shall know them......ye shall know them by their fruit"), and the parable of the vines and branches. The total transition to Ethelbert's series of teachings and his margin notes throughout the Book of Acts, in his Companion Bible, which include THE EIGHT GREAT STATEMENTS, was an integral part of da forehead's corpse graduation research project. The 2nd corpse graduated in August, 1973. Townsend taped The Way Tree class in 1972, the year of the great TWIt putsch which dissolved The Way West and The Way East into the infected bowels of wierwilleism. The grand shift to ultradispensationalism along with the Book of Acts becoming the god-breathed model for The Way Tree "revelation", and the elevation of all things Pauline climaxing with Ephesians as the end all and be all of Christian Faith, was accomplished by da forehead and falter cummins, who was da forehead's research advisor. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with dictor's "original revelation" nor scriptural back-up regarding The Way Tree.
Third: "And read what? TWI's material?
You bumped your head if you think that.
It was to read the Pauline epistles.
But how many people do you think actually did that?
None, that I knew or ever heard of.."
The emphasis on the Pauline Epistles, IMO, IS NOT what dictor refers to when he exhorts all piffle students to put aside all other reading materials besides "The Word" for three months and note the tremendous changes that will occur as a result of "understanding and applying the rightly-divided word of God". He is referring to the entire KJV, Old and New Testaments.
TLC, I strongly disagree with your opinion regarding that piffle statement to mean the Pauline Epistles, nor do I agree with the ultradispensationalist misinterpretation of Bullinger and Welch which must be presumed in order for any TWIt theology to "fit like a hand in a glove". I believe their interpretation of the Pauline writings is both misguided and misleading. The writings of Bullinger and Welch provide the ENTIRE basis of all TWIt theology, which i believe to be as misleading and misguided as ultradispensationalism. The ONLY "original research" into the Pauline New Testament, including falter's time at The Institute of New Testament Research during that year he spent Germany, is textually unproveable or nonexistent.
It was all to prove whatever dictor told falter gawd told him directly what a verse "literally" said or meant and that "there has to be a text somewhere that has it right". Your job is to find eet!
Thanks for reading. I look forward to continued discussion of an interesting topic and thread...............peace.
Submission? You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK!
You have any thought of your own - any suggestion about how something (even something incredibly minor) could be done better - YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO THE WORD. YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO LEADERSHIP. You are prideful and worldly (or carnal) in your thoughts. You have got to be MEEK! And with everyone tattle-taling on the slightest aberration - oh yes, we'll enforce meekness upon you.
How many threads have we had about "face melting"? What's that about? It's about not being meek. It's about terrorising the "meltee" into submission.
Oh yes. Bullying into submission was an art form in TWI.
All done in love, of course (cough, choke). :mad2:/>
Second: The Way Tree.........At the very first niteowl in my first month in-rez, September, 1973, in the BRC after a Sunday Night Fellowship, in our PJs. It was the first night that he had a couple of Drambuie coffee cups too many and was contentedly praising himself in good humor. He began talking about what inspired ("in-spirit-action") his "revelation" of The Way Tree, which was the book by Alcoholics Anonymous which accompanied their book, "The Twelve Steps"...."The 12 Traditions" which lays out the structure and polity for every AA group. It was published in 1936 IIRC.....a year or more after "The 12 Steps". One of the first 5 includes the exact phrase, ".......self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating.....". This, said dictor paul, sparked the "revelation of The Way Tree,...
Despite whatever it may say in the Way Tree syllabus, the twig was never self governing. Rules and regulation for operational procedure were generated from the mother ship in New Knockwurst, Ohio. Sing songs from Way approved sources, with Way approved lyrics. Exercise the manifestations in a manner that has been prescribed by the same mother ship. Expound on materials whose contents have been approved for presentation by...well, you know. Oh, don't forget to have a "love offering" and collect the tithes. (Boredom could have been minimized had we skipped to the final step at the onset.)
And, I think we all know by now that the twig was never intended to be self supporting. (Perhaps in another post I'll expound on an incident that demonstrates a specific example of this.) Except for some limited occasions in the early days, twigs were NOT to have car washes or any other similar activity to generate revenue that would be used at the local level or help support a believer in need. Money traveled a one-way street in The Way. Strict adherence was mandatory.
If you were ever involved in an HQ mandated "twig split" or simply decided to become part of a twig that was not the one to which you were assigned you found out rather quickly that any "self" propagating that took place was strategically governed by sources beyond the twig, itself. If you don't like the twig you're in, tough, renew your mind.
