I think what I was trying to say this morning is that we are all indeed responsible for our actions, but I think we are responsible for our reactions as well. We interact with people who have been affected differently by their life's experiences, not just during their time in TWI, but since then as well. As someone who escaped without pain, who am I to judge someone who was affected more deeply than I? Who am I to judge someone who has not yet worked through the pain, who has yet to "let it go," as we were so often admonished?
It all ties in together. I asked about Corps as victims or oppressors, but I said nothing about those victimized or oppressed BY Corps. Perhaps some discourtesy is understandable when it comes to people who have yet to work through their anger at being the victim of TWI. That doesn't excuse anything, but it does help explain it.
Knowing VPW intended harm and viewed material for his own self-centered purposes makes the doctrines and practices less muddy in hindsight.
While that might apply to some things, it would be a blanket statement (not to mention less than kind, unfair, judgmental, dishonest, or even cruel) to say it was true of every doctrine or practice that he taught or lived. (Not that I think you or anyone else said or meant that, I'm just sayin'.) The difficulty always resides in honestly separating the good from the bad.
Well, despite some false accusations that you may have read, GSC has a very long tradition of trying in good faith to separate the good from the bad, the baby from the bathwater, as it were. Some folks would have you believe that we only exist to bash TWI, but it takes a pretty superficial reading of the site to come to that conclusion. ;)
I don't know if this is off topic. It seems like it is somehow related, at least to me.
When I finally came to accept that I had been duped, I wasn't angry or bitter. On the contrary, I felt a sense of relief. It suddenly all made sense to me. I've said before, I regret anything and everything I did that caused someone to take the class or become involved with The Way. I apologize for that. I was never a mean or overbearing type of person, before, during or after my involvement. This, in itself, created quite a bit of inner conflict for me because I couldn't bring myself to do some of the things TWI required of me, such as expel someone from the class for minor tardiness infractions without first considering their personal circumstances. There are lots of other examples, of course. I think we all have several we could cite without me being specific.
On a related note: We are all ultimately responsible for our own actions. However, and I've said this many times, sometimes those actions were the result of pretense and fraud. My often cited analogy is this: You want to buy a used car so you shop for the best deal. Mileage is a big deciding factor for you. You find one that fits your requirements and it has low mileage so you buy it. The decision was yours. Later, you discover that the seller had doctored the odometer to give a false, low reading. They must share in the responsibility for the decision you made. Lots of us became involved with The Way or the various training programs because we based our decisions on information that was fraudulently presented to us by the organization. Understanding how it all blends together is what alleviates the anger and bitterness and brings the sense of relief.
I think what I was trying to say this morning is that we are all indeed responsible for our actions, but I think we are responsible for our reactions as well. We interact with people who have been affected differently by their life's experiences, not just during their time in TWI, but since then as well. As someone who escaped without pain, who am I to judge someone who was affected more deeply than I? Who am I to judge someone who has not yet worked through the pain, who has yet to "let it go," as we were so often admonished?
It all ties in together. I asked about Corps as victims or oppressors, but I said nothing about those victimized or oppressed BY Corps. Perhaps some discourtesy is understandable when it comes to people who have yet to work through their anger at being the victim of TWI. That doesn't excuse anything, but it does help explain it.
Or am I off base?
Escaped isn't necessarily a bad or a wrong word, but I'm not so sure that it's necessarily the right word for everyone. (Some were fired, but I shant say who... lol.)
Considering that even in a physical sense certain times of rapid growth are not without pain, perhaps it could be viewed by some folk that their pain of separation was, at least in part, a result of significant growth. You look back, and see tremendous learning... but not without pain, and not without questions still looking for answers. Could, moreover, should it have been much better than it was? Absolutely. But life can't be lived in the rear view mirror. God was, is, and always will be a tremendous teacher. At some point in time, we have to reconcile with the reality of who the real teacher was (and is), and whether or not we've learned what (or all that) we could or should have learned.
Maybe some can look back and say, they grew away from twi.
