This sort of thing typically belongs in the doctrinal forum as it does not directly relate to the workings of The Way. (The Way already assumes the answer.) That being said, I noticed the timer said it is over 2 hours long. That's probably a bit longer than I would personally care to invest in a video. Thanks for taking the time to post it, though.
1. When the Bible says Jesus rose from the dead, is it a literal claim or a metaphorical one?
2. Regardless of the Bible's claim, is the resurrection of Jesus a historical fact? That is, did it actually happen, literally?
The first approach belongs in doctrinal. The second belongs in Questioning Faith.
The selection of videos to illustrate the question seems to indicate, to me, that the second question is the intended question. Accordingly, this thread will be moved.
I haven't looked at the videos here, but I've seen similar videos in the past.
William Lane Craig is a frustrating debater, not because he's so good, but because his arguments contain so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions that it takes much longer than the time alloted to deconstruct his nonsense and refute it.
The empty tomb, for example, is not evidence. It is a claim. The book of Acts is not evidence. It is a claim. The martyrdom of the saints is not evidence. It is a claim. But Craig does such an effective job of fallacy building that he appears to be making sense when he actually is not.
We have a tendency to approach Acts as an accurate account of things that actually happened. But even when you do something as simple as compare Acts' testimony of Paul's life with Paul's own testimony of the same events in his life, you will see a conflict between story and history. Somebody's fibbing.
Thousands of converts to Christianity in one day? Probably not. Not saying it's impossible, but that would be very much like all of us showing up at the Rock of Ages in 1977 and, after hearing one speech from one zealot, converting to Islam. Not bloody likely, no matter how many neat tricks the zealot performed.
I find the Jesus-Myth theory entertaining, and it makes some rock solid points. But ultimately, I think it fails to answer more questions than the alternative (minimal historicity, which holds that there was a historical figure in there, but his biography grew in the telling).
If he rose from the dead than he is around somewhere. Can't prove that he's not somewhere.
If he rose from the dead, entropy was reversed. Perhaps a computer someday could calculate that anomaly occurring 2000 years ago. It wouldn't prove he rose from the dead. But that something or someone rose from the dead 2000 years ago, barring alternate explanations, might . . . well . . . start more arguments.
Year 2027, I did not watch your post video, I don't feel the need. I have not adhered to the concept of there needing to be proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ outside the Bible and spiritual experience. There's nothing to prove by historical data, we don't believe based on the findings or nonfindings of historical/archeological data - maybe some do but on what then does one believe? The Bible is pretty clear, you either beleive it or not, regarless of how one divides the resurrection records. I have my favorite verses, mostly from the Pauline epistles and John's gospel but we here already know those. With all due respect Year 2027, I would not expect alot of dissertation on this topic based on a video but rather, as noted, take it to the doctrinal forum - though, I see it also as perfect for "questioning faith". I just think the folks on GSC don't want to haggel over this topic, as crucial as it is to everlasting life or whatever term we desire to apply to the concept. Sorry if my 2 cents did not offer squat (I really miss that cents key on the keyboard, I think it was shift 8).
Accepting the entirety of the Bible as the revealed word and will of gawd is a matter totally grounded in the willfull choice to believe it is such, i.e. "Faith". I absolutely do not believe that at all. What these "biblical researchers" worship as The Word is a simple collection of ancient Hebrew writings, selected Hebrew national history, the creation story according to the Hebrews, some metaphorical and allegorical poetry/praise/prayer writings and meditations, war histories, religious conflicts between Israel and whomever, "spiritual" opinions and predictions relative to Hebrew teaching and religious practice, records of the religious and sociopolitical struggles of the Hebrew people. I do not accept the premise that all the folks who wrote the "originals" were writing only "godbreathed" stuff. I believe that sometimes they did indeed wrote spiritual truth, rather passages offering insight into a deeper part of human life. but NOT every single word and sentence was "given by inspiration of God" IMO. So, all twits and offshoot twits immediately write off ANYTHING I say. There are scores of perspectives, writings, and "tapes" of everybody's theology about everything. The overriding fact is that, the decision to accept or reject any "spiritual" pursuit or belief is completely individual and personal IMO. Though I have chosen Christ and that line of spiritual thinking to be the best for me, I do not believe that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY to god or spiritually fruitful living. IMO there are many "ways" of equal worth and good fruit. Different terminology, different names, but the identical fruit of the spirit against which "there is no law". That is my number one criterion. I will know them by their fruit.
