With TWI's focus on abundance as well, I thought this youtube video by JP Sears about The Law of Attraction has some good points as well. If you accept that The Law of Attraction and The Law of Believing are essentially the same thing.
"So long as you love God and your neighbor as yourself,
you can do as you fool-well please."
With it left completely vague how to do the first part,
vpw's teachings left him free to do as he pleased.
Yep. That's also why the connection vpw had with JBS is so significant. JBS gave him permission to do as he pleased without giving any serious thought to what constitutes loving God and loving others.
Rocky thanks for that link to magical thinking – I've bookmarked it so I can review it a few times – good stuff.
VP's skewed version of Christianity was a lot about being in control and manipulating reality; I venture to say that the long term effect on his followers holding to such a mindset would be the followers becoming self-centered just like VP. One of the first non-Way books I read when I left TWI was Beyond Seduction by Dave Hunt. One of the finer points he made in the book got me thinking that maybe there was an insidious nature to certain TWI beliefs; in the book Hunt talked about self-centered belief systems that silence the God-given voice of conscience.
In my opinion true Christianity is about submitting to the lordship of Jesus Christ. When I was in TWI, maybe I had some unarticulated idea of God as being something like a genie in the law-of-believing-bottle - - there to get me what I need or want. That's opposite of the idea in Matthew 22: 36-40 that Rocky referenced in post #1 – to love God and neighbor; I think those passages could be the official policies and procedures manual for authentic Christianity...genuine love is about giving and serving.
== == == ==
vpw:
"So long as you love God and your neighbor as yourself,
you can do as you fool-well please."
With it left completely vague how to do the first part,
vpw's teachings left him free to do as he pleased.
Yeah – makes me think of the phrase "you can't have your cake and eat it too" or rather you can't have Christianity and live like the devil too. To paraphrase what I said above - VP's skewed version of Christianity was a lot about him being in control and manipulating Christianity! In other words, VP was in charge of his own religion....maybe a variation on a trinity - he was god, high priest, and devotee all rolled into one....which one ups "i am my own grandpa" ...."i am my own idol."
== == == ==
Yep. That's also why the connection vpw had with JBS is so significant. JBS gave him permission to do as he pleased without giving any serious thought to what constitutes loving God and loving others.
VP was so obsessed with stuff from the John Birch Society, conspiracy theories, devil spirits, wrong seed boys, and every other covert group that densely populated his mental map of reality. I figure his paranoid delusional tendencies factor in there but also perhaps the idea that he could thwart these invisible enemies by the "power" of believing was comforting to him...and yeah maybe after an exhausting day on his imaginary battlefield, you'd think a tough old warrior should be entitled to a furlough so he can go do whatever he wants.
Since the discussion has gotten a bit off thread topic I feel comfortable stating that having been a Christian prior to twi was a rock in my existence, during twi it was questioned and confirmed many folds over but after leaving twi, I was free to be a Christian and not something else. TWI placed me back under laws that were differenct than the Lutheran church, when I questioned that, I was bucking God. Silly me, I thought they spoke for God. I have an ill feeling about those who say they spoke for God when it's damn sure they did not. I think back and am ashamed that I probably held vpw in highter esteem than Jesus Christ and even God (emotionally and in daily thinking). I have alot of sins in my life and even though I am forgiven of all by Christ's blood, it's very hard to think that I broke the first commandment.
Since the discussion has gotten a bit off thread topic I feel comfortable stating that having been a Christian prior to twi was a rock in my existence, during twi it was questioned and confirmed many folds over but after leaving twi, I was free to be a Christian and not something else. TWI placed me back under laws that were different than the Lutheran church, when I questioned that, I was bucking God. Silly me, I thought they spoke for God. I have an ill feeling about those who say they spoke for God when it's damn sure they did not. I think back and am ashamed that I probably held vpw in higher esteem than Jesus Christ and even God (emotionally and in daily thinking). I have a lot of sins in my life and even though I am forgiven of all by Christ's blood, it's very hard to think that I broke the first commandment.
