Not every blessing has to be the direct result of a "gift ministry."
Trying to pigeonhole everything into one's pet theory is a good way to really
sail off into left field- and was/is common in twi.
I once heard someone on an STS tape teaching on his cutesy concept of
"Recover, Resist, Rejoice."
He began to read and expound.
"*reading* 'Be sober, be vigilant' *expounding* That's like recovering."
Uh, no it isn't-and it shouldn't have to be unless you're forcing
EVERYTHING to fit into your framework,
subordinating the communication of God Almighty to your religious construct.
So the gift is to the building up of the overall body of Christ, when someone is doing these gift ministries. Pigeonhole, is it like that dude in Acts, who wanted to buy what Paul was doing?
The singular mistake made by vic, IMO, and, which i find repeated over and over again in discussions and theological "debates" about "gift ministries", is that all of it is based on Pauline writings to the various churches he had visited during his journeys. The entire understanding of the new birth, church polity and liturgy that twit espoused was Pauline. How much time did twits ever spend examining the life and history of this Saul of Tarsus? Pharisee of the Pharisees, Sanhedrin member, Christian hunter and killer. What did his own life, beliefs, and background bring to the table before he ever wrote a word? having spent many hours reading about Paul from extra-Biblical material, I learned quite a bit. First one i read that i'd recommend to ex-wayfers is, "The Life and Epistles of St. Paul the Apostle" by Coneybeare and Hausen. That i read while in twit and it really changed my regard for the centerpiece of all twit theology, the Pauline Epistles.
All wayfers were ever taught about "gift ministries" comes from Pauline "scripture". Bullinger and Welch were vic's primary plagiarism sources for everything he ever taught about any of the Epistles of Paul. Romans through Thessalonians as well as the so-called pastoral epistles of Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. The teachings to the corpse on Romans, I & II Timothy, Ephessians, Thessalonians etc., were all plagiarized from Bullinger's "The Church Epistles" and Welch's book on Romans, "The Just and The Justifier". john lynn's entire "seminar" on Romans is a repeat of Welch's Just and The Justifier just like vic's corpse teachings were. Read those books i mentioned and see for yourself.
So, in response to Twinky's request that we refrain from mention of twi or vic or whatever, my contribution is this. Any consideration of an objective discussion regarding understanding and/or defining "gift ministries" MUST IMO, take note of the intensely legalistic and ritual-bound religion Paul was raised schooled and trained in. He took it to the top. There is no way IMO, that this lifelong devotion to religious piety was a part of everything Paul wrote. I also do NOT accept twit's basic presumption that everything Paul wrote was "god breathed" or divine revelation/inspiration. I believe that Pauline Christianity is different from that which Jesus Christ taught and preached. I believe that Pauline "scripture" is a hellenization of what Jesus came to declare and do. in effect, I believe Paul's epistles reflect his private interpretation of what Jesus came to declare and do, and not the profound spiritual movement Christ came to inaugurate. I place a higher value on the Gospels and The Book of Acts than I place on any of Paul's Epistles.
In light of that, I feel that attempting to understand the "5 gift ministries",, or even just the big three, in light of Pauline scripture is a futile endeavor, unless you, as much of Christianity seems to do, are a Pauline Christian. I am NOT a Pauline Christian, so, in fairness, i must bow out of further discussion on this topic since i think most of Pauline scripture is not god breathed, TY.
The singular mistake made by vic, IMO, and, which i find repeated over and over again in discussions and theological "debates" about "gift ministries", is that all of it is based on Pauline writings to the various churches he had visited during his journeys. The entire understanding of the new birth, church polity and liturgy that twit espoused was Pauline.
Thanks for your post, DWBH, as it brings up a number of points that probably merits further consideration (and more than I am likely to have time for in a short post or two.) In regards to this "singular mistake" (concerning gift ministries), I have to disagree that it was based ONLY on Pauline writings, or that "the entire understanding of the new birth, church polity and liturgy that twit espoused was Pauline." Rather, I see a majority of the problems stemming precisely from the failure to do this. And if no one objects (as it would undoubtedly require noting variances in practice from what is written in scripture), I am inclined towards addressing this in a later post (that I can give a bit more time and thought to.)