While that might apply to some things, it would be a blanket statement (not to mention less than kind, unfair, judgmental, dishonest, or even cruel) to say it was true of every doctrine or practice that he taught or lived. (Not that I think you or anyone else said or meant that, I'm just sayin'.) The difficulty always resides in honestly separating the good from the bad.
Honestly, I think I made a fair and factual statement to say or suggest that ALL doctrines taught and applied VIA VPW and his ministry were picked for selfish/abusive intent.
IF someone is able separate, honestly, GOOD from that man's use of any doctrine, make that thread. I can't, honestly.
If VPW taught that breathing air is good for your health, he had an ulterior motive. Has nothing to do with the fact breathing air is good for your health. And there's no better way to interpret the mess that is TWI than by viewing VPW through that lens. To focus on the doctrine alone or in any other way is dishonest. Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, honestly.
Honestly, I think I made a fair and factual statement to say or suggest that ALL doctrines taught and applied VIA VPW and his ministry were picked for selfish/abusive intent.
IF someone is able separate, honestly, GOOD from that man's use of any doctrine, make that thread. I can't, honestly.
If VPW taught that breathing air is good for your health, he had an ulterior motive. Has nothing to do with the fact breathing air is good for your health. And there's no better way to interpret the mess that is TWI than by viewing VPW through that lens. To focus on the doctrine alone or in any other way is dishonest. Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, honestly.
How well do you think you knew the man, Bolshevik?
There is a fine line between accepting responsibility for your actions and assigning guilt to yourself because of them. I don't know what to say to someone like penworks or skyrider. To the very very limited extent to which I was in your shoes, I see my past actions as something I'm ashamed of. "I was only following orders," implementing the rigid rules that I wrongly believed to be reflective of godliness. You're two minutes late to a PFAL class? Sorry. I can't let you in. You'll have to take it next time it's offered (there was no official next time). And no, you don't get your money back, but you don't have to pay again either!
How loving.
Wanted to add.....
I don't know about other areas or other classes.....but MANY TIMES
we did not abide by twi's rigid rules. I could cite dozens and dozens
of times when we thumbed our noses at twi's instructions and mandates.
Rigid Rules in the corps program and at HQ....yes!
Rigid Rules on the field, by me?
Like I've said many times, I was a rebel and should NEVER have gone corps.
Not quite sure how I lasted all those years and even one of those deeply
despised limb coordinators.
More nuance.....
Hell.....I've shared how I circumvented stringing chairs in the BRC.
I think responsibility is one of the key elements of this topic. In that regard I take full responsibility for joining, supporting and promoting TWI. As far as coming to terms with my involvement for twelve years it has been a mixed bag of emotions and thoughts.
I was frustrated that I was not able to persuade folks to leave TWI once I reached the point of no return. I never was a good salesman (I didn't get many people to join and so I didn't get many people to quit either; I can only claim a handful of "fruit" – and of that I count my parents - I got them into it – and did manage to convince them to leave.).
I was angry for a while over being royally duped – but the upside of that anger was to activate critical thinking and it's been going strong ever since. And there's regret over poor decisions especially in the career category.
And not to try and shift the blame or avoid accepting responsibility – I do think it's kind of funny though there were so many subtle undertows to get you to relinquish responsible:
A mindset that incorporates the "law of believing" avoids reality and places hope in magical thinking.
A mindset that spiritualizes everything is dishonest – I worked under a corps grad who was a crook when it came to running his business; but when many of the believers who worked for him started complaining about how he conducted his business he would attribute the "rumors" to being generated by devil spirits trying to thwart his ministry.
A mindset that seeks direct revelation from God and/or adheres to blind obedience to leadership avoids critical thinking and the anguishing over hard choices.
T-Bone! How nice to see you again. :wave:/> It's been a long time since you were last posting, at least in this forum.
I think it was you who used to say, TWI was like MiracleGro for all our personal faults. So we went into the Corps as mean and oppressive, we got much worse at that while we were in. I think your wise saying plays into this thread very well. Explains why some became more mean and bullying than others. Cos they wuz so before they went in. Those that weren't so - they themselves became more bullied and oppressed.