Having started this thread, I don't see where it had gotten off topic prior to your post. That said, I appreciate your comment too.
Having started this thread, I don't see where it had gotten off topic prior to your post. That said, I appreciate your comment too.
Well if I posted off thread topic more than some others, I appologize but did not think I was anymore off thread than alot of the posts; there's no issue for debate, I will sit this one out.
Since the discussion has gotten a bit off thread topic I feel comfortable stating that having been a Christian prior to twi was a rock in my existence, during twi it was questioned and confirmed many folds over but after leaving twi, I was free to be a Christian and not something else. TWI placed me back under laws that were differenct than the Lutheran church, when I questioned that, I was bucking God. Silly me, I thought they spoke for God. I have an ill feeling about those who say they spoke for God when it's damn sure they did not. I think back and am ashamed that I probably held vpw in highter esteem than Jesus Christ and even God (emotionally and in daily thinking). I have alot of sins in my life and even though I am forgiven of all by Christ's blood, it's very hard to think that I broke the first commandment.
Hi MRAP, whether it's off topic or not, I really appreciate your honest comments and there's a lot in your post that resonates with me. I'm glad you said what you said. I was raised Roman Catholic but towards the latter years of my time in TWI it seemed like it had become more legalistic and even ritualistic than the Roman Catholics. While I'm at it - let me also say when I was a kid a lot of the mass was in Latin and that truly mystified my little mind – but you know some of the stuff VP threw out there can be just as befuddlicious (just try analyzing the great principle for starters).
I also am ashamed to say (but feel it's now part of my "penance" to confess before this "congregation") what high esteem I too held VP; he spoke of the Word taking the place of the absent Christ – and there is a despicable "truth" in what he said; if I may be so bold as to paraphrase his statement – it was the word of VP that took the place of Christ in his version of Christianity.
Speaking of violating the Great Commandment – I never felt so guilt ridden for trespassing the second commandment (love thy neighbor as thyself) as when it was shortly after I left TWI; I was shopping in a supermarket (this is a little weird to think of it even now) and as I walked up and down the aisles, looking at these strangers I passed - I began to cry. And I don't mean one little tear down the cheek – I mean running water! I had to leave the store because I felt like everyone was looking at me thinking this guy is having a nervous breakdown or something.
I realized how much I looked down on everyone who was not in The Way and was thunderstruck by how much of an elitist….a spiritual snob I had become! For me it was like Paul knocked off his high horse on the road to Damascus (Acts 9) meets the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18). Anyway that's how I'll pitch it to the producers for the final episode of That Darn Pharisee.
Thanks for the Matthew Hutson link, Rocky. He has more detailed work out there with countless examples that I found very enlightening concerning typical, natural, rational, human behavior. Magical thinking is part of all our daily functioning.
I recently told someone to "cross their fingers". In the past, under the influence of Waybrain thinking, I probably would have said "be believing for", in place of crossing fingers. I don't believe crossing your fingers has any affect on the greater world, but I use the expression. Both "crossing your fingers" and "believing for" can be considered magical thinking, IMO, although there may be some differences?
For one Believing involves use of the spirit realm. You Believe, and God goes to work since you have Him under contract with this signed document called, The Bible. A wayfer could accuse someone "crossing their fingers" as utilizing devil-spirit powers, since they are being "superstitious".
Believing is also more commanding. A Way Believer is conditioned to act as if results happened, not hope for them. I don't think "knocking on wood" is very Godly under Waybrain.
Perhaps Believing is used to replace any common-sense magical thinking in TWI? Maybe, maybe not.
"I recently told someone to "cross their fingers". In the past, under the influence of Waybrain thinking, I probably would have said "be believing for", in place of crossing fingers. I don't believe crossing your fingers has any affect on the greater world, but I use the expression. Both "crossing your fingers" and "believing for" can be considered magical thinking, IMO, although there may be some differences?"
