The Way Corps: Victims or Oppressors?

[chockfull]

"I was hungry and thirsty for love without the slightest idea where to find it." -- Acts 29.

I think this issue has been bubbling just under the surface of GSC for years. Not being Corps or ex-Corps, I have no dog in the fight. But a bunch of posts over the last couple of days have really got me thinking about this, so I'm going to throw this out there as a conversation starter.

TWI is an institution. That is, it is an organization with a structure. I think a majority of us got involved in TWI out of a genuine hunger and thirst for righteousness. Unfortunately, we came to an organization that had its own agenda. Those who wanted to go WOW or Corps did so, I think, out of a genuine desire to serve. But "service" was defined by TWI, and especially in the case of those who went Corps, those who wanted to serve became an arm of the organization.

Understanding that we are each ultimately responsible for the things we choose to do, at what point to we stop looking at Corps as "marks" and "victims" of TWI's agenda and start looking at them as enablers, facilitators and perpetrators of it? Or is that the wrong question to ask? Am I using the wrong words? Can you phrase it better?

I am torn between looking at Corps as the epitome of TWI's victims vs. the epitome of what made TWI oppressive in the first place. For me, a conclusion is not required. But as I said, I thought it would make for an interesting conversation.

Victims and oppressors both. The child molesters in today's society were the sexual abuse victims of a decade ago.

At our best mimicking Christ all we did was extend the stay of people in an organization based on lies - plagiarism and sexual swingers.

But hey let me whitewash history in my own mind and convince myself I was different and it was others and the org that were off. Regardless of the truth of that there is an overarching truth I can't get past. As much good as I ever did, I enabled abusers and followed orders so I share their blame.

Yes with respect to TWI I was a victim. I was also an abuser.

Morally I try to reverse that impact by recognizing and refusing false spiritual authority and pointing it out to others.

For all the lurkers - once you decide in your mind these false authorities have no genuine God given authority then it's easier to just say no. No BOD members God did not appoint you and your authority is a facade. So I will no longer accept that God gave you that authority or obey your Pharisaiac mandates.

I wasn't an abuser like them - I didn't do the things they did. I didn't join the clubs of pleasure I wasn't a swinger I didn't do the crap vp did or lcm or rifr. I didn't cheat on my wife abuse alcohol or steal others work. I didn't politically assassinate enemies or lie about people to get them kicked out.

I just obeyed the people who did.

I was a tool.

[MRAP]

RAF posed an excelent question (go back to the original post - we have gotten off thread).

The Way Corp now spans, what, going on 40+ years.

I have posted this over and over: You can not group all corp folk collectively. Early, mid and late corp are so different. I have only speculated what caused the differences but they certainly exist. That statement is made from personal experience with early corp and posts made here on GSC by latter corp.

I gathered alot of heat on this and other threads because I took the corp as a collective, evidently, it is not.

I initially posted back to RAF's question that it was both: victem and oppressor.

There are numerous corp folk who post here and I can understand why they take offense but one must realize the position of the non corp person posting regarding time and place.

The question by RAF is too general though quite appropriate; I was both amazed by my pigeon hole concept of it all and the vicious responses to my comments.

This is not a thread discussion we can entertain unless we specify the corp era.

Given all that stipulation, what say, a discussion worth having or just let the thing go?

[Rocky]

I'm continually amazed at how naive and gullible I must have been.

We ALL were naive and gullible. You are not alone.

I was a tool.

Yes, WE were.

[Raf]

MRAP, This thread has not gone off topic. Please stop saying it has.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Raf

[waysider]

I've noticed that when people intentionally drive a thread off-topic, it doesn't only change the subject being discussed, it also, usually, results in meta-discussion. It gets easier to spot after a while. Tangents can be a good thing if they are being presented genuinely.

Edited March 27, 2016 by waysider

[WordWolf]

With a broad topic, there's room for side-discussions that are still on-topic.

[MRAP]

Raf, this topic has gone off thread = check out your own original post.

I don't appreciate tangents and such: please, if we got something to say, stay on the originally posted thread.

The core opinion I have attempted to relate is that the corp, nearly half a century old, has changed.

Excuse me Mod, I am attmepting to keep things on thread so we can stay on topic, yes, tangents take a life of there own but then it should be a new thread.

Often, I think folks take things off thread because the original topic makes them uncomfortable - that's just an opinion.

