Defining the gift ministries

[Twinky]

From a previous thread:

This might be a suitable time to re-visit "all" the VPW definitions of these God-given gifts to the church.

Here's a definition of Apostle from the Bible Dictionary: Apostle which has a connotation of a person who is "sent" or "sent out" to do someone else's bidding.

Engendering this response from DWBH:

Hi Twinky!

Good question. The most accurate definition that I know is the one you ended your post with. That is what apostolos(sp?) most basic meaning is.

There are many Churches which have varying understanding and definition of an apostle. Every mainstream Christian denomination has something to say about apostles. There are also many Apostolic churches and ministries here in the US. There is a good sized portion of black folk here who have Apostolic Churches. They all define apostle differently, and most often their definitions reflect their core Christian belief and church tradition or history. There is quite a lot of writing done on this topic so there is quite a lot of muddling through volumes of stuff to find out what the various churches and sects believe.

My take? The same as the definition you gave from Bible Dictionary. A Christian Apostle is one sent by Jesus Christ to do the Lord's bidding. Pretty simple. All the stuff about new light, old light, dim light, is all vic's own PI...

In the large denominations and many smaller churches there is a common point to their qualifications for apostleship. The doctrine is that in order to be a real Apostle, one had to have seen Jesus, either in person like the original 12, or by revelation as Paul did on the road to Damascus. Some also believe there must be an assigned mission from Jesus that each apostle is called to carry out, thus being sent out by Christ to do His bidding.

So again, my take is that a Christian Apostle is a man or woman called by Christ to carry out a specific mission on His behalf, sent out by Christ to do His bidding. That's it for me. I believe God's description of an Apostle is purposely vague so that the carnal mind would not come up with all their own qualifications and definitions, all of which put Christ and His Apostles into a man made box, just like vic did. No limitations, qualifications as far as God's concerned in my book. Far too constrictive and limiting IMO, of both Jesus and His Apostles.

Perhaps we could have a sensible discussion about those famous "gift ministries" – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.

And let's not forget about these other "gift ministries" that got very little press in TWI:

1 Cor 12:1,5-6,28-31

Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed...

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. ⁵ There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work…

And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

From this whole chapter (sometimes headed Concerning Spiritual Gifts) we see again that there are Apostles, Prophets, Teachers – and also Workers of Miracles, Healers, Guides, and Speakers in Tongues. No mention of Pastors or Evangelists! But lots of mention of other "gift ministries."

PLEASE PUT ASIDE ALL TWI-TYPE DEFINITIONS and let's see how mainstream churches (if such a thing exists) defines in particular these ministries " – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Who are these people (if they are still existing today) and what is their role? Who decides this? How? What "qualifies" them for these roles? Are the people of both sexes or are only males considered suitable? Has any prophet spoken something that should/should not be done and it has observably come to pass yet? Or is a prophet simply someone of special wisdom?

Maybe you go to a church where it is believed that these roles don't exist/ died out with the first bunch in C1. Have you formulated an idea of what these people did?

Say what you want and if you want to define any role, please make it clear what role or roles you are discussing. I accept DWBH's point that there are no limitations or qualifications from God's point of view. However, there has to be some particular thing that makes these particularly gifted people different, or more outstanding, in that role, from the general congregation. Otherwise, we would all be doing the same thing, with the risk of there being uncertain sounds and us being clanging cymbals (1 Cor 13).

I TRULY DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A TWI-BASHING THREAD – can we have a sensible unhistrionic discussion please?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Twinky

[teachmevp]

From a previous thread:

Engendering this response from DWBH:

Perhaps we could have a sensible discussion about those famous "gift ministries" – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.

And let's not forget about these other "gift ministries" that got very little press in TWI:

From this whole chapter (sometimes headed Concerning Spiritual Gifts) we see again that there are Apostles, Prophets, Teachers – and also Workers of Miracles, Healers, Guides, and Speakers in Tongues. No mention of Pastors or Evangelists! But lots of mention of other "gift ministries."

PLEASE PUT ASIDE ALL TWI-TYPE DEFINITIONS and let's see how mainstream churches (if such a thing exists) defines in particular these ministries " – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Who are these people (if they are still existing today) and what is their role? Who decides this? How? What "qualifies" them for these roles? Are the people of both sexes or are only males considered suitable? Has any prophet spoken something that should/should not be done and it has observably come to pass yet? Or is a prophet simply someone of special wisdom?

