all I remember was LCM making such statements from the pulpit. Then for a period we were to remove Christian from our vocabulary, then it was ok again.
This was during the period of getting caught up to the present truth. Things like twig, limb were inappropriate but branch was ok. New terms were to be used, such as household fellowship. Try around winter of 95, but not sure.
In PFAL it was pointed out the term Christian was coined by unbelievers from the believers running around saying its Christ in you.
He also said that we shouldn't use the word "Christian" because it originated as a derogatory term in the 1st C. Whether or not this is true, I don't know - always sounded made up to me.
Shortly after he said that, I think he realized his book was called "The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church" and sorta cooled off on that really stupid point. Guess it was cheaper than re-writing all of his and VP's works that had the word "Christian" in them!
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
quote:In PFAL it was pointed out the term Christian was coined by unbelievers from the believers running around saying its Christ in you.
And the proper response to that is, "BS!" Students of Pythagoras were Pythagorians. His best known theorem is "the Pythagorian theorem." Has nothing to do with "Pythagoras in you."
Sorry if I came off sounding mad, Grizz. I wasn't. I was just practicing truth in labeling.
Suffixes like "ian", "ean", "ist", "an", etc. deal with origin of an idea, a person or philosopy people follow, or a group identity. "Christian" simply means of or from Christ, as in a follower of Christ or the doctrine of Christ. "American" means of or from America.
As for Pythagoras, he was a Greek philosopher and mathematician. I goofed though. The correct spelling is "Pythagorean," not "Pythagorian."
I don't know much about Martindale, but from what I've read, he took several of Wierwille's more idiotic, unsupported, and possibly even unintentional statements, and tried to make some great truth of them.
Other people did that too, though usually not to the same extent. Ol' Mike is not all that different from some Wayfers I recall. A Wierwille brain-fart was as good as God-breathed to them.
As I recall, VPW said people were first called Christians at Antioch in Syria. Before that time they were called followers of "The Way" because Jesus claimed He was: The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
The term "Christian" was coined by the unbelievers first, and it was intended as a derogatory term because followers of "the way" were claiming that Christ was in them.
Now if the term Christian even existed before this time I couldn't say. I don't know where VPW got his research on this, but then again, I don't know what bearing this even has on Christianity now. Most certainly, if someone calls you a Christian now they aren't saying it intending it as a derogatory remark toward you - at least not in many of the Christian countries of the world today.
Craig et al, got the derogatory connotation from Bullinger. Check his companion bible. It's in the comments on one of the verses containing the word Christian.
As for the word being derived from "christ in you," I've seen nothing indicating that outside of VPW's mouth and doesn't seem to have much basis especially since it is using English to make the connection.
From what I can tell, chistian means "follower of the messiah." Messiah means "the anointed one" and refers to a king (recall David calling Saul God's anointed one). The derogatory implication may come from the fact that the "unbelievers" saw that he was dead, so they were followers of a dead king.
Such is what I know and have opinionated.
I think you can check any 90's tape with Craig teaching on it and find him bashing "christianity." He always had to compare TWI with everyone else, show how TWI was right and everyone else wrong, usually with a condescending raised voice.
VPW's reasoning for eliminating the word "Christian" from TWI's vocabulary was probably NOT based on research. I think this was yet another subtle strategy to divide Way believers from other individuals or organizations who were born again.
Language is really powerful, and VPW knew that. He used the same strategy in naming the group The Way Ministry. That simple word, "The" implied it was the only one. There are many examples of this strategy in TWI history.
"Christian" is an all-inclusive term, for anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. To use "Christian" in reference to TWI would be to say that VPW's people were part of a larger group. But VPW preferred to separate his people from other Christians.
Like so many other "principles" which he told us were based in deep and profound research, this one was simply another method of owning and controlling human beings. He was a genius, but he was a creep too. -Pat
[This message was edited by Schwaigers on January 05, 2004 at 9:47.]
I need however to find the specific teaching tape(s) that this was said by Wierwille preferably or other board members that stated that TWI is not a christian organization, and or that they despise christianity.
Any help would be appreciated.
[This message was edited by IMF777 on January 07, 2004 at 12:02.]
It was probably the hottest for the year or so before the video for fellowship coordinators came out. It was LCM, RFR and JR running the meeting.
LCM went on about how "technically" if someone were to ask us we "could" say that we are a church, because, for tax purposes we are. And then he went into some long explanation about terminology and having to say that because of the law, etc. This is, I think, where he also addressed the "household fellowship" versus "twig" stuff, too.
We used to take notes anally and almost verbatim, I'll see if I can find something more substantial to go on.
quote:I need however to find the specific teaching tape(s) that this was said by Wierwille preferably or other board members that stated that TWI is not a christian organization, and or that they despise christianity.
