Since this now seems to be critical thinking thread:
If you don't understand how your mind works, others will.
If others know how your mind works, and you don't defend yourself, who's in control of you? It's an uncomfortable but true thought.
PFAL and other classes and practices made a common system for how minds should operate. In a cult there's a large group whose minds were predictably the same.
I think the only sense of freedom, in the cult scenario, is to be on top. (Which is an abusive position by nature). Perhaps that's why fingers point upward in resentment, such as at the Corps.
I've seen in TWI, even teenagers or young people raised by leadership, able to hi-jack the thought system. They know what to say, they know how a wayfer will respond, they get the results. (A vague example)
sometimes threads derail. Sometimes they just detour. A detour is still headed to the same place. It's just getting there in a way that you didn't originally plan. I think a discussion on critical thinking is tangentially related to assessing how to make sense of those who went through the Corps. But let's keep that in mind and try to bring the conversation back, which most of you have endeavored to do.
For as much effort as was put into trying to differentiate "critical thinking" from... well, from "less critical," or "non-critical," thinking I suppose (lol).... I'm almost surprised that there's been nothing else said or aimed towards what "direct revelation" is or isn't.
I kinda presumed from what T-bone said the conditioning became such that when there was none, there was blind obedience to the rules. And when there was some (revelation) claimed, it was actually little more than folk rubber stamping what they did with an excuse for not being "blindly obedient."
Am I seeing what was intended to be said right, or am I still missing something?
For as much effort as was put into trying to differentiate "critical thinking" from... well, from "less critical," or "non-critical," thinking I suppose (lol).... I'm almost surprised that there's been nothing else said or aimed towards what "direct revelation" is or isn't.
I kinda presumed from what T-bone said the conditioning became such that when there was none, there was blind obedience to the rules. And when there was some (revelation) claimed, it was actually little more than folk rubber stamping what they did with an excuse for not being "blindly obedient."
Am I seeing what was intended to be said right, or am I still missing something?
I tend to think that those who first saw PFAL on a Projection film understand these things better. Crazy, ain't it?
Having read and re-read the posts on this thread and it is now quite obvious that all corp folk can not be gathered into one basket, early corp (say the first 5) are/were different then the next 5 and so on. My lesson learned is to stop seeing you all as one bad bunch of apples - that's actually a bit of a relief (only for me). I see that most of you corp folks posting here were not in those first five corp (some are), thus, nothing much to gain on asking for your "credentials and proof".
The anger has definetly subsided for all the corp folk I sponsored, I see it was just wasted money (we have all made "bad" investments), I have now learned to just let it go, they owe me nothing, then or now (shoot, some of you posting here may even be them), that would have been some folks in the 6th and 7th and maybe even 8th corp and some 4th.
I was excited when RAF posted this thread topic and despite my interjections and expected responses, I eventually got some answers to long thought about questions and am relieved and and more able to forgive - actually, it closes out that forgiveness thing for those corp folks.
I did not coin the phrase: rotten to the corp but why so many later corp folk use that saying?
Some of you said (elsewhere) that anger, it think it was fear but they group together, has an up side, well, this thread is an up side to that.
Yes, I am doing stuff here for myself - not for attention but for answers, big answers - and I keep getting those.
I was older than most folks when they came to twi and of course have a harder time dealing with that crap; when you fall into a trap and should have known better, it sticks with you - I can let go stuff that happened earlier in the supposed stupid stage of life.
It's the weekend and am sure there will be numerous posts that I can monitor that will confirm what I have already stated.
Another thing: I did a boot camp (actually 2, Navy and Army) but what those of you who were in the corp, that sounds like a 2-3 year boot camp experience and not just a few months like me, that's rather amazing. Boot camp in the military is not just meant to be physical, it's more meant to be mental and emotional. Just like I saw folks from the early 70's (my boot camp era) and then folks 40 years later come outa boot camp, it was a different experience and different outcome. Thus, the early-mid-late corp are of course going to be differntly indoctrinated.
You corp gals and guys, after reading all the posts actually do seem more like victems rather than oppresors, it seems I experienced mostly oppressors.
I see it both ways, jerks become bigger jerks and those who want to serve become better server's' that's from what I read, not what I experienced.
Having read and re-read the posts on this thread and it is now quite obvious that all corp folk can not be gathered into one basket, early corp (say the first 5) are/were different then the next 5 and so on. My lesson learned is to stop seeing you all as one bad bunch of apples -
<snip>
Thus, the early-mid-late corp are of course going to be differntly indoctrinated.
You corp gals and guys, after reading all the posts actually do seem more like victems rather than oppresors, it seems I experienced mostly oppressors.
I see it both ways, jerks become bigger jerks and those who want to serve become better server's' that's from what I read, not what I experienced.
For as much effort as was put into trying to differentiate "critical thinking" from... well, from "less critical," or "non-critical," thinking I suppose (lol).... I'm almost surprised that there's been nothing else said or aimed towards what "direct revelation" is or isn't.