Fundamentally, it seems to me that there is a serious issue of misunderstanding what these "gifts" are and/or aren't. And, I'll also make note of the fact that not everyone in twi, and more specifically, the wc, necessarily agreed and had a "unanimous understanding" in regards to this subject. So, there's a certain degree of caution that ought to be exercised when or if saying "this is what twi or vpw" taught or said it was. I say this, namely because it was evident to me many years ago (before 1980) that I held a different view on certain of these things. However, that said, perhaps there was a more commonly accepted understanding (or perhaps, a misunderstanding) that deserves some kind of notation. More on this later...
So, in response to Twinky's request that we refrain from mention of twi or vic or whatever, my contribution is this. Any consideration of an objective discussion regarding understanding and/or defining "gift ministries" MUST IMO, take note of the intensely legalistic and ritual-bound religion Paul was raised schooled and trained in. He took it to the top. There is no way IMO, that this lifelong devotion to religious piety was a part of everything Paul wrote. I also do NOT accept twit's basic presumption that everything Paul wrote was "god breathed" or divine revelation/inspiration. I believe that Pauline Christianity is different from that which Jesus Christ taught and preached. I believe that Pauline "scripture" is a hellenization of what Jesus came to declare and do. in effect, I believe Paul's epistles reflect his private interpretation of what Jesus came to declare and do, and not the profound spiritual movement Christ came to inaugurate. I place a higher value on the Gospels and The Book of Acts than I place on any of Paul's Epistles.
In light of that, I feel that attempting to understand the "5 gift ministries",, or even just the big three, in light of Pauline scripture is a futile endeavor, unless you, as much of Christianity seems to do, are a Pauline Christian. I am NOT a Pauline Christian, so, in fairness, i must bow out of further discussion on this topic since i think most of Pauline scripture is not god breathed, TY.
DWBH, please don't bow out! I take on board your comments about Paul. Yes, we have to consider where he is coming from. As well as to whom he is speaking, and what they might (or not) believe, and therefore what issues needed to be addressed.
Paul calls himself (1 Cor 15:9) "the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because..." And yet, he is accepted as such by the other "leadership" (for want of a better word). As perhaps also are some of those accompanying Paul, whom he took with him to Jerusalem when they agreed the appropriate doctrine for (former) Gentile believers.
Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them?
I must go back into my copy of the Didache and see what if anything that says.
All wayfers were ever taught about "gift ministries" comes from Pauline "scripture". Bullinger and Welch were vic's primary plagiarism sources for everything he ever taught about any of the Epistles of Paul. Romans through Thessalonians as well as the so-called pastoral epistles of Timothy, Titus, and Philemon.
Then I take it you don't think Paul wrote Hebrews?
(a reference to it may surface later.)
There is no way IMO, that this lifelong devotion to religious piety was a part of everything Paul wrote.
I presume you meant to say that it wasn't a part of it.
I believe that Pauline "scripture" is a hellenization of what Jesus came to declare and do. in effect, I believe Paul's epistles reflect his private interpretation of what Jesus came to declare and do, and not the profound spiritual movement Christ came to inaugurate. I place a higher value on the Gospels and The Book of Acts than I place on any of Paul's Epistles.
I've sorta gathered that already from things you posted elsewhere on GSC. (Not that I agree with it, by any means.) But thank you for clarifying the perspective you're viewing it from.
In light of that, I feel that attempting to understand the "5 gift ministries",, or even just the big three, in light of Pauline scripture is a futile endeavor, unless you, as much of Christianity seems to do, are a Pauline Christian.
So are you saying that you're going to pigeonhole everyone viewing it from the perspective of what's written in Romans-Philemon (and possibly Hebrews) as being some carnally minded "I'm of Paul" Christian? Or does a "Pauline Christian" imply or mean something else?
DWBH, please don't bow out! I take on board your comments about Paul. Yes, we have to consider where he is coming from. As well as to whom he is speaking, and what they might (or not) believe, and therefore what issues needed to be addressed.
Paul calls himself (1 Cor 15:9) "the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because..." And yet, he is accepted as such by the other "leadership" (for want of a better word). As perhaps also are some of those accompanying Paul, whom he took with him to Jerusalem when they agreed the appropriate doctrine for (former) Gentile believers.
Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them?
I must go back into my copy of the Didache and see what if anything that says.
I'd agree, as it could make for a more interesting discussion... but I would have been more hesitant to bring DWBH's background into the picture. (Or maybe not... I dunno.)
I don't doubt that there are (and most certainly were back in the first century) a lot of reasons for some more than others to discredit much of what Paul wrote. (Especially given what's written in Rom.11:25.) Paul's gospel different from the gospel message of Jesus Christ? It sure as shoot was (and is.)
Think vpw and/or twi made a clear distinction between them?
Nope. It was only when and where he/they wanted to. Which (unfortunately) resulted in HUGE problems, both doctrinally and in practice.
And, I'll also make note of the fact that not everyone in twi, and more specifically, the wc, necessarily agreed and had a "unanimous understanding" in regards to this subject.
For instance...
When is one (any) of these "gifts" given or received?
The difference in answers that can, are, and were thought to be correct are... well, rather varied, to say the least.
Why so much variance? Probably because it leaves open both what is given, and to whom.
And if the significance of who it is given to is missed, overlooked, or otherwise diminished, for the life of me I don't know how you get what is given right (much less when it is given or received)...
When is one (any) of these "gifts" given or received?
Anyone care to say what they think or believe about this?
Maybe it's thought to be a trick question of some kind.
But the only "trick" in it is to help illustrate the differences some of us probably have (or had) in mind about what these "gifts" are (or, if you prefer, were.)
You are in many ways doing exactly what extwits usually do in discussions about this topic. You double down on Paul and what YOU consider to be the "godbreathed" revelation of his Epistles. BEFORE engaging in your explanations of Pauline theology and doctrine, deciding whether ANY of it is indeed "godbreathed" is a necessary first step. What causes you to :
1) Believe Paul's Epistles are as godbreathed as The Gospels and Acts?
2) Do you believe that The 7 Pauline Epistles, Romans through II Thessalonians are indeed "The apex of all revelation given to the Church"?
3) Are you an "ultradispensationalist like Bullinger, Welch, and Wierwille?
4) your "definition" of Pauline Christian please? It is different from mine.
5) Your comparison of Pauline Scripture with anything else, (I.e. Gospels, Old Testament) regarding understanding these "gift ministries" prior to the Ascension of Christ? What is available OUTSIDE PAUL regarding "Apostles, prophets, or teachers"? The Aaronic Priesthoid was to the world, and therefore I would include "pastors and evangelists" as functions of the Aaronic Priesthood to Israel and the world.
6) Please explain how YOUR understanding of gift ministries differs from dictor's, da forehead's, B.G. Leonard, The Roman Catholic Church, and The Southern Baptist Convention?
7) Your understanding of who gives, sends, and energizes these "ministries" in the Church? God? Jesus Christ? Holy Spirit?
8) Your understanding of who benefits from these "gifts" and how?
That'll keep us busy for awhile with a substantive and reflective discussion. What think Ye?
Oh!......and BTW, it makes NO difference to me who wrote Hebrews. The debate has gone on for 1500 years now. Paul or someone else?
IF it's all "godbreathed" what difference does it make?
DWBH, please don 't attack TLC; better if you just ignore him!
But since you encourage further discussion, this is what I asked you:
Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them.
You are in many ways doing exactly what extwits usually do in discussions about this topic.
Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't read or seen here on GSC where this topic has even been discussed before. So, unless you merely intended it as some (intentionally dumb) "put down" to start of your post with, then kindly find and post a link to it.
BEFORE engaging in your explanations of Pauline theology and doctrine, deciding whether ANY of it is indeed "godbreathed" is a necessary first step.
Discussions aren't always (and don't need to be) approached as some combative "winner take all" competition or debate, DWBH. And if you (or anyone else) have (or has) no intention or desire to simply (and politely) state and explain your position or view on this particular subject (or any other, for that matter), then I have no reason to state mine (be they thought or mislabeled by you as being something else.)
What causes you to :
1) Believe Paul's Epistles are as godbreathed as The Gospels and Acts?
It's a premise, which I accept as being true. (And have, from before any contact or involvement with twi.)