I recall what was said at one point was that TWI was not a church, but when they had that tax problem with the state of Ohio, they eventually won in court and proved that TWI was in fact a church. Other than that, I can't imagine why VP would say that TWI wasn't Christian, or TWI despises Christianity. I highly doubt you'll find anything from VP like that around.
Actually now that I think of it, I was a "tape-aholic", and still have several hundred sunday services on tape.
I never listen to them anymore, and they date from early 1975 to around 1985 or so. It tires me to even think of going thru all of them, but if anyone wants them, give me an address, I'll box them up, and ship them your way.
Instead of just giving them away, why not sell them on ebay? There are folks on ebay who would be happy buying them and you'll make some money. However, if you don't want to do that and you won't be persuaded, I'll gladly take them off your hands. LOL...
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I would like to know about that too !!!
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Grizzy
all I remember was LCM making such statements from the pulpit. Then for a period we were to remove Christian from our vocabulary, then it was ok again.
This was during the period of getting caught up to the present truth. Things like twig, limb were inappropriate but branch was ok. New terms were to be used, such as household fellowship. Try around winter of 95, but not sure.
In PFAL it was pointed out the term Christian was coined by unbelievers from the believers running around saying its Christ in you.
God Bless America; SIZE>
Grizz SIZE>
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Hope R.
He also said that we shouldn't use the word "Christian" because it originated as a derogatory term in the 1st C. Whether or not this is true, I don't know - always sounded made up to me.
Shortly after he said that, I think he realized his book was called "The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church" and sorta cooled off on that really stupid point. Guess it was cheaper than re-writing all of his and VP's works that had the word "Christian" in them!
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
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LG
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Steve!
That saying in piffle was truly moronic, "Christian, Christ in".
And he said at another time that followers of Freud were "Freud-in-yists" - I think he meant Freudians. And followers of Aristotle were Aristotelians.
He contradicted himself with these statements. Moronic.
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Grizzy
damn longgone,
somebody .... in your ceral this morning?
perhaps I should have been clearer, I don't remember VPW saying anything more than that and where I heard it.
But I do think this is the foundation for LCM's brief don't use Christian period.
And who the hell are you talikng about??????
God Bless America; SIZE>
Grizz SIZE>
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LG
Sorry if I came off sounding mad, Grizz. I wasn't. I was just practicing truth in labeling.
Suffixes like "ian", "ean", "ist", "an", etc. deal with origin of an idea, a person or philosopy people follow, or a group identity. "Christian" simply means of or from Christ, as in a follower of Christ or the doctrine of Christ. "American" means of or from America.
As for Pythagoras, he was a Greek philosopher and mathematician. I goofed though. The correct spelling is "Pythagorean," not "Pythagorian."
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LG
I don't know much about Martindale, but from what I've read, he took several of Wierwille's more idiotic, unsupported, and possibly even unintentional statements, and tried to make some great truth of them.
Other people did that too, though usually not to the same extent. Ol' Mike is not all that different from some Wayfers I recall. A Wierwille brain-fart was as good as God-breathed to them.
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WordWolf
Well,
just off the top of my head,
vpw had a tendency to bash conventional Christians if he had enough time
in front of the microphone.
In know the Rock of Ages '79 set had at least one tape-
"the Battlefield-the Mind"
where he compared his teaching on free will-favourably of course-
to the amount of time they discuss it in
"any theological cemetary or seminary I've heard of."
Obviously, he seems to have been absent at seminary whenever they discussed
Calvinism and free will-this is a regular subject, BTW.
Last time I sat thru the "Living Victoriously" tapes, I had the impression
that each tape had at least one point where he took a potshot at
conventional Christianity. The book has either edited out or softened mant
of them.
Example: opening tape=opening chapter.
"The Roman Catholics would have us believe that the word "protestant" is a
negative word, that it means you're protesting against something.
That's a lie from the pit of Roman Catholicism..."
He then mentioned how the word "Protestant" has as its root "speaking
forth", which is confirmed by my dictionary.
The book gives the explanation without the derogatory comment.
I'm unsure if it was simply thought that the comment was more profitable
this way, or if it reveals a bias in the editor, meaning that they didn't
really register the insult.
Really, though....
Find any tape where either has time to ramble on for a while, then listen.
You'll probably find SOMETHING. vpw WAS fond of bashing other Christians.
In fact, that thing that Mike lauds to the sky, what Mike calls vpw's
"last" or "lost" teaching, basically says 2 things:
A) The best thing for Christians out there is pfal-all 3 levels.
B) Outside of twi, there's no real accuracy among Christians.