It is stupid that a novice such as I should have to state rules I was informed about a year ago on how to converse on GSC.

Given all that stuff, the topic is: The Way Corp, Victem or Oppressor. It certainly seems to me that a whole hellva lot of folks are not willing to comment on this subject and would rather change the subject.

Raf was so correct in his original post = it's a pot stirrer.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Modgellan

[waysider]

The original question has been answered over and over and over again. The answer is not yes/no, black/white, night/day, on/off. Read between the lines.

If it's a site where threads stay on topic you seek, you may want to check out reddit. Nothing there ever goes off topic for at least the first 4 or 5 posts.

[MRAP]

Thanks for providing that bit of buffer there waysider but the corp folk can answer for themselves. I am not even sure the almost 50 years of them (corp) understand past and future corp folk.

I only hope that they all have gone on to lives with their families and can leave all the twi behind.

I pray they re-unite with family, that's so essential, regardless of pride swallowing = good parents and family will just accept you and not throw anything in you face.

Love, especially family love, is a powerfull thing; think about it, we at one time thought twi provide something better than that; now that was screwy.

I am thankfull to twi for a couple of things but to realize what my family had always meant to me, twi taught me a lie and when I came again to my own, they loved me, like the son in Luke.

The emotion I now feel, I can not express in words.

[Raf]

MRAP, Could you point to any posts that do not address the topic of the thread?

[MRAP]

MRAP, Could you point to any posts that do not address the topic of the thread?

Well the majority of posts don't even address (...The Way Corps: Victims or Oppressors?). There's alot about twi but don't directly address the victem/oppressor {?}. Yes, yes, you can probably drag a thought back to the posed question but that's not answering the question you posed - it's a tangent, it's a related issue.

My point: it's a very uncomfortable topic and somewhat unanswerable without first specifying the the era of the 40 year old corp.

I made my peace - in my own thoughts, to the corp. They were both. The early corp folk (that I encountered) don't seem to be doing any posting here (I classify them "mostly" as oppresors) and the later corp folk, whom I only know by reading their posts here on GSC appear to me as victems who were trained to be oppressors.

Raf, I reitterate: the topic was too general yet, appropriate. I don't think there can be a yes/no (victim/oppressor) answer to the question since the corp eras were so different and the folks in any of those corp were so different.

[Bolshevik]

I count all non-corps who followed corps as oppressors.

Does that help?

[waysider]

They were both. So, there you have it. Now we can move on?

edit: I'll include FellowLaborers with that if it will make anyone happy. (I was FL4&5)

Edited April 1, 2016 by waysider

[modcat5]

Well the majority of posts don't even address (...The Way Corps: Victims or Oppressors?). There's alot about twi but don't directly address the victem/oppressor {?}. Yes, yes, you can probably drag a thought back to the posed question but that's not answering the question you posed - it's a tangent, it's a related issue.

My point: it's a very uncomfortable topic and somewhat unanswerable without first specifying the the era of the 40 year old corp.

I made my peace - in my own thoughts, to the corp. They were both. The early corp folk (that I encountered) don't seem to be doing any posting here (I classify them "mostly" as oppresors) and the later corp folk, whom I only know by reading their posts here on GSC appear to me as victems who were trained to be oppressors.

Raf, I reiterate: the topic was too general yet, appropriate. I don't think there can be a yes/no (victim/oppressor) answer to the question since the corp eras were so different and the folks in any of those corp were so different.

Speaking as both Raf and Modcat5: The thread question was open-ended and included an opportunity to reframe the question and answer it accordingly. As such, I see a lot of discussion about how TWI operated, and while those discussions don't directly address the "victim v. oppressor" question, they absolutely do address that question indirectly (by expanding on the "it's more complicated than black-or-white" answer).

So far, I don't see any post on this thread that has derailed the topic. Expanded and explored? Yes. But not derailed.

The exceptions to this observation have been made invisible. They need not be addressed here.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On March 6, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Twinky said:

MRAP, wannabe Corps didn't necessarily intend to give up anything. They may well have really wanted to serve, and serve more effectively. It may be that they'd had a good twig or branch leader (there were some!) who was inspirational. Or maybe they'd just really wanted to serve God better in the communities where they found themselves - personal and professional.

