Time and time again, people come here and try to minimize the gravity of Wierwille's plagiarism. "Oh, well, at least he got us to read the Bible", or "Yes, but I spoke in tongues.", etc. In a sense, his plagiarism was far worse than the average variety where a song or book or paper is plagiarized. Not only did he claim the work was his own, he claimed his work was the result of a special divine, connection. What he did was seriously wrong on multiple levels. And, he was aware that he was doing it. Adding to that, a good deal of what he promoted has been debunked as being inaccurate. Where is the value in that?
Not only is plagiarism fraud, but what does it reveal (once you realize it's in play in the situation you're considering) about a man who built a subculture around other people's research, teaching and "fellowship?"
"Lurking beneath the surface of people who use others to their own advantage is psychology’s “Dark Triad.” Defined as a set of traits that include the tendency to seek admiration and special treatment (otherwise known as narcissism), to be callous and insensitive (psychopathy) and to manipulate others (Machiavellianism), the Dark Triad is rapidly becoming a new focus of personality psychology."
We all (who followed Wierwille and those who arose in his wake) fell for one of the biggest and oldest confidence games.
For the last 15 years, people have speculated on the degree to which Wierwille was sincere or whether he knew from the start of his ministry that is was all BS.
This thread, and the very succinct opening post to it, boil down all of those discussions to the very essence.
"Lurking beneath the surface of people who use others to their own advantage is psychology's "Dark Triad." Defined as a set of traits that include the tendency to seek admiration and special treatment (otherwise known as narcissism), to be callous and insensitive (psychopathy) and to manipulate others (Machiavellianism), the Dark Triad is rapidly becoming a new focus of personality psychology."
Rocky, I heard the NPR interview with Konnikova and was struck by this "dark triad" observation she makes. I thought at the time how well Wierwille fit the description. I am also curious to read her thoughts about cults as she mentioned this in the interview - former cultists are among the most affected by having been conned.
One of the things people tend to do when they have been conned is minimize what was done, or hide it for shame. It seems important for recovery to call these things by their real names. Plagiarism is the only honest way to describe this. Who are we sheltering when we minimize this? If it's Wierwille, who cares? He's been dead for over twenty years. No, we minimize it to shelter ourselves from the pain of acknowledging the con. At least that is one reason. Again, he is long gone. Only the deception lingers. And that is only if we let it.
Rocky, I heard the NPR interview with Konnikova and was struck by this "dark triad" observation she makes. I thought at the time how well Wierwille fit the description. I am also curious to read her thoughts about cults as she mentioned this in the interview - former cultists are among the most affected by having been conned.
One of the things people tend to do when they have been conned is minimize what was done, or hide it for shame. It seems important for recovery to call these things by their real names. Plagiarism is the only honest way to describe this. Who are we sheltering when we minimize this? If it's Wierwille, who cares? He's been dead for over twenty years. No, we minimize it to shelter ourselves from the pain of acknowledging the con. At least that is one reason. Again, he is long gone. Only the deception lingers. And that is only if we let it.
You nailed it quite well.
Reading the book, it sheds tremendous light on how I bought into the con. Reflecting back on a Bolshevik thread, how to prevent cults... it seems one of the best things we can do is teach our children how to recognize cons and give them a clear sense of meaning in this life. Of course that's not to stifle curiosity and exploration. But perhaps if we are successful in giving a child confidence in an emotional framework, it can prevent some of the same mishaps we stumbled through.
For the record, in Feb 2015, I flew to Washington, DC (and boy were my arms tired) to observe oral arguments at the Supreme Court. I landed at Reagan Int'l Airport and waited 40 minutes for luggage. But I got conned into a cab ride that probably cost me twice as much to get to the hotel as I should have had to pay. The guy grabbed my bag and quickly headed to the parking garage, NOT to the cab stand. But it was too late, if I wanted to not lose my bag, I felt I had to follow.
The cab ride cost me $45, but should have cost $20. I got conned. In this case because I was a novice traveler to DC.
One of the things people tend to do when they have been conned is minimize what was done, or hide it for shame. It seems important for recovery to call these things by their real names. Plagiarism is the only honest way to describe this. Who are we sheltering when we minimize this? If it's Wierwille, who cares? He's been dead for over twenty years. No, we minimize it to shelter ourselves from the pain of acknowledging the con. At least that is one reason. Again, he is long gone. Only the deception lingers. And that is only if we let it.