Maybe you go to a church where it is believed that these roles don't exist/ died out with the first bunch in C1. Have you formulated an idea of what these people did?

Say what you want and if you want to define any role, please make it clear what role or roles you are discussing. I accept DWBH's point that there are no limitations or qualifications from God's point of view. However, there has to be some particular thing that makes these particularly gifted people different, or more outstanding, in that role, from the general congregation. Otherwise, we would all be doing the same thing, with the risk of there being uncertain sounds and us being clanging cymbals (1 Cor 13).

I TRULY DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A TWI-BASHING THREAD – can we have a sensible unhistrionic discussion please?

We see the “prayer of faith” Israel walked by sight, Yahweh allowed their prayer life to work in connection with sight as that earthly kingdom was on their doorstep. Yahweh worked in connection with the sign nation, the healings that were performed and the power resident in the prayer of faith. When the kingdom program was ongoing and Jesus was ready to rule and reign right here on earth, a troubled believer could pray the prayer of faith, when presented with suffering circumstances and those circumstance would disappear. Yahweh provided that prayer of faith, because that kingdom was at hand and the time for troubling circumstances had come to an end. It was time to put an end to pain and suffering, because it was time for the King to rule and reign on this earth.

But this happen, the time period of the parable Jesus gave in Luke chapter 13, the one additional year given Israel until the fig tree was to be cut down, still has the majority of a year to transpire at this point. This is what Jesus meant when he said he gave Peter the “keys” to the Kingdom. Peter had the ability to “unlock” and “open the door” to the Kingdom, he proclaimed the message they had to believe. Jesus gave himself a ransom for MANY. Who are the “many” spoken of? Israel! The beginning of Israel’s last days of her program, they were being equipped for the upcoming time of tribulation right on their horizon. 


Yahweh used the physical senses in every respect in connection with his sign nation at Israel’s high holy feast day called Pentecost. Yahweh gave his sign nation things to SEE and to HEAR and to SPEAK! The physical senses were used by Yahweh that Israel might WITNESS their deliverance. The expressions “before our eyes” and “in our sight” tell us how Yahweh worked as Israel was approaching the last days of her program, which was to culminate in an entrance to her promised earthly kingdom. In spite of all these visual manifestations that Yahweh worked in time past, Israel for the most part remained in unbelief. They were either attributing Yahweh’s work to Satan, or they were attributing Satan’s work to Yahweh. 
Israel as a nation was still the focus in Acts chapter 2, as they were given a taste of their promised earthly kingdom there with Yahweh’s empowerments for The Tribulation endurance and for the earthly kingdom entrance.

I enjoy manifesting that power from what I know it, but learning the body of Christ did not start here Acts 2 is interesting?

[teachmevp]

I heard someone say VP was an Apostle, but does the body of Christ need a new Apostle, after all Paul wrote it all down for us?

And when we come to understand that we are living in a brand new age called “the dispensation of grace” and that that earthly kingdom program is no longer in progress, but on hold, we come to realize God through his power from on high wants to stabilize every believer today in a completely different way. What is this stabilizing?

And maturity is all about the degree to which you participate in the increase of the Body of Christ unto the deifying of its self in love. The degree to which you participate in that which brings unity to the Body of Christ and edifies the believer to that degree you can consider yourself to be mature. It is much more than taking in knowledge, it is a renewed mind. Who determines this maturity when it come to these gift ministries?

Edited February 29, 2016 by teachmevp

[Oakspear]

From my interactions with church people over the years, I have noted some variety in how these "gift ministries" (I know the term isn't strictly biblical, but I put it in quotes to stay in line with your thread title)

In general, people call their minister their pastor. It seems to have become a generic term among many Christians. Catholics call the head, or senior, priest in a parish the pastor. I'm ULC ordained and officiate at weddings - I get called "pastor" all the time (although I discourage it)

Evangelist seems to be a description of somebody who is well-known as a preacher, usually to large groups. I believe Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, among others, are referred to as evangelists

I have never heard anyone described as an apostle

I have heard some people informally referred to as prophets if they have demonstrated firey preaching ability, kind of "preacher" on steroids

Teacher is a description that I have heard only ascribed to someone who is actively teaching, say at school, or in a formal setting, never as a "minsitry" per se

Of course this is only my own experience and observation, which may be limited compared to what is actually out there

[Twinky]

Thanks, Oakspear.

