Wow, never heard that one before. I'm stuffed then.
This pastor takes every opportunity to insert his theology of the trinity into teachings. He even said, much like another teacher I heard, that the comma in Romans 9:5 needs to be moved:
Original from American Standard Version:
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen
Pastor authorized revision:
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all God, blessed for ever. Amen
If "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus is God, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead, thou shalt be saved " (based on KJV verse), then who exactly raised Jesus? Why not simply say, "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus is God, and shalt believe in thine heart that he arose from the dead…"
There, right there in the verse, is the pointer to an outside agency, not Jesus as God. Did Jesus-God's power fail, then? Did Jesus-God not know how to pre-program his resurrection? You're talking about the creator of the universe, the "hands that flung stars into space" (one popular current song, gag, gag) – and he can't get up in the morning? Does Jesus-God have to rely on one of his side-kicks for a bit of extra help?
"Lord"
KJV Translation Count — Total: 748x
The KJV translates Strongs G2962 in the following manner:Lord (667x), lord (54x), master (11x), sir (6x), Sir (6x), misc (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [The Outline of Biblical Usage was created by Larry Pierce, creator of the Online Bible, and is used with permission.] (see my note below)
he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
the possessor and disposer of a thing
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
[*]is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master[*]this title is given to: God, the Messiah
Strong's Definitions
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.
"God"
KJV Translation Count — Total: 1,343x
The KJV translates Strongs G2316 in the following manner:God (1,320x), god (13x), godly (3x), God-ward (with G4214) (2x), misc (5x).
Outline of Biblical Usage (see my note below)
a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
the Godhead, trinity
[*]spoken of the only and true God
refers to the things of God
his counsels, interests, things due to him
[*]whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
God's representative or viceregent
Strong's Definitions
θεός theós, theh'-os; of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:—X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).
The Outline of Biblical Usage / Online Bible has deliberately changed some of the definitions : "Online Bible also altered Thayer's definitions concerning the Holy Spirit and the divinity of Christ since Thayer was a Unitarian." (my emphasis) https://www.bluelett.../BLBStrongs.cfm
(Source: BlueLetterBible – same info on CrossWalk)
John Gill's commentary offers:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
That is, if a man shall make a good, sincere, and hearty confession to God, before the church and people of God, and before the world, that Christ is his Lord and Saviour, whom he desires to serve, and to be saved by; and this as arising from a comfortable experience of the grace of God in his soul, and from a true faith in Christ in his heart, wherefore it follows,
and shall believe in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved;
for this article of Christ's resurrection includes the several other articles of faith: it supposes his death, and that supposes his life, and the obedience of it; and his life implies his being here on earth, and that his coming down from heaven to do the will of his Father; and this is the rather mentioned, which is here ascribed to God the Father, though not to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, because that Christ is risen again for our justification, with which true faith is principally concerned; for such a faith is intended, not which lies in a mere assent to the truth of this, or any other article of the Christian religion; but which is concerned with Christ for righteousness, life, and glory; and with such a faith salvation is certainly and inseparably connected.
Even the sometimes funky Message gives this: Say the welcoming word to God - "Jesus is my Master" - embracing, body and soul, God's work of doing in us what he did in raising Jesus from the dead.
Wycliffe gives this: "That if thou acknowledge in thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believest in thine heart, that God raised him from death [that God raised him from dead], thou shalt be safe."
Not one translation offers "Jesus is God" – you can view this one verse very easily in many online Bibles .
(Edited to improve consistency of appearance, because copy&paste gives too many peculiar styles)
This pastor takes every opportunity to insert his theology of the trinity into teachings. He even said, much like another teacher I heard, that the comma in Romans 9:5 needs to be moved:
Original from American Standard Version:
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen
Pastor authorized revision:
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all God, blessed for ever. Amen
Wierwille would have been proud! Tinkering wit puncuation to make it say what he wants!
Regarding the Lord = God contention, some Trinitarians rely on the fact that when the NT quotes the OT, Yahweh/Jehovah is usually translated into Greek as kurios (lord)
There certainly are some radical trinis out there.
I went to a local evening Bible school (to try to get a different non-Way view of things). There were a variety of teachers from different churchy backgrounds – it was interesting considering their points of view, some of which I would run by other churchmen whose views I had come to really respect.
One of these teachers had the idea that Jesus was walking about in the OT and specifically referred to Dan3:25, where Jesus himself is in the furnace with Daniel and his buddies. Hmm.
Give that one to your pastor, Tom. He’ll like it. Others think it hilarious.
There certainly are some radical trinis out there.
I went to a local evening Bible school (to try to get a different non-Way view of things). There were a variety of teachers from different churchy backgrounds – it was interesting considering their points of view, some of which I would run by other churchmen whose views I had come to really respect.