IMO . . TWI called everything "FEAR". As soon as they feel that emotion they block it.
I've heard fear is similar to pain, in that it warns of danger. I would think that impulse to block fear is analogous to wanting to numb pain.
So now there's a discomfort for having discomfort, in the mind of a wayfer. Double whammy.
And BTW.
It's not a RESEARCH ministry. It's a RE-, SEARCH ministry. No idea is unique, there's nothing is new under the sun. VPW simply was guided by God to find that information in other people's works, and put it all in one convenient ministry. And everything is GOD's.
IMO . . TWI called everything "FEAR". As soon as they feel that emotion they block it.
I've heard fear is similar to pain, in that it warns of danger. I would think that impulse to block fear is analogous to wanting to numb pain.
So now there's a discomfort for having discomfort, in the mind of a wayfer. Double whammy.
And BTW.
It's not a RESEARCH ministry. It's a RE-, SEARCH ministry. No idea is unique, there's nothing is new under the sun. VPW simply was guided by God to find that information in other people's works, and put it all in one convenient ministry. And everything is GOD's.
Fear is a state induced by perceived danger or threat that occurs in certain types of organisms, which causes a change in metabolic and organ functions and ultimately a change in behavior, such as fleeing, hiding or freezing from perceived traumatic events. Fear in human beings may occur in response to a specific stimulus occurring in the present, or in anticipation or expectation of a future threat perceived as a risk to body or life. The fear response arises from the perception of danger leading to confrontation with or escape from/avoiding the threat (also known as the fight-or-flight response), which in extreme cases of fear (horror and terror) can be a freeze response or paralysis.
In humans and animals, fear is modulated by the process of cognition and learning. Thus fear is judged as rational or appropriate and irrational or inappropriate. An irrational fear is called a phobia.
But yes, one of the main themes of the FLAP class (besides establishing Wierwille as the only authority for all things spiritual) was to get people to block that warning system.
Btw, I realize what you mean when saying "everything is GOD'S." That's the rationalization for plagiarism. But really, everything was V-Pee's. He forbade anyone from having a name on any of the "research" publications... except his name, that is. It all belonged to him.
Yeah it's a real problem. It's fraud. It's lying. It's nothing to build your ministry on. Unless of course you are a fraud. In which case, carry on.
Plagiarism is stupid and lazy scholarship. In true scholarly endeavors, everyone knows that citing sources makes you look smarter and your work look better and more researched and solid even if it is not. Of course in religious circles who you cite can get you judged, labeled and pigeonholed. But that's the same in philosophy.
To cite nobody in literary works kind of makes it fiction.
The more I think about this the more I think that all signs point to VP being a very lazy man in the ways he researched things. For example, he would lie about having all 350+ pneuma hagion verses in his head by memory, then sitting down at a checked in motel room and writing RHST. When you compare, there is > 70% material similar or identical there as in JE Stiles book which was published earlier. So to me when you put it together it really looks like VP didn't need a motel room to focus on eliminating distractions, he needed it for masking his 18th century scribe work copying most of Stiles book without anyone being the wiser.
Plagiarism is lying and stealing and laziness all mixed into one.
And yes, the irony of basing a research ministry on his works should really not be lost by anyone.
Even sketchier foundations - the collaterals. I knew people in the ministry that had read those books so many times that they would try and counsel people solely from collaterals material.
Some collateral chapters were predecessors to VP's books. The impression I get is VP and the chapters like "4 Crucified", "The Day JC Died", and similar were part of the flim-flam operation. "If you can't trust the church on how many died with Jesus, how can you trust them on who he was and what he did for us?" This gradually undermined standard Christian teachings and trust in them. After that, rather than fully developing any of that he had the Research Department write 2 books for him, doing the work for him with no credit.
Other chapters were like a STS cleaned up and written down. And "The Law of Believing" stuff? One of VP's contemporary's was Norman Vincent Peale - who wrote "The Power of Positive Thinking", which is that kind of stuff except in a whole book not a 20 page chapter. I bet a good portion of even that chapter was mimic'd from Peale. Peale was too well known in the day to directly plagiarize. Much more well-known than VP ever was.