EVANGELIST (PREACHER ?)

from euangelizo ... eu = good; angelizo = bring tidings, messages

I can see "Preacher" as one who brings forth good tidings, or messages. Though all Christians should be bringers of good (or glad) tidings.

It would be true to say that some people appear to be particularly adept at what we call preaching, giving the good message from a pulpit or similar.

Others are perhaps more adept at speaking to other people on a smaller basis, maybe one on one, and giving them the good word, the message of hope, or whatever you want to call it.

So both could reasonably be called Evangelists.

PASTOR

Occurs only once in the NT and then in the plural, in our passage about the gift ministries.

Poimen = uncertain origin, but translated "shepherd(s)" every time except this one occasion where it is translated as Pastors.

I'd agree with you, Oakspear, that a wedding officiant is hardly a "shepherd" to the wedding couple, nor a pastor to the same. More inthe nature of (administrative) "helps" - if anything :)

[Oakspear]

I'd agree with you, Oakspear, that a wedding officiant is hardly a "shepherd" to the wedding couple, nor a pastor to the same. More inthe nature of (administrative) "helps" - if anything :)/>

Honestly I'm uncomfortable when people call me that, like I don't think I've earned it. But I think people get ideas in their heads about what people are and stick them in pre-grooved slots...maybe that's another thread

I use the title "reverend" in my advertising in order to communicate that I'm "legal", but always introduce myself to couples by my given name

[MRAP]

Thanks Twinky for wanting to keep all twi criteria of the gift ministery outa this discussion.

The question posed is, as I think I understood it: do we have these gift ministeries today and how do we ID them?

I brought up the facts about my time spent with Donnie Fugit, an Evangelist and accepted as a gift ministery evangelist by twi.

Like that matters but it's strange how twi acknowledged that - someone else, please chime in.

Given: we don't trust twi on who "gets" a gift ministery: get's is/was = absurd.

Let's take Mr. Fugit as an example. I put forth that he had the gift ministery prior to coming to twi but it was the blessing of twi that gave him accreditation. I made that point earlier and during the discourse folk/s thought I was dissing on Mr. Fugit; that's not the case.

Looking and speaking with Donnie would not impinge upon me he was an evangelist - ship, I was already a Christian, why would he need to evangelize to me. Nor, as I was wrong, should I expect him to teach me/us how to evangelize. I have come to realize that the job of a gift minister is not to teach others how to do their job - their job is given to "THEM" by God. I think I read that somewhere here earlier.

I will attest that hopefully, we have gift ministers around us but that no one can point them out to us; I don't think we have the ability to point them out unless God tells us but then, why does he need to, not our business. Is it best to just let them do their job and not bother about ranking folks in the family?

Just as with angels unaware, am sure we meet gift ministry folks just as commonly and don't have a clue - that's the point, we should not be looking for a clue. They are here to bless the born again, the family and as I understand, the organized family. Thus, if you are like me, a stand aloner, then we may miss out on them.

I wish Donnie were still around, I only wonder what he would share and what questions he would answer.

Old as we are and retired as we might be are the considerations of taking forth the word as it were - youth is wasted on the young. Sorry, it's a personal dilema.

[chockfull]

Not to be too cynical but I think there is probably plenty of practical precedent in TWI where you could define "gift ministries" as the people upon whom you were expected to bestow gifts on over and beyond your ABS.

[chockfull]

My experience in mainstream Christianity is that the term "gift ministries" is never used. My experiences parallel Oakspears. People loosely use the terms "pastor" and "evangelist". Nobody uses the term apostle. Teachers are a secular profession and that term usually doesn't cross over into Christianity discussing a "pastor"s talents. Prophets are usually a Muslim cleric sending out suicide bombers - that's the only modern use of that word I've heard.

The TWIT practice of speaking the "gift ministry" into being with a word of prophecy over an ordination candidate also seems a bit flim-flammy no? I mean there's what you hear in the prophecy and then there's the reality of how the person really is. For example the foxster running twit now - "prophecy" would seem to indicate a "pastor and prophet". Reality was the "gift" was nothing more than overwhelmed schoolteacher micromanagement. And a soulmate to help decide assignments.