In my opinion, there is a difference. When you cross your fingers, that's the end of it. It's passive. You don't continue to think about the power of crossed fingers. When you believe for something, you become an active participant by dwelling on the desired outcome. You self delude with mental fixation (camera analogy) and reinforce it with speaking in tongues. (lift list)
I think you quite accurately provide for us TWIt's practical use of the "law of believing", waysider. It was more of a demanded obsession to accomplish an impossible mission.......e.g. make God do what I want or think I need. Guess that worked for 'em eh waysider?......LOL.
"I recently told someone to "cross their fingers". In the past, under the influence of Waybrain thinking, I probably would have said "be believing for", in place of crossing fingers. I don't believe crossing your fingers has any affect on the greater world, but I use the expression. Both "crossing your fingers" and "believing for" can be considered magical thinking, IMO, although there may be some differences?"
In my opinion, there is a difference. When you cross your fingers, that's the end of it. It's passive. You don't continue to think about the power of crossed fingers. When you believe for something, you become an active participant by dwelling on the desired outcome. You self delude with mental fixation (camera analogy) and reinforce it with speaking in tongues. (lift list)
I think you quite accurately provide for us TWIt's practical use of the "law of believing", waysider. It was more of a demanded obsession to accomplish an impossible mission.......e.g. make God do what I want or think I need. Guess that worked for 'em eh waysider?......LOL.
you guys have made some damned good points - thanks mucho !!!!
/> Yo Don't Worry – hey you and Waysider must have set your posts on simmer mode (the ones I quoted in post # 16) cuz I could not stop thinking about them until something finally did boil over – and so here's a few thoughts.
Waysider said "When you believe for something, you become an active participant by dwelling on the desired outcome. You self delude with mental fixation (camera analogy)…" a very sharp analysis and accurate depiction of practicing TWI's law of believing - in my opinion; and then on the heels of that Don't Worry said – "…It was more of a demanded obsession to accomplish an impossible mission.......e.g. make God do what I want or think I need." I think that just shows you how incongruent the TWI mindset can be. I mean, make up your mind! Are you pulling it off or is God pulling it off?
On the one hand, you're going through all the drills to believe for something (positive confessions, believing images of victory, listening to teachings on believing, speaking in tongues for it, praying in your understanding for it, yada, yada, yada). While at the same time you keep reminding yourself God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think – so we keep asking and thinking about what we want. We keep pestering God about it while going through our believing "disciplines" and with this vague notion that is how it's all supposed to work.
I almost think it goes along the lines of how the lottery works. I keep buying more and more lottery tickets because that will increase my chances of winning the jackpot. I mean what's a few positive confessions here and there, spending a little time visualizing, doing a few word studies on "faith", etc. – a "small investment" really - compared to winning the jackpot – what I've been believing for all along. Maybe that's the "pattern" magical thinking sees that Rocky talked about in the opening post.
I vaguely remember some comic's routine – that he was not going to teach his son about nonsense like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny – but rather explain to him how everything worked in the real world. When his kid asked how computers work (the dad being computer illiterate) simply responded with one word "magic." While in TWI, with my "naïve understanding" of the practical application of PFAL in the real world I guess you could say the a priori of PFAL was magic too…and the world is all going to hell in an Easter Basket too /> .
All the "gimmicks" we practiced were a model of believing that was suggested by VP and company – they sounded technical like some scientific formula: believing equals receiving, confession of belief equals receipt of confession, preparation is the highest form of believing, etc. I don't know – is that something like the "vain repetitions" Jesus talked about in Matthew 6 ? He said the heathens think that is how their requests will be heard. Jesus went on to say your heavenly Father already knows what you need even before you ask…interesting how that dovetails into the Lord's Prayer – which of course VP "critiqued" in PFAL as something not applicable in our day and time and hour…or administration…whichever interpretation is preferred in your belief system. Oh my - />
Thinking about all this stuff last night - one of the biggies of VP's sales pitch on the law of believing popped up in my memory; in the orange book, Power For Abundant Living, in chapter four Believing: Faith and Fear, on page 44, VP wrote:
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about people who set the time of their death? When somebody says, "Well, this time next year I will not be here," if you are a betting man, bet your money; you are going to win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead, God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be accommodated."