Second: The Way Tree............At the very first niteowl in my first month in-rez, September, 1973, in the BRC after a Sunday Night Fellowship, in our PJs. It was the first night that he had a couple of Drambuie coffee cups too many and was contentedly praising himself in good humor. He began talking about what inspired ("in-spirit-action") his "revelation" of The Way Tree, which was the book by Alcoholics Anonymous which accompanied their book, "The Twelve Steps"...."The 12 Traditions" which lays out the structure and polity for every AA group. It was published in 1936 IIRC.....a year or more after "The 12 Steps". One of the first 5 includes the exact phrase, ".......self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating.....".
lol... how clever of him. Thank you for the added insight.
He sure was into the "tradition" thing (as long as he laid out exactly what the right traditions were...)
This, said dictor paul, sparked the "revelation of The Way Tree, BUT.....UNLIKE TLC's claim that it was modeled after The Book of Acts, it was modeled after the Gospels and several of those "red-letter" verses that we weren't to ever think were TO US.....i.e., ultradispensationalism is the underlying presumed "rightly divided understanding" of such verses a la Ethelbert. It was based on the parables of the good tree and bad tree producing its corresponding fruit, and that the fruit would be the means "by which ye shall know them......ye shall know them by their fruit"), and the parable of the vines and branches. The total transition to Ethelbert's series of teachings and his margin notes throughout the Book of Acts, in his Companion Bible, which include THE EIGHT GREAT STATEMENTS, was an integral part of da forehead's corpse graduation research project.
Well, if you were to look at what I said previously and consider it a little more carefully, I think you actually just added a lot of support and give much more credence to it. (Which, you'll no doubt want a further explanation of.)
For starters, I didn't say that I thought he modeled it after the Book of Acts. I poignantly and specifically said that it appeared to me to "reflect an attempt of vpw to model things after the way the early church might have operated in Jerusalem, and not after what is depicted in the Pauline epistles." What I didn't expound upon (but mustn't be overlooked) is how the apostles that were in Jerusalem might have controlled and directed their ministry outreach program to all of Israel, and/or how it may have been so greatly different from Paul's. Considering that I believe there were two gospels involved in the Book of Acts, I strongly oppose any effort to blenderize them together into one (which in effect, is what most of Christendom seems intent on doing.)
Furthermore, as I recall it (and if I have this right), Bullinger himself didn't think the modern church age started on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. He put it after the close of Acts 28. (Which is the primary difference between dispensationalists and Bullingner's ultradispensationalism.) Personally, I don't see it as being either of these, as I see the break (or change, if you prefer) happening with Saul-->Paul. Perhaps it needs its own thread to discuss this further.
Third: "And read what? TWI's material?
You bumped your head if you think that.
It was to read the Pauline epistles.
But how many people do you think actually did that?
None, that I knew or ever heard of.."
The emphasis on the Pauline Epistles, IMO, IS NOT what dictor refers to when he exhorts all piffle students to put aside all other reading materials besides "The Word" for three months and note the tremendous changes that will occur as a result of "understanding and applying the rightly-divided word of God". He is referring to the entire KJV, Old and New Testaments.
Maybe you're right, DWBH. I was going strictly from memory, and how I might have perceived it. Perhaps I am mixing things I heard him say at other times with it, and I'd have to (fat chance) listen to that session of the class again to be sure. The point was, it wasn't TWI collaterals. (That was something that came afterwards.)
Ever think you knew how the Way Tree was structured? Take a closer look at this description from The Way Tree syllabus from 1974. It says the OPPOSITE of what many of us always thought it said.
"Each twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing IN COOPERATION WITH its respective Branch AS EACH BRANCH IS TO its respective Limb, AS EACH LIMB IS TO its respective Trunk, AS EACH TRUNK IS TO the Root of The Way.
Self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing? Not so much.
Well, out of curiosity, I pulled out some old notes & pfal materials (yeah, I still have some)... and found this old "Your Continued Spiritual Growth" sheet talking about the "Home Study Lessons. I guess it was or became part of the pfal syllabus (c.1975 ?), but maybe I just didn't pay much attention to it. In it was this this line:
"Your basic library should be your Bible, The Way material, and a concordance as you continue in your Christian walk."
I still have mine. (1972) It does not contain that particular sheet. My syllabus has a 1968 copyright date. Maybe it was added or deleted at some other time. The suggested reading for all the lessons comes from PFAL materials, with heavy emphasis on Ephesians and Romans.. Completion of these home studies was mandatory for acceptance into the Advanced Class, along with proof of faithfulness to abundant sharing and *active promotion* of The Way and PFAL.