T-Bone! How nice to see you again. /> It's been a long time since you were last posting, at least in this forum.
I think it was you who used to say, TWI was like MiracleGro for all our personal faults. So we went into the Corps as mean and oppressive, we got much worse at that while we were in. I think your wise saying plays into this thread very well. Explains why some became more mean and bullying than others. Cos they wuz so before they went in. Those that weren't so - they themselves became more bullied and oppressed.
Hi Twinky - it's always good to see you at the Spot!!! It has been a long time since i posted - although i still have been checking out Grease Spot every so often....yeah this is one of those topics that really gets me thinking - - and wanting to contribute - so i thought i'd "get this out to our people right away booms-quick". />
but i'm not the one who talked about the MiracleGro idea (at least i don't remember saying that....geesh older i get the less i remember anyway)...i'm more of a movie reference type guy....give me some time though and i should be able to find a sci fi film about a guy who gets blasted by radiation and miraculously grows real big and it's embarrassing now because he can't easily hide his acne - - - - ok i've got it The Amazing Colossal Man (a 1957 sci fi classic of course).
A mindset that seeks direct revelation from God and adheres to blind obedience to leadership
That (using "and" instead of "or") appears to me to be an oxymoron.
A mindset that seeks direct revelation from God or adheres to blind obedience to leadership
While that appears rather black and white (as I don't see how both are feasible at the same time...)
A mindset that adheres to blind obedience to leadership avoids critical thinking and the anguishing over hard choices.
Agreed.
A mindset that seeks direct revelation from God avoids critical thinking and the anguishing over hard choices.
I guess I've always thought that thinking was critical, but maybe there's some kind of thinking that isn't.
And apparently there must be some differences of opinion as to what "direct revelation" is or how it works.
(I presume that you're thinking "direct" means something not via another person, or through any previously written or revealed information.)
Frankly speaking, I don't see or know how it's even possible to receive "direct revelation" and for it not to result in thinking about it, or that it somehow automatically eliminates any further choices.
That (using "and" instead of "or") appears to me to be an oxymoron.
While that appears rather black and white (as I don't see how both are feasible at the same time...)
Agreed.
I guess I've always thought that thinking was critical, but maybe there's some kind of thinking that isn't.
And apparently there must be some differences of opinion as to what "direct revelation" is or how it works.
(I presume that you're thinking "direct" means something not via another person, or through any previously written or revealed information.)
Frankly speaking, I don't see or know how it's even possible to receive "direct revelation" and for it not to result in thinking about it, or that it somehow automatically eliminates any further choices.
hope I'm not taking this thread way off topic …
I'm sure there's others here who can jump in and explain it better – but anyway here goes - for me back when I was in the corps, there was a common decision making model that held sway – even in critical situations – and it went along the lines of doing what you were told – whether by leadership or supposedly by God. Blind obedience adheres to rules, doctrines, directives, and established practices without question - Because they are based on leadership's "divine" authority.
When I said "A mindset that seeks direct revelation from God and/or adheres to blind obedience to leadership avoids critical thinking…etc." I don't see my use of "and/or" qualifying as an oxymoron since neither thought process (seeking direct revelation or doing what you're told) is contradictory but rather complementary where if one is not available (direct revelation) then one defers to the other (blind obedience); I was trying to cover all contingencies – and my writing may have even be under the subliminal influence of legal documents we've all become familiar with nowadays when we sign up for anything – in other words you can base your decision on direct revelation or blind obedience - - or both! />
Concerning "critical thinking" – again I say there's lots of other posters here who are better qualified to define it; as for me plain old "thinking" is an activity of thought that anyone can do.
For example, I can look at a Vermeer painting and think "wow - that is beautiful. I like the details and perspective. It makes me think i should practice the bass more often". Whereas Tim Jenison (an inventor) seeking to understand the painting techniques of the Dutch Masters applied his critical thinking skills (as well as creative thinking skills – which often go hand in hand with problem solving) and was able to re-create by hand Vermeer's The Music Lesson. By the way, Tim is not an artist and had never painted before.