The overriding fact is that, the decision to accept or reject any "spiritual" pursuit or belief is completely individual and personal IMO. Though I have chosen Christ and that line of spiritual thinking to be the best for me, I do not believe that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY to god or spiritually fruitful living.
So, given that this touches on doctrinal, do you view the resurrection as something that literally occurred, or only as something metaphorical? Or do you see it as something else?
Or, if this is a matter of questioning faith, do you believe the resurrection was a real, historical event?
Sorry for taking so long getting back to you TLC.I don't travel down here very often so i have overlooked this thread.
As i said, my "spirituality", i.e., what i have chosen as a vehicle to express my belief in a "spiritual realm", and the added beneficial effects of pursuing the quiet, peaceful side of human life, is my understanding of the "Jesus Story" as told in what is now referred to as The Bible. I spent hundreds of hours in old and new testament study, and taught several classes to the corpse and staff at all the root locales based on those hours. since leaving twit, i have examined many other religious and spiritual beliefs and practices. My personal choice of how i think i can best express my spirituality is to follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. That is MY choice. It works for me. I prefer it over Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Judaism, Sikhism, and many other spiritual beliefs and practices. At the same time i do not believe, nor do i expect anyone else to believe that my choice is the ONLY correct or righteous "Way'. I explained my personal criteria above in another post.
So, with that out of the way, my response to your questions. i personally believe that Jesus Christ was literally crucified and was literally raised or resurrected from among the dead in fulfillment of numerous sections of scripture from what is called The Hebrew Old Testament. I accept many sections of the Hebrew Old Testament as being prophetic or "of god", or "god breathed". I do not believe that every word is perfect in "the original" nor that any "originals" of any parts of The Bible even exist. My understanding of the types and foreshadows of Christ in the Hebrew Bible leads to my choice of accepting Christ, as does my knowledge of quantum physics and what exactly is available from the God Who created quantum and Jesus. No limits there. Others find the same spiritual fulfillment from their choice of beliefs. No matter what, I'll know them by their fruit. Beliefs and religions may differ, and religious practices and rituals are quite diverse, but, the fruit of the spirit will always identify which god is at work. Pretty simple to me. Hope that answers your questions.
Pretty much. But, you did manage to stir up another question (or curiosity) with this:
My understanding of the types and foreshadows of Christ in the Hebrew Bible leads to my choice of accepting Christ, as does my knowledge of quantum physics and what exactly is available from the God Who created quantum and Jesus. No limits there.
I get the first part relating to the types and foreshadows of Christ.
But, not so much, when it comes to how or what your knowledge of quantum physics (aka, "weird science" ...lol) did for you.
I suppose I could speculate (as in, "no limits - makes anything possible" type thinking), but perhaps you wouldn't mind expounding a little on how or what you see as the importance or significance of it to yourself.
the topic is finally shut for me- after doing healing ministry for years and seeing people- healed instantly that's quantitative proof for me- thx 4 reading-
i barely get quantum physics and it is a theory bUT the way the discoveries (like of the atom) show how much stuff is going on we can not see- is coll to me- and builds my faith in God Jesus resurrection so did Bullinger's books like witness of the stars and number in scrip thx 4 reading.
the topic is finally shut for me- after doing healing ministry for years and seeing people- healed instantly that's quantitative proof for me- thx 4 reading-
Btw, by definition, Kata, witnessing instantaneous healings would be qualitative, not quantitative proof, if anything. Quantitative evidence has to do with numbers... which might be related to what Raf said.
It's neither qualitative evidence nor quantitative. It's a non sequitur. It's like saying "If there's no such thing as Bigfoot, how do you explain bears?" Um. Bears don't prove Bigfoot.
But at least bears exist.
We have no evidence outside this empty claim that these instant healings happened. If that is good enough for Kata, that's very nice. But I see no reason to take it seriously.
Your claims of instant healings right before your eyes would be a tad bit more credible if you were to, say, empty a hospital. Or even a room.
