"Everything has a place and is in it's place", referring to organization.
Something I was surprised by was that a lot of Wayisms are not Wayisms. They're phrases spoken in rural Western Ohio by folks not associated with TWI. They may have sounded unique 1000 miles away.
"Everything has a place and is in it's place", referring to organization.
Something I was surprised by was that a lot of Wayisms are not Wayisms. They're phrases spoken in rural Western Ohio by folks not associated with TWI. They may have sounded unique 1000 miles away.
I find it interesting how cultural artifacts propagate. (that's not a Wierwilleism, but a reflection on Bolshevik's post).
I was wondering if anyone could think of things we were taught in TWI that actually count as wisdom even now, regardless of theological agreement or disagreement.
I can think of one off the top of my head:
"Sincerity is no guarantee for truth."
I think that is one of the most profound statements I have ever encountered.
Any others?
Looks like a trick question, to draw vpw apologists out of the closet... lol.
(But that sure is a lot of wasted years if nothing more than that can be found or remembered.)
Besides, what was (or is) learned doesn't always equate to what's taught. Most "lessons" that are seen or heard can be thought of as either coming from man, or from God. So, a lot of things might depend on which source an individual perspective views them as being from.
I was wondering if anyone could think of things we were taught in TWI that actually count as wisdom even now, regardless of theological agreement or disagreement.
I can think of one off the top of my head:
"Sincerity is no guarantee for truth."
I think that is one of the most profound statements I have ever encountered.
Any others?
I guess. To me this one is loaded. It says, "Don't trust the counterpoints to my teaching you are going to hear."
LCM was always trying to remix these. The Way Class said something like "The only things sincerity is a garauntee for is... sincerity!" Good one, Craiggers.
Lots of the things that were said weren't unique to Weirwille or anyone associated with TWI. They're what some might call "horse sense" (I think that's what VPW called it) - others might say, good common sense, or old wives' wisdom, or some such. Just cos VPW said something doesn't mean he "invented" the proverb.
Just like the book of Proverbs is good common sense and no doubt a collection of sayings and ways of thinking that were common enough at the time - relevant then AND now.
I don't have a one liner, but due to the tendency within TWI to question mainstream Christianity, I started habitually questioning everything. Eventually that questioning outlook led me to question Martindale, which led me to question Wierwille...
The post isn't about TWI's dirty secrets, past or present, and the context of it refers to "biblical research."
My apologies if the context of it's meaning wasn't clear enough to be seen.
Thus, it isn't saying (or meaning) that having "the truth" is necessary to help people.
(But thank you for pointing this out.)
What it means, in essence, is:
IF you think you have (arrived at) or hold "the truth" (aka, "the one and only true interpretation") of scripture, but have lost the perspective on what genuinely helps people, THEN you no longer have the truth.
I trust this will make more sense, in a much less noticeably "offensive" way, to you.
Hello TLC. On this thread you posted the following as a wierwilleism that "still holds up today", the following:
"If you lose the perspective of what genuinely helps people, you no longer have the truth."