Many chapters were from transcribed STS teachings, and never any more effort put into them than the effort VP put in the week before the sermon. Yet they (collaterals) were sold as our spiritual foundations to Biblical research. Laziness, plagiarism.
Biblical Research now in TWI? It is completely non-existent. They even re-defined the word to mean not looking for anything new, which is actually completely 180 degrees opposite of the meaning of the word research. R&D in the world today means allocating resources to discover new things. It is not re-search just because you can cleverly break down the word into 2 parts and have a sing-song childlike parent-child phrase you can repeat to someone if what they are studying isn't something you've heard before.
All work done in TWI literary-wise now can be described by a Ralph Waldo Emerson phrase - "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". TWI's total focus is remaining consistent with previous teachings. And they will go over and over mag articles and teachings to ferret out any little nuance of new research (or personality) and remove it.
Research and plagiarism.
The Way can redefine black as white, and their brainwashed followers accept it without question. That's how you can identify them.
Christians are supposed to be identifiable by the badge of their love. TWIts are identified by their oxymoron little deluded statements - like "research means re-search" or "believing equals receiving". You can tell they think they are so clever and right on as they lecture you in a parent-child voice about it. Their ego is them deluding themselves.
The more I think about this the more I think that all signs point to VP being a very lazy man in the ways he researched things. For example, he would lie about having all 350+ pneuma hagion verses in his head by memory, then sitting down at a checked in motel room and writing RHST. When you compare, there is > 70% material similar or identical there as in JE Stiles book which was published earlier. So to me when you put it together it really looks like VP didn't need a motel room to focus on eliminating distractions, he needed it for masking his 18th century scribe work copying most of Stiles book without anyone being the wiser.
Plagiarism is lying and stealing and laziness all mixed into one.
Yes - awesome - thanks. I hadn't seen that page by John Juedes yet - great detailed work breaking down VP's plagiarism of JE Stiles.
There's even more irony in this plagiarism. JE Stiles if you recall is the one who led VP into speaking in tongues after he faked it onstage at an Oral Roberts revival according to his account in "The Way Living in Love" by Elena Whiteside. What a way to repay your self-described spiritual mentor, no? I mean he could have adopted JE Stiles work and book as part of a coursework for a class, or even put it on the "Recommended Reading List" for leaders like he used to do. But that reference is nowhere to be found.
VP repayed his spiritual mentor who led him into SIT when others couldn't by stealing his work and publishing it as his own. The mark of a true narcissistic morally deficient sociopath.
It's not a RESEARCH ministry. It's a RE-, SEARCH ministry. No idea is unique, there's nothing is new under the sun. VPW simply was guided by God to find that information in other people's works, and put it all in one convenient ministry. And everything is GOD's.
Oh, my! What a loving, caring individual VPW must have been.
It's easy I think to see plagiarism as wrong in academia, which is what most of the google searches seem to come up with. An analogous concept might be patents and copyrights, which expire. Then everyone is free to use them. There's the idea of ownership which not all cultures share.
A wayfer could draw and argument there . . . we're in it for the information. Who cares the source?
I doubt most rank and file twig/HH fellowship goer hasn't heard the sources and accusation of plagiarism. Or if they're not aware they should have figured that out on their own.
A follower of TWI is NOT interested in TRUTH. Not interested in learning. Not interested accuracy. Not interested in WORK. Not interested in UNDERSTANDING. Not thorough or interested in details or the big picture.
Not knowing TWI's material is plagiarized means you're incompetent.
Not understanding why it's wrong means you're own words mean nothing.
Plagiarism is theft. Intellectual property theft. Theft of ideas. Theft of "work product," as you Americans might say.
A sculptor sculpts. Suppose the sculptor makes a beautiful marble statue.
An artist paints. Suppose the artist makes a painting, a watercolor of ... his horse, say.
Somebody without permission takes the statue or the watercolor away - it's easy to see that as
theft.
An inventor invents. Devises new ways of doing things. New methods.
That's why he patents his ideas, his device, his formula. Because then if anyone uses his ideas without permission - it's theft.
An author writes. Suppose the author writes a novel. Or even the factual history of widget manufacture.