*active promotion*... means devoting your time to setting up chairs, making refreshments, leading songs, running a twig, etc. So, just completing the home studies and abundantly sharing could not theoretically buy you a seat in the class. You also had to submit to a lifestyle of serving the organization.
I still have mine. (1972) It does not contain that particular sheet. My syllabus has a 1968 copyright date. Maybe it was added or deleted at some other time. The suggested reading for all the lessons comes from PFAL materials, with heavy emphasis on Ephesians and Romans.. Completion of these home studies was mandatory for acceptance into the Advanced Class, along with proof of faithfulness to abundant sharing and *active promotion* of The Way and PFAL.
*active promotion*... means devoting your time to setting up chairs, making refreshments, leading songs, running a twig, etc. So, just completing the home studies and abundantly sharing could not theoretically buy you a seat in the class. You also had to submit to a lifestyle of serving the organization.
I may have several (different) copies, if I didn't toss them (I don't remember.) That page was in a binder, following a pfal syllabus (forgot to check the date on it, will have to do that later), so I'm not sure if it was part of it or if it was something that I stuck in there sometime later. (Hadn't looked at it in years, and certain memories have a way of fading.)
Proof of faithfulness to abundant sharing and *active promotion* of The Way and PFAL was a prereq for the AC?
Well shiver me timbers. Couldn't have been enforced very well...
Proof of faithfulness to abundant sharing and *active promotion* of The Way and PFAL was a prereq for the AC?
Well shiver me timbers. Couldn't have been enforced very well...
That's why I said "theoretically". Back then we didn't know it was just a money grubbing scam so we submitted ourselves to fulfilling the requirements as best we could.
"Each twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing IN COOPERATION WITH its respective Branch AS EACH BRANCH IS TO its respective Limb, AS EACH LIMB IS TO its respective Trunk, AS EACH TRUNK IS TO the Root of The Way."
Translation:
"Each twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing IN COOPERATION WITH
IN SUBMISSION TO its respective Branch AS EACH BRANCH IS TOSUBMIT to its
respective Limb, AS EACH LIMB IS TOSUBMIT to its respective Trunk, AS EACH TRUNK
Here's an abbreviated version of the incident to which I alluded in an earlier post:
A very dear lady, to whom I literally owe my very life, decided to start a twig. Not just any old twig. This twig was to be a support group of sorts for people whose children and grandchildren were participants in the various Way training programs. (W.O.W., Way Homes, Way Corps, FellowLaborers) They met at an official level once or twice a week. At an unofficial level, they met a bit more often to have breakfast, help each other with non-ministry chores and just enjoy socializing with each other. They were all retired, some on fixed income. They enjoyed the singing, the praying, the SNS teaching tapes and interacting with each other on a personal level. What could possibly go wrong?
These were all people of limited financial resources. They did not abundantly share. They did, however, give support and sponsorship to Way program participants. They also took up a love offering at the sanctioned weekly meeting. Who knows? Maybe someone reading this had parents or grandparents who attended this twig. It was small so it's probably unlikely. If so, I'll bet they never told you about what happened. Well, push came to shove regarding the "blue form" (weekly ABS sheet) and word came down from the mountain HQ that 1.)There was not enough age diversity represented in their group and 2.)Their ranks were not expanding as is expected of a typical twig. Thus, they were to either disband the twig or stop identifying it as being associated with The Way. Ultimately, they chose to simply socialize with each other on a casual basis. The twig as an entity ceased to be. It broke this lady's heart. It broke mine too because I was the one who had gotten her involved with The Way in the first place.
Submit to our methods or hit the dusty trail. That's the REAL message of The Way "ministry".
edit: That lady was my mother so don't even think to tell me it's time to "just get over it".
Being at Way World (HQ) sheltered us from many things that were evidently "happening" in parts of the ministry all over the country. Of course, being at the epicenter had (and manifest) other issues. Within a year of being away from HQ and realizing how screwy things were where we were on the field, we made a tough decision and committed to moving again (this time, with no assistance from the ministry), all the way west... to try and figure out whether it was the whole ministry that was screwed up, or only where we were there.
Well, that decision was only days (maybe a week or two, its hard to remember exactly) before the POP was first read at HQ. I know some of you here have no regard whatsoever for it, but it sure took the lid off what was happening and made plenty of sense at the time. Silly us, thinking at the time that things might then get healed up and better. (Little did we know the big can of worms that it opened... and my gosh. We were plenty ignorant of and/or naïve to SO many things back then!) Like him or not, the purulency of twi sorely needed to be lanced...