One of these teachers had the idea that Jesus was walking about in the OT and specifically referred to Dan3:25, where Jesus himself is in the furnace with Daniel and his buddies. Hmm.
Give that one to your pastor, Tom. He’ll like it. Others think it hilarious.
I truly appreciate all the replies and I mean no disrespect to anyone of the trinitarian doctrine.
Since leaving TWI, I have been questioning and examining everything I learned.
When the verse in question came up, and then the followup of moving a comma, it really shocked me. THought I knew what Romans 10:9-10 said. Actually had looked up the definitions Twinky provided, but was sure I had missed something becaue a sincere pastor couldn't be wrong
The replies by Twinky confirmed that I actually do know how to read and use the reference books I still own :B)
Wierwille would have been proud! Tinkering wit puncuation to make it say what he wants!
Regarding the Lord = God contention, some Trinitarians rely on the fact that when the NT quotes the OT, Yahweh/Jehovah is usually translated into Greek as kurios (lord)
Yes, that may be where this gentlemen went off the rails. God is Lord as is Jesus, but he missed that God is Lord over Jesus.
Since leaving TWI, I have been questioning and examining everything I learned.
And that questioning leads us all to different places
One thing that I have seen (your mileage may vary) is that no matter what ones position on Jesus is/isn't God; Trinitarian/Unitarian, you have to explain away or ignore verses that contradict each other. I doubt I'll have time to fully document that, but that's where questioning & examining have led me.
It's good to have another look, and to think for yourself, Tom.
I have met some awesome trinis and see they get prayers answered. They sincerely love God and you can see God at work in and through them.
I have met some awesome NON trinis (though far fewer non-Ts) and see they also get prayers answered. They sincerely love God and you can see God at work in and through them, too.
Conclusion: God and Jesus Christ have patience to put up with puny confused humans. They know we get things wrong. They aren't concerned so much about the details, as the heart to serve.
It's important for us all (including that atheist Raf) ( :) ) to know what we believe, and why. Enjoy people with differing viewpoints. Don't start a war over it. Search diligently, open-mindedly, and use your (God-given) critical thinking. Life is more interesting without Kool-Aid.
Or (alternative conclusion, that Raf might prefer) - neither God nor Jesus Christ exists. :evilshades:/>
That's two mentions. One more and he shows up. Like Beetlejuice.
Kidding aside, since we are in doctrinal, and there is a separate subforum for discussing issues from a perspective of doubt, it's assumed that we are talking about whether the Bible teaches a Trinity, and that's the only relevant question. Arguing against the existence of God or the lordship of Jesus Christ would be off-topic.
Recommended Posts
Twinky
Wow, never heard that one before. I'm stuffed then.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Geiger
This pastor takes every opportunity to insert his theology of the trinity into teachings. He even said, much like another teacher I heard, that the comma in Romans 9:5 needs to be moved:
Original from American Standard Version:
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen
Pastor authorized revision:
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all God, blessed for ever. Amen
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
If "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus is God, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead, thou shalt be saved " (based on KJV verse), then who exactly raised Jesus? Why not simply say, "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus is God, and shalt believe in thine heart that he arose from the dead…"
There, right there in the verse, is the pointer to an outside agency, not Jesus as God. Did Jesus-God's power fail, then? Did Jesus-God not know how to pre-program his resurrection? You're talking about the creator of the universe, the "hands that flung stars into space" (one popular current song, gag, gag) – and he can't get up in the morning? Does Jesus-God have to rely on one of his side-kicks for a bit of extra help?
"Lord"
KJV Translation Count — Total: 748x
The KJV translates Strongs G2962 in the following manner: Lord (667x), lord (54x), master (11x), sir (6x), Sir (6x), misc (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [The Outline of Biblical Usage was created by Larry Pierce, creator of the Online Bible, and is used with permission.] (see my note below)
- he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
-
the possessor and disposer of a thing
- the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
- in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
- a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
-
the Godhead, trinity
- refers to the things of God
- his counsels, interests, things due to him
-
God's representative or viceregent
- of magistrates and judges
- God the Father, the first person in the trinity
- Christ, the second person of the trinity
- Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
Edited by Twinky[*]is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master[*]this title is given to: God, the Messiah
Strong's Definitions
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.
"God"
KJV Translation Count — Total: 1,343x
The KJV translates Strongs G2316 in the following manner: God (1,320x), god (13x), godly (3x), God-ward (with G4214) (2x), misc (5x).
Outline of Biblical Usage (see my note below)
[*]spoken of the only and true God
[*]whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
Strong's Definitions
θεός theós, theh'-os; of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:—X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).