For want of a better way to put it - critical thinking is aware of its own thinking process. You'll see that happening a lot here at Grease Spot. There are some posters here who have very well developed critical thinking skills and being aware of their own bias can analyze quit admirably even a biblical text or PFAL doctrine – even if they do not believe in God or that the Bible is the word of God.
I did not mean to suggest direct revelation eliminates thinking or further choices – the ways corps mindset is what eliminates thinking or options; folks claiming "God told me to do this" or "God revealed this or that to me" was often used response for an immediate "crisis"; it's great for getting you out of the hot seat of responsibility and avoids wasting precious time considering other options (I'm speaking sarcastically of course).
Then how much honesty is actually in the post (shown below) that you previously made, judging all the intent of a man and his life?
What qualifies you to speak so brazenly?
Honestly, I think I made a fair and factual statement to say or suggest that ALL doctrines taught and applied VIA VPW and his ministry were picked for selfish/abusive intent.
IF someone is able separate, honestly, GOOD from that man's use of any doctrine, make that thread. I can't, honestly.
If VPW taught that breathing air is good for your health, he had an ulterior motive. Has nothing to do with the fact breathing air is good for your health. And there's no better way to interpret the mess that is TWI than by viewing VPW through that lens. To focus on the doctrine alone or in any other way is dishonest. Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, honestly.
Then how much honesty is actually in the post (shown below) that you previously made, judging all the intent of a man and his life?
What qualifies you to speak so brazenly?
I think I see what mean, TLC. I appreciate you taking the time to point this out to me.
It was not apparent to me earlier, sorry.
I shall take some time to think about my thought process and how that resulted in the actions I've taken here. I may have gotten a little carried away. Again, my bad.
I'm sure there's others here who can jump in and explain it better – but anyway here goes - for me back when I was in the corps, there was a common decision making model that held sway – even in critical situations – and it went along the lines of doing what you were told – whether by leadership or supposedly by God. Blind obedience adheres to rules, doctrines, directives, and established practices without question - Because they are based on leadership's "divine" authority.
Okay, I sense that it did become that way in later corps. (hence, perhaps the e is rightly added to the word.) Although the "roots" of such thinking may have started growing from very early on, I really don't know at what point it may have become so pervasive that it can be said to be either normal, or "the way it was" among most corps. From my own perspective, there were (far too many) cases of it, but I didn't view it as being good, right, or "normal."
When I said "A mindset that seeks direct revelation from God and/or adheres to blind obedience to leadership avoids critical thinking…etc." I don't see my use of "and/or" qualifying as an oxymoron since neither thought process (seeking direct revelation or doing what you're told) is contradictory but rather complementary where if one is not available (direct revelation) then one defers to the other (blind obedience); I was trying to cover all contingencies – and my writing may have even be under the subliminal influence of legal documents we've all become familiar with nowadays when we sign up for anything – in other words you can base your decision on direct revelation or blind obedience - - or both! />
Okay, thanks for clarifying what you meant.
Seems I wasn't relating well to it.
Concerning "critical thinking" – again I say there's lots of other posters here who are better qualified to define it; as for me plain old "thinking" is an activity of thought that anyone can do.
Fair enough. I like most forms of genuine thinking (as long as it's reasonably coherent.)
For want of a better way to put it - critical thinking is aware of its own thinking process.
Sound sorta like someone that only thinks they're thinking.
(oy vey... I'll stir some memories with that line!)
I did not mean to suggest direct revelation eliminates thinking or further choices – the ways corps mindset is what eliminates thinking or options; folks claiming "God told me to do this" or "God revealed this or that to me" was often used response for an immediate "crisis"; it's great for getting you out of the hot seat of responsibility and avoids wasting precious time considering other options (I'm speaking sarcastically of course).
Yeah, those lines were a bunch a crap for the most part. Just a "rubber stamping" of what they wanted to do.
I think I see what mean, TLC. I appreciate you taking the time to point this out to me.