Being at Way World (HQ) sheltered us from many things that were evidently "happening" in parts of the ministry all over the country. Of course, being at the epicenter had (and manifest) other issues. Within a year of being away from HQ and realizing how screwy things were where we were on the field, we made a tough decision and committed to moving again (this time, with no assistance from the ministry), all the way west... to try and figure out whether it was the whole ministry that was screwed up, or only where we were there.
Well, that decision was only days (maybe a week or two, its hard to remember exactly) before the POP was first read at HQ. I know some of you here have no regard whatsoever for it, but it sure took the lid off what was happening and made plenty of sense at the time. Silly us, thinking at the time that things might then get healed up and better. (Little did we know the big can of worms that it opened... and my gosh. We were plenty ignorant of and/or naïve to SO many things back then!) Like him or not, the purulency of twi sorely needed to be lanced...
1) Indeed, because they controlled the flow of information, a key component for controlling the people. They couldn't get away with demand for submission quite as easily if they couldn't control what the submissees could consider, especially about the cult itself.
2) Cute word, purulency. Yes, twi was full of pus. And the PoP may have lanced it. But it never healed.
That's also why it was important to indoctrinate the followers on political beliefs.
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TLC
Yeah, the tree thing was pretty jacked up, as mentioned other places already.
(But,it wasn't always that way or from the "git-go.")
And it wasn't always like that either.
Seems like we must have lived in different eras, or parts of the country, or something...
yeah, but there was a time when most of these manifestations were done on a "first to get to it" request.
If you didn't care or really want to, you just didn't.
Well, there were exceptions. (It's a fact, as I was one...)
But yes, I did do both of the above.
Indeed it is. And I'm not denying that manipulation is also everywhere around us. We just have to learn to recognize and deal with where there are (or were) heavier concentrations of it.
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skyrider
Even though....."The Way Tree" was one of the prerequisite classes for the advanced class,
and....wierwille's right-hand man, johnnie t0wnsend, taught it as gospel,
and....way productions sang that "leaf on a mighty tree" song,
and....tree-terminology was finally phased out around 1992 (?)
Twi STILL uses the tree emblem on their LOGO....whatever year that started?
Pretty "jacked up" = whacked out.....right? :B)
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TLC
Yes.
But to further clarify, I meant "the way tree" wasn't from the git-go.
(and not that I think the tree thing was okay at first, but that later it got screwed up. "It" was jacked up from its inception... which to me appears to reflect an attempt of vpw to model things after the way the early church might have operated in Jerusalem, and not after what is depicted in the Pauline epistles.)
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TLC
They don't? Guess I wasn't aware of that. (Then again, '92 was some time after being distanced from HQ.)
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Rocky
It seems like, in the comments I quoted above, 1) you're arguing semantics, 2) trying to claim you didn't always submit and/or that 3) it wasn't necessarily the original intent.
My impressions, however, are that despite your own possible original intent to not get caught up in the submission, you eventually did anyway.
Have you ever heard of Peter Senge? He was (is) an MIT professor. His book, The Fifth Discipline, is about learning organizations.
Wierwille's cult learned and developed alright, but not the way Senge suggests it should have. Twi adapted as it grew to become more like what VPee wanted it to be.
I also suggest insight can be gathered from Noam Chomsky and his writings on manufacturing consent.
Chomsky focuses, regarding this subject, on mass media. In twi, Wierwille controlled the media. It began with his directive in the PFLAP class to put away all of your other reading material for months.
Of course, if you stayed around that long, you were hooked and then dismissed philosophy, "world wisdom" in favor of VPee's "wisdom."
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TLC
No, I simply think that many times things here are looked at and/or stated in the extremes.
I don't think that anyone associated with it, either in similar fashion to, or for as long as I was, wasn't changed in one way or another as a result. In short, it's not likely that we would be who or what we are today had we not been. And, not unlike other trying events or situations in life, where we end up and/or the "lenses" that use to view life with varies from person to person. In spite of all the issues, problems or difficulties, I can look back on some number of things and see where God worked with me, in spite of many good/bad situations and/or my own strengths, shortcomings and/or failures.
There's no question that there are a lot of things to "stew" over. But facts are facts, and they're not just semantics. And just because some people seemed to bow down and kiss the ring of certain ministry leadership, doesn't mean that everyone else did likewise and worshipped the ground that vpw walked on (either at the beginning or at the end), nor does it mean that some psychoanalyst somewhere can now paint everyone with the same stroke of the brush and/or "wash" everyone clean with some offering of philosophical wisdom or miracle detergent.