I kinda presumed from what T-bone said the conditioning became such that when there was none, there was blind obedience to the rules. And when there was some (revelation) claimed, it was actually little more than folk rubber stamping what they did with an excuse for not being "blindly obedient."
In light of Raf's request (in post #104) of keeping on topic - trying to assess what the corps experienced – I'll try to be brief (which for me this length of post is brief >); I like Raf's question in post # 1 "Understanding that we are each ultimately responsible for the things we choose to do, at what point do we stop looking at Corps as "marks" and "victims" of TWI's agenda and start looking at them as enablers, facilitators and perpetrators of it?" hopefully I'll try to converge on that.
Let me just say this about "direct revelation" (some systematic theologies also refer to it as special revelation) – what VP taught in PFAL and the Advanced Class (in my humble opinion) is a whole bunch of gobbledygook that sounds technical but obscures the simple way God revealed something in the Bible; Like God talking to Adam and Eve in the garden; God giving the 10 commandments to Moses; God giving specific instructions to Noah about building an ark; God using a donkey to speak to Balaam; God showing Peter a vision of unclean animals on a sheet (three times!). Now that's direct – is it not!
What PFAL or Advanced Class did they have? VP taught that God can't speak to our brain cells. However, God did manage to communicate with a donkey's brain cells and had the donkey speak to Balaam. And I think some of us in the corps had our hopes up for getting spectacular displays of revelation like that. So we wouldn't have to go thru a litany of spiritual checklists "what was my first thought? Did God already tell me first but I didn't have my ears on? Have I been speaking in tongues enough?" I used to go thru that. That's why the easy route is to follow leadership.
I think someone on Grease Spot has referred to TWI's agenda as being like the secret decoder ring in A Christmas Story; first you have to get the decoder ring; then listen to the Little Orphan Annie Radio broadcast for the encrypted message to decipher; and the deciphered message is nothing more than a crummy commercial "be sure to drink your Ovaltine". In reference to our discussion the recurring commercial message is "take PFAL again".
"Still not seeing the benefits listed on the back of the green card – then take PFAL again! Oh you've taken it 10 times already? Then maybe you're ready for the Advanced Class. So you say you want to live up to your true potential and operate all nine all the time – then go corps! The corps is really moving the Word because they're running PFAL classes back to back!"
I can still hear LCM barking out the parameters for our research paper "don't try to re-invent the wheel, base it on PFAL." When all the commotion erupted after Passing of the Patriarch I remember the solution one person in my corps said he was going to pursue "when I get out on the field I'm going to run PFAL classes like crazy."
Maybe in some regards the corps is to TWI's agenda what the heroin addict is to the methadone program. If you support and promote TWI, become the best little old facilitator you can be – then you'll always have access to the greatness of PFAL because you'll be running PFAL classes back to back.
Maybe in some regards the corps is to TWI's agenda what the heroin addict is to the methadone program. If you support and promote TWI, become the best little old facilitator you can be – then you'll always have access to the greatness of PFAL because you'll be running PFAL classes back to back.
Yeah, T-Bone.....lots to ponder there. Good to see you again.
Sometimes, I view the corps as the inflection point in wierwille's agenda. Clearly, vpee desired
a "cracked-troop force" [he emphasized this many times] who would carry out his orders......and
those orders were to run pfal classes. No questions, no dissent.
VP taught that God can't speak to our brain cells. However, God did manage to communicate with a donkey's brain cells and had the donkey speak to Balaam.
There's much in your post (most of it, it seems) that I'm just not relating well to.
Maybe it's old(er) age and my thinking and perspective has changed so much on some things, that certain less critical or important things have faded.
This line, for instance, escapes me: VP taught that God can't speak to our brain cells.
If he said it, I evidently took it to mean something far different than how you seem to have heard it.
If someone were to call us on the telephone, would they be speaking directly to our brain cells? Maybe yes, maybe not. Depends upon what we think it means. There has to be some channel of communication opened. Likewise for the above statement. In the context of receiving revelation or hearing from God, some avenue or means of communication has to be open. With either the mouth of the donkey or the eyes of Balaam, it was the Lord that first opened it.
Off topic, I'm sure, but one of the first explanations I recall hearing of the advanced class wasn't that it would really teach you how to receive revelation, but that it would help explain what you've already been doing. (Just a thought, for some to ponder...)
And I think some of us in the corps had our hopes up for getting spectacular displays of revelation like that.
Who sold that kind of stuff, or when did it start?
So we wouldn't have to go thru a litany of spiritual checklists "what was my first thought? Did God already tell me first but I didn't have my ears on? Have I been speaking in tongues enough?" I used to go thru that.
That sounds like lcm talking.
That's why the easy route is to follow leadership.
Easy enough, I suppose. But holy cow... a replacement for walking by the spirit?
No wonder there is a thread here discussing corps(e) as victims or oppressors.