Then, shortly thereafter, on this same thread, you posted the following: "What it means, in essence, is:IF you think you have (arrived at) or hold "the truth" (aka, "the one and only true interpretation") of scripture, but have lost the perspective on what genuinely helps people, THEN you no longer have the truth."<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 13px;">
It's nice to see that over the years, twit refugees have devolved from quoting vic's private interpretations of the Bible as if they were actuality credible and that they emanated from him, to now quoting the alcoholic Nazi serial sexual predator and rapist himself, and offering their private interpretation of vic's private interpretation of the Bible and his ape-like mimicry and blatant plagiarism of EVERYTHING he ever taught. Somehow, by the pathological contortion of reason and logic, this regurgitated mish mash of baloney is somehow equated with "moving da woid" and "genuinely help[ing] people'. Please TLC, can you name me one thing that twit as a "minus-tray" ever did to genuinely help people in the various communities around this country in which there were WOWS, or twigs or corpse? You know, like doing the things Christ did, and living the way Christ taught us we can and should? You know, like things Jesus taught us to DO. You know, like feed the starving, shelter the destitute, clothe the naked, pray for fellow disciples, give voice to the silenced, share strength with the weak, uplift the downtrodden, defend the defenseless, take care of your children and your elderly, pray for the sick and dying, touch the untouchable, and love the unloveable. "Thou shalt love The Lord thy God with all thy heart, thy soul, thy mind and thy strength, and Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Twit defined "genuinely helping people" as researching da woid so you can invent more classes which cost more money to take, then make up teachings and revelations to "prove" it all, start fellowships/twigs and "programs" so we can collect our 15% of everybody's income and run more classes ad nauseum. And the circle of twit-life "goes round and round and round in the circle game" (Joni Mitchell). That's what Jesus Christ meant when he sent the 70 out 2 by 2. Go out there, get a part-time job and coerce (witness) to everyone you can, and we'll keep the classes and the horns of plenty coming from Jerusalem until the Lord returns. How does THAT "genuinely help people" more than doing it the way Jesus Christ taught us?? Ephesians IS NOT "the apex of all revelation to the Christian Church". Jesus Christ is the only Apex of all revelation period, imo. Where in da woid does it say, "Paul of Tarsus was the greatest Apostle/mog of the first century"? Where in the Bible does it say that the only things in the Bible directed specifically and particularly to the Christian Church are contained in the Pauline Epistles? Where are the AC definitions of the "manifestations"? Since none of that is in the Bible, where did it come from? Are we called Christians or Paulians? Who's the author and finisher of faith? Paul?
my contention is that twit as a minus-tray did nothing close to what Jesus taught us the Christian Church could and should do to prove their identity by producing fruit of the spirit, not producing more classes and inventing more programs. They genuinely helped themselves to peoples' money, spouses and daughters. It was basically "a counterfeit" to give anything to anyone else except them. Especially all those seed-boy run denominations, and every other major religion on the planet. How many food banks could they have stocked with all the $$ they spent just on Motorcoaches and airplanes? How many WOWS who had no money for rent, fuel, or food could have been helped by not buying and building all those "root locales" and buildings everywhere and amassing all that property and real estate? How much $$ was skimmed out of all that ABS cash and Bookstore receipts? How many people were promised the minus-tray would take of them for life and then got dumped as soon as they needed medical or psychiatric help? How many homeless folks were genuinely helped with a hot meal, hot shower, and a good coat? How many Harleys, Lincolns, german shorthairs, trustee fully decked out hunting and fishing trips, coprse chalets and auditoriums does it take to genuinely help people? And, what genuine help did twit provide in tangible, meaningful, real ways to the rest of the country and the world? Since twit never had TRUTH, WHEN and HOW could and did they lose it?
IF you think you have (arrived at) or hold "the truth" (aka, "the one and only true interpretation") of scripture, but have lost the perspective on what genuinely helps people, THEN you no longer have the truth.
I trust this will make more sense, in a much less noticeably "offensive" way, to you.
I think many of the people who post here have realized that it's not humanly possible to reach any absolute truth. That's part of the how and why what Wierwille taught is so obviously faulty.
In other words, neither I, nor at least some of the others, are not so arrogant as to believe I/we have "arrived at or hold the one and only true interpretation" of any truth.
If you lose the perspective of what genuinely helps people, you no longer have the truth.
...
What it means, in essence, is:
IF you think you have (arrived at) or hold "the truth" (aka, "the one and only true interpretation") of scripture, but have lost the perspective on what genuinely helps people, THEN you no longer have the truth.
What if you never had the perspective of what genuinely helps people? Then you never had "the truth" to start with!
What if you had that perspective, but allowed it to slip away?
What is "genuine help!"
If what you "help" people with helps them into despair, poverty, sexual abuse; breaks up marriages instead of strengthening them; beats children instead of looking after them tenderly, as a nursing mother; destroys family relationships of all kinds (not allowed to family weddings - though allowed to funerals), can't spend time alone with your own family (have to be two by two); causes people to commit suicide and engage in risky behavior with inadequate supports? And so on.
What if the help erodes moral and mental boundaries, causes the standards that are generally accepted by the population to be attacked at their root? Like respect for other people's family lives, property, and personal privacy?