The Outline of Biblical Usage / Online Bible has deliberately changed some of the definitions : "Online Bible also altered Thayer's definitions concerning the Holy Spirit and the divinity of Christ since Thayer was a Unitarian." (my emphasis) https://www.bluelett.../BLBStrongs.cfm
(Source: BlueLetterBible – same info on CrossWalk)
John Gill's commentary offers:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
That is, if a man shall make a good, sincere, and hearty confession to God, before the church and people of God, and before the world, that Christ is his Lord and Saviour, whom he desires to serve, and to be saved by; and this as arising from a comfortable experience of the grace of God in his soul, and from a true faith in Christ in his heart, wherefore it follows,
and shall believe in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved;
for this article of Christ's resurrection includes the several other articles of faith: it supposes his death, and that supposes his life, and the obedience of it; and his life implies his being here on earth, and that his coming down from heaven to do the will of his Father; and this is the rather mentioned, which is here ascribed to God the Father, though not to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, because that Christ is risen again for our justification, with which true faith is principally concerned; for such a faith is intended, not which lies in a mere assent to the truth of this, or any other article of the Christian religion; but which is concerned with Christ for righteousness, life, and glory; and with such a faith salvation is certainly and inseparably connected.
(http://www.biblestud...omans-10-9.html )
Even the sometimes funky Message gives this: Say the welcoming word to God - "Jesus is my Master" - embracing, body and soul, God's work of doing in us what he did in raising Jesus from the dead.
Wycliffe gives this: "That if thou acknowledge in thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believest in thine heart, that God raised him from death [that God raised him from dead], thou shalt be safe."
Not one translation offers "Jesus is God" – you can view this one verse very easily in many online Bibles .
(Edited to improve consistency of appearance, because copy&paste gives too many peculiar styles)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Regarding the Lord = God contention, some Trinitarians rely on the fact that when the NT quotes the OT, Yahweh/Jehovah is usually translated into Greek as kurios (lord)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
There certainly are some radical trinis out there.
I went to a local evening Bible school (to try to get a different non-Way view of things). There were a variety of teachers from different churchy backgrounds – it was interesting considering their points of view, some of which I would run by other churchmen whose views I had come to really respect.
One of these teachers had the idea that Jesus was walking about in the OT and specifically referred to Dan3:25, where Jesus himself is in the furnace with Daniel and his buddies. Hmm.
Give that one to your pastor, Tom. He’ll like it. Others think it hilarious.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Geiger
Actually, he thinks the same.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Geiger
I truly appreciate all the replies and I mean no disrespect to anyone of the trinitarian doctrine.
Since leaving TWI, I have been questioning and examining everything I learned.
When the verse in question came up, and then the followup of moving a comma, it really shocked me. THought I knew what Romans 10:9-10 said. Actually had looked up the definitions Twinky provided, but was sure I had missed something becaue a sincere pastor couldn't be wrong
The replies by Twinky confirmed that I actually do know how to read and use the reference books I still own :B)
Yes, that may be where this gentlemen went off the rails. God is Lord as is Jesus, but he missed that God is Lord over Jesus.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
And that questioning leads us all to different places
One thing that I have seen (your mileage may vary) is that no matter what ones position on Jesus is/isn't God; Trinitarian/Unitarian, you have to explain away or ignore verses that contradict each other. I doubt I'll have time to fully document that, but that's where questioning & examining have led me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
It's good to have another look, and to think for yourself, Tom.
I have met some awesome trinis and see they get prayers answered. They sincerely love God and you can see God at work in and through them.
I have met some awesome NON trinis (though far fewer non-Ts) and see they also get prayers answered. They sincerely love God and you can see God at work in and through them, too.
Conclusion: God and Jesus Christ have patience to put up with puny confused humans. They know we get things wrong. They aren't concerned so much about the details, as the heart to serve.
It's important for us all (including that atheist Raf) ( :) ) to know what we believe, and why. Enjoy people with differing viewpoints. Don't start a war over it. Search diligently, open-mindedly, and use your (God-given) critical thinking. Life is more interesting without Kool-Aid.
Or (alternative conclusion, that Raf might prefer) - neither God nor Jesus Christ exists. :evilshades:/>
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
That's two mentions. One more and he shows up. Like Beetlejuice.
Kidding aside, since we are in doctrinal, and there is a separate subforum for discussing issues from a perspective of doubt, it's assumed that we are talking about whether the Bible teaches a Trinity, and that's the only relevant question. Arguing against the existence of God or the lordship of Jesus Christ would be off-topic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Ya mean, if I say Raf Raf RAF, you suddenly appear in ghostly striped attire and wreak havoc (more than there usually is here?)?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
It's showtime...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
That's why he will only do one show a day, he just won't do it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
You guys just made my day!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.