I LIKE DUH BIBLE AND ACC 2 IT- JESUS HEALED A LOT OF PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY---ONE ON ONE- AND THERE WERE ALSO MASS HEALING EVENTS-
Nonetheless, even taking your empty claim at face value, it doesn't prove the resurrection of Jesus.
I SAID --(PARAPHRASED--)
4 ME IT DOES-
AND FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE (ACC 2 THE BIBLE) MANY BELIEVED HAVING SEEN THE RISEN CHRIST (MEN ON ROAD TO EMAUS YADA YADA..) AND MANY BELIEVED HAVING SEEN THE 'WITNESS OF THE RESURRECTION- ALSO CALLED THE TOKEN PROOF WHICH ARE THE MANIFESTATIONS OF HS- AND ONE OF THOSE IS HEALING/ JEEEEZUS!! GIVE ME A BREAK MAN! DO U BELIEVE IN "DON'T DO TO OTHERS WHAT U DO NOT WANT THEM TO DO 2 U???" ( A MORAL CREDO ACCEPTED BY MOST RELIGIONS WORLD WIDE???) IF SO---////JUST THINK--- WHAT IF U JOINED THIS FORUM AND SOMEONE CRAWLED UP YOUR PROVERBIAL PUTUTIE??
THE OTHER OPTION IS MORAL ANARCHY AND LIVING IN KUBRICK MOVIE---
Btw, by definition, Kata, witnessing instantaneous healings would be qualitative, not quantitative proof, if anything. Quantitative evidence has to do with numbers... which might be related to what Raf said.
ROCKY-- QUANTITATIVE PROOF IS FOUND IN BULLINGERS WORK ---BUT THX ANYWAY--
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waysider
If you are asking this question in earnest, you might want to consider exploring the works of Joseph Campbell.... The Power of Myth/The Hero's Journey/ etc. etc. etc. The Hero With A Thous
Raf
Tell me there's another way to read this (and by all means, go to the original post. I'm truly not doing the "evidence" part justice). Why would God deliberately make it harder for smart people t
Raf
Ok, TLC. Look, if you want to make this thread about your stamp of approval on our questions and answers, you go ahead and do that. I am deeply sorry that you do not have the patience or con
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waysider
Hello, Roy
This sort of thing typically belongs in the doctrinal forum as it does not directly relate to the workings of The Way. (The Way already assumes the answer.) That being said, I noticed the timer said it is over 2 hours long. That's probably a bit longer than I would personally care to invest in a video. Thanks for taking the time to post it, though.
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year2027
Did Jesus Rise from the Dead? Christian vs Muslim (William Lane Craig vs Shabir Ally)
It a good debate
Love Roy
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year2027
Atheist vs. Christian One of the best debates Christopher Hitchens v Peter Hitchens
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Raf
Two ways to approach this topic.
1. When the Bible says Jesus rose from the dead, is it a literal claim or a metaphorical one?
2. Regardless of the Bible's claim, is the resurrection of Jesus a historical fact? That is, did it actually happen, literally?
The first approach belongs in doctrinal. The second belongs in Questioning Faith.
The selection of videos to illustrate the question seems to indicate, to me, that the second question is the intended question. Accordingly, this thread will be moved.
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Raf
I haven't looked at the videos here, but I've seen similar videos in the past.
William Lane Craig is a frustrating debater, not because he's so good, but because his arguments contain so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions that it takes much longer than the time alloted to deconstruct his nonsense and refute it.
The empty tomb, for example, is not evidence. It is a claim. The book of Acts is not evidence. It is a claim. The martyrdom of the saints is not evidence. It is a claim. But Craig does such an effective job of fallacy building that he appears to be making sense when he actually is not.
We have a tendency to approach Acts as an accurate account of things that actually happened. But even when you do something as simple as compare Acts' testimony of Paul's life with Paul's own testimony of the same events in his life, you will see a conflict between story and history. Somebody's fibbing.
Thousands of converts to Christianity in one day? Probably not. Not saying it's impossible, but that would be very much like all of us showing up at the Rock of Ages in 1977 and, after hearing one speech from one zealot, converting to Islam. Not bloody likely, no matter how many neat tricks the zealot performed.
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Bolshevik
I also don't plan to invest in watching a long video. I'm sure it's interesting.