For sure - help people to overcome obstacles in their lives, deal with inappropriate behavior etc. For sure, teach them that God wants them free and living in the abundance of his love -but don't then ensure that their only freedom is to parrot Bible verses without understanding the very context of those verses. Don't help people to become abusers, rapists and bullies. Don't help them to become incompetent morons who have lost the ability to think for themselves. Don't help them into such low self-esteem. Woe to those that call bondage "freedom" and captivity "abundance."
Is "help" one of those Way-words that has acquired a meaning completely opposite to what the normal populace understands?
I have absolutely no disagreement with you on the institutional failings of the minus tree but I have to say although the majority of the theology, examples I experienced were something that I want little to do with --some simple statements that i heard can still ring true at times -at least to me.
Even if the ministry failed to live by the aphorisms it promoted some (certainly not all--make no mistake about that) of them were still pretty good ideas. If they can be divorced from being associated with 'the institution' of TWI , I think we'd find that many of them are fairly universal ideas that never originated in TWI in the first place but may have been a place where some of us first heard it.
Even if the organization did not, there were people that took some of these general sayings to heart and incorporated them in such a way as to be genuinely beneficial to them or others on some level or another.
Im not a TWI apologist, but having spent a portion of my life there, thoughts, ideas, sayings, and phrases rise in my memory. A lot of them are .... of course, but some of them can still be worth considering--not because they were from TWI but because they are good general ideas .
Regardless of where it came from, what 'they' did with it, or whether they were stolen rewrites --some of the individual concepts werent all bad..none of us would have ever stayed if there wasnt an occasional something that grabbed our attention.
. The big problem (for me at least) was swallowing the whole thing without much real discernment if any.
iI know its like mining through manure at times, or looking for a kernal of wheat amongst the chaff but i have to admit that something that is worth remembering occasionally arises for me.
My involvement was over a decade, in any ten year period of my life ive heard something worth remembering no natter how bad the overall picture..
It was an odd period of time, maybe its stretching it but at this point Ill take what i can from that time so i dont have to write it off as a total loss.
Whether they did it ir didnt do it- I still think loving your neighbor (or whatever the exact quote was which i cant see right now) is a pretty good idea. If thats what i get to pull out of the wreckage--ill take it
Not sure if this is what you're looking for (and it may also fall under the category of situational irony or something if you think of it in reference to TWI….but anyway here goes ….) often thrown about in teachings by VP and other TWI leaders: The closer the counterfeit is to the genuine the more valuable it is to the adversary.
In the world of real money, superior quality counterfeit money can easily deceive the casual eye in an exchange of valuable goods - all to the benefit of the counterfeiter. In the world of moving product – some are fooled in buying a cheap knock off thinking it will last as long or work as well as the genuine brand; the buyer may think they're saving a lot of money but the manufacturer is making a lot of money for as cheap as their crap cost to make.
In reference to TWI - the closer the "way tree" and products (classes, books, programs, etc.) mimic genuine Christianity the more valuable they are to "customer retention". Some TWI folks have even been seriously deluded to think TWI is the body of Christ! Think I'm kidding?! I remember a phrase by GeerHead in reference to the mass exodus of corps in the aftermath of the passing of the patriarch epistle – his comment about those who left was something like the fat is being trimmed from the body of Christ.
Well, I guess there's another wayism that may hold up (the bank) – if you want a healthy cult you've got to trim the fat. After all you know what they say about staying healthy "diet and plenty of exorcise." Exorcise those evil spirits that hold your "ministry" back! Come out thou foul and fact-filled spirit of thinking. I command that entire herd of demons that's playing tricks with your five senses to go to the Abyss of Abeyance in the Armpits of VP.
Some TWI folks have even been seriously deluded to think TWI is the body of Christ! Think I'm kidding?! I remember a phrase by GeerHead in reference to the mass exodus of corps in the aftermath of the passing of the patriarch epistle – his comment about those who left was something like the fat is being trimmed from the body of Christ[/b
Well, that's the first I've hear of such nonsense. While I don't remember the exact phrase that was used, as I recall it (presuming it was the same incident), the thought from Geer was more along the lines of the bones being picked clean (which was in no way viewed as either being good or healthy for the body of Christ.)
