This is related to the Trinity thread in About The Way.
1) I'm not a Christian, therefore I'm not for or against or believe in The Trinity/Unitarianism/Anti-Trinity stances.
2) My main interests are understanding how a Wayfer's minds thinks (in general), how to approach them, and VPW's motives and consequences of his actions. And other topics related to those points.
3) I assume everyone here agrees a person's belief about The Trinity guarantees nothing about their character.
4) My background is being raised in TWI. I have followed no other religion/belief system.
5) VPW can be agreed with or disagreed with here. I'd prefer to refrain from blatant bashing.
I'm hoping some Christians (or some who understand) can explain why The Trinity is important to many Christians, why VPW's anti-Trinity stance was significant, and how the non-Trinity view may have affected other doctrines of Christianity in TWI. (What might have been intended and unintended consequences.) What role does the Trinity play and what did VPW disrupt?
Also, if you are Anti/Non Trinity. The question is the same or similar, but from your doctrinal perspective.
Bol, I am a practicing Christian, and I don't believe in the Trinity. However, if others want to believe in it, that's their right.
Clearly I am superior to the typical gsc cult follower, both in wit and scriptural knowledge. You guys should all humble yourselves, join my flock, and let me teach you the real interpretation of the Bible.
Rob's, I am a kind and gentle person, and try to stay out of fights. But you really p--s me off; I never thought I would say that to anyone at this Website. Quite frankly, I don't think you are funny, or clever. I think you have a huge problem with the people on this site, because they make you look like a dumb S--t. I think you should knock off your Bullsheet, and read what is written for your learning. As much as I like men, you are the one man on this Website that I don't like. Many of the people here are far smarter, and Witter, than you. Plus, they know the Bible far better than you; I think you have much to learn about the Bible, life, and women.
Clearly I am superior to the typical gsc cult follower, both in wit and scriptural knowledge. You guys should all humble yourselves, join my flock, and let me teach you the real interpretation of the Bible.
Rob, I am going to see my Mental Health Specialist on Friday. Would you like me to make an appointment for you??
Bol, I am a practicing Christian, and I don't believe in the Trinity. However, if others want to believe in it, that's their right.
In TWI Wayfers seem to almost go into convulsions if someone mentions The Trinity. They draw that attention. That's kinda why I think there needs to be some focus on it. Not trying to convince anyone on it.
In TWI Wayfers seem to almost go into convulsions if someone mentions The Trinity. They draw that attention. That's kinda why I think there needs to be some focus on it. Not trying to convince anyone on it.
Bol, I think you are right. A lot of people in TWI would go nuts, if the Trinity was mentioned. However, to me, if people want to believe that it is real fine. If they don't, that is fine also.
Bol, I think you are right. A lot of people in TWI would go nuts, if the Trinity was mentioned. However, to me, if people want to believe that it is real fine. If they don't, that is fine also.
Being a follower of VPW is not fine. He was not a builder. You just ruin yourself, pull down those around you, and contribute to the decay of the greater society. It may be a right but it is wrong. The anti-trinity reaction plays into that.
Being a follower of VPW is not fine. He was not a builder. You just ruin yourself, pull down those around you, and contribute to the decay of the greater society. It may be a right but it is wrong. The anti-trinity reaction plays into that.
Bol, I never said that being a follower of VPW was fine. I think if people want to believe in the Trinity, that's fine. I don't believe in the Trinity, and that is fine also. I think whatever floats your boat is fine.
Bol, I never said that being a follower of VPW was fine. I think if people want to believe in the Trinity, that's fine. I don't believe in the Trinity, and that is fine also. I think whatever floats your boat is fine.
No Grace, I wasn't implying you were.
It's just context. Most people don't concern themselves with such topics. Which is absolutely fine. Wayfers do, very much so, in an irrational and stubborn way. Like they're hiding something. Whatever that is, which may be a number of things, could be helpful.
One of the hallmarks of a cult (any cult) is to lay claim to special knowledge that no one else has. The Way's stance on the trinity falls into that realm, as do the manifestations,"are the dead alive now?" and various other items.
It's just context. Most people don't concern themselves with such topics. Which is absolutely fine. Wayfers do, very much so, in an irrational and stubborn way. Like they're hiding something. Whatever that is, which may be a number of things, could be helpful.
Actually Arius believed Jesus was a minor deity. It was Appollonarius who said Christ was either the angel Gabriel or the Archangel Michael. Wierwille was closer to the Essene/Ebionite belief that Jesus was a perfect created human being having no pre-existence(Paul of Samosota).
On 8/27/2017 at 2:40 PM, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:
Actually Arius believed Jesus was a minor deity. It was Appollonarius who said Christ was either the angel Gabriel or the Archangel Michael. Wierwille was closer to the Essene/Ebionite belief that Jesus was a perfect created human being having no pre-existence(Paul of Samosota).