I can still hear LCM barking out the parameters for our research paper "don't try to re-invent the wheel, base it on PFAL."
No wonder the (few) research papers I reviewed were so crappy.
If you support and promote TWI, become the best little old facilitator you can be – then you'll...
catch the brass ring, and... opps. I mean, catch the gold dove, and get ordained!
(sorry... I couldn't resist a bit of cynicism.)
sadly, it seems the "I have a class to offer" syndrome still carries on through many of the offshoots (or at least those that "have a class" to offer.)
I have to interject that what T-Bone has said here resonates loudly with my own personal experience. "Spirit can only speak to spirit" is one of the major stumbling blocks and flaws in the so-called "Great Principle". There's lots of past discussion here if anyone is interested in looking at it in greater detail
The "Keys to Walking by The Spirit" checklist on page 15 of the Advanced Class syllabus. Comical to think about it now, in a sad kind of way. I wonder where VP got this list. Surely he couldn't have authored it himself and included the prerequisite of humility.
The Advanced Class has to have been one of the most depressing two week events I ever experienced during my time in The Way.
Such high expectations. So little realization of them. I want to say it was a waste of time but it was so much more beyond that.
For what it's worth: I didn't answer TLC's question on direct revelation because, being an atheist, I have no answer that would not be considered disrespectful if uttered aloud. You know what I think about direct revelation. ;)
For what it's worth: I didn't answer TLC's question on direct revelation because, being an atheist, I have no answer that would not be considered disrespectful if uttered aloud. You know what I think about direct revelation. ;)/>
(is there a thread title on that one? . . . I would be interested reading that viewpoint pertaining to TWI)
For a few years, wierwille's corps helped to put some structure and strength to twi, but as the corps
numbers grew.......and some opportunists, jerks and nimwads became certifiable corps grads.....
the twi-experiment pinnacled [1978] and began rapidly nose-diving. One could easily make the case
of multiple factors for twi's quick demise:
1) The wierwille factor: plagiarism, predator, pharisee, opportunist, bully, deceiver, etc.
2) Vpee's brother, Harry, died in the fall of 1977 and, partly, kept vpw in parameters
3) With each passing year, corps grads were challenged with realities of life, children, careers
4) By 1978, twi reached its downward inflection point......more corps grads were dissenting
5) More legalistic language and measures were instituted to STOP the growing exodus
6) Bubbling underneath the surface, corps grads AND adv class grads tired of twi's confinement
Corps came in all sizes, shapes, colors, backgrounds, interests, etc......NO MONOLITHIC CORE.
Anyone trying to paint this group as a bunch of "brown-shirts" didn't see what I experienced.
The inflection point does NOT give credence to twi's apex as some sort of "spiritual pinnacle"
but graphs a growing trend of involvement before the sudden downturn.
.
Hi Sky – your posts always give me a lot to think about – I love the details and overviews; your "inflection point" point /> was a little difficult for me to grasp at first – but after a quick study on the old Internetia and mulling over your entire post I think I get it now. I tend to view the corps program as mostly one-sided – driven by leadership – whipping the new recruits into a crack troop.
But with you bringing all the dynamics of people's lives into the equation I see a different thing – maybe not always as rigid as a boot camp with the attendant drill sergeant – but sometimes a ragtag team of dogs and cats and one pain-in-the-azz animal wrangler… Me? I wasn't a Pitbull bossy type; not really a Border Collie pastor type either; think I was more of a Silver Tabby Cat type – I will LET you lead me (and don't think i'm a pushover or i might just hack up a hairball in your direction).
Back to the "inflection point" – I found a definition in a business dictionary that may expand on that –
strategic inflection point:the time of transition of a company's competitive position that requires the company change the current path and adapt to the new situation or risk declining profits.
I really appreciate your 6 point overview of TWI's quick demise – it got me doing some homework for extra credit (more catnip)!
There's much in your post (most of it, it seems) that I'm just not relating well to.
Maybe it's old(er) age and my thinking and perspective has changed so much on some things, that certain less critical or important things have faded.
This line, for instance, escapes me: VP taught that God can't speak to our brain cells.
If he said it, I evidently took it to mean something far different than how you seem to have heard it.
If someone were to call us on the telephone, would they be speaking directly to our brain cells? Maybe yes, maybe not. Depends upon what we think it means. There has to be some channel of communication opened. Likewise for the above statement. In the context of receiving revelation or hearing from God, some avenue or means of communication has to be open. With either the mouth of the donkey or the eyes of Balaam, it was the Lord that first opened it.
That's not how vpw presented it. He said 2 different things, and it's possible to conflate
them because he didn't separate them topically. (Possibly he didn't understand or possibly he
just didn't care and focused on his delivery.)
He said that "God, who is the Holy Spirit, can only give that which He is, so he gives spirit."
This is easy to disprove, so he said it in pfal but didn't say it elsewhere I'm remember.