I was wondering if anyone could think of things we were taught in TWI that actually count as wisdom even now, regardless of theological agreement or disagreement.
I can think of one off the top of my head:
"Sincerity is no guarantee for truth."
I think that is one of the most profound statements I have ever encountered.
Any others?
"A good business deal profits both parties." I think VPW said this in the PFAL class(?).
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waysider
A soft answer turns away wrath.....Proverbs 15:1
(one of the retemories)
It doesn't always work but it's usually a good starting point.
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Bolshevik
"Everything has a place and is in it's place", referring to organization.
Something I was surprised by was that a lot of Wayisms are not Wayisms. They're phrases spoken in rural Western Ohio by folks not associated with TWI. They may have sounded unique 1000 miles away.
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Rocky
I find it interesting how cultural artifacts propagate. (that's not a Wierwilleism, but a reflection on Bolshevik's post).
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TLC
Looks like a trick question, to draw vpw apologists out of the closet... lol.
(But that sure is a lot of wasted years if nothing more than that can be found or remembered.)
Besides, what was (or is) learned doesn't always equate to what's taught. Most "lessons" that are seen or heard can be thought of as either coming from man, or from God. So, a lot of things might depend on which source an individual perspective views them as being from.
(edited for grammar)
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shortfuse
I guess. To me this one is loaded. It says, "Don't trust the counterpoints to my teaching you are going to hear."
LCM was always trying to remix these. The Way Class said something like "The only things sincerity is a garauntee for is... sincerity!" Good one, Craiggers.
I'll have to think on your question.
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Raf
TLC, no one has a problem drawing Wierwille apologists out. There is no need to resort to tricks. The only real challenge is getting them to shut up.
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shortfuse
Ouch.
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Twinky
Lots of the things that were said weren't unique to Weirwille or anyone associated with TWI. They're what some might call "horse sense" (I think that's what VPW called it) - others might say, good common sense, or old wives' wisdom, or some such. Just cos VPW said something doesn't mean he "invented" the proverb.
Just like the book of Proverbs is good common sense and no doubt a collection of sayings and ways of thinking that were common enough at the time - relevant then AND now.
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Oakspear
I don't have a one liner, but due to the tendency within TWI to question mainstream Christianity, I started habitually questioning everything. Eventually that questioning outlook led me to question Martindale, which led me to question Wierwille...
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TLC
Given that some of you here appear to have or know the truth, here's one (perhaps much less commonly known or circulated) to hash around:
(paraphrased from one of the "biblical research" teachings.)
If you lose the perspective of what genuinely helps people, you no longer have the truth.
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waysider
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TLC
The post isn't about TWI's dirty secrets, past or present, and the context of it refers to "biblical research."
My apologies if the context of it's meaning wasn't clear enough to be seen.
Thus, it isn't saying (or meaning) that having "the truth" is necessary to help people.
(But thank you for pointing this out.)
What it means, in essence, is:
IF you think you have (arrived at) or hold "the truth" (aka, "the one and only true interpretation") of scripture, but have lost the perspective on what genuinely helps people, THEN you no longer have the truth.
I trust this will make more sense, in a much less noticeably "offensive" way, to you.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hello TLC. On this thread you posted the following as a wierwilleism that "still holds up today", the following:
"If you lose the perspective of what genuinely helps people, you no longer have the truth."