And read what? TWI's material?
You bumped your head if you think that.
It was to read the Pauline epistles.
But how many people do you think actually did that?
None, that I knew or ever heard of...
Again, to see it only (or merely) as "always opposed, and always one or the other" pushes that to the very extreme edge of reason or sanity... something which I honestly suspect very few actually did. And where does the "wisdom of God" enter that picture? Is there never any room or option for it?
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Rocky
If you don't remember Wierwille's demand (suggestion? encouragement? or however you want to characterize it) to stop reading anything but the Word according to Victor, I don't know what to tell you.
The younger people who more recently rejected Wierwillism/fundamentalism have stated unequivocally that the current interpretation is that the only approved reading material are "the collaterals."
As much as you seem to be saying that I or others (like skyrider) are suggesting everything was either/or aka black/white, I don't see it that way.
Group cohesion was absolutely dependent on submission, as the premise for this thread suggests. But of course there were degrees of submission and rebellion.
VPee tamped down rebellion whenever it reared its ugly (to him) head... which was any time anyone dared to openly challenge ANY of his ideas, any of his plans, any of his actions, any of his words.
As a young adult, I didn't look at it that way either. But I can look back and see it in the rear view mirror with extreme clarity.
I was in residence with the 9th corpse for the first year. The interim year was problematic for me. I ended up splitting from Ft. Dodge, IA at Christmas time and high tailed it back to Arizona, where I moped for several months, not attending any fellowships. Following a phone call out of the blue from a 7th corpse fellow I knew, I reconnected with way believers and attended fellowships. Eventually, I went out wow during the 11th corpse interim year. My family coordinator was 11th corpse.
He was all about demanding submission. Yet, the little "success" we had in proselytizing that year was a result of my resistance to that demand. After that year, I returned to AZ started back to college, graduating from AZ State in 86.
I've shared other aspects of my experience elsewhere on gsc, including that my college studies (accounting major) she light on my study of Acts. I realized how bass ackwards twi's accountability structure was. That prepared me for kissing the whole cult buh bye when the big exodus occurred.
So, yes, I know that not everybody who fellowshipped with twi believers got caught up in the submission to the same degree. That doesn't change obvious intent of Wierwille's organizational structure.
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waysider
You want submission examples? O.K., here goes. (I've posted this before in the course of other discussions.) This incident took place in approximately 1977.
While I was involved in FellowLaborers of Ohio (a 2 year, in-residence training program), we received notification at our housing units to report to the state headquarters immediately. We were given an arrival time frame that was physically impossible to meet. I don't remember the exact directive but it was something along the lines of "Be here in 20 minutes.", even though we were at a location that was a 30 minute drive away. (I'm simplifying this a bit to speed it along.) As we arrived (there were about 50 of us.) we were told to enter the BRC and remain silent. No talking allowed. We sat there in the dark room (it was during the early morning hours.), silently waiting for the emergency meeting to begin. It seemed like an eternity though it was probably more like 20 or 30 minutes. Finally, the limb leader took his position at the front of the room. He proceeded to chastise us for our tardiness. Next, he informed us that, because of our negative believing and lack of commitment, the ministry goal of Word Over The World was in serious jeopardy. It was especially grievous because we were in Ohio, the birthplace of The Way and our negativity was dragging down the worldwide effort. We had absolutely no idea what we could have done wrong. We were not to speak or ask questions.
As a result, the program was, at that very moment, being cancelled. We were to return to our housing units and begin to disperse in the morning. People had come from hundreds, even thousands of miles away to be a part of the program. It was quite a blow. When morning came (5:30 AM) we met one last time as a group, just as we did every morning. It was at that meeting that we were told we were being given one more chance to make the program work, on the condition that we, from that point forward, do exactly as we were told, when we were told, without questioning. Much later, of course, I learned on GSC that the same scenario was being played out at what seems to have been the same time in the Way Corps. It was all a staged charade, designed to insure our submission.
Does that speak sufficiently to the issue being examined?
Edited to note: Some of these die-hard cats you see on facebook, praising the wonders of VP and the glory days came from this exact same group and may have even occupied the very chair next to me at that meeting.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Excellent discussion Rocky< Skyrider, TLC, and all. TY all. my 10 1/2 cents follow.......