It was not apparent to me earlier, sorry.
I shall take some time to think about my thought process and how that resulted in the actions I've taken here. I may have gotten a little carried away. Again, my bad.
Take it easy, Dude.
Please don't misunderstand the reason for my posts.
I'm not upset or offended in any way, I merely sought what was only fair and honest in what was being said.
Critical thinking is a manner of thinking that allows for critique of ideas using reason and logic. It's an objective, unbiased approach to evaluation of ideas and situations. The PFAL series, along with Renewed Mind and Dealing With The Adversary, taught us to explicitly avoid and deny critical thinking........... "Having done all, STAND!. You just don't budge, baby."-VPW......It's sprinkled throughout all the other classes as well, with the exception, maybe, of Keys to Research. A lot of ex Way people are still stuck in that denial mode. You can see the evidence of it regularly on facebook. I consider them to be victims until they start to use that stubbornness in a damaging, oppressive way.
edit: I wanted to add that this doesn't only apply to Bible matters. I've encountered many ex-Way people who are entrenched in this anti-critical thinking mindset. It can be maddening trying to reason with them. Sometimes they even show up on GSC to let us all know had severely we've been led astray. Such is life.
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waysider
Responding to this: "I am quite certain this forum thread will be offensive to some (depends on your circle quad) because some folks out there held corp folk in highest esteem (in some ways I still d
penworks
I think this is an important topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Disclosure: I am a grad of the 2nd Corps who knew Wierwille personally. I was a limb leader's wife for a time. I was on the research team
GeorgeStGeorge
I haven't had this much fun since the mid-2000's, when we used to get trolls routinely. Always insinuating, always deflecting, eventually disappearing (occasionally returning with a different screen
Raf
I think what I was trying to say this morning is that we are all indeed responsible for our actions, but I think we are responsible for our reactions as well. We interact with people who have been affected differently by their life's experiences, not just during their time in TWI, but since then as well. As someone who escaped without pain, who am I to judge someone who was affected more deeply than I? Who am I to judge someone who has not yet worked through the pain, who has yet to "let it go," as we were so often admonished?
It all ties in together. I asked about Corps as victims or oppressors, but I said nothing about those victimized or oppressed BY Corps. Perhaps some discourtesy is understandable when it comes to people who have yet to work through their anger at being the victim of TWI. That doesn't excuse anything, but it does help explain it.
Or am I off base?
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TLC
While that might apply to some things, it would be a blanket statement (not to mention less than kind, unfair, judgmental, dishonest, or even cruel) to say it was true of every doctrine or practice that he taught or lived. (Not that I think you or anyone else said or meant that, I'm just sayin'.) The difficulty always resides in honestly separating the good from the bad.
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Raf
Well, despite some false accusations that you may have read, GSC has a very long tradition of trying in good faith to separate the good from the bad, the baby from the bathwater, as it were. Some folks would have you believe that we only exist to bash TWI, but it takes a pretty superficial reading of the site to come to that conclusion. ;)
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waysider
I don't know if this is off topic. It seems like it is somehow related, at least to me.
When I finally came to accept that I had been duped, I wasn't angry or bitter. On the contrary, I felt a sense of relief. It suddenly all made sense to me. I've said before, I regret anything and everything I did that caused someone to take the class or become involved with The Way. I apologize for that. I was never a mean or overbearing type of person, before, during or after my involvement. This, in itself, created quite a bit of inner conflict for me because I couldn't bring myself to do some of the things TWI required of me, such as expel someone from the class for minor tardiness infractions without first considering their personal circumstances. There are lots of other examples, of course. I think we all have several we could cite without me being specific.
On a related note: We are all ultimately responsible for our own actions. However, and I've said this many times, sometimes those actions were the result of pretense and fraud. My often cited analogy is this: You want to buy a used car so you shop for the best deal. Mileage is a big deciding factor for you. You find one that fits your requirements and it has low mileage so you buy it. The decision was yours. Later, you discover that the seller had doctored the odometer to give a false, low reading. They must share in the responsibility for the decision you made. Lots of us became involved with The Way or the various training programs because we based our decisions on information that was fraudulently presented to us by the organization. Understanding how it all blends together is what alleviates the anger and bitterness and brings the sense of relief.