I have no idea of a real Jesus Christ existed ever, let alone rise from dead. So by that line of thought, no, the question is nonsense.
Did a symbolic/metaphorical Jesus rise from the symbolic/metaphorical dead? (or something of that nature) Sure. Why not?
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Raf
I find the Jesus-Myth theory entertaining, and it makes some rock solid points. But ultimately, I think it fails to answer more questions than the alternative (minimal historicity, which holds that there was a historical figure in there, but his biography grew in the telling).
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Bolshevik
If he rose from the dead than he is around somewhere. Can't prove that he's not somewhere.
If he rose from the dead, entropy was reversed. Perhaps a computer someday could calculate that anomaly occurring 2000 years ago. It wouldn't prove he rose from the dead. But that something or someone rose from the dead 2000 years ago, barring alternate explanations, might . . . well . . . start more arguments.
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MRAP
Year 2027, I did not watch your post video, I don't feel the need. I have not adhered to the concept of there needing to be proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ outside the Bible and spiritual experience. There's nothing to prove by historical data, we don't believe based on the findings or nonfindings of historical/archeological data - maybe some do but on what then does one believe? The Bible is pretty clear, you either beleive it or not, regarless of how one divides the resurrection records. I have my favorite verses, mostly from the Pauline epistles and John's gospel but we here already know those. With all due respect Year 2027, I would not expect alot of dissertation on this topic based on a video but rather, as noted, take it to the doctrinal forum - though, I see it also as perfect for "questioning faith". I just think the folks on GSC don't want to haggel over this topic, as crucial as it is to everlasting life or whatever term we desire to apply to the concept. Sorry if my 2 cents did not offer squat (I really miss that cents key on the keyboard, I think it was shift 8).
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DontWorryBeHappy
Accepting the entirety of the Bible as the revealed word and will of gawd is a matter totally grounded in the willfull choice to believe it is such, i.e. "Faith". I absolutely do not believe that at all. What these "biblical researchers" worship as The Word is a simple collection of ancient Hebrew writings, selected Hebrew national history, the creation story according to the Hebrews, some metaphorical and allegorical poetry/praise/prayer writings and meditations, war histories, religious conflicts between Israel and whomever, "spiritual" opinions and predictions relative to Hebrew teaching and religious practice, records of the religious and sociopolitical struggles of the Hebrew people. I do not accept the premise that all the folks who wrote the "originals" were writing only "godbreathed" stuff. I believe that sometimes they did indeed wrote spiritual truth, rather passages offering insight into a deeper part of human life. but NOT every single word and sentence was "given by inspiration of God" IMO. So, all twits and offshoot twits immediately write off ANYTHING I say. There are scores of perspectives, writings, and "tapes" of everybody's theology about everything. The overriding fact is that, the decision to accept or reject any "spiritual" pursuit or belief is completely individual and personal IMO. Though I have chosen Christ and that line of spiritual thinking to be the best for me, I do not believe that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY to god or spiritually fruitful living. IMO there are many "ways" of equal worth and good fruit. Different terminology, different names, but the identical fruit of the spirit against which "there is no law". That is my number one criterion. I will know them by their fruit.
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TLC
So, given that this touches on doctrinal, do you view the resurrection as something that literally occurred, or only as something metaphorical? Or do you see it as something else?
Or, if this is a matter of questioning faith, do you believe the resurrection was a real, historical event?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Sorry for taking so long getting back to you TLC.I don't travel down here very often so i have overlooked this thread.
As i said, my "spirituality", i.e., what i have chosen as a vehicle to express my belief in a "spiritual realm", and the added beneficial effects of pursuing the quiet, peaceful side of human life, is my understanding of the "Jesus Story" as told in what is now referred to as The Bible. I spent hundreds of hours in old and new testament study, and taught several classes to the corpse and staff at all the root locales based on those hours. since leaving twit, i have examined many other religious and spiritual beliefs and practices. My personal choice of how i think i can best express my spirituality is to follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. That is MY choice. It works for me. I prefer it over Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Judaism, Sikhism, and many other spiritual beliefs and practices. At the same time i do not believe, nor do i expect anyone else to believe that my choice is the ONLY correct or righteous "Way'. I explained my personal criteria above in another post.