The writing then becomes copyright. And the right to copy remains with the author, who can grant or withhold permission to make copies or use the material.
Somebody without permission takes the words away. It's still
theft.
And we fell for it. We fell for a load of lies. Peddled by a bunch of thieves. All that came before Jesus were thieves and robbers - as are some of those who've come after him.
And we, all Wayfers, are in receipt of stolen property :blink:/>
Plagiarize the way books whole sale. Just word for word. Instead of crediting VPW or whoever, credit the original authors. I wonder if twi would try to take any legal action, and if so, if it would hold up.
I know, a great big, who cares? but the irony appeals to me.
It only matters when assessing vpw's credibility and integrity as a researcher and representative of God. He failed to meet the standards of scholarship while holding himself up as a scholar (implied by his use of the honorific "Doctor"). And he was dishonest, a quality that conflicts with the notion that he was a man of God.
As to the quality of the content, it matters not one whit.
Plagiarize the way books whole sale. Just word for word. Instead of crediting VPW or whoever, credit the original authors. I wonder if twi would try to take any legal action, and if so, if it would hold up.
I know, a great big, who cares? but the irony appeals to me"
Plagiarize the way books whole sale. Just word for word. Instead of crediting VPW or whoever, credit the original authors. I wonder if twi would try to take any legal action, and if so, if it would hold up.
I know, a great big, who cares? but the irony appeals to me"
Time and time again, people come here and try to minimize the gravity of Wierwille's plagiarism. "Oh, well, at least he got us to read the Bible", or "Yes, but I spoke in tongues.", etc. In a sense, his plagiarism was far worse than the average variety where a song or book or paper is plagiarized. Not only did he claim the work was his own, he claimed his work was the result of a special divine, connection. What he did was seriously wrong on multiple levels. And, he was aware that he was doing it. Adding to that, a good deal of what he promoted has been debunked as being inaccurate. Where is the value in that?
I left TWI many years ago. Curiously, it wasn't until after quite some time after I left that I finally realized why none of them (the leadership) was really getting what I had tried so hard to give them---which I believe God showed me himself! (And please believe me folks...my intent here is not to brag.) If they had truly been able to see where I had taken the concept of Biblical administrations (or "dispensations", if you prefer...as each term does have its own merits...) they would SURELY have STOLEN IT FROM ME, and published it themselves...under their own name(s)!
It is written that "The laborer is worthy of his hire", which is to say that (in God's eyes) the one who works should be credited accordingly.
I knew many people involved in "Way Productions", who foolishly (and most ignorantly) turned over their great poems and music to TWI, and regretted it later on. I too was on that path and would have done so as well...had not God so graciously intervened upon my behalf!
As I was saying, I tried my level best togive my work to them --- having researched the matter independently of them for over two decades! While yet with them, I had often wondered just why "they didn't seem to be getting it": [Perhaps (I thought) I wasn't explaining it well enough for them to see it. Or perhaps (as I also considered) they were "just too busy to really listen" as I was attempting to show them what I believed that God himself had revealed to me --- basically "in a moment of time", one fine morning in June of 1988. (But let's just skip all of that for the present time --- thank you!)
Eventually, trying to reason it out over a long period of time (with one or another Limb or Region Coordinator), my explanations were becoming even finer and finer. My reasoning had truly become assound speech, which cannot be condemned, as that verse goes. So the only thing left for me to consider by then was: "How in hell aren't they seeing any of this by now?!!!"
The truth is, that those I tried to "teach this to" were not stupid people! Early on, I had quickly learned to limit my discussion on this matter to the "Corps Household" (and then eventually, only to "Ordained Clergy") --- so as not to cause any dissension among the "other followers" (you know...the mere peons...ha ha), should it turn out that I was mistaken about "my findings", after all was said and done. This perplexed me to no end as the years of disappointment and frustration moved along!
I wish to spare you all the details of this episode in my life, except to say that (although they would never admit "they didn't care about my research", that was really the truth! (They never gave a rat's a**about what God might have shown me personally as I studied the Scriptures for myself....LOL!!!) So...when I finally had all of their shenanigans I could stand...I left them --- and discovered the wonderful truth of it all at some later point in time...which is this:
Thankfully, somehow or otherGod had blinded their minds to the entire matter, lest they would see its merit---AND STEAL IT FROM ME---and make me mad as a hornet later on, after it was all too late! [bTW...my favorite verse along this line is 1Co 3:19b --- "He [God] taketh the wise in their own craftiness." ] LOL!!!