(If anyone has a copy of "Jesus Christ is not God" handy, please check page 130,
which may have included it.)
As Raf pointed out on this subject, God gave manna-God is NOT manna.
The other thing was vpw saying that "God is Spirit, and God can only communicate with that which He is,"
which is why he invented his supposed Great Principle. It's even recorded in the Orange Book.
"God being Spirit can only speak to what He is. God cannot speak to the natural human mind... Things in the natural realm may be known by the five senses - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. But God is Spirit and, therefore, cannot speak to brain cells; God cannot speak to a person's mind. It is a law and God never oversteps His own laws."
(page 78.)
Thus, his supposed Great Principle:
"God, who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind.
Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act."
So, according to vpw, it is IMPOSSIBLE for God Almighty, Holy Spirit, to communicate to a human mind,
because "it is a law and God never oversteps His own laws."
Ok, how do we get revelation?
Your own holy spirit communicates to your human mind.
Wait-he just said that's IMPOSSIBLE.
You probably don't remember it that vividly because it was f'ing stupid.
I'm off on another tangent.....I tend to think Wierwille may have taken the Great Principle illustration from some source he didn't fully understand. (not that it actually made sense, anyhow.) I say this because, if you look closely at the illustration, there are three individual lines encasing it. This leads me to suspect the originator may have been a trinitarian and incorporated this into the design much like The Way logo features an open Bible.
For as much effort as was put into trying to differentiate "critical thinking" from... well, from "less critical," or "non-critical," thinking I suppose (lol).... I'm almost surprised that there's been nothing else said or aimed towards what "direct revelation" is or isn't.
I kinda presumed from what T-bone said the conditioning became such that when there was none, there was blind obedience to the rules. And when there was some (revelation) claimed, it was actually little more than folk rubber stamping what they did with an excuse for not being "blindly obedient."
Am I seeing what was intended to be said right, or am I still missing something?
Perhaps you're overthinking this /> . Though it may seem tedious in wanting to differentiate between critical and non-critical thinking – it may just be a matter of fine tuning one's concept of the thought process.
TWI tended to oversimplify certain things especially when it came to matters of the mind. One of my favorite Sunday Night Teaching Tapes used to beCarnal versus Spiritual – on it vp puts forth an amazing claim - countries without Christ do not invent – and he basically threw critical and creative thinking out the window suggesting inventions or any advancement of science came by revelation to a believer. (i am pleased to report that I have since kissed that stupidity goodbye a long time ago).
Back in the day that may explain why most way believers could not differentiate between critical (or even non-critical) thinking and revelation. And just in case you thought you were smart enough to figure out things – vp would throw a whopper in the mix – something like spiritual knowledge (revelation) cannot be analyzed – it can only be ascertained; that was a favorite of his to use in the Advanced Class – and I think mentioned in the Blue Book too….hmmmm if we got the Bible by revelation (Galatians 1:12) – then I wonder what is the point in studying it, looking up the words in the original languages, comparing verses that seem to address the same topic - if you can't analyze it. />
you've probably used a critical thinking process in many different situations without realizing you're doing that. I bet a lot of people do. Say you're going to buy a used car. Do you take the used car salesman's word for it that the car is mechanically sound, has not had any issues, and has never been in an accident? If you're a smart consumer I would think you'd want to bring the vehicle to a mechanic you trust and have them check it out and maybe check the Vehicle Identification Number with databases to see if it was ever in an accident or maybe recovered from a flood.
Or if you're going to buy a new car – again do you just go on the snazzy TV ads or just what the new cars sales rep says? I think most smart consumers do what I do – read up on consumer reports concerning the make and model I want, check websites like Kelly Blue Book for reviews by experts and others who own the same make/model; maybe even talk to folks where I work who own or have owned the same type vehicle. I want to hear it all – the good, the bad, so I can decide if that is truly the right car for me.
When it comes to buying into anything TWI offers – I think a PFAL "consumer" may have experienced something that approaches this manner of critical thinking but it tends to get short-circuited by a "well-meaning qualified sales rep" (someone who may be a little higher up in the way's hierarchy). So if a newbie is asking about the benefits of PFAL you could bet your bottom dollar whoever is drooling over snagging them for an upcoming class the "sales rep" will make sure they only hear good things - - and from only standing grads. Or if someone is interested in the corps program, by now it's a given that you ask any corps grad in good standing what's it like - because we all know a tripped out grad is a tripped out grad – whether PFAL grad or corps grad – and they were talked out of the word by devil spirits – they're lower than low and can't be trusted on any information they share.
And speaking of buying a car – some states have a vehicle lemon law that protects/helps consumers who buy a vehicle with recurring problems of the vehicle – repeatedly it fails to operate the way it should. Imagine if that could apply with PFAL. TWI would have gone broke; but any product complaints of PFAL principles not working – the "sales reps" are trained to issue the standard line "failure due to operator error" – after all nothing wrong with PFAL now is there /> .