I am fully aware that it's a premise which you do not accept. Therefore, our perspective on this subject (as well as most others) is different.
2) Do you believe that The 7 Pauline Epistles, Romans through II Thessalonians are indeed "The apex of all revelation given to the Church"?
I believe they are specific to the current economy we live in.
3) Are you an "ultradispensationalist like Bullinger, Welch, and Wierwille?
Similar to, but not exactly.
4) your "definition" of Pauline Christian please? It is different from mine.
It's not a term that I use (or am familiar with), so I have no definition for it. I did, however, ask for a clarification of what you meant by it (which you never responded to.) I must presume, therefore, that my summation of your use of it was correct.
5) Your comparison of Pauline Scripture with anything else, (I.e. Gospels, Old Testament) regarding understanding these "gift ministries" prior to the Ascension of Christ? What is available OUTSIDE PAUL regarding "Apostles, prophets, or teachers"? The Aaronic Priesthoid was to the world, and therefore I would include "pastors and evangelists" as functions of the Aaronic Priesthood to Israel and the world.
This is something which I still don't understand well enough to have a clear opinion on. Therefore, I have certain reservations on making any direct connections or comparisons between them. The Ascension of Christ and the giving of gifts is spoken of in Psalms 68:18, which seems related to what Paul speaks of in Ephesians 4. So, I'm probably a bit more aware of what things aren't than what they are. Consequently, I am hesitant to make direct associations or equate any of the ministries that are spoken of in Ephesians with anything prior to his ascending to the right hand of God (including the 12 apostles of the gospels.) Furthermore, the Aaronic priesthood was not to the world, but to the nation of Israel. The entire nation of Israel is actually spoken of in prophecy as (conditionally) becoming a kingdom of priests, which, by reason of priestly function, would have been to the all the rest of the world. This is also why the ascended Christ is spoken of as being a priest after the order of Melchisedec in Hebrews. Melchisedec was a priest to the whole world, Aaron was not. But perhaps you care to speak further on what similarities or differences you see or think there is between these various ministries before and after the Ascension.
6) Please explain how YOUR understanding of gift ministries differs from dictor's, da forehead's, B.G. Leonard, The Roman Catholic Church, and The Southern Baptist Convention?
If there's some specific point that you care to ask about, then first try stating what you believe or why you disagree with it. That allows us to discuss what either of us might think, rather than wasting the time and effort speculating on what somebody else might have at some point in time once thought.
7) Your understanding of who gives, sends, and energizes these "ministries" in the Church? God? Jesus Christ? Holy Spirit?
8) Your understanding of who benefits from these "gifts" and how?
That'll keep us busy for awhile with a substantive and reflective discussion. What think Ye?
If you're genuinely interested in my perspectives, then you should begin by responding to my previous question.
(that's the way discussions are suppose to work...)
When is one (any) of these "gifts" given or received?
In case you missed it, TLC,
that's a "brush-off."
Apparently, he doesn't want to discuss any of that with you.
Perhaps. Let's see where it leads or what becomes of it.
Well, I had hoped that this could be a serious discussion, not a slug-fest. Something (as its in Doctrinal) (ie not in the TWI forum) that maybe could have been useful.
But hey, have at it. Fight yourselves silly. Don't discuss the question, discuss anything but the question.
If anybody ever brings this back on topic, PM me so that I can keep up. Or PM me if you have any intelligent comment to offer and want to discuss outside the developing fisticuffs.
Well, I had hoped that this could be a serious discussion, not a slug-fest. Something (as its in Doctrinal) (ie not in the TWI forum) that maybe could have been useful.
But hey, have at it. Fight yourselves silly. Don't discuss the question, discuss anything but the question.
If anybody ever brings this back on topic, PM me so that I can keep up. Or PM me if you have any intelligent comment to offer and want to discuss outside the developing fisticuffs.
:asdf:/>/>
How much more civil, sane, or reasonable do you think I could have said what I did so as to bring and keep it on topic, Twinky?
Here's the situation as I see it. One school of thought says that God can't give special gifts to individuals because it would show favoritism, violating His "no respecter of persons" rule. Another school of thought says it doesn't violate the rules because the gifts aren't given to the individual but, rather, to the church, as it is the church on a whole that potentially benefits. Defining them individually becomes a moot point when we become aware that confirming their very existence is prerequisite. So, in essence, we must first show that the concept of gift ministries is valid and based on a correct understanding of related scripture.