But thank God that this "wonderful personal insight" is NOT HIDDEN AWAY in some obscure little bookstore...courtesy of The American Christian Press...but rather, is now published under my own name --- and available worldwide to whomever wants to "glean" from it!
I once tried rationalizing for myself just why Dr. Wierwille may have intentionally plagiarized so much. Didn't he realize he would eventually be found out? (But, of course he did!) My guess...trying to be kind to him...is that he weighed the value of having hordes of believers admiring him (and his supposed "spiritual connection to God") as more weighty than being considered as "a thief of others' works". (But --- any fool should know that the end does not justify the means!) Surely, he did develop an international following, etc --- but in my book, NOTHING CAN TRULY DIMINISH the sheer depravity involved with the pawning off other people's work as one's own! (As Waysider so bluntly put it: "What he did was seriously wrong on multiple levels."
Thank you all for listening! If I have "stirred anyone's appetite" along the way (considering just what it was that caused me to leave TWI after serving "faithfully" for over 30 years), then I cordially invite you to inquire further. (It's TRULY AWESOME --- if I do say so myself....LOL)
Peace!
Spec
PS: Has anyone besides myself seen how Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible acts as an OUTLINE to Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living? Very interesting indeed! (And all you need do is to simply compare the Table of Contents of each of those two books --- side by side! And which book was written first? Why....Bullinger's, but of course! :)
Thank you all for listening! If I have "stirred anyone's appetite" along the way (considering just what it was that caused me to leave TWI after serving "faithfully" for over 30 years), then I cordially invite you to inquire further. (It's TRULY AWESOME --- if I do say so myself....LOL)
Okay, I'll bite. So what is your basic premise, or where might you have discussed it here?
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shortfuse
Came across this in a college class I'm taking now and it reminded me of my own past inclination to minimize Wierwille's plagiarism. http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism Yeah
waysider
Yes, I can see that now. I really must speak in tongues more. Where, oh where, was my believing?
Steve Lortz
At the School of Theology, all of our writing has to conform to the standards of the eighth edition of Kate Turabian's A Manual for Writers of Research Papers, Theses and Dissertations. The manual is
waysider
Thank you, shortfuse.
Time and time again, people come here and try to minimize the gravity of Wierwille's plagiarism. "Oh, well, at least he got us to read the Bible", or "Yes, but I spoke in tongues.", etc. In a sense, his plagiarism was far worse than the average variety where a song or book or paper is plagiarized. Not only did he claim the work was his own, he claimed his work was the result of a special divine, connection. What he did was seriously wrong on multiple levels. And, he was aware that he was doing it. Adding to that, a good deal of what he promoted has been debunked as being inaccurate. Where is the value in that?
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Raf
Plagiarism is dishonesty.
That's all there is to it.
If you're ok with dishonesty, then plagiarism will not bother you.
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Rocky
Not only is plagiarism fraud, but what does it reveal (once you realize it's in play in the situation you're considering) about a man who built a subculture around other people's research, teaching and "fellowship?"
Do (or did) you know, from your history and experience, anyone who exhibited the "dark triad" of psychological traits?
"Lurking beneath the surface of people who use others to their own advantage is psychology’s “Dark Triad.” Defined as a set of traits that include the tendency to seek admiration and special treatment (otherwise known as narcissism), to be callous and insensitive (psychopathy) and to manipulate others (Machiavellianism), the Dark Triad is rapidly becoming a new focus of personality psychology."
We all (who followed Wierwille and those who arose in his wake) fell for one of the biggest and oldest confidence games.
For the last 15 years, people have speculated on the degree to which Wierwille was sincere or whether he knew from the start of his ministry that is was all BS.
This thread, and the very succinct opening post to it, boil down all of those discussions to the very essence.
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shortfuse
Rocky, I heard the NPR interview with Konnikova and was struck by this "dark triad" observation she makes. I thought at the time how well Wierwille fit the description. I am also curious to read her thoughts about cults as she mentioned this in the interview - former cultists are among the most affected by having been conned.