Then, shortly thereafter, on this same thread, you posted the following: "What it means, in essence, is: IF you think you have (arrived at) or hold "the truth" (aka, "the one and only true interpretation") of scripture, but have lost the perspective on what genuinely helps people, THEN you no longer have the truth."<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-size: 13px;">
It's nice to see that over the years, twit refugees have devolved from quoting vic's private interpretations of the Bible as if they were actuality credible and that they emanated from him, to now quoting the alcoholic Nazi serial sexual predator and rapist himself, and offering their private interpretation of vic's private interpretation of the Bible and his ape-like mimicry and blatant plagiarism of EVERYTHING he ever taught. Somehow, by the pathological contortion of reason and logic, this regurgitated mish mash of baloney is somehow equated with "moving da woid" and "genuinely help[ing] people'. Please TLC, can you name me one thing that twit as a "minus-tray" ever did to genuinely help people in the various communities around this country in which there were WOWS, or twigs or corpse? You know, like doing the things Christ did, and living the way Christ taught us we can and should? You know, like things Jesus taught us to DO. You know, like feed the starving, shelter the destitute, clothe the naked, pray for fellow disciples, give voice to the silenced, share strength with the weak, uplift the downtrodden, defend the defenseless, take care of your children and your elderly, pray for the sick and dying, touch the untouchable, and love the unloveable. "Thou shalt love The Lord thy God with all thy heart, thy soul, thy mind and thy strength, and Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Twit defined "genuinely helping people" as researching da woid so you can invent more classes which cost more money to take, then make up teachings and revelations to "prove" it all, start fellowships/twigs and "programs" so we can collect our 15% of everybody's income and run more classes ad nauseum. And the circle of twit-life "goes round and round and round in the circle game" (Joni Mitchell). That's what Jesus Christ meant when he sent the 70 out 2 by 2. Go out there, get a part-time job and coerce (witness) to everyone you can, and we'll keep the classes and the horns of plenty coming from Jerusalem until the Lord returns. How does THAT "genuinely help people" more than doing it the way Jesus Christ taught us?? Ephesians IS NOT "the apex of all revelation to the Christian Church". Jesus Christ is the only Apex of all revelation period, imo. Where in da woid does it say, "Paul of Tarsus was the greatest Apostle/mog of the first century"? Where in the Bible does it say that the only things in the Bible directed specifically and particularly to the Christian Church are contained in the Pauline Epistles? Where are the AC definitions of the "manifestations"? Since none of that is in the Bible, where did it come from? Are we called Christians or Paulians? Who's the author and finisher of faith? Paul?
my contention is that twit as a minus-tray did nothing close to what Jesus taught us the Christian Church could and should do to prove their identity by producing fruit of the spirit, not producing more classes and inventing more programs. They genuinely helped themselves to peoples' money, spouses and daughters. It was basically "a counterfeit" to give anything to anyone else except them. Especially all those seed-boy run denominations, and every other major religion on the planet. How many food banks could they have stocked with all the $$ they spent just on Motorcoaches and airplanes? How many WOWS who had no money for rent, fuel, or food could have been helped by not buying and building all those "root locales" and buildings everywhere and amassing all that property and real estate? How much $$ was skimmed out of all that ABS cash and Bookstore receipts? How many people were promised the minus-tray would take of them for life and then got dumped as soon as they needed medical or psychiatric help? How many homeless folks were genuinely helped with a hot meal, hot shower, and a good coat? How many Harleys, Lincolns, german shorthairs, trustee fully decked out hunting and fishing trips, coprse chalets and auditoriums does it take to genuinely help people? And, what genuine help did twit provide in tangible, meaningful, real ways to the rest of the country and the world? Since twit never had TRUTH, WHEN and HOW could and did they lose it?
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Rocky
I think many of the people who post here have realized that it's not humanly possible to reach any absolute truth. That's part of the how and why what Wierwille taught is so obviously faulty.
In other words, neither I, nor at least some of the others, are not so arrogant as to believe I/we have "arrived at or hold the one and only true interpretation" of any truth.
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Twinky
What if you never had the perspective of what genuinely helps people? Then you never had "the truth" to start with!
What if you had that perspective, but allowed it to slip away?
What is "genuine help!"
If what you "help" people with helps them into despair, poverty, sexual abuse; breaks up marriages instead of strengthening them; beats children instead of looking after them tenderly, as a nursing mother; destroys family relationships of all kinds (not allowed to family weddings - though allowed to funerals), can't spend time alone with your own family (have to be two by two); causes people to commit suicide and engage in risky behavior with inadequate supports? And so on.
What if the help erodes moral and mental boundaries, causes the standards that are generally accepted by the population to be attacked at their root? Like respect for other people's family lives, property, and personal privacy?