As a matter of recollection a lot of those "gifts" had an immediate impact on the body of asking how they could give it back.

[waysider]

I don't think anyone has noted yet how Wierwille sidestepped the apparent scriptural contradiction by saying they weren't gifts to the individuals, they were gifts to the church.

[TLC]

Not to be too cynical but I think there is probably plenty of practical precedent in TWI where you could define "gift ministries" as the people upon whom you were expected to bestow gifts on over and beyond your ABS.

If that were so, I never made (or saw) that sort of connection or association with it. But then, perhaps I was simply a bit more sheltered from it, having mostly been at root locations. It seems there were widely differing opinions or experiences at to what was even done or expected there. In fact, when asked, Howard specifically told me that ABS was not expected of staff (because it didn't make any sense to pay tax to the IRS on the additional wage, given that we were being paid on a "need" basis.) So, by and large, we didn't (or at least, never thought of it those terms.) However, as I seem to recall it, gifts (which I'd agree, many or most times did have a certain degree "social expectation" associated with them) were more associated with positions of authority (or perhaps "social importance"), and weren't necessarily related to "gift ministries" per se. But, this might be only my perspective of it.

My experience in mainstream Christianity is that the term "gift ministries" is never used. My experiences parallel Oakspears. People loosely use the terms "pastor" and "evangelist". Nobody uses the term apostle. Teachers are a secular profession and that term usually doesn't cross over into Christianity discussing a "pastor"s talents. Prophets are usually a Muslim cleric sending out suicide bombers - that's the only modern use of that word I've heard.

The TWIT practice of speaking the "gift ministry" into being with a word of prophecy over an ordination candidate also seems a bit flim-flammy no? I mean there's what you hear in the prophecy and then there's the reality of how the person really is. For example the foxster running twit now - "prophecy" would seem to indicate a "pastor and prophet". Reality was the "gift" was nothing more than overwhelmed schoolteacher micromanagement. And a soulmate to help decide assignments.

As a matter of recollection a lot of those "gifts" had an immediate impact on the body of asking how they could give it back.

Yeah, but that's quite different from what the Internet evidently might have (and seems to have) spawned.

I don't think anyone has noted yet how Wierwille sidestepped the apparent scriptural contradiction by saying they weren't gifts to the individuals, they were gifts to the church.

I've certainly thought about how the practice of it differed from the doctrinal side of it, even if I haven't said it...

Edited March 3, 2016 by TLC

[waysider]

Meanwhile, out on the field, Joe Blow twig leader wasn't even allowed to use funds from the offering to buy a money order or pay for the postage to send it to HQ. Use your own money for the privilege of giving it away. I suppose we could have itemized that on our taxes. Oh, wait, we worked at crappy minimum wage jobs and never made enough to do a long form.

So, yeah, there were different standards on the field than there were at HQ.

[TLC]

Israel as a nation was still the focus in Acts chapter 2, as they were given a taste of their promised earthly kingdom there with Yahweh’s empowerments for The Tribulation endurance and for the earthly kingdom entrance.

I enjoy manifesting that power from what I know it, but learning the body of Christ did not start here Acts 2 is interesting?

Looks to me like there's more in your post that could be expounded upon.

Furthermore, I suspect that what you're talking about here is one of the biggest failures of "rightly dividing the word of truth" that TWI, its offshoots, as well as many others continue to make.

(Though, I'm not sure why you posted it in this thread, or exactly how you're specifically relating it to defining the gift ministries.

[TLC]

I heard someone say VP was an Apostle, but does the body of Christ need a new Apostle, after all Paul wrote it all down for us?

A fair enough question. But, it's also one that would first requires a correct definition or understanding of what an apostle is or does. (Which I'm not convinced we yet have.) Granted, Paul was the apostle to us Gentiles. Were there others? What about Barnabus?

Much clearer is the reality that we can have (or at least, it seems that we possibly could have) ten thousand instructors in Christ. But how many fathers (in Christ) can you have? Yeah... that's right. Just one. (And it ain't vpw.) How is any of us fathered in Christ? Through the gospel. What gospel? The one that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2? Nope.