One of the things people tend to do when they have been conned is minimize what was done, or hide it for shame. It seems important for recovery to call these things by their real names. Plagiarism is the only honest way to describe this. Who are we sheltering when we minimize this? If it's Wierwille, who cares? He's been dead for over twenty years. No, we minimize it to shelter ourselves from the pain of acknowledging the con. At least that is one reason. Again, he is long gone. Only the deception lingers. And that is only if we let it.
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Rocky
You nailed it quite well.
Reading the book, it sheds tremendous light on how I bought into the con. Reflecting back on a Bolshevik thread, how to prevent cults... it seems one of the best things we can do is teach our children how to recognize cons and give them a clear sense of meaning in this life. Of course that's not to stifle curiosity and exploration. But perhaps if we are successful in giving a child confidence in an emotional framework, it can prevent some of the same mishaps we stumbled through.
For the record, in Feb 2015, I flew to Washington, DC (and boy were my arms tired) to observe oral arguments at the Supreme Court. I landed at Reagan Int'l Airport and waited 40 minutes for luggage. But I got conned into a cab ride that probably cost me twice as much to get to the hotel as I should have had to pay. The guy grabbed my bag and quickly headed to the parking garage, NOT to the cab stand. But it was too late, if I wanted to not lose my bag, I felt I had to follow.
The cab ride cost me $45, but should have cost $20. I got conned. In this case because I was a novice traveler to DC.
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Bolshevik
IMO . . TWI called everything "FEAR". As soon as they feel that emotion they block it.
I've heard fear is similar to pain, in that it warns of danger. I would think that impulse to block fear is analogous to wanting to numb pain.
So now there's a discomfort for having discomfort, in the mind of a wayfer. Double whammy.
And BTW.
It's not a RESEARCH ministry. It's a RE-, SEARCH ministry. No idea is unique, there's nothing is new under the sun. VPW simply was guided by God to find that information in other people's works, and put it all in one convenient ministry. And everything is GOD's.
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Rocky
Fear is...
Fear is a state induced by perceived danger or threat that occurs in certain types of organisms, which causes a change in metabolic and organ functions and ultimately a change in behavior, such as fleeing, hiding or freezing from perceived traumatic events. Fear in human beings may occur in response to a specific stimulus occurring in the present, or in anticipation or expectation of a future threat perceived as a risk to body or life. The fear response arises from the perception of danger leading to confrontation with or escape from/avoiding the threat (also known as the fight-or-flight response), which in extreme cases of fear (horror and terror) can be a freeze response or paralysis.
In humans and animals, fear is modulated by the process of cognition and learning. Thus fear is judged as rational or appropriate and irrational or inappropriate. An irrational fear is called a phobia.
But yes, one of the main themes of the FLAP class (besides establishing Wierwille as the only authority for all things spiritual) was to get people to block that warning system.
Btw, I realize what you mean when saying "everything is GOD'S." That's the rationalization for plagiarism. But really, everything was V-Pee's. He forbade anyone from having a name on any of the "research" publications... except his name, that is. It all belonged to him.
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chockfull
Plagiarism is stupid and lazy scholarship. In true scholarly endeavors, everyone knows that citing sources makes you look smarter and your work look better and more researched and solid even if it is not. Of course in religious circles who you cite can get you judged, labeled and pigeonholed. But that's the same in philosophy.
To cite nobody in literary works kind of makes it fiction.
The more I think about this the more I think that all signs point to VP being a very lazy man in the ways he researched things. For example, he would lie about having all 350+ pneuma hagion verses in his head by memory, then sitting down at a checked in motel room and writing RHST. When you compare, there is > 70% material similar or identical there as in JE Stiles book which was published earlier. So to me when you put it together it really looks like VP didn't need a motel room to focus on eliminating distractions, he needed it for masking his 18th century scribe work copying most of Stiles book without anyone being the wiser.
Plagiarism is lying and stealing and laziness all mixed into one.
And yes, the irony of basing a research ministry on his works should really not be lost by anyone.
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chockfull
Even sketchier foundations - the collaterals. I knew people in the ministry that had read those books so many times that they would try and counsel people solely from collaterals material.
Some collateral chapters were predecessors