"TWI tended to oversimplify certain things especially when it came to matters of the mind. One of my favorite Sunday Night Teaching Tapes used to be Carnal versus Spiritual – on it vp puts forth an amazing claim - countries without Christ do not invent – and he basically threw critical and creative thinking out the window suggesting inventions or any advancement of science came by revelation to a believer. (i am pleased to report that I have since kissed that stupidity goodbye a long time ago)."
I don't recall that specific teaching. However, I do recall hearing that inventions and major advancements/developments can only come from the spirit realm. (Might have been in the A.C.... Too long ago to remember where, exactly) I'm continually amazed at how naive and gullible I must have been.
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waysider
Responding to this: "I am quite certain this forum thread will be offensive to some (depends on your circle quad) because some folks out there held corp folk in highest esteem (in some ways I still d
penworks
I think this is an important topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Disclosure: I am a grad of the 2nd Corps who knew Wierwille personally. I was a limb leader's wife for a time. I was on the research team
GeorgeStGeorge
I haven't had this much fun since the mid-2000's, when we used to get trolls routinely. Always insinuating, always deflecting, eventually disappearing (occasionally returning with a different screen
skyrider
There's nothing more efficient or more practical than......the church pew.
* No need for 12-man hours of labor to do set-up EVERY TIME.
* No need for people to get off work early to string chairs.
* No need to turn off lighting to see well-worn indentations in carpet.
* No strings, no squabbling, no hassles, no problems.
BUT if you are attempting to establish something counterpoint to the mainstream church,
then you enlist a workforce of volunteers who forever are in search of meeting rooms,
clubhouse venues, motel boardrooms, park shelters, etc. to gather followers.
Heck....if twi wasn't so driven to centralize power and control,
they could have easily spent some of those millions and millions
to build "small, practical BRCs" in those limb cities...with pews.
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Bolshevik
Since this now seems to be critical thinking thread:
If you don't understand how your mind works, others will.
If others know how your mind works, and you don't defend yourself, who's in control of you? It's an uncomfortable but true thought.
PFAL and other classes and practices made a common system for how minds should operate. In a cult there's a large group whose minds were predictably the same.
I think the only sense of freedom, in the cult scenario, is to be on top. (Which is an abusive position by nature). Perhaps that's why fingers point upward in resentment, such as at the Corps.
I've seen in TWI, even teenagers or young people raised by leadership, able to hi-jack the thought system. They know what to say, they know how a wayfer will respond, they get the results. (A vague example)
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Raf
sometimes threads derail. Sometimes they just detour. A detour is still headed to the same place. It's just getting there in a way that you didn't originally plan. I think a discussion on critical thinking is tangentially related to assessing how to make sense of those who went through the Corps. But let's keep that in mind and try to bring the conversation back, which most of you have endeavored to do.
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TLC
For as much effort as was put into trying to differentiate "critical thinking" from... well, from "less critical," or "non-critical," thinking I suppose (lol).... I'm almost surprised that there's been nothing else said or aimed towards what "direct revelation" is or isn't.
I kinda presumed from what T-bone said the conditioning became such that when there was none, there was blind obedience to the rules. And when there was some (revelation) claimed, it was actually little more than folk rubber stamping what they did with an excuse for not being "blindly obedient."
Am I seeing what was intended to be said right, or am I still missing something?
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Bolshevik
I tend to think that those who first saw PFAL on a Projection film understand these things better. Crazy, ain't it?
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MRAP
Having read and re-read the posts on this thread and it is now quite obvious that all corp folk can not be gathered into one basket, early corp (say the first 5) are/were different then the next 5 and so on. My lesson learned is to stop seeing you all as one bad bunch of apples - that's actually a bit of a relief (only for me). I see that most of you corp folks posting here were not in those first five corp (some are), thus, nothing much to gain on asking for your "credentials and proof".
The anger has definetly subsided for all the corp folk I sponsored, I see it was just wasted money (we have all made "bad" investments), I have now learned to just let it go, they owe me nothing, then or now (shoot, some of you posting here may even be them), that would have been some folks in the 6th and 7th and maybe even 8th corp and some 4th.
I was excited when RAF posted this thread topic and despite my interjections and expected responses, I eventually got some answers to long thought about questions and am relieved and and more able to forgive - actually, it closes out that forgiveness thing for those corp folks.
I did not coin the phrase: rotten to the corp but why so many later corp folk use that saying?
Some of you said (elsewhere) that anger, it think it was fear but they group together, has an up side, well, this thread is an up side to that.
Yes, I am doing stuff here for myself - not for attention but for answers, big answers - and I keep getting those.
I was older than most folks when they came to twi and of course have a harder time dealing with that crap; when you fall into a trap and should have known better, it sticks with you - I can let go stuff that happened earlier in the supposed stupid stage of life.
It's the weekend and am sure there will be numerous posts that I can monitor that will confirm what I have already stated.