Seems you have to first figure out exactly which (and/or who's) gospel your fathered by before understanding who it is that "fathered" you in it.

[TLC]

Well, it was another thread that drew this out of me (which I though would probably me appropriately posted in the doctrinal forum.)

Arrgg...

Given what has been (perhaps still is) discussed elsewhere concerning the "gift ministries," and that it's surfaced again here, seems I can't resist myself commenting a little further on the matter.

(But maybe this should get moved to a different or new thread over in doctrinal...)

Who do we primarily think of benefiting from any gift ministry?

Plainly there can be (and undoubtedly are) multiple benefits and/or multiple beneficiaries.

But who all is (or isn't) in the list, and who (or what) do we envision being the top or foremost of it?

...And why might (or does) any of us or think of these in the order that we do?

I'm not advocating that there is one and only one "right" answer to the question. Rather, I think how anyone chooses to answer that will likely speak volumes as to what their perspective is on more than just this one issue, and where they are in their spiritual attitude or development.

(That being said, probably no one will care (or dare) to answer, but these are the kind of questions that I have pondered myself for many years... especially when crossing paths with certain things that appear to be so out of joint, or whacked out, with what I suppose to be more in alignment and harmony with what I've surmised thus far to be right and/or true.)

Any takers, for any of these questions?

[Twinky]

Please have annother look at my starter post:

Perhaps we could have a sensible discussion about those famous "gift ministries" – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.

And let's not forget about these other "gift ministries" that got very little press in TWI:

From this whole chapter (sometimes headed Concerning Spiritual Gifts) we see again that there are Apostles, Prophets, Teachers – and also Workers of Miracles, Healers, Guides, and Speakers in Tongues. No mention of Pastors or Evangelists! But lots of mention of other "gift ministries."

PLEASE PUT ASIDE ALL TWI-TYPE DEFINITIONS and let's see how mainstream churches (if such a thing exists) defines in particular these ministries " – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Who are these people (if they are still existing today) and what is their role? Who decides this? How? What "qualifies" them for these roles? Are the people of both sexes or are only males considered suitable? Has any prophet spoken something that should/should not be done and it has observably come to pass yet? Or is a prophet simply someone of special wisdom?

Maybe you go to a church where it is believed that these roles don't exist/ died out with the first bunch in C1. Have you formulated an idea of what these people did?

Say what you want and if you want to define any role, please make it clear what role or roles you are discussing. I accept DWBH's point that there are no limitations or qualifications from God's point of view. However, there has to be some particular thing that makes these particularly gifted people different, or more outstanding, in that role, from the general congregation. Otherwise, we would all be doing the same thing, with the risk of there being uncertain sounds and us being clanging cymbals (1 Cor 13).

I TRULY DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A TWI-BASHING THREAD – can we have a sensible unhistrionic discussion please?

Would it be possible for responses to address this question, please?

Chockfull, I hear what you say!!

My experience in mainstream Christianity is that the term "gift ministries" is never used. My experiences parallel Oakspears. People loosely use the terms "pastor" and "evangelist". Nobody uses the term apostle. Teachers are a secular profession and that term usually doesn't cross over into Christianity discussing a "pastor"s talents. Prophets are usually a Muslim cleric sending out suicide bombers - that's the only modern use of that word I've heard.

And yet, I am sure there are some people who are far more gifted at teaching (expounding the gospel) than others, just as there are some who are better at what's known as "pastoral care." And some people (evangelists?) can talk to practically anyone and get them enthused by the gospel.

So, I am equally sure there must be "apostles" and "prophets" - whatever they are in the current face of Christianity. Perhaps the current need in the Christian church is for evangelists, pastors and teachers.

Or perhaps we conflate the roles of apostle and prophet with evangelistic, pastoral and teaching roles?

[Mark Sanguinetti]

1 Corinthians 12:28 continues this chapter.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

King James Version

This is the godly order for the work of the ministry. The word “first”, in the Greek, is the word “proton” and means, from Thayer’s lexicon, first in time or place or in any succession of things or persons; first in rank, influence and honor. First the apostles were given and then communicated the Word of Christ. They are the ones that Jesus Christ himself originally trained. They are the ones that the bible records as first having received the Holy Spirit and then manifested it. Additionally, the writing of scripture was delegated, by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, for the most part, to the apostles. Chief among them was the amazing apostle Paul, who wrote thirteen of our biblical epistles to the church or to members in particular.