Can these gift ministries be use for preparing people for the judgement seat of Christ, but with a right attitude. Seems I saw in TWI was a kind of work thing going on, earn a reward or loose a reward?
I do not know what I said that ....ed you off. If you don't mind telling me what and where I said something that irked you I would honestly like to know if an apology is in order.
I appreciate your itemized answers to my 8 questions. I intend to respond after considering thoroughly what you wrote. However, I would like to resolve the animosity issue first if that's OK with you?
I do not know what I said that ....ed you off. If you don't mind telling me what and where I said something that irked you I would honestly like to know if an apology is in order.
I appreciate your itemized answers to my 8 questions. I intend to respond after considering thoroughly what you wrote. However, I would like to resolve the animosity issue first if that's OK with you?
Not that some here haven't, don't or won't... but given that it's (mostly) an anonymous message board that we're discussing this on, DWBH, I'm actually not inclined or prone to take much of anything personally. Neither you nor anyone else here knows who I am, so as I see it, there's really no reason to. Hence, there's no sense or reason for me to be (as you say) "....ed" or irked about what somebody else writes. Moreover, I'm inclined to see what is posted mostly as a reflection of someone's attitude (be it good or bad) and their ability (or lack of ability) to communicate. That said, be it known that I have no animosity issue towards you. Though, I do think that (like many ex-twits, myself not excluded) you have a long ways to go towards softening a well developed tendency towards egotism and expressing yourself in a condescending manner. If you need or want specific example of that in what you've posted previously, you might be in worse shape that particular area than some, and possibly do need (as I have at times) to have it pointed out. Speak up, if so.
Defining them individually becomes a moot point when we become aware that confirming their very existence is prerequisite. So, in essence, we must first show that the concept of gift ministries is valid and based on a correct understanding of related scripture.
I'm inclined to somewhat agree with this, but would also point towards understanding Eph.4 as essential for validation. And perhaps it's not so much first knowing from who, to whom, what, why, or when any of these gifts are given that matters as much as seeing how it all fits or works together.
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krys
Now this is going to be difficult to write: I absolutely believe these are gifts to the church. However...the individual uses or operates them for the benefit of the church.
WordWolf
Not every blessing has to be the direct result of a "gift ministry."
Trying to pigeonhole everything into one's pet theory is a good way to really
sail off into left field- and was/is common in twi.
I once heard someone on an STS tape teaching on his cutesy concept of
"Recover, Resist, Rejoice."
He began to read and expound.
"*reading* 'Be sober, be vigilant' *expounding* That's like recovering."
Uh, no it isn't-and it shouldn't have to be unless you're forcing
EVERYTHING to fit into your framework,
subordinating the communication of God Almighty to your religious construct.
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teachmevp
So the gift is to the building up of the overall body of Christ, when someone is doing these gift ministries. Pigeonhole, is it like that dude in Acts, who wanted to buy what Paul was doing?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi All!
The singular mistake made by vic, IMO, and, which i find repeated over and over again in discussions and theological "debates" about "gift ministries", is that all of it is based on Pauline writings to the various churches he had visited during his journeys. The entire understanding of the new birth, church polity and liturgy that twit espoused was Pauline. How much time did twits ever spend examining the life and history of this Saul of Tarsus? Pharisee of the Pharisees, Sanhedrin member, Christian hunter and killer. What did his own life, beliefs, and background bring to the table before he ever wrote a word? having spent many hours reading about Paul from extra-Biblical material, I learned quite a bit. First one i read that i'd recommend to ex-wayfers is, "The Life and Epistles of St. Paul the Apostle" by Coneybeare and Hausen. That i read while in twit and it really changed my regard for the centerpiece of all twit theology, the Pauline Epistles.