Every so often I get on this kick of finding something in the Bible that contradicts PFAL - /> - so what came to mind on this was the record in I Kings 19 – the prophet Elijah utterly despondent over Jezebel's murdering all the prophets, sets the time of his own death for the next day(verse 2), travels a day's journey into the wilderness – he then asks to die – even saying to the Lord "take away my life." Read the rest of the account – instead of God supposedly forced to allow some "law" of the universe to accommodate Elijah's death wish, God sends an angel to get him fed and strengthened for another journey to an experience that would encourage him greatly....totally turned his attitude around and he was able to continue his ministry….uhm…in case you hadn't noticed Elijah didn't get his death wish.
I don't think there's any doubt that there are/were issues in the way "believing" was talked about or taught, but along with that it should be noted that this really isn't (or perhaps, shouldn't be) something new or only recently discovered. Because even back in the heydays of the ministry (i.e., the 70's) there were "known issues" with it. Unfortunately, not only were they never sufficiently addressed or resolved, evidently they continued to be ignored, cast aside and/or simply forgotten entirely in later years.
However, "believing" was not - and is not - thought of by everyone (in TWI, at least, back then) in the way and manner that it is described in this thread. And I'm no "apologist." I'm merely stating the reality of the situation.
I don't think there's any doubt that there are/were issues in the way "believing" was thought about or taught, but along with that it should be noted that this really isn't (or perhaps, shouldn't be) something new or only recently discovered. Because even back in the heydays of the ministry (i.e., the 70's) there were "known issues" with it. Unfortunately, not only were they never sufficiently addressed or resolved, evidently they continued to be ignored, cast aside and/or simply forgotten entirely in later years.
However, "believing" was not - and is not - thought of by everyone (in TWI, at least, back then) in the way and manner that it is described in this thread. And I'm no "apologist." I'm merely stating the reality of the situation.
Sure, I could be. But on this thread... that would invariably rain fire and brimstone down on it? Are you nuts?
Perhaps if there were a doctrinal thread that related to or touched on the matter, I would be more at ease voicing my thoughts further on the matter.
Let it rain.
There are lots and lots of pre-existing threads related to the "law of believing". Some are in doctrinal, as they relate to the scriptural aspects. Others are in the About The Way forum, as they relate more to the real life impact it had on peoples' lives. There is a search window in the upper right hand corner.
edit: In the original PFAL materials it was not called the law of believing, it was called the magic of believing.
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waysider
Well, OK, here's the first part: "Perhaps the mere indication (from what I had posted previously) that I might not have been as "clueless as the rest of [some of you] back then" is part of the reason
T-Bone
Rocky thanks for that link to magical thinking – I've bookmarked it so I can review it a few times – good stuff. VP's skewed version of Christianity was a lot about being in control and manipulati
penworks
If I could put these two sentences in a flashing neon sign, I would. Speaking from experience, this lies at the heart of fanaticism.
Bolshevik
With TWI's focus on abundance as well, I thought this youtube video by JP Sears about The Law of Attraction has some good points as well. If you accept that The Law of Attraction and The Law of Believing are essentially the same thing.
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waysider
"This apple tastes abundant.".....ya gotta love it.
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Bolshevik
For Eve to think otherwise was forbidden . . .
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Bolshevik
Interesting history in that wikipedia article on Thomas Paine, Rocky. Thanks for the link!
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WordWolf
vpw:
"So long as you love God and your neighbor as yourself,
you can do as you fool-well please."
With it left completely vague how to do the first part,
vpw's teachings left him free to do as he pleased.
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Rocky
Yep. That's also why the connection vpw had with JBS is so significant. JBS gave him permission to do as he pleased without giving any serious thought to what constitutes loving God and loving others.