First.....Submission. Skyrider, I think you were spot on regarding submission being required in order to make the same decision to acquiesce to the increasingly self-serving demands of the Board of Terrorists (hereinafter referred to as the BOT) despite intuitive "gut feelings" telling us to get the hell outta there. However, submission is only one part of a 2-part equation. And, it is required in what turns out to be a social and interpersonal contract between minister and congregation, on the part of that congregation ( WOWS, corpses, staff, etc.)......the minister's part of that equation, IMO, is OPPRESSION. In order for us loyal and faithful congregants to continue to remain an integral part of what we believed to be a God-given calling, we made the free will decision to acquiesce (submit) to the continueingly intrusive and oppressive demands made by da forehead and the BOT in order to try to reform or at least bring it back to before the dancing prez began his self-deluded, paranoiac narcissistic destruction of not only the way, but its most loyal followers as well. He remains deluded and unrepentant to this day as do Rivenbark and Lombardi.
Second: The Way Tree.........At the very first niteowl in my first month in-rez, September, 1973, in the BRC after a Sunday Night Fellowship, in our PJs. It was the first night that he had a couple of Drambuie coffee cups too many and was contentedly praising himself in good humor. He began talking about what inspired ("in-spirit-action") his "revelation" of The Way Tree, which was the book by Alcoholics Anonymous which accompanied their book, "The Twelve Steps"...."The 12 Traditions" which lays out the structure and polity for every AA group. It was published in 1936 IIRC.....a year or more after "The 12 Steps". One of the first 5 includes the exact phrase, ".......self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating.....". This, said dictor paul, sparked the "revelation of The Way Tree, BUT.....UNLIKE TLC's claim that it was modeled after The Book of Acts, it was modeled after the Gospels and several of those "red-letter" verses that we weren't to ever think were TO US.....i.e., ultradispensationalism is the underlying presumed "rightly divided understanding" of such verses a la Ethelbert. It was based on the parables of the good tree and bad tree producing its corresponding fruit, and that the fruit would be the means "by which ye shall know them......ye shall know them by their fruit"), and the parable of the vines and branches. The total transition to Ethelbert's series of teachings and his margin notes throughout the Book of Acts, in his Companion Bible, which include THE EIGHT GREAT STATEMENTS, was an integral part of da forehead's corpse graduation research project. The 2nd corpse graduated in August, 1973. Townsend taped The Way Tree class in 1972, the year of the great TWIt putsch which dissolved The Way West and The Way East into the infected bowels of wierwilleism. The grand shift to ultradispensationalism along with the Book of Acts becoming the god-breathed model for The Way Tree "revelation", and the elevation of all things Pauline climaxing with Ephesians as the end all and be all of Christian Faith, was accomplished by da forehead and falter cummins, who was da forehead's research advisor. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with dictor's "original revelation" nor scriptural back-up regarding The Way Tree.
Third: "And read what? TWI's material?
You bumped your head if you think that.
It was to read the Pauline epistles.
But how many people do you think actually did that?
None, that I knew or ever heard of.."
The emphasis on the Pauline Epistles, IMO, IS NOT what dictor refers to when he exhorts all piffle students to put aside all other reading materials besides "The Word" for three months and note the tremendous changes that will occur as a result of "understanding and applying the rightly-divided word of God". He is referring to the entire KJV, Old and New Testaments.
TLC, I strongly disagree with your opinion regarding that piffle statement to mean the Pauline Epistles, nor do I agree with the ultradispensationalist misinterpretation of Bullinger and Welch which must be presumed in order for any TWIt theology to "fit like a hand in a glove". I believe their interpretation of the Pauline writings is both misguided and misleading. The writings of Bullinger and Welch provide the ENTIRE basis of all TWIt theology, which i believe to be as misleading and misguided as ultradispensationalism. The ONLY "original research" into the Pauline New Testament, including falter's time at The Institute of New Testament Research during that year he spent Germany, is textually unproveable or nonexistent.
It was all to prove whatever dictor told falter gawd told him directly what a verse "literally" said or meant and that "there has to be a text somewhere that has it right". Your job is to find eet!
Thanks for reading. I look forward to continued discussion of an interesting topic and thread...............peace.
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Twinky
Submission? You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK!
You have any thought of your own - any suggestion about how something (even something incredibly minor) could be done better - YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO THE WORD. YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO LEADERSHIP. You are prideful and worldly (or carnal) in your thoughts. You have got to be MEEK! And with everyone tattle-taling on the slightest aberration - oh yes, we'll enforce meekness upon you.
How many threads have we had about "face melting"? What's that about? It's about not being meek. It's about terrorising the "meltee" into submission.
Oh yes. Bullying into submission was an art form in TWI.