Once in rez, however, the usual trick of moving the goalposts took place. It got to be, "a dog returning to its vomit" if you wanted to return to your community or especially (gasp) to your profession. After all the training and hard work they'd put into getting us to this superior spiritual elite (cough), for us then to throw it away by going back to where we came...

Now some might have returned to exactly where they'd been but others wanted to minister more effectively in their communities. For myself, I have a lot of hard-earned and dearly gained professional experience in a "caring" type profession - I liked working to fight for people's rights and to stand up for the "little man" who was not treated well by people or organisations with a lot of money or power. People in real need. What a great inroad into people's lives I'd had. And I hoped to be able to bring them to the real Hope.

I can't even begin to tell you of the disgust that was heaped on me when I started to apply for work after being in rez. Clearly if I'd gone to flip burgers at MacD's that would have been more acceptable.

There were talented and skilled people in all walks of life that had entered the Corps. Were they given an opportunity to serve in those kinds of roles? No!!!!! What a waste!! Yet these could have been great opportunities to reach out to the needy and desperate. Yeah, like TWI really meant what it said when it said that stuff on the green card. (We really need a vomit icon in the emoticons!)

My experience in this wasn't unique. But you could return to your old community if you were from an elite group that was influential or likely to bring in big money or bring in "big" names or you were part of one of the families that were highly connected in TWI.

Twinky, you are so right!!  I never understood why TWI wasted the talents of its people.  I know back in 1979, my WOW Branch Leader, 

got upset with me when I told him I was leaving IL, and moving back to New York State to attend college.  Many WOWs did stay in their area after their year was up.  But I knew that Lincoln had freed the slaves, and I wanted my freedom after the rigors of my year in the field.  My Branch Leader was ticked that I was leaving, and 

made sure that he put pressure on 

me to stay.   A few months after I left, I found discovered that many of the Wows still in the area, were not doing well.  I blossomed once 

I got to college.  I am thankful for listening to the small voice in my head, and not the Branch Leader's.

 

[T-Bone]

On 11/4/2016 at 11:00 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Twinky, you are so right!!  I never understood why TWI wasted the talents of its people.  I know back in 1979, my WOW Branch Leader, 

got upset with me when I told him I was leaving IL, and moving back to New York State to attend college.  Many WOWs did stay in their area after their year was up.  But I knew that Lincoln had freed the slaves, and I wanted my freedom after the rigors of my year in the field.  My Branch Leader was ticked that I was leaving, and 

made sure that he put pressure on 

me to stay.   A few months after I left, I found discovered that many of the Wows still in the area, were not doing well.  I blossomed once 

I got to college.  I am thankful for listening to the small voice in my head, and not the Branch Leader's.

 

that does say something about the stifling environment in any of TWI's programs that were supposedly a way to accelerate your spiritual growth. people always fared a lot better directing their own journey.

[OldSkool]

I haven't read all six pages. My time frame as corps spans Martindale for my candidate year and apprentice year, and two years in-residence under rosalie. 

I see the way corps as deceived and deceiving others. I see myself in the same light. to be corps you have to enforce the directives sent from leadetship, whether the directive is godly or not.

Personally, I had good intentions and truly wanted to help. I felt way corps was that Avenue that would allow me to help the most. Nothing was what I expected. the program itself was dry, dull, oppressive, and boring. In-residence was the worst. Actually submitting to having structure nearly every minute of my day, and not being allowed to leave seemed like incarceration. 

Upon graduation I was assigned to hq. And it became my job to enforce the caste system in place at hq. Everything from bod directives, to reporting staff attendance at the sts to rosalie. My personal experience as way corps was that I had to disobey godly principle to satisfy the needs of the bod. I served the board of directors no matter how much I tried to rationalize otherwise. I told myself that rosalie and her ilk would pass on and I'd be part of the group to bring godly change. 

I was wrong. I can say that there were a lot of active way corps who felt the same. I'm sad to say they are wrong. other than caring for his people, The Lord has no need for a corporation started by Victor Paul wierwille. God watched over me as way corps, he watches over me now.

God's Word does not return void and twi does sell the bible. it's a matter of dropping the twi dogma. my two cents anyway.