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T-Bone
Rocky thanks for that link to magical thinking – I've bookmarked it so I can review it a few times – good stuff.
VP's skewed version of Christianity was a lot about being in control and manipulating reality; I venture to say that the long term effect on his followers holding to such a mindset would be the followers becoming self-centered just like VP. One of the first non-Way books I read when I left TWI was Beyond Seduction by Dave Hunt. One of the finer points he made in the book got me thinking that maybe there was an insidious nature to certain TWI beliefs; in the book Hunt talked about self-centered belief systems that silence the God-given voice of conscience.
link to Beyond Seduction book on Amazon
In my opinion true Christianity is about submitting to the lordship of Jesus Christ. When I was in TWI, maybe I had some unarticulated idea of God as being something like a genie in the law-of-believing-bottle - - there to get me what I need or want. That's opposite of the idea in Matthew 22: 36-40 that Rocky referenced in post #1 – to love God and neighbor; I think those passages could be the official policies and procedures manual for authentic Christianity...genuine love is about giving and serving.
== == == ==
Yeah – makes me think of the phrase "you can't have your cake and eat it too" or rather you can't have Christianity and live like the devil too. To paraphrase what I said above - VP's skewed version of Christianity was a lot about him being in control and manipulating Christianity! In other words, VP was in charge of his own religion....maybe a variation on a trinity - he was god, high priest, and devotee all rolled into one....which one ups "i am my own grandpa" ...."i am my own idol."
== == == ==
VP was so obsessed with stuff from the John Birch Society, conspiracy theories, devil spirits, wrong seed boys, and every other covert group that densely populated his mental map of reality. I figure his paranoid delusional tendencies factor in there but also perhaps the idea that he could thwart these invisible enemies by the "power" of believing was comforting to him...and yeah maybe after an exhausting day on his imaginary battlefield, you'd think a tough old warrior should be entitled to a furlough so he can go do whatever he wants.
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MRAP
Since the discussion has gotten a bit off thread topic I feel comfortable stating that having been a Christian prior to twi was a rock in my existence, during twi it was questioned and confirmed many folds over but after leaving twi, I was free to be a Christian and not something else. TWI placed me back under laws that were differenct than the Lutheran church, when I questioned that, I was bucking God. Silly me, I thought they spoke for God. I have an ill feeling about those who say they spoke for God when it's damn sure they did not. I think back and am ashamed that I probably held vpw in highter esteem than Jesus Christ and even God (emotionally and in daily thinking). I have alot of sins in my life and even though I am forgiven of all by Christ's blood, it's very hard to think that I broke the first commandment.
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Rocky
Having started this thread, I don't see where it had gotten off topic prior to your post. That said, I appreciate your comment too.
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MRAP
Well if I posted off thread topic more than some others, I appologize but did not think I was anymore off thread than alot of the posts; there's no issue for debate, I will sit this one out.
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T-Bone
Hi MRAP, whether it's off topic or not, I really appreciate your honest comments and there's a lot in your post that resonates with me. I'm glad you said what you said. I was raised Roman Catholic but towards the latter years of my time in TWI it seemed like it had become more legalistic and even ritualistic than the Roman Catholics. While I'm at it - let me also say when I was a kid a lot of the mass was in Latin and that truly mystified my little mind – but you know some of the stuff VP threw out there can be just as befuddlicious (just try analyzing the great principle for starters).
I also am ashamed to say (but feel it's now part of my "penance" to confess before this "congregation") what high esteem I too held VP; he spoke of the Word taking the place of the absent Christ – and there is a despicable "truth" in what he said; if I may be so bold as to paraphrase his statement – it was the word of VP that took the place of Christ in his version of Christianity.