Down with the Ebionites!!!!!!
sorry just thought I could provide some Renaissance crowd background noise. LOL.
On 8/27/2017 at 4:40 PM, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:
Actually Arius believed Jesus was a minor deity. It was Appollonarius who said Christ was either the angel Gabriel or the Archangel Michael. Wierwille was closer to the Essene/Ebionite belief that Jesus was a perfect created human being having no pre-existence(Paul of Samosota).
I think Wierwille was closer to following Fallopians. Since Jesus sperm was created there.
The majority of Church Fathers[citation needed]agree that the Ebionites rejected many of the precepts central toNicene orthodoxy, such as hispre-existence,divinity,virgin birth,atoningdeath, andphysical resurrection.[6]On the other hand, an Ebionite story has Jesus eating bread with his brother Jacob ("James the Just") after the resurrection, which indicates that the Ebionites, or at least the ones who accepted this version of theGospel of the Hebrews, very much believed in a physical resurrection for Jesus.[55]The Ebionites are described as emphasizing theoneness of Godand the humanity of Jesus as the biological son of bothMaryandJoseph, who by virtue of hisrighteousness, waschosenby God to be themessianic"prophetlikeMoses" (foretold inDeuteronomy18:14–22) when he wasanointedwith theHoly Spiritat his baptism.[4]Origen (Contra Celsum5.61)[56]and Eusebius (Historia Ecclesiastica3.27.3) recognize some variation in theChristologyof Ebionite groups; for example that while all Ebionites denied Christ's pre-existence there was a sub-group which did not deny the virgin birth.[57]Theodoret, while dependent on earlier writers,[58]draws the conclusion that the two sub-groups would have used different Gospels.[59]
One of the hallmarks of a cult (any cult) is to lay claim to special knowledge that no one else has. The Way's stance on the trinity falls into that realm
First, I have to say this was a great discussion! Thank you all for contributing.
I just looked at the book "Jesus Christ Is Not God" to see what was in the bibliography, and there isn't one. I found this very strange because "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" has one about 17 pages long. I find it strange also because there are other organizations that understand Jesus is not God, thereby refuting the trinity. I also have a great book, "Early Christians Speak", and that is where I find, historically, the first use of the word trinity.
While I appreciate VPW's book, he does make it look like he's the only person that understood any of this. Funny, I didn't realize that in all these years. And I never thought he was infallible - there are several things he taught that I found preposterous, and contradictory to other things he taught - but this particular book I found to be excellent. I just would have liked to know his sources.
Jesus Christ is Not God did indeed have a bibliography. However, oddly, it was published separately and only available upon request. I used to have it. Some interesting resources there.
As a work of scholarship, it was exceedingly weak.
Jesus Christ is Not God did indeed have a bibliography. However, oddly, it was published separately and only available upon request. I used to have it. Some interesting resources there.
As a work of scholarship, it was exceedingly weak.
Had no idea there was ever a bibliography for JCING Raf. Thanks for the info. And yes, I’m sure “it was exceedingly weak”.
Hey Taxi! How come you never responded to any of my questions/comments re: your posts about RnR and the "incredible men of gawd" that populate those rare environs?? You know what CES/STFI/TLTF are. I'm sure you know what CFFM is too, and SOWERS. How about some answers? They would be much appreciated! TY.
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chockfull
What experience with churches today exactly do you have? Aren't you one of the ones that isolated and studied PFAL collaterals for a decade plus not attending churches? In my experience the trin
Raf
Questions about the identity of Jesus Christ are almost as old as Christianity itself. The gospels and epistles are, at least in part, a rebuttal to early claims about exactly who Jesus was, both befo
Bolshevik
We're not really trying to prove or disprove existence of anything in this thread. If many people over generations talk about it, that's good enough. It exists. Do the various views of trinity/
Grace Valerie Claire
Bol, I am a practicing Christian, and I don't believe in the Trinity. However, if others want to believe in it, that's their right.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, good for you honey!! I needed a good laugh!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rob's, I am a kind and gentle person, and try to stay out of fights. But you really p--s me off; I never thought I would say that to anyone at this Website. Quite frankly, I don't think you are funny, or clever. I think you have a huge problem with the people on this site, because they make you look like a dumb S--t. I think you should knock off your Bullsheet, and read what is written for your learning. As much as I like men, you are the one man on this Website that I don't like. Many of the people here are far smarter, and Witter, than you. Plus, they know the Bible far better than you; I think you have much to learn about the Bible, life, and women.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bol, you are so funny!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rob, I am going to see my Mental Health Specialist on Friday. Would you like me to make an appointment for you??