Another thing: I did a boot camp (actually 2, Navy and Army) but what those of you who were in the corp, that sounds like a 2-3 year boot camp experience and not just a few months like me, that's rather amazing. Boot camp in the military is not just meant to be physical, it's more meant to be mental and emotional. Just like I saw folks from the early 70's (my boot camp era) and then folks 40 years later come outa boot camp, it was a different experience and different outcome. Thus, the early-mid-late corp are of course going to be differntly indoctrinated.
You corp gals and guys, after reading all the posts actually do seem more like victems rather than oppresors, it seems I experienced mostly oppressors.
I see it both ways, jerks become bigger jerks and those who want to serve become better server's' that's from what I read, not what I experienced.
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skyrider
Thanks, MRAP.
Have a good weekend.
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T-Bone
In light of Raf's request (in post #104) of keeping on topic - trying to assess what the corps experienced – I'll try to be brief (which for me this length of post is brief
>); I like Raf's question in post # 1 "Understanding that we are each ultimately responsible for the things we choose to do, at what point do we stop looking at Corps as "marks" and "victims" of TWI's agenda and start looking at them as enablers, facilitators and perpetrators of it?" hopefully I'll try to converge on that.
Let me just say this about "direct revelation" (some systematic theologies also refer to it as special revelation) – what VP taught in PFAL and the Advanced Class (in my humble opinion) is a whole bunch of gobbledygook that sounds technical but obscures the simple way God revealed something in the Bible; Like God talking to Adam and Eve in the garden; God giving the 10 commandments to Moses; God giving specific instructions to Noah about building an ark; God using a donkey to speak to Balaam; God showing Peter a vision of unclean animals on a sheet (three times!). Now that's direct – is it not!
What PFAL or Advanced Class did they have? VP taught that God can't speak to our brain cells. However, God did manage to communicate with a donkey's brain cells and had the donkey speak to Balaam. And I think some of us in the corps had our hopes up for getting spectacular displays of revelation like that. So we wouldn't have to go thru a litany of spiritual checklists "what was my first thought? Did God already tell me first but I didn't have my ears on? Have I been speaking in tongues enough?" I used to go thru that. That's why the easy route is to follow leadership.
I think someone on Grease Spot has referred to TWI's agenda as being like the secret decoder ring in A Christmas Story; first you have to get the decoder ring; then listen to the Little Orphan Annie Radio broadcast for the encrypted message to decipher; and the deciphered message is nothing more than a crummy commercial "be sure to drink your Ovaltine". In reference to our discussion the recurring commercial message is "take PFAL again".
"Still not seeing the benefits listed on the back of the green card – then take PFAL again! Oh you've taken it 10 times already? Then maybe you're ready for the Advanced Class. So you say you want to live up to your true potential and operate all nine all the time – then go corps! The corps is really moving the Word because they're running PFAL classes back to back!"
I can still hear LCM barking out the parameters for our research paper "don't try to re-invent the wheel, base it on PFAL." When all the commotion erupted after Passing of the Patriarch I remember the solution one person in my corps said he was going to pursue "when I get out on the field I'm going to run PFAL classes like crazy."
Maybe in some regards the corps is to TWI's agenda what the heroin addict is to the methadone program. If you support and promote TWI, become the best little old facilitator you can be – then you'll always have access to the greatness of PFAL because you'll be running PFAL classes back to back.
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DontWorryBeHappy
T-Bone! Great to read you again! It's been a while. Love to Tonto!
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T-Bone
Yo Don't Worry ! I'll pass it on to Tonto...all the best to ya!
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skyrider
Yeah, T-Bone.....lots to ponder there. Good to see you again.
Sometimes, I view the corps as the inflection point in wierwille's agenda. Clearly, vpee desired
a "cracked-troop force" [he emphasized this many times] who would carry out his orders......and
those orders were to run pfal classes. No questions, no dissent.
Note: Inflection Point
For a few years, wierwille's corps helped to put some structure and strength to twi, but as the corps
numbers grew.......and some opportunists, jerks and nimwads became certifiable corps grads.....
the twi-experiment pinnacled [1978] and began rapidly nose-diving. One could easily make the case
of multiple factors for twi's quick demise:
1) The wierwille factor: plagiarism, predator, pharisee, opportunist, bully, deceiver, etc.
2) Vpee's brother, Harry, died in the fall of 1977 and, partly, kept vpw in parameters
3) With each passing year, corps grads were challenged with realities of life, children, careers
4) By 1978, twi reached its downward inflection point......more corps grads were dissenting
5) More legalistic language and measures were instituted to STOP the growing exodus
6) Bubbling underneath the surface, corps grads AND adv class grads tired of twi's confinement
Corps came in all sizes, shapes, colors, backgrounds, interests, etc......NO MONOLITHIC CORE.
Anyone trying to paint this group as a bunch of "brown-shirts" didn't see what I experienced.
The inflection point does NOT give credence to twi's apex as some sort of "spiritual pinnacle"
but graphs a growing trend of involvement before the sudden downturn.