 

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/5/2016 at 0:37 AM, Oakspear said:

It's not either/or, in my view

It depends on what the Corps person did and with what attitude they did it

It depends on what individuals did with the power and authority that they had over other people

From what I read here, some of you Corps grads were on the receiving end of mental abuse that I can't even imagine...but I also observed Corps grads dishing it out and who were (apparently) willing participants in the top-down abuse that originated with Wierwille, and I was lucky enough to know Corps grads who were good people who did nothing but "bless" the lives of those they came in contact with

But you didn't have to be a Corps grad to be a victimizer, to be an abuser of power

I did not go through the Corps (I signed up, participated in Apprentice Corps meetings etc, didn't get my money together and never tried again) but I am not proud to say that I was party to and complicit in abuses as were other non-Corps people. A couple of people who I categorize as those whom I would most like to hit in the face with a hammer were not Corps...you just can't make a blanket statement about a whole class of people

Oak, I think you nailed it.  Most of the Corps people I knew, were kind people who truly wanted to serve God.  However, I met a few who were sick puppies, and expected us non-Corps people to do their bidding.  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/10/2016 at 0:19 PM, Raf said:

Well, despite some false accusations that you may have read, GSC has a very long tradition of trying in good faith to separate the good from the bad, the baby from the bathwater, as it were. Some folks would have you believe that we only exist to bash TWI, but it takes a pretty superficial reading of the site to come to that conclusion. ;)

Raf, you are so right!!  I had some wonderful times in TWI, and met some great people.  In particular, I loved attending the Rock; I could meet up with people that I hadn't seen for a long time.  However, a lot of garbage went on in Way World that so many of us didn't know about.  I am happy that I escaped TWI, but I did enjoy it for a number of years.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/9/2016 at 1:47 AM, Raf said:

You question my authenticity?

Oh no! Whatever shall I do?

Raf, you really are funny!!  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/26/2016 at 10:34 PM, chockfull said:

Victims and oppressors both. The child molesters in today's society were the sexual abuse victims of a decade ago.

At our best mimicking Christ all we did was extend the stay of people in an organization based on lies - plagiarism and sexual swingers.

But hey let me whitewash history in my own mind and convince myself I was different and it was others and the org that were off. Regardless of the truth of that there is an overarching truth I can't get past. As much good as I ever did, I enabled abusers and followed orders so I share their blame.

Yes with respect to TWI I was a victim. I was also an abuser.

Morally I try to reverse that impact by recognizing and refusing false spiritual authority and pointing it out to others.

For all the lurkers - once you decide in your mind these false authorities have no genuine God given authority then it's easier to just say no. No BOD members God did not appoint you and your authority is a facade. So I will no longer accept that God gave you that authority or obey your Pharisaiac mandates.

I wasn't an abuser like them - I didn't do the things they did. I didn't join the clubs of pleasure I wasn't a swinger I didn't do the crap vp did or lcm or rifr. I didn't cheat on my wife abuse alcohol or steal others work. I didn't politically assassinate enemies or lie about people to get them kicked out.

I just obeyed the people who did.

I was a tool.

Chock, I think a lot of us were; I know I was.  If I had known years ago about the garbage TWI did, I would have left a lot sooner than I did.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/27/2016 at 0:17 PM, WordWolf said:

With a broad topic, there's room for side-discussions that are still on-topic.

Yes, finally someone else sees that!!!  Bingo, WW!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 11/26/2016 at 6:39 AM, T-Bone said:

that does say something about the stifling environment in any of TWI's programs that were supposedly a way to accelerate your spiritual growth. people always fared a lot better directing their own journey.

T-Bone, for sure!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/12/2016 at 11:04 AM, waysider said:

I have to interject that what T-Bone has said here resonates loudly with my own personal experience. "Spirit can only speak to spirit" is one of the major stumbling blocks and flaws in the so-called "Great Principle". There's lots of past discussion here if anyone is interested in looking at it in greater detail

The "Keys to Walking by The Spirit" checklist on page 15 of the Advanced Class syllabus. Comical to think about it now, in a sad kind of way. I wonder where VP got this list. Surely he couldn't have authored it himself and included the prerequisite of humility.

The Advanced Class has to have been one of the most depressing two week events I ever experienced during my time in The Way.

Such high expectations. So little realization of them. I want to say it was a waste of time but it was so much more beyond that.

Way, yes!!!  I expected great things from the AC; instead I got a lot of s--t from the JBS.  What a waste of time, and money.  What a huge disappointment it was to me.  After I finished it, some people had the nerve to suggest that I go Corps.  No F-ing way was I going to do that; I joined the Navy instead.