Speaking of violating the Great Commandment – I never felt so guilt ridden for trespassing the second commandment (love thy neighbor as thyself) as when it was shortly after I left TWI; I was shopping in a supermarket (this is a little weird to think of it even now) and as I walked up and down the aisles, looking at these strangers I passed - I began to cry. And I don't mean one little tear down the cheek – I mean running water! I had to leave the store because I felt like everyone was looking at me thinking this guy is having a nervous breakdown or something.
I realized how much I looked down on everyone who was not in The Way and was thunderstruck by how much of an elitist….a spiritual snob I had become! For me it was like Paul knocked off his high horse on the road to Damascus (Acts 9) meets the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18). Anyway that's how I'll pitch it to the producers for the final episode of That Darn Pharisee.
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Bolshevik
Thanks for the Matthew Hutson link, Rocky. He has more detailed work out there with countless examples that I found very enlightening concerning typical, natural, rational, human behavior. Magical thinking is part of all our daily functioning.
I recently told someone to "cross their fingers". In the past, under the influence of Waybrain thinking, I probably would have said "be believing for", in place of crossing fingers. I don't believe crossing your fingers has any affect on the greater world, but I use the expression. Both "crossing your fingers" and "believing for" can be considered magical thinking, IMO, although there may be some differences?
For one Believing involves use of the spirit realm. You Believe, and God goes to work since you have Him under contract with this signed document called, The Bible. A wayfer could accuse someone "crossing their fingers" as utilizing devil-spirit powers, since they are being "superstitious".
Believing is also more commanding. A Way Believer is conditioned to act as if results happened, not hope for them. I don't think "knocking on wood" is very Godly under Waybrain.
Perhaps Believing is used to replace any common-sense magical thinking in TWI? Maybe, maybe not.
Just some thoughts, interesting thread.
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waysider
"I recently told someone to "cross their fingers". In the past, under the influence of Waybrain thinking, I probably would have said "be believing for", in place of crossing fingers. I don't believe crossing your fingers has any affect on the greater world, but I use the expression. Both "crossing your fingers" and "believing for" can be considered magical thinking, IMO, although there may be some differences?"
In my opinion, there is a difference. When you cross your fingers, that's the end of it. It's passive. You don't continue to think about the power of crossed fingers. When you believe for something, you become an active participant by dwelling on the desired outcome. You self delude with mental fixation (camera analogy) and reinforce it with speaking in tongues. (lift list)
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DontWorryBeHappy
I think you quite accurately provide for us TWIt's practical use of the "law of believing", waysider. It was more of a demanded obsession to accomplish an impossible mission.......e.g. make God do what I want or think I need. Guess that worked for 'em eh waysider?......LOL.
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T-Bone
you guys have made some damned good points - thanks mucho !!!!
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DontWorryBeHappy
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T-Bone
Waysider said "When you believe for something, you become an active participant by dwelling on the desired outcome. You self delude with mental fixation (camera analogy)…" a very sharp analysis and accurate depiction of practicing TWI's law of believing - in my opinion; and then on the heels of that Don't Worry said – "…It was more of a demanded obsession to accomplish an impossible mission.......e.g. make God do what I want or think I need." I think that just shows you how incongruent the TWI mindset can be. I mean, make up your mind! Are you pulling it off or is God pulling it off?
On the one hand, you're going through all the drills to believe for something (positive confessions, believing images of victory, listening to teachings on believing, speaking in tongues for it, praying in your understanding for it, yada, yada, yada). While at the same time you keep reminding yourself God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think – so we keep asking and thinking about what we want. We keep pestering God about it while going through our believing "disciplines" and with this vague notion that is how it's all supposed to work.
I almost think it goes along the lines of how the lottery works. I keep buying more and more lottery tickets because that will increase my chances of winning the jackpot. I mean what's a few positive confessions here and there, spending a little time visualizing, doing a few word studies on "faith", etc. – a "small investment" really - compared to winning the jackpot – what I've been believing for all along. Maybe that's the "pattern" magical thinking sees that Rocky talked about in the opening post.