.
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skyrider
And.....
The angel Gabriel told Zacharias what was going to come to pass even though Zacharias believed NOT
his [ie - angel/God's] words which would be fulfilled [Luke 1:20].
Guess that "law of believing" does NOT work with a mathematical exactness every time.......ppffffftttt.
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TLC
There's much in your post (most of it, it seems) that I'm just not relating well to.
Maybe it's old(er) age and my thinking and perspective has changed so much on some things, that certain less critical or important things have faded.
This line, for instance, escapes me: VP taught that God can't speak to our brain cells.
If he said it, I evidently took it to mean something far different than how you seem to have heard it.
If someone were to call us on the telephone, would they be speaking directly to our brain cells? Maybe yes, maybe not. Depends upon what we think it means. There has to be some channel of communication opened. Likewise for the above statement. In the context of receiving revelation or hearing from God, some avenue or means of communication has to be open. With either the mouth of the donkey or the eyes of Balaam, it was the Lord that first opened it.
Off topic, I'm sure, but one of the first explanations I recall hearing of the advanced class wasn't that it would really teach you how to receive revelation, but that it would help explain what you've already been doing. (Just a thought, for some to ponder...)
Who sold that kind of stuff, or when did it start?
That sounds like lcm talking.
Easy enough, I suppose. But holy cow... a replacement for walking by the spirit?
No wonder there is a thread here discussing corps(e) as victims or oppressors.
No wonder the (few) research papers I reviewed were so crappy.
catch the brass ring, and... opps. I mean, catch the gold dove, and get ordained!
(sorry... I couldn't resist a bit of cynicism.)
sadly, it seems the "I have a class to offer" syndrome still carries on through many of the offshoots (or at least those that "have a class" to offer.)
run 'em again. over and over and over and over...
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waysider
I have to interject that what T-Bone has said here resonates loudly with my own personal experience. "Spirit can only speak to spirit" is one of the major stumbling blocks and flaws in the so-called "Great Principle". There's lots of past discussion here if anyone is interested in looking at it in greater detail
The "Keys to Walking by The Spirit" checklist on page 15 of the Advanced Class syllabus. Comical to think about it now, in a sad kind of way. I wonder where VP got this list. Surely he couldn't have authored it himself and included the prerequisite of humility.
The Advanced Class has to have been one of the most depressing two week events I ever experienced during my time in The Way.
Such high expectations. So little realization of them. I want to say it was a waste of time but it was so much more beyond that.
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Raf
For what it's worth: I didn't answer TLC's question on direct revelation because, being an atheist, I have no answer that would not be considered disrespectful if uttered aloud. You know what I think about direct revelation. ;)
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TLC
Well, considering that you brought it up, would you mind elaborating a bit on what those "high expectations" were?
(Because I'm getting the impression that the expectations for it not only varied greatly, but probably changed significantly over the years.)
Perhaps a new thread for it, eh?
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Bolshevik
I was somewhere around New Knoxville on the edge of a cornfield when the drugs began to take hold . . .
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Bolshevik
(is there a thread title on that one? . . . I would be interested reading that viewpoint pertaining to TWI)
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T-Bone
Hi Sky – your posts always give me a lot to think about – I love the details and overviews; your "inflection point" point
/> was a little difficult for me to grasp at first – but after a quick study on the old Internetia and mulling over your entire post I think I get it now. I tend to view the corps program as mostly one-sided – driven by leadership – whipping the new recruits into a crack troop.
But with you bringing all the dynamics of people's lives into the equation I see a different thing – maybe not always as rigid as a boot camp with the attendant drill sergeant – but sometimes a ragtag team of dogs and cats and one pain-in-the-azz animal wrangler… Me? I wasn't a Pitbull bossy type; not really a Border Collie pastor type either; think I was more of a Silver Tabby Cat type – I will LET you lead me (and don't think i'm a pushover or i might just hack up a hairball in your direction).
Back to the "inflection point" – I found a definition in a business dictionary that may expand on that –
strategic inflection point: the time of transition of a company's competitive position that requires the company change the current path and adapt to the new situation or risk declining profits.
I really appreciate your 6 point overview of TWI's quick demise – it got me doing some homework for extra credit (more catnip)!
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WordWolf
That's not how vpw presented it. He said 2 different things, and it's possible to conflate
them because he didn't separate them topically. (Possibly he didn't understand or possibly he
just didn't care and focused on his delivery.)
He said that "God, who is the Holy Spirit, can only give that which He is, so he gives spirit."
This is easy to disprove, so he said it in pfal but didn't say it elsewhere I'm remember.
(If anyone has a copy of "Jesus Christ is not God" handy, please check page 130,
which may have included it.)
As Raf pointed out on this subject, God gave manna-God is NOT manna.
The other thing was vpw saying that "God is Spirit, and God can only communicate with that which He is,"
which is why he invented his supposed Great Principle. It's even recorded in the Orange Book.