So, with that out of the way, my response to your questions. i personally believe that Jesus Christ was literally crucified and was literally raised or resurrected from among the dead in fulfillment of numerous sections of scripture from what is called The Hebrew Old Testament. I accept many sections of the Hebrew Old Testament as being prophetic or "of god", or "god breathed". I do not believe that every word is perfect in "the original" nor that any "originals" of any parts of The Bible even exist. My understanding of the types and foreshadows of Christ in the Hebrew Bible leads to my choice of accepting Christ, as does my knowledge of quantum physics and what exactly is available from the God Who created quantum and Jesus. No limits there. Others find the same spiritual fulfillment from their choice of beliefs. No matter what, I'll know them by their fruit. Beliefs and religions may differ, and religious practices and rituals are quite diverse, but, the fruit of the spirit will always identify which god is at work. Pretty simple to me. Hope that answers your questions.
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TLC
Pretty much. But, you did manage to stir up another question (or curiosity) with this:
I get the first part relating to the types and foreshadows of Christ.
But, not so much, when it comes to how or what your knowledge of quantum physics (aka, "weird science" ...lol) did for you.
I suppose I could speculate (as in, "no limits - makes anything possible" type thinking), but perhaps you wouldn't mind expounding a little on how or what you see as the importance or significance of it to yourself.
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katabillups
the topic is finally shut for me- after doing healing ministry for years and seeing people- healed instantly that's quantitative proof for me- thx 4 reading-
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katabillups
i barely get quantum physics and it is a theory bUT the way the discoveries (like of the atom) show how much stuff is going on we can not see- is coll to me- and builds my faith in God Jesus resurrection so did Bullinger's books like witness of the stars and number in scrip thx 4 reading.
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katabillups
replying again forgot to hit get posts thing--thx--ps painting by Rembrandt--
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Raf
Your claims of instant healings right before your eyes would be a tad bit more credible if you were to, say, empty a hospital. Or even a room.
Nonetheless, even taking your empty claim at face value, it doesn't prove the resurrection of Jesus.
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Rocky
Btw, by definition, Kata, witnessing instantaneous healings would be qualitative, not quantitative proof, if anything. Quantitative evidence has to do with numbers... which might be related to what Raf said.
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Raf
It's neither qualitative evidence nor quantitative. It's a non sequitur. It's like saying "If there's no such thing as Bigfoot, how do you explain bears?" Um. Bears don't prove Bigfoot.
But at least bears exist.
We have no evidence outside this empty claim that these instant healings happened. If that is good enough for Kata, that's very nice. But I see no reason to take it seriously.
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katabillups
AND FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE (ACC 2 THE BIBLE) MANY BELIEVED HAVING SEEN THE RISEN CHRIST (MEN ON ROAD TO EMAUS YADA YADA..) AND MANY BELIEVED HAVING SEEN THE 'WITNESS OF THE RESURRECTION- ALSO CALLED THE TOKEN PROOF WHICH ARE THE MANIFESTATIONS OF HS- AND ONE OF THOSE IS HEALING/ JEEEEZUS!! GIVE ME A BREAK MAN! DO U BELIEVE IN "DON'T DO TO OTHERS WHAT U DO NOT WANT THEM TO DO 2 U???" ( A MORAL CREDO ACCEPTED BY MOST RELIGIONS WORLD WIDE???) IF SO---////JUST THINK--- WHAT IF U JOINED THIS FORUM AND SOMEONE CRAWLED UP YOUR PROVERBIAL PUTUTIE??
THE OTHER OPTION IS MORAL ANARCHY AND LIVING IN KUBRICK MOVIE---
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katabillups
ROCKY-- QUANTITATIVE PROOF IS FOUND IN BULLINGERS WORK ---BUT THX ANYWAY--
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waysider
Girl: "You can't lie on the internet."
Guy: "How do you know?"
Girl: "I read it on the internet."
In other words, you can't use the Bible as proof of itself.
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katabillups
can anyone on this forum read? u r bunch of--rude-- snobbish fops-/ i came here to see if anyone was grieving my friend steve budlongs life- /
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waysider
How was I rude or snobbish?
Anyway, what makes you so sure Bullinger's works are accurate? (His approach to dispensations, for example)
As to grieving for those who have passed, we do that on a different thread.
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