“Secondarily” is the Greek word “deuteros” and, according to Strong’s Greek definitions, means second in time, place, or rank. The prophets secondarily, in support of the apostles doctrine, confirm and point the believers back to this doctrine of God’s Word in all its purity. See 1 Corinthians 14:37, which will be covered later in this teaching series. However, the apostles and prophets together lay the foundation for the church of which Jesus Christ is chief cornerstone.

Ephesians 2:19-20

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

King James Version

Third, “tritos” in Greek, the teachers take that same doctrine, as originally given by the apostles and then confirmed by the prophets, and expound on it with great simplicity so that all believers who want to learn can understand it. After this, also in verse 28, some of the other gifts and ways of serving are listed in no particular order.

A friend of mine, Julian Kernes, who has been one of my proof readers for this teaching, summed up 1 Corinthians 12:28. “Apostles revealed the doctrine, prophets directed people to the doctrine and teachers taught the doctrine much like you have written. Miracles, healings, helps, governments, and tongues are either the manifestation of the spirit or actions taken based on the doctrine of the Word of God. First comes the doctrine of the Word, then the practical application of the Word of God.” Next, 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 states:

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers

of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all

interpret?

King James Version

A series of questions is asked. These questions may require an answer, but this answer is easy and the same for all. No! However, in stating no, many believers often forget the context of this entire section of scripture. Namely, the smooth running and operation of the church. To be a viable participant and member in particular of the church you are not required to be all and to do all these things listed. Rather, the ideal church is one that works together with each member supplying and fulfilling a particular need for the body of Christ. Hence, you have a variety of people contributing gifts, services, and operations. 1 Corinthians 12:31 concludes this chapter.

31 But covet earnestly (or eagerly desire) the best gifts (charisma): and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way (or from the New International Version) And now I will show you the most excellent way. King James/New International Versions

This most excellent way, shown in the next chapter, is God’s love. It is through this love that the church is able to work together in a unified fashion with all the various gifts distributed to God’s people.

1 Corinthians Chapter 12

[TLC]

A friend of mine, Julian Kernes, who has been one of my proof readers for this teaching, summed up 1 Corinthians 12:28. “Apostles revealed the doctrine, prophets directed people to the doctrine and teachers taught the doctrine much like you have written. Miracles, healings, helps, governments, and tongues are either the manifestation of the spirit or actions taken based on the doctrine of the Word of God. First comes the doctrine of the Word, then the practical application of the Word of God.”

This sounds simple enough, but it may not be complete or sufficient enough. I realize that some here (perhaps many, or even most) don't seem to give much credence to the dispensationalists viewpoint, but it does allows for certain differences in apostles if there were difference in "the doctrine" they were sent to reveal. Paul plainly identifies himself as "the apostle" to us Gentiles (Rom.11:3), and proclaims (in 1Cor.3:10) that "as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon."

Yet, Eph.2:20 says what (at least some) other apostles and prophets have done (or do?) is included in "the foundation of the apostles and prophets." So, is anything built upon "the foundation" thought to somehow still be a part of the foundation, or is the foundation that Paul laid only a part of the foundation... as in, a different section or part of the house? (feel free to add comments or weigh in on it.)

To be a viable participant and member in particular of the church you are not required to be all and to do all these things listed. Rather, the ideal church is one that works together with each member supplying and fulfilling a particular need for the body of Christ. Hence, you have a variety of people contributing gifts, services, and operations. 1 Corinthians 12:31 concludes this chapter.

31 But covet earnestly (or eagerly desire) the best gifts (charisma): and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way (or from the New International Version) And now I will show you the most excellent way. King James/New International Versions

This most excellent way, shown in the next chapter, is God’s love. It is through this love that the church is able to work together in a unified fashion with all the various gifts distributed to God’s people.

Not only is the most excellent way, perhaps it is the only sensible way.

[teachmevp]

Looks to me like there's more in your post that could be expounded upon.

Furthermore, I suspect that what you're talking about here is one of the biggest failures of "rightly dividing the word of truth" that TWI, its offshoots, as well as many others continue to make.

(Though, I'm not sure why you posted it in this thread, or exactly how you're specifically relating it to defining the gift ministries.