All wayfers were ever taught about "gift ministries" comes from Pauline "scripture". Bullinger and Welch were vic's primary plagiarism sources for everything he ever taught about any of the Epistles of Paul. Romans through Thessalonians as well as the so-called pastoral epistles of Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. The teachings to the corpse on Romans, I & II Timothy, Ephessians, Thessalonians etc., were all plagiarized from Bullinger's "The Church Epistles" and Welch's book on Romans, "The Just and The Justifier". john lynn's entire "seminar" on Romans is a repeat of Welch's Just and The Justifier just like vic's corpse teachings were. Read those books i mentioned and see for yourself.
So, in response to Twinky's request that we refrain from mention of twi or vic or whatever, my contribution is this. Any consideration of an objective discussion regarding understanding and/or defining "gift ministries" MUST IMO, take note of the intensely legalistic and ritual-bound religion Paul was raised schooled and trained in. He took it to the top. There is no way IMO, that this lifelong devotion to religious piety was a part of everything Paul wrote. I also do NOT accept twit's basic presumption that everything Paul wrote was "god breathed" or divine revelation/inspiration. I believe that Pauline Christianity is different from that which Jesus Christ taught and preached. I believe that Pauline "scripture" is a hellenization of what Jesus came to declare and do. in effect, I believe Paul's epistles reflect his private interpretation of what Jesus came to declare and do, and not the profound spiritual movement Christ came to inaugurate. I place a higher value on the Gospels and The Book of Acts than I place on any of Paul's Epistles.
In light of that, I feel that attempting to understand the "5 gift ministries",, or even just the big three, in light of Pauline scripture is a futile endeavor, unless you, as much of Christianity seems to do, are a Pauline Christian. I am NOT a Pauline Christian, so, in fairness, i must bow out of further discussion on this topic since i think most of Pauline scripture is not god breathed, TY.
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WordWolf
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pigeonhole
"3: a neat category which usually fails to reflect actual complexities"
If I turn on the television at the perfect moment and gain insight from something broadcast at that instant,
and someone comes along trying to explain that in terms of "gift ministries",
I have to call "bushwah" on that because
Not every blessing has to be the direct result of a "gift ministry."
I really don't know how to make that any simpler.
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TLC
Thanks for your post, DWBH, as it brings up a number of points that probably merits further consideration (and more than I am likely to have time for in a short post or two.) In regards to this "singular mistake" (concerning gift ministries), I have to disagree that it was based ONLY on Pauline writings, or that "the entire understanding of the new birth, church polity and liturgy that twit espoused was Pauline." Rather, I see a majority of the problems stemming precisely from the failure to do this. And if no one objects (as it would undoubtedly require noting variances in practice from what is written in scripture), I am inclined towards addressing this in a later post (that I can give a bit more time and thought to.)
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TLC
Fundamentally, it seems to me that there is a serious issue of misunderstanding what these "gifts" are and/or aren't. And, I'll also make note of the fact that not everyone in twi, and more specifically, the wc, necessarily agreed and had a "unanimous understanding" in regards to this subject. So, there's a certain degree of caution that ought to be exercised when or if saying "this is what twi or vpw" taught or said it was. I say this, namely because it was evident to me many years ago (before 1980) that I held a different view on certain of these things. However, that said, perhaps there was a more commonly accepted understanding (or perhaps, a misunderstanding) that deserves some kind of notation. More on this later...
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Twinky
DWBH, please don't bow out! I take on board your comments about Paul. Yes, we have to consider where he is coming from. As well as to whom he is speaking, and what they might (or not) believe, and therefore what issues needed to be addressed.
Paul calls himself (1 Cor 15:9) "the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because..." And yet, he is accepted as such by the other "leadership" (for want of a better word). As perhaps also are some of those accompanying Paul, whom he took with him to Jerusalem when they agreed the appropriate doctrine for (former) Gentile believers.
Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them?
I must go back into my copy of the Didache and see what if anything that says.
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TLC
Then I take it you don't think Paul wrote Hebrews?
(a reference to it may surface later.)
I presume you meant to say that it wasn't a part of it.
I've sorta gathered that already from things you posted elsewhere on GSC. (Not that I agree with it, by any means.) But thank you for clarifying the perspective you're viewing it from.
So are you saying that you're going to pigeonhole everyone viewing it from the perspective of what's written in Romans-Philemon (and possibly Hebrews) as being some carnally minded "I'm of Paul" Christian? Or does a "Pauline Christian" imply or mean something else?