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TheInvisibleDan
"believers"...
that's what "Wayfers" called themselves most of the time. As I recall correctly, that was used in place of "Christian".
"believers"
O the inanity.
Danny
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lindyhopper
Is this a research paper about twi or for twi?
No clue on the tapes and stuff, sorry.
It don't mean a thing, all you gotta do is swing.
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What The Hay
As I recall, VPW said people were first called Christians at Antioch in Syria. Before that time they were called followers of "The Way" because Jesus claimed He was: The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
The term "Christian" was coined by the unbelievers first, and it was intended as a derogatory term because followers of "the way" were claiming that Christ was in them.
Now if the term Christian even existed before this time I couldn't say. I don't know where VPW got his research on this, but then again, I don't know what bearing this even has on Christianity now. Most certainly, if someone calls you a Christian now they aren't saying it intending it as a derogatory remark toward you - at least not in many of the Christian countries of the world today.
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No Way
gotta love the term "believer"
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TheEnd
Craig et al, got the derogatory connotation from Bullinger. Check his companion bible. It's in the comments on one of the verses containing the word Christian.
As for the word being derived from "christ in you," I've seen nothing indicating that outside of VPW's mouth and doesn't seem to have much basis especially since it is using English to make the connection.
From what I can tell, chistian means "follower of the messiah." Messiah means "the anointed one" and refers to a king (recall David calling Saul God's anointed one). The derogatory implication may come from the fact that the "unbelievers" saw that he was dead, so they were followers of a dead king.
Such is what I know and have opinionated.
I think you can check any 90's tape with Craig teaching on it and find him bashing "christianity." He always had to compare TWI with everyone else, show how TWI was right and everyone else wrong, usually with a condescending raised voice.
Hope this helps with your paper.
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TheEnd
oops
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Schwaigers
VPW's reasoning for eliminating the word "Christian" from TWI's vocabulary was probably NOT based on research. I think this was yet another subtle strategy to divide Way believers from other individuals or organizations who were born again.
Language is really powerful, and VPW knew that. He used the same strategy in naming the group The Way Ministry. That simple word, "The" implied it was the only one. There are many examples of this strategy in TWI history.
"Christian" is an all-inclusive term, for anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. To use "Christian" in reference to TWI would be to say that VPW's people were part of a larger group. But VPW preferred to separate his people from other Christians.
Like so many other "principles" which he told us were based in deep and profound research, this one was simply another method of owning and controlling human beings. He was a genius, but he was a creep too. -Pat
[This message was edited by Schwaigers on January 05, 2004 at 9:47.]
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IMF777
Thanks everyone for your thoughts so far.
I need however to find the specific teaching tape(s) that this was said by Wierwille preferably or other board members that stated that TWI is not a christian organization, and or that they despise christianity.
Any help would be appreciated.
[This message was edited by IMF777 on January 07, 2004 at 12:02.]
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simpleton
It was probably the hottest for the year or so before the video for fellowship coordinators came out. It was LCM, RFR and JR running the meeting.
LCM went on about how "technically" if someone were to ask us we "could" say that we are a church, because, for tax purposes we are. And then he went into some long explanation about terminology and having to say that because of the law, etc. This is, I think, where he also addressed the "household fellowship" versus "twig" stuff, too.
We used to take notes anally and almost verbatim, I'll see if I can find something more substantial to go on.
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def59
The phrase "the way" mentioned in Acts, was a very common term used by many religious sects and causes at the time.
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oldiesman
I recall what was said at one point was that TWI was not a church, but when they had that tax problem with the state of Ohio, they eventually won in court and proved that TWI was in fact a church. Other than that, I can't imagine why VP would say that TWI wasn't Christian, or TWI despises Christianity. I highly doubt you'll find anything from VP like that around.
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dmiller
oldiesman -- I agree. I never heard (from the pulpit) that twi was not a chrisian organisation.
I do remember referring to members as believers, but that I think, was used to distinguish US FROM THEM ie -- those who hadn't had the class.
But -- perhaps all this happened after I got out in 85 or so. I didn't keep up on twi for 15 or so years, and anything could have happened!!
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dmiller
Actually now that I think of it, I was a "tape-aholic", and still have several hundred sunday services on tape.
I never listen to them anymore, and they date from early 1975 to around 1985 or so. It tires me to even think of going thru all of them, but if anyone wants them, give me an address, I'll box them up, and ship them your way.
Happy Listening!!!!!
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oldiesman
Dmiller,
Instead of just giving them away, why not sell them on ebay? There are folks on ebay who would be happy buying them and you'll make some money. However, if you don't want to do that and you won't be persuaded, I'll gladly take them off your hands. LOL...
email me if you want at oldiesmanpics@aol.com
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dmiller
Hmmm e-bay. now there is a thought
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