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Bolshevik
In TWI Wayfers seem to almost go into convulsions if someone mentions The Trinity. They draw that attention. That's kinda why I think there needs to be some focus on it. Not trying to convince anyone on it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bol, I think you are right. A lot of people in TWI would go nuts, if the Trinity was mentioned. However, to me, if people want to believe that it is real fine. If they don't, that is fine also.
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Bolshevik
Being a follower of VPW is not fine. He was not a builder. You just ruin yourself, pull down those around you, and contribute to the decay of the greater society. It may be a right but it is wrong. The anti-trinity reaction plays into that.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bol, I never said that being a follower of VPW was fine. I think if people want to believe in the Trinity, that's fine. I don't believe in the Trinity, and that is fine also. I think whatever floats your boat is fine.
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Bolshevik
No Grace, I wasn't implying you were.
It's just context. Most people don't concern themselves with such topics. Which is absolutely fine. Wayfers do, very much so, in an irrational and stubborn way. Like they're hiding something. Whatever that is, which may be a number of things, could be helpful.
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waysider
One of the hallmarks of a cult (any cult) is to lay claim to special knowledge that no one else has. The Way's stance on the trinity falls into that realm, as do the manifestations,"are the dead alive now?" and various other items.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bol, thanks for clearing that up!!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Actually Arius believed Jesus was a minor deity. It was Appollonarius who said Christ was either the angel Gabriel or the Archangel Michael. Wierwille was closer to the Essene/Ebionite belief that Jesus was a perfect created human being having no pre-existence(Paul of Samosota).
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chockfull
Down with the Ebionites!!!!!!
sorry just thought I could provide some Renaissance crowd background noise. LOL.
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T-Bone
Not to be confused with Ebonics…which is cool to listen to…have to slow it down though - - otherwise it’s Greek to me.
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Bolshevik
I think Wierwille was closer to following Fallopians. Since Jesus sperm was created there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
The majority of Church Fathers[citation needed] agree that the Ebionites rejected many of the precepts central to Nicene orthodoxy, such as his pre-existence, divinity, virgin birth, atoning death, and physical resurrection.[6] On the other hand, an Ebionite story has Jesus eating bread with his brother Jacob ("James the Just") after the resurrection, which indicates that the Ebionites, or at least the ones who accepted this version of the Gospel of the Hebrews, very much believed in a physical resurrection for Jesus.[55] The Ebionites are described as emphasizing the oneness of God and the humanity of Jesus as the biological son of both Mary and Joseph, who by virtue of his righteousness, was chosen by God to be the messianic "prophet like Moses" (foretold in Deuteronomy 18:14–22) when he was anointed with the Holy Spirit at his baptism.[4] Origen (Contra Celsum 5.61)[56] and Eusebius (Historia Ecclesiastica 3.27.3) recognize some variation in the Christology of Ebionite groups; for example that while all Ebionites denied Christ's pre-existence there was a sub-group which did not deny the virgin birth.[57] Theodoret, while dependent on earlier writers,[58] draws the conclusion that the two sub-groups would have used different Gospels.[59]
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Taxidev
First, I have to say this was a great discussion! Thank you all for contributing.
I just looked at the book "Jesus Christ Is Not God" to see what was in the bibliography, and there isn't one. I found this very strange because "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" has one about 17 pages long. I find it strange also because there are other organizations that understand Jesus is not God, thereby refuting the trinity. I also have a great book, "Early Christians Speak", and that is where I find, historically, the first use of the word trinity.
While I appreciate VPW's book, he does make it look like he's the only person that understood any of this. Funny, I didn't realize that in all these years. And I never thought he was infallible - there are several things he taught that I found preposterous, and contradictory to other things he taught - but this particular book I found to be excellent. I just would have liked to know his sources.
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Raf
Jesus Christ is Not God did indeed have a bibliography. However, oddly, it was published separately and only available upon request. I used to have it. Some interesting resources there.
As a work of scholarship, it was exceedingly weak.
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JayDee
Had no idea there was ever a bibliography for JCING Raf. Thanks for the info. And yes, I’m sure “it was exceedingly weak”.
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Raf
The bibliography was fine. The arguments in the book were weak.
Which is not to say ALL of the arguments were weak. Some were quite good. But taken as a whole, weak.
The CES book was MUCH better, though it dishonestly did not cite Wierwille's book in its bibliography.
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Taxidev
What is this book?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hey Taxi! How come you never responded to any of my questions/comments re: your posts about RnR and the "incredible men of gawd" that populate those rare environs?? You know what CES/STFI/TLTF are. I'm sure you know what CFFM is too, and SOWERS. How about some answers? They would be much appreciated! TY.
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Raf
https://www.amazon.com/One-God-Lord-5th/dp/0983604223/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1516648508&sr=8-2&keywords="One+God+and+One+Lord"
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Taxidev
Thanks, Raf.
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