All done in love, of course (cough, choke). :mad2:/>
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skyrider
WOW, just-freakin' WOW.......from Alcoholics Anonymous. :biglaugh:/>/>/>/>
Did wierwille EVER get inspiration just from the scriptures?
You know, the sola scriptura thing.....ie Martin Luther-style?
So, we attended "twig" like a recovering alcoholic attended those meetings?
Skyrider attended twig regularly
My name is skyrider......and I am a way-believer.
I come to these meetings to substantiate my faith in the way international.
The support here sustains me week after week from relapsing into non-believerhood.
I speak in tongues much to remind me that I am a recovering non-believer believer.
These meetings are my lifeline that sustain me from a life of peril.
Thank you.
:anim-smile:/>
.
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Bolshevik
Submission?
Ephesians 6:1 (KJV) Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
You are not an Adult until you are 18. (Proverbs 22:15, *cough cough*)
(turns 18) You are not an Adult until you are 21.
(turns 21) You are not really developed until 35.
Some Biblical cultures didn't considered people mature adults until 45.
It's best, as a Godly person, to obey your parents until they are DEAD.
Meanwhile, parents are under submission to who?
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waysider
Despite whatever it may say in the Way Tree syllabus, the twig was never self governing. Rules and regulation for operational procedure were generated from the mother ship in New Knockwurst, Ohio. Sing songs from Way approved sources, with Way approved lyrics. Exercise the manifestations in a manner that has been prescribed by the same mother ship. Expound on materials whose contents have been approved for presentation by...well, you know. Oh, don't forget to have a "love offering" and collect the tithes. (Boredom could have been minimized had we skipped to the final step at the onset.)
And, I think we all know by now that the twig was never intended to be self supporting. (Perhaps in another post I'll expound on an incident that demonstrates a specific example of this.) Except for some limited occasions in the early days, twigs were NOT to have car washes or any other similar activity to generate revenue that would be used at the local level or help support a believer in need. Money traveled a one-way street in The Way. Strict adherence was mandatory.
If you were ever involved in an HQ mandated "twig split" or simply decided to become part of a twig that was not the one to which you were assigned you found out rather quickly that any "self" propagating that took place was strategically governed by sources beyond the twig, itself. If you don't like the twig you're in, tough, renew your mind.
Submission. That's what drove the train.
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TLC
lol... how clever of him. Thank you for the added insight.
He sure was into the "tradition" thing (as long as he laid out exactly what the right traditions were...)
Well, if you were to look at what I said previously and consider it a little more carefully, I think you actually just added a lot of support and give much more credence to it. (Which, you'll no doubt want a further explanation of.)
For starters, I didn't say that I thought he modeled it after the Book of Acts. I poignantly and specifically said that it appeared to me to "reflect an attempt of vpw to model things after the way the early church might have operated in Jerusalem, and not after what is depicted in the Pauline epistles." What I didn't expound upon (but mustn't be overlooked) is how the apostles that were in Jerusalem might have controlled and directed their ministry outreach program to all of Israel, and/or how it may have been so greatly different from Paul's. Considering that I believe there were two gospels involved in the Book of Acts, I strongly oppose any effort to blenderize them together into one (which in effect, is what most of Christendom seems intent on doing.)
Furthermore, as I recall it (and if I have this right), Bullinger himself didn't think the modern church age started on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. He put it after the close of Acts 28. (Which is the primary difference between dispensationalists and Bullingner's ultradispensationalism.) Personally, I don't see it as being either of these, as I see the break (or change, if you prefer) happening with Saul-->Paul. Perhaps it needs its own thread to discuss this further.
Maybe you're right, DWBH. I was going strictly from memory, and how I might have perceived it. Perhaps I am mixing things I heard him say at other times with it, and I'd have to (fat chance) listen to that session of the class again to be sure. The point was, it wasn't TWI collaterals. (That was something that came afterwards.)
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waysider
Ever think you knew how the Way Tree was structured? Take a closer look at this description from The Way Tree syllabus from 1974. It says the OPPOSITE of what many of us always thought it said.
"Each twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing IN COOPERATION WITH its respective Branch AS EACH BRANCH IS TO its respective Limb, AS EACH LIMB IS TO its respective Trunk, AS EACH TRUNK IS TO the Root of The Way.
Self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing? Not so much.
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TLC
Well, out of curiosity, I pulled out some old notes & pfal materials (yeah, I still have some)... and found this old "Your Continued Spiritual Growth" sheet talking about the "Home Study Lessons. I guess it was or became part of the pfal syllabus (c.1975 ?), but maybe I just didn't pay much attention to it. In it was this this line:
"Your basic library should be your Bible, The Way material, and a concordance as you continue in your Christian walk."