I vaguely remember some comic's routine – that he was not going to teach his son about nonsense like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny – but rather explain to him how everything worked in the real world. When his kid asked how computers work (the dad being computer illiterate) simply responded with one word "magic." While in TWI, with my "naïve understanding" of the practical application of PFAL in the real world I guess you could say the a priori of PFAL was magic too…and the world is all going to hell in an Easter Basket too
/> .
All the "gimmicks" we practiced were a model of believing that was suggested by VP and company – they sounded technical like some scientific formula: believing equals receiving, confession of belief equals receipt of confession, preparation is the highest form of believing, etc. I don't know – is that something like the "vain repetitions" Jesus talked about in Matthew 6 ? He said the heathens think that is how their requests will be heard. Jesus went on to say your heavenly Father already knows what you need even before you ask…interesting how that dovetails into the Lord's Prayer – which of course VP "critiqued" in PFAL as something not applicable in our day and time and hour…or administration…whichever interpretation is preferred in your belief system. Oh my -
/>
Thinking about all this stuff last night - one of the biggies of VP's sales pitch on the law of believing popped up in my memory; in the orange book, Power For Abundant Living, in chapter four Believing: Faith and Fear, on page 44, VP wrote:
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about people who set the time of their death? When somebody says, "Well, this time next year I will not be here," if you are a betting man, bet your money; you are going to win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead, God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be accommodated."
Every so often I get on this kick of finding something in the Bible that contradicts PFAL -
/> - so what came to mind on this was the record in I Kings 19 – the prophet Elijah utterly despondent over Jezebel's murdering all the prophets, sets the time of his own death for the next day (verse 2), travels a day's journey into the wilderness – he then asks to die – even saying to the Lord "take away my life." Read the rest of the account – instead of God supposedly forced to allow some "law" of the universe to accommodate Elijah's death wish, God sends an angel to get him fed and strengthened for another journey to an experience that would encourage him greatly....totally turned his attitude around and he was able to continue his ministry….uhm…in case you hadn't noticed Elijah didn't get his death wish.
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TLC
I don't think there's any doubt that there are/were issues in the way "believing" was talked about or taught, but along with that it should be noted that this really isn't (or perhaps, shouldn't be) something new or only recently discovered. Because even back in the heydays of the ministry (i.e., the 70's) there were "known issues" with it. Unfortunately, not only were they never sufficiently addressed or resolved, evidently they continued to be ignored, cast aside and/or simply forgotten entirely in later years.
However, "believing" was not - and is not - thought of by everyone (in TWI, at least, back then) in the way and manner that it is described in this thread. And I'm no "apologist." I'm merely stating the reality of the situation.
edited: thought talked
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T-Bone
perhaps you could be a little lot more specific
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TLC
Sure, I could be. But on this thread... that would invariably rain fire and brimstone down on it? Are you nuts?
Perhaps if there were a doctrinal thread that related to or touched on the matter, I would be more at ease voicing my thoughts further on the matter.
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waysider
Let it rain.
There are lots and lots of pre-existing threads related to the "law of believing". Some are in doctrinal, as they relate to the scriptural aspects. Others are in the About The Way forum, as they relate more to the real life impact it had on peoples' lives. There is a search window in the upper right hand corner.
edit: In the original PFAL materials it was not called the law of believing, it was called the magic of believing.
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TLC
It can rain all you want.
I'm merely sayin' that its effect (and/or lack of effect) was not an invisible issue in the 70's.
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skyrider
Would climbing rocks be in this category?
The whole "believing expedition" encompassed supplies, hitch-hiking, two-by-two communication,
positive attitude/believing to press on thru challenging situations and rocky elements, sent out
on your solo...er, duo.......and hitch-hike your butt back to campus without your partner
getting raped.
Heck, wierwille always bloviated about his "believing exploits"......he championed hitch-hiking.
Hell.....he was indeed the biggest spiritual hitch-hiker in all of twi. :anim-smile:/>
.
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TLC
Incidentally, even Geer took a stab at it in the late 80, early 90's.
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