"God being Spirit can only speak to what He is. God cannot speak to the natural human mind... Things in the natural realm may be known by the five senses - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. But God is Spirit and, therefore, cannot speak to brain cells; God cannot speak to a person's mind. It is a law and God never oversteps His own laws."
(page 78.)
Thus, his supposed Great Principle:
"God, who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind.
Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act."
So, according to vpw, it is IMPOSSIBLE for God Almighty, Holy Spirit, to communicate to a human mind,
because "it is a law and God never oversteps His own laws."
Ok, how do we get revelation?
Your own holy spirit communicates to your human mind.
Wait-he just said that's IMPOSSIBLE.
You probably don't remember it that vividly because it was f'ing stupid.
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waysider
I'm off on another tangent.....I tend to think Wierwille may have taken the Great Principle illustration from some source he didn't fully understand. (not that it actually made sense, anyhow.) I say this because, if you look closely at the illustration, there are three individual lines encasing it. This leads me to suspect the originator may have been a trinitarian and incorporated this into the design much like The Way logo features an open Bible.
OK, back to topic.
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TLC
You're probably right. As mentioned previously, I've probably long since "grown away" from some number of things...
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T-Bone
Perhaps you're overthinking this
/> . Though it may seem tedious in wanting to differentiate between critical and non-critical thinking – it may just be a matter of fine tuning one's concept of the thought process.
TWI tended to oversimplify certain things especially when it came to matters of the mind. One of my favorite Sunday Night Teaching Tapes used to be Carnal versus Spiritual – on it vp puts forth an amazing claim - countries without Christ do not invent – and he basically threw critical and creative thinking out the window suggesting inventions or any advancement of science came by revelation to a believer. (i am pleased to report that I have since kissed that stupidity goodbye a long time ago).
Back in the day that may explain why most way believers could not differentiate between critical (or even non-critical) thinking and revelation. And just in case you thought you were smart enough to figure out things – vp would throw a whopper in the mix – something like spiritual knowledge (revelation) cannot be analyzed – it can only be ascertained; that was a favorite of his to use in the Advanced Class – and I think mentioned in the Blue Book too….hmmmm if we got the Bible by revelation (Galatians 1:12) – then I wonder what is the point in studying it, looking up the words in the original languages, comparing verses that seem to address the same topic - if you can't analyze it.
/>
you've probably used a critical thinking process in many different situations without realizing you're doing that. I bet a lot of people do. Say you're going to buy a used car. Do you take the used car salesman's word for it that the car is mechanically sound, has not had any issues, and has never been in an accident? If you're a smart consumer I would think you'd want to bring the vehicle to a mechanic you trust and have them check it out and maybe check the Vehicle Identification Number with databases to see if it was ever in an accident or maybe recovered from a flood.
Or if you're going to buy a new car – again do you just go on the snazzy TV ads or just what the new cars sales rep says? I think most smart consumers do what I do – read up on consumer reports concerning the make and model I want, check websites like Kelly Blue Book for reviews by experts and others who own the same make/model; maybe even talk to folks where I work who own or have owned the same type vehicle. I want to hear it all – the good, the bad, so I can decide if that is truly the right car for me.
When it comes to buying into anything TWI offers – I think a PFAL "consumer" may have experienced something that approaches this manner of critical thinking but it tends to get short-circuited by a "well-meaning qualified sales rep" (someone who may be a little higher up in the way's hierarchy). So if a newbie is asking about the benefits of PFAL you could bet your bottom dollar whoever is drooling over snagging them for an upcoming class the "sales rep" will make sure they only hear good things - - and from only standing grads. Or if someone is interested in the corps program, by now it's a given that you ask any corps grad in good standing what's it like - because we all know a tripped out grad is a tripped out grad – whether PFAL grad or corps grad – and they were talked out of the word by devil spirits – they're lower than low and can't be trusted on any information they share.
And speaking of buying a car – some states have a vehicle lemon law that protects/helps consumers who buy a vehicle with recurring problems of the vehicle – repeatedly it fails to operate the way it should. Imagine if that could apply with PFAL. TWI would have gone broke; but any product complaints of PFAL principles not working – the "sales reps" are trained to issue the standard line "failure due to operator error" – after all nothing wrong with PFAL now is there
/> .
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waysider
"TWI tended to oversimplify certain things especially when it came to matters of the mind. One of my favorite Sunday Night Teaching Tapes used to be Carnal versus Spiritual – on it vp puts forth an amazing claim - countries without Christ do not invent – and he basically threw critical and creative thinking out the window suggesting inventions or any advancement of science came by revelation to a believer. (i am pleased to report that I have since kissed that stupidity goodbye a long time ago)."
I don't recall that specific teaching. However, I do recall hearing that inventions and major advancements/developments can only come from the spirit realm. (Might have been in the A.C.... Too long ago to remember where, exactly) I'm continually amazed at how naive and gullible I must have been.
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