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waysider
I still have mine. (1972) It does not contain that particular sheet. My syllabus has a 1968 copyright date. Maybe it was added or deleted at some other time. The suggested reading for all the lessons comes from PFAL materials, with heavy emphasis on Ephesians and Romans.. Completion of these home studies was mandatory for acceptance into the Advanced Class, along with proof of faithfulness to abundant sharing and *active promotion* of The Way and PFAL.
*active promotion*... means devoting your time to setting up chairs, making refreshments, leading songs, running a twig, etc. So, just completing the home studies and abundantly sharing could not theoretically buy you a seat in the class. You also had to submit to a lifestyle of serving the organization.
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TLC
I may have several (different) copies, if I didn't toss them (I don't remember.) That page was in a binder, following a pfal syllabus (forgot to check the date on it, will have to do that later), so I'm not sure if it was part of it or if it was something that I stuck in there sometime later. (Hadn't looked at it in years, and certain memories have a way of fading.)
Proof of faithfulness to abundant sharing and *active promotion* of The Way and PFAL was a prereq for the AC?
Well shiver me timbers. Couldn't have been enforced very well...
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waysider
That's why I said "theoretically". Back then we didn't know it was just a money grubbing scam so we submitted ourselves to fulfilling the requirements as best we could.
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skyrider
Translation:
"Each twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing IN COOPERATION WITH
IN SUBMISSION TO its respective Branch AS EACH BRANCH IS TO SUBMIT to its
respective Limb, AS EACH LIMB IS TO SUBMIT to its respective Trunk, AS EACH TRUNK
IS TO SUBMIT to the Root of The Way."
.
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TLC
Submit... or you'll be a geasespot by midnight.
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waysider
Here's an abbreviated version of the incident to which I alluded in an earlier post:
A very dear lady, to whom I literally owe my very life, decided to start a twig. Not just any old twig. This twig was to be a support group of sorts for people whose children and grandchildren were participants in the various Way training programs. (W.O.W., Way Homes, Way Corps, FellowLaborers) They met at an official level once or twice a week. At an unofficial level, they met a bit more often to have breakfast, help each other with non-ministry chores and just enjoy socializing with each other. They were all retired, some on fixed income. They enjoyed the singing, the praying, the SNS teaching tapes and interacting with each other on a personal level. What could possibly go wrong?
These were all people of limited financial resources. They did not abundantly share. They did, however, give support and sponsorship to Way program participants. They also took up a love offering at the sanctioned weekly meeting. Who knows? Maybe someone reading this had parents or grandparents who attended this twig. It was small so it's probably unlikely. If so, I'll bet they never told you about what happened. Well, push came to shove regarding the "blue form" (weekly ABS sheet) and word came down from the mountain HQ that 1.)There was not enough age diversity represented in their group and 2.)Their ranks were not expanding as is expected of a typical twig. Thus, they were to either disband the twig or stop identifying it as being associated with The Way. Ultimately, they chose to simply socialize with each other on a casual basis. The twig as an entity ceased to be. It broke this lady's heart. It broke mine too because I was the one who had gotten her involved with The Way in the first place.
Submit to our methods or hit the dusty trail. That's the REAL message of The Way "ministry".
edit: That lady was my mother so don't even think to tell me it's time to "just get over it".
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TLC
Being at Way World (HQ) sheltered us from many things that were evidently "happening" in parts of the ministry all over the country. Of course, being at the epicenter had (and manifest) other issues. Within a year of being away from HQ and realizing how screwy things were where we were on the field, we made a tough decision and committed to moving again (this time, with no assistance from the ministry), all the way west... to try and figure out whether it was the whole ministry that was screwed up, or only where we were there.
Well, that decision was only days (maybe a week or two, its hard to remember exactly) before the POP was first read at HQ. I know some of you here have no regard whatsoever for it, but it sure took the lid off what was happening and made plenty of sense at the time. Silly us, thinking at the time that things might then get healed up and better. (Little did we know the big can of worms that it opened... and my gosh. We were plenty ignorant of and/or naïve to SO many things back then!) Like him or not, the purulency of twi sorely needed to be lanced...
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Rocky
1) Indeed, because they controlled the flow of information, a key component for controlling the people. They couldn't get away with demand for submission quite as easily if they couldn't control what the submissees could consider, especially about the cult itself.
2) Cute word, purulency. Yes, twi was full of pus. And the PoP may have lanced it. But it never healed.
That's also why it was important to indoctrinate the followers on political beliefs.
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