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TLC
I'd agree, as it could make for a more interesting discussion... but I would have been more hesitant to bring DWBH's background into the picture. (Or maybe not... I dunno.)
I don't doubt that there are (and most certainly were back in the first century) a lot of reasons for some more than others to discredit much of what Paul wrote. (Especially given what's written in Rom.11:25.) Paul's gospel different from the gospel message of Jesus Christ? It sure as shoot was (and is.)
Think vpw and/or twi made a clear distinction between them?
Nope. It was only when and where he/they wanted to. Which (unfortunately) resulted in HUGE problems, both doctrinally and in practice.
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TLC
For instance...
When is one (any) of these "gifts" given or received?
The difference in answers that can, are, and were thought to be correct are... well, rather varied, to say the least.
Why so much variance? Probably because it leaves open both what is given, and to whom.
And if the significance of who it is given to is missed, overlooked, or otherwise diminished, for the life of me I don't know how you get what is given right (much less when it is given or received)...
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TLC
Anyone care to say what they think or believe about this?
Maybe it's thought to be a trick question of some kind.
But the only "trick" in it is to help illustrate the differences some of us probably have (or had) in mind about what these "gifts" are (or, if you prefer, were.)
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi TLC.
You are in many ways doing exactly what extwits usually do in discussions about this topic. You double down on Paul and what YOU consider to be the "godbreathed" revelation of his Epistles. BEFORE engaging in your explanations of Pauline theology and doctrine, deciding whether ANY of it is indeed "godbreathed" is a necessary first step. What causes you to :
1) Believe Paul's Epistles are as godbreathed as The Gospels and Acts?
2) Do you believe that The 7 Pauline Epistles, Romans through II Thessalonians are indeed "The apex of all revelation given to the Church"?
3) Are you an "ultradispensationalist like Bullinger, Welch, and Wierwille?
4) your "definition" of Pauline Christian please? It is different from mine.
5) Your comparison of Pauline Scripture with anything else, (I.e. Gospels, Old Testament) regarding understanding these "gift ministries" prior to the Ascension of Christ? What is available OUTSIDE PAUL regarding "Apostles, prophets, or teachers"? The Aaronic Priesthoid was to the world, and therefore I would include "pastors and evangelists" as functions of the Aaronic Priesthood to Israel and the world.
6) Please explain how YOUR understanding of gift ministries differs from dictor's, da forehead's, B.G. Leonard, The Roman Catholic Church, and The Southern Baptist Convention?
7) Your understanding of who gives, sends, and energizes these "ministries" in the Church? God? Jesus Christ? Holy Spirit?
8) Your understanding of who benefits from these "gifts" and how?
That'll keep us busy for awhile with a substantive and reflective discussion. What think Ye?
Oh!......and BTW, it makes NO difference to me who wrote Hebrews. The debate has gone on for 1500 years now. Paul or someone else?
IF it's all "godbreathed" what difference does it make?
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WordWolf
In case you missed it, TLC,
that's a "brush-off."
Apparently, he doesn't want to discuss any of that with you.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Not so WordWolf. My questions are logical, honest and transparent. I encourage further discussion. TY for your always insightful input.
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Twinky
DWBH, please don 't attack TLC; better if you just ignore him!
But since you encourage further discussion, this is what I asked you:
And that could give some useful insight.
Thanks, Twinx
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TLC
Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't read or seen here on GSC where this topic has even been discussed before. So, unless you merely intended it as some (intentionally dumb) "put down" to start of your post with, then kindly find and post a link to it.
Discussions aren't always (and don't need to be) approached as some combative "winner take all" competition or debate, DWBH. And if you (or anyone else) have (or has) no intention or desire to simply (and politely) state and explain your position or view on this particular subject (or any other, for that matter), then I have no reason to state mine (be they thought or mislabeled by you as being something else.)
It's a premise, which I accept as being true. (And have, from before any contact or involvement with twi.)
I am fully aware that it's a premise which you do not accept. Therefore, our perspective on this subject (as well as most others) is different.
I believe they are specific to the current economy we live in.
Similar to, but not exactly.