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TLC
Escaped isn't necessarily a bad or a wrong word, but I'm not so sure that it's necessarily the right word for everyone. (Some were fired, but I shant say who... lol.)
Considering that even in a physical sense certain times of rapid growth are not without pain, perhaps it could be viewed by some folk that their pain of separation was, at least in part, a result of significant growth. You look back, and see tremendous learning... but not without pain, and not without questions still looking for answers. Could, moreover, should it have been much better than it was? Absolutely. But life can't be lived in the rear view mirror. God was, is, and always will be a tremendous teacher. At some point in time, we have to reconcile with the reality of who the real teacher was (and is), and whether or not we've learned what (or all that) we could or should have learned.
Maybe some can look back and say, they grew away from twi.
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Bolshevik
Honestly, I think I made a fair and factual statement to say or suggest that ALL doctrines taught and applied VIA VPW and his ministry were picked for selfish/abusive intent.
IF someone is able separate, honestly, GOOD from that man's use of any doctrine, make that thread. I can't, honestly.
If VPW taught that breathing air is good for your health, he had an ulterior motive. Has nothing to do with the fact breathing air is good for your health. And there's no better way to interpret the mess that is TWI than by viewing VPW through that lens. To focus on the doctrine alone or in any other way is dishonest. Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, honestly.
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TLC
How well do you think you knew the man, Bolshevik?
How much time did you have or spend with him?
Perhaps you wouldn't mind elaborating a little.
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skyrider
Well....since Raf invited as much nuance into this dialogue as we want
then, especially with corps, the marriage factor weighs heavily into its complexities.
We're not dealing with robots here.......but individuals who have passions of interest,
change perceptions, evaluate information, grow tired of monotonous boring teachings,
stress and strain to pay bills, start a family, get disturbed by cockroach apartments,
desire to have a nice home.....and begin to unravel the seedy side of wierwille,
sexual predation, abortions, psycho geer's paranoia, martindale's lawsuits, and that
some of their region coordinators knew about these secret lockbox shenanigans.
Most here all know how twi taught marriage concepts: husband and wife responsibilities.
The husband is to lead, the wife is to submit.......otherwise, it's whacked and off.
So.....[specifically corps]...their whole world comes crashing to a halt if one or the
other wants to exit twi. Everything ties back to the corporation: corps status, goals,
involvement, relationships, etc......because its a cult, a "closed society."
One could say that even marriage is a victim of this oppression.
What if the wife wants to exit, but the husband doesn't?
What if the husband wants to exit, but the wife isn't ready?
What if either husband/or wife have in-laws involved in twi and add oppressive measures?
What if either husband/or wife have in-laws that keep telling them twi is a cult?
Does an 18 years person NEED to stay committed to twi for a lifetime....from prez #1,
prez #2, prez #3 and doctrines of lesbians in the Garden of Eden?
You will never be able to wrap your arms around all these nuances if the focus is on
the individuals NO MATTER WHAT THEIR TITLE, LEVEL OR LENGTH OF INVOLVEMENT who were
caught in the scam....to pinpoint any degree of victims/oppressors.
You have to go back to wierwille, the founder, and its "foundation."
How's THAT for nuance?
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skyrider
Wanted to add.....
I don't know about other areas or other classes.....but MANY TIMES
we did not abide by twi's rigid rules. I could cite dozens and dozens
of times when we thumbed our noses at twi's instructions and mandates.
Rigid Rules in the corps program and at HQ....yes!
Rigid Rules on the field, by me?
Like I've said many times, I was a rebel and should NEVER have gone corps.
Not quite sure how I lasted all those years and even one of those deeply
despised limb coordinators.
More nuance.....
Hell.....I've shared how I circumvented stringing chairs in the BRC.