I understand these gift ministries are for preparing people for the judgment seat of Christ. If so, could an apostle come alone and correct, not doctrine but attitudes. This is just a thought, but God could use an apostle to correct a group of people's attitude. What I mean is could this “I am of Apollos” and “I am of Peter” be about peoples attitudes?

[teachmevp]

Can we do these gift ministries without knowing we are doing them? I mean, TLC was a apostle in a way, I know now God was talking to me through TLC about my attitude?

[teachmevp]

The gift ministries, who receives the gift? Could I have been gifted by God through TLC being a apostle about my attitude?

[teachmevp]

Looks to me like there's more in your post that could be expounded upon.

Furthermore, I suspect that what you're talking about here is one of the biggest failures of "rightly dividing the word of truth" that TWI, its offshoots, as well as many others continue to make.

(Though, I'm not sure why you posted it in this thread, or exactly how you're specifically relating it to defining the gift ministries.

I don't know why I posted that Acts, but there is a truth in there about attitude. Please help me out with this thought. So this Ananiasa in Acts chapter 5, could that attitude have killed him. In Acts chapter 5, they owe that seven years (Jacobs trouble) under the law contract. My bad attitude killed my relationship with the person who started this thread. Twinky was showing me the last Adam, the best truth their is. What gift ministry did WordWolf do, I received a gift through his wisdom. Waysider could link all this together. But how are we gifted by Waysider's gift ministries?

Edited March 23, 2016 by teachmevp

[Mark Sanguinetti]

The main thing to have a gift ministry is to be service oriented. A special title is secondary at best.

Please don't turn this into an argument. This is the doctrinal forum. This requires scriptural analysis.

I do not see apostles today. Historically, Paul was an apostle and we have been left with his very good teachings in his role as an apostle. Today we can have other ministries as long as they are service oriented and under Jesus Christ and his Lordship. I also consider Jesus Christ my friend and the equivalent of a spiritual genius.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mark Sanguinetti

[TLC]

I don't know why I posted that Acts, but there is a truth in there about attitude. Please help me out with this thought. So this Ananiasa in Acts chapter 5, could that attitude have killed him. In Acts chapter 5, they owe that seven years (Jacobs trouble) under the law contract. My bad attitude killed my relationship with the person who started this thread. Twinky was showing me the last Adam, the best truth their is. What gift ministry did WordWolf do, I received a gift through his wisdom. Waysider could link all this together. But how are we gifted by Waysider's gift ministries?

You've gone completely bonkers on us, teach.

I'm casting a vote for DWBH's post:

Yo teach! Ever heard of Xanax?

[TLC]

The main thing to have a gift ministry is to be service oriented. A special title is secondary at best.

I suspect that it's probably easier to notice gift ministries in operation when no titles whatsoever are/were involved. Why? Well, for no other reason than you just aren't looking for or expecting it until it hits you in the face (as it appears to be almost so effortless, there's practially no other explanation for it.)

Please don't turn this into an argument. This is the doctrinal forum. This requires scriptural analysis.

Good luck tryin' to analyze my previous statement with scripture.

Does that automatically mean or imply that what I said is wrong?

I do not see apostles today.

Shoot, I think you can see or find darn near anything on the Internet nowadays. (Or so it seems.)

Historically, Paul was an apostle and we have been left with his very good teachings in his role as an apostle.

True. But perhaps they are just not understood as well as well as they could or should be.

And, I don't see much in your post that is an actual response to (or comment on) this post:

This sounds simple enough, but it may not be complete or sufficient enough. I realize that some here (perhaps many, or even most) don't seem to give much credence to the dispensationalists viewpoint, but it does allows for certain differences in apostles if there were difference in "the doctrine" they were sent to reveal. Paul plainly identifies himself as "the apostle" to us Gentiles (Rom.11:3), and proclaims (in 1Cor.3:10) that "as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon."

Yet, Eph.2:20 says what (at least some) other apostles and prophets have done (or do?) is included in "the foundation of the apostles and prophets." So, is anything built upon "the foundation" thought to somehow still be a part of the foundation, or is the foundation that Paul laid only a part of the foundation... as in, a different section or part of the house? (feel free to add comments or weigh in on it.)

Edited March 23, 2016 by TLC