It's not a term that I use (or am familiar with), so I have no definition for it. I did, however, ask for a clarification of what you meant by it (which you never responded to.) I must presume, therefore, that my summation of your use of it was correct.
This is something which I still don't understand well enough to have a clear opinion on. Therefore, I have certain reservations on making any direct connections or comparisons between them. The Ascension of Christ and the giving of gifts is spoken of in Psalms 68:18, which seems related to what Paul speaks of in Ephesians 4. So, I'm probably a bit more aware of what things aren't than what they are. Consequently, I am hesitant to make direct associations or equate any of the ministries that are spoken of in Ephesians with anything prior to his ascending to the right hand of God (including the 12 apostles of the gospels.) Furthermore, the Aaronic priesthood was not to the world, but to the nation of Israel. The entire nation of Israel is actually spoken of in prophecy as (conditionally) becoming a kingdom of priests, which, by reason of priestly function, would have been to the all the rest of the world. This is also why the ascended Christ is spoken of as being a priest after the order of Melchisedec in Hebrews. Melchisedec was a priest to the whole world, Aaron was not. But perhaps you care to speak further on what similarities or differences you see or think there is between these various ministries before and after the Ascension.
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TLC
If there's some specific point that you care to ask about, then first try stating what you believe or why you disagree with it. That allows us to discuss what either of us might think, rather than wasting the time and effort speculating on what somebody else might have at some point in time once thought.
If you're genuinely interested in my perspectives, then you should begin by responding to my previous question.
(that's the way discussions are suppose to work...)
Perhaps. Let's see where it leads or what becomes of it.
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Twinky
Well, I had hoped that this could be a serious discussion, not a slug-fest. Something (as its in Doctrinal) (ie not in the TWI forum) that maybe could have been useful.
But hey, have at it. Fight yourselves silly. Don't discuss the question, discuss anything but the question.
If anybody ever brings this back on topic, PM me so that I can keep up. Or PM me if you have any intelligent comment to offer and want to discuss outside the developing fisticuffs.
:asdf:/>
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TLC
How much more civil, sane, or reasonable do you think I could have said what I did so as to bring and keep it on topic, Twinky?
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waysider
Here's the situation as I see it. One school of thought says that God can't give special gifts to individuals because it would show favoritism, violating His "no respecter of persons" rule. Another school of thought says it doesn't violate the rules because the gifts aren't given to the individual but, rather, to the church, as it is the church on a whole that potentially benefits. Defining them individually becomes a moot point when we become aware that confirming their very existence is prerequisite. So, in essence, we must first show that the concept of gift ministries is valid and based on a correct understanding of related scripture.
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teachmevp
Can these gift ministries be use for preparing people for the judgement seat of Christ, but with a right attitude. Seems I saw in TWI was a kind of work thing going on, earn a reward or loose a reward?
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DontWorryBeHappy
TLC.....Hi!
I do not know what I said that ....ed you off. If you don't mind telling me what and where I said something that irked you I would honestly like to know if an apology is in order.
I appreciate your itemized answers to my 8 questions. I intend to respond after considering thoroughly what you wrote. However, I would like to resolve the animosity issue first if that's OK with you?
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TLC
Not that some here haven't, don't or won't... but given that it's (mostly) an anonymous message board that we're discussing this on, DWBH, I'm actually not inclined or prone to take much of anything personally. Neither you nor anyone else here knows who I am, so as I see it, there's really no reason to. Hence, there's no sense or reason for me to be (as you say) "....ed" or irked about what somebody else writes. Moreover, I'm inclined to see what is posted mostly as a reflection of someone's attitude (be it good or bad) and their ability (or lack of ability) to communicate. That said, be it known that I have no animosity issue towards you. Though, I do think that (like many ex-twits, myself not excluded) you have a long ways to go towards softening a well developed tendency towards egotism and expressing yourself in a condescending manner. If you need or want specific example of that in what you've posted previously, you might be in worse shape that particular area than some, and possibly do need (as I have at times) to have it pointed out. Speak up, if so.
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TLC
I'm inclined to somewhat agree with this, but would also point towards understanding Eph.4 as essential for validation. And perhaps it's not so much first knowing from who, to whom, what, why, or when any of these gifts are given that matters as much as seeing how it all fits or works together.
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