For sure - help people to overcome obstacles in their lives, deal with inappropriate behavior etc. For sure, teach them that God wants them free and living in the abundance of his love -but don't then ensure that their only freedom is to parrot Bible verses without understanding the very context of those verses. Don't help people to become abusers, rapists and bullies. Don't help them to become incompetent morons who have lost the ability to think for themselves. Don't help them into such low self-esteem. Woe to those that call bondage "freedom" and captivity "abundance."
Is "help" one of those Way-words that has acquired a meaning completely opposite to what the normal populace understands?
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mstar1
DWHB-
I have absolutely no disagreement with you on the institutional failings of the minus tree but I have to say although the majority of the theology, examples I experienced were something that I want little to do with --some simple statements that i heard can still ring true at times -at least to me.
Even if the ministry failed to live by the aphorisms it promoted some (certainly not all--make no mistake about that) of them were still pretty good ideas. If they can be divorced from being associated with 'the institution' of TWI , I think we'd find that many of them are fairly universal ideas that never originated in TWI in the first place but may have been a place where some of us first heard it.
Even if the organization did not, there were people that took some of these general sayings to heart and incorporated them in such a way as to be genuinely beneficial to them or others on some level or another.
Im not a TWI apologist, but having spent a portion of my life there, thoughts, ideas, sayings, and phrases rise in my memory. A lot of them are .... of course, but some of them can still be worth considering--not because they were from TWI but because they are good general ideas .
Regardless of where it came from, what 'they' did with it, or whether they were stolen rewrites --some of the individual concepts werent all bad..none of us would have ever stayed if there wasnt an occasional something that grabbed our attention.
. The big problem (for me at least) was swallowing the whole thing without much real discernment if any.
iI know its like mining through manure at times, or looking for a kernal of wheat amongst the chaff but i have to admit that something that is worth remembering occasionally arises for me.
My involvement was over a decade, in any ten year period of my life ive heard something worth remembering no natter how bad the overall picture..
It was an odd period of time, maybe its stretching it but at this point Ill take what i can from that time so i dont have to write it off as a total loss.
Whether they did it ir didnt do it- I still think loving your neighbor (or whatever the exact quote was which i cant see right now) is a pretty good idea. If thats what i get to pull out of the wreckage--ill take it
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DontWorryBeHappy
Articulate and insightful post mstar1 and Twinky! Thank you both.
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T-Bone
Not sure if this is what you're looking for (and it may also fall under the category of situational irony or something if you think of it in reference to TWI….but anyway here goes ….) often thrown about in teachings by VP and other TWI leaders: The closer the counterfeit is to the genuine the more valuable it is to the adversary.
In the world of real money, superior quality counterfeit money can easily deceive the casual eye in an exchange of valuable goods - all to the benefit of the counterfeiter. In the world of moving product – some are fooled in buying a cheap knock off thinking it will last as long or work as well as the genuine brand; the buyer may think they're saving a lot of money but the manufacturer is making a lot of money for as cheap as their crap cost to make.
In reference to TWI - the closer the "way tree" and products (classes, books, programs, etc.) mimic genuine Christianity the more valuable they are to "customer retention". Some TWI folks have even been seriously deluded to think TWI is the body of Christ! Think I'm kidding?! I remember a phrase by GeerHead in reference to the mass exodus of corps in the aftermath of the passing of the patriarch epistle – his comment about those who left was something like the fat is being trimmed from the body of Christ.
Well, I guess there's another wayism that may hold up (the bank) – if you want a healthy cult you've got to trim the fat. After all you know what they say about staying healthy "diet and plenty of exorcise." Exorcise those evil spirits that hold your "ministry" back! Come out thou foul and fact-filled spirit of thinking. I command that entire herd of demons that's playing tricks with your five senses to go to the Abyss of Abeyance in the Armpits of VP.
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TLC
Well, that's the first I've hear of such nonsense. While I don't remember the exact phrase that was used, as I recall it (presuming it was the same incident), the thought from Geer was more along the lines of the bones being picked clean (which was in no way viewed as either being good or healthy for the body of Christ.)
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Grace Valerie Claire
"A good business deal profits both parties." I think VPW said this in the PFAL class(?).
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