Stringing Chairs in the BRC
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T-Bone
I think responsibility is one of the key elements of this topic. In that regard I take full responsibility for joining, supporting and promoting TWI. As far as coming to terms with my involvement for twelve years it has been a mixed bag of emotions and thoughts.
I was frustrated that I was not able to persuade folks to leave TWI once I reached the point of no return. I never was a good salesman (I didn't get many people to join and so I didn't get many people to quit either; I can only claim a handful of "fruit" – and of that I count my parents - I got them into it – and did manage to convince them to leave.).
I was angry for a while over being royally duped – but the upside of that anger was to activate critical thinking and it's been going strong ever since. And there's regret over poor decisions especially in the career category.
And not to try and shift the blame or avoid accepting responsibility – I do think it's kind of funny though there were so many subtle undertows to get you to relinquish responsible:
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Twinky
T-Bone! How nice to see you again. :wave:/> It's been a long time since you were last posting, at least in this forum.
I think it was you who used to say, TWI was like MiracleGro for all our personal faults. So we went into the Corps as mean and oppressive, we got much worse at that while we were in. I think your wise saying plays into this thread very well. Explains why some became more mean and bullying than others. Cos they wuz so before they went in. Those that weren't so - they themselves became more bullied and oppressed.
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T-Bone
Hi Twinky - it's always good to see you at the Spot!!! It has been a long time since i posted - although i still have been checking out Grease Spot every so often....yeah this is one of those topics that really gets me thinking - - and wanting to contribute - so i thought i'd "get this out to our people right away booms-quick".
/>
but i'm not the one who talked about the MiracleGro idea (at least i don't remember saying that....geesh older i get the less i remember anyway)...i'm more of a movie reference type guy....give me some time though and i should be able to find a sci fi film about a guy who gets blasted by radiation and miraculously grows real big and it's embarrassing now because he can't easily hide his acne - - - - ok i've got it The Amazing Colossal Man (a 1957 sci fi classic of course).
edited for memory disclaimer :biglaugh:/>
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TLC
That (using "and" instead of "or") appears to me to be an oxymoron.
While that appears rather black and white (as I don't see how both are feasible at the same time...)
Agreed.
I guess I've always thought that thinking was critical, but maybe there's some kind of thinking that isn't.
And apparently there must be some differences of opinion as to what "direct revelation" is or how it works.
(I presume that you're thinking "direct" means something not via another person, or through any previously written or revealed information.)
Frankly speaking, I don't see or know how it's even possible to receive "direct revelation" and for it not to result in thinking about it, or that it somehow automatically eliminates any further choices.
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Bolshevik
He and I have had numerous conversations, and I assume will have many more. ;)
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TLC
And you were what age at the time?
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Bolshevik
Well, um, I never thought that age really matters . . . when you're rotten to the Corps?
No, I have never to my knowledge met VPW.
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T-Bone
hope I'm not taking this thread way off topic …
I'm sure there's others here who can jump in and explain it better – but anyway here goes - for me back when I was in the corps, there was a common decision making model that held sway – even in critical situations – and it went along the lines of doing what you were told – whether by leadership or supposedly by God. Blind obedience adheres to rules, doctrines, directives, and established practices without question - Because they are based on leadership's "divine" authority.
When I said "A mindset that seeks direct revelation from God and/or adheres to blind obedience to leadership avoids critical thinking…etc." I don't see my use of "and/or" qualifying as an oxymoron since neither thought process (seeking direct revelation or doing what you're told) is contradictory but rather complementary where if one is not available (direct revelation) then one defers to the other (blind obedience); I was trying to cover all contingencies – and my writing may have even be under the subliminal influence of legal documents we've all become familiar with nowadays when we sign up for anything – in other words you can base your decision on direct revelation or blind obedience - - or both!
/>
Concerning "critical thinking" – again I say there's lots of other posters here who are better qualified to define it; as for me plain old "thinking" is an activity of thought that anyone can do.
For example, I can look at a Vermeer painting and think "wow - that is beautiful. I like the details and perspective. It makes me think i should practice the bass more often". Whereas Tim Jenison (an inventor) seeking to understand the painting techniques of the Dutch Masters applied his critical thinking skills (as well as creative thinking skills – which often go hand in hand with problem solving) and was able to re-create by hand Vermeer's The Music Lesson. By the way, Tim is not an artist and had never painted before.
Tim's Vermeer
== == == ==
For want of a better way to put it - critical thinking is aware of its own thinking process. You'll see that happening a lot here at Grease Spot. There are some posters here who have very well developed critical thinking skills and being aware of their own bias can analyze quit admirably even a biblical text or PFAL doctrine – even if they do not believe in God or that the Bible is the word of God.
I did not mean to suggest direct revelation eliminates thinking or further choices – the ways corps mindset is what eliminates thinking or options; folks claiming "God told me to do this" or "God revealed this or that to me" was often used response for an immediate "crisis"; it's great for getting you out of the hot seat of responsibility and avoids wasting precious time considering other options (I'm speaking sarcastically of course).
edited for clarity :rolleyes:/>
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Raf
Humblebrag: I think I saw a compliment in there. :)
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TLC
Then how much honesty is actually in the post (shown below) that you previously made, judging all the intent of a man and his life?
What qualifies you to speak so brazenly?
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Bolshevik
I think I see what mean, TLC. I appreciate you taking the time to point this out to me.
It was not apparent to me earlier, sorry.
I shall take some time to think about my thought process and how that resulted in the actions I've taken here. I may have gotten a little carried away. Again, my bad.
Take it easy, Dude.
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TLC
Okay, I sense that it did become that way in later corps. (hence, perhaps the e is rightly added to the word.) Although the "roots" of such thinking may have started growing from very early on, I really don't know at what point it may have become so pervasive that it can be said to be either normal, or "the way it was" among most corps. From my own perspective, there were (far too many) cases of it, but I didn't view it as being good, right, or "normal."
Okay, thanks for clarifying what you meant.
Seems I wasn't relating well to it.
Fair enough. I like most forms of genuine thinking (as long as it's reasonably coherent.)
Sound sorta like someone that only thinks they're thinking.
(oy vey... I'll stir some memories with that line!)
Yeah, those lines were a bunch a crap for the most part. Just a "rubber stamping" of what they wanted to do.
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TLC
Please don't misunderstand the reason for my posts.
I'm not upset or offended in any way, I merely sought what was only fair and honest in what was being said.
Okay?
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waysider
Critical thinking is a manner of thinking that allows for critique of ideas using reason and logic. It's an objective, unbiased approach to evaluation of ideas and situations. The PFAL series, along with Renewed Mind and Dealing With The Adversary, taught us to explicitly avoid and deny critical thinking........... "Having done all, STAND!. You just don't budge, baby."-VPW......It's sprinkled throughout all the other classes as well, with the exception, maybe, of Keys to Research. A lot of ex Way people are still stuck in that denial mode. You can see the evidence of it regularly on facebook. I consider them to be victims until they start to use that stubbornness in a damaging, oppressive way.
edit: I wanted to add that this doesn't only apply to Bible matters. I've encountered many ex-Way people who are entrenched in this anti-critical thinking mindset. It can be maddening trying to reason with them. Sometimes they even show up on GSC to let us all know had severely we've been led astray. Such is life.
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Twinky
At a very basic level, critical thinking might include: "How can this task be done better?" or even, "Why is this task being done at all?"
Non-critical thinking might include: "Will this satisfy this leader and how he wants this task done?"
For example: stringing chairs. Was that level of precision necessary?
>Skyrider posted about using the dents in the floor made by previous stringings, as a quicker way to do set-up.
>Others might think of getting chairs with loops on the legs, so that they become one long line.
>Others might think of getting other forms of seating, if appropriate.
>Or choosing a different venue.
>>Or whether the reason the chairs were set out was necessary at all.
Or maybe, non-critical thinking was simply, "If this chair is slightly out of line, I'll get chewed out/ a face melting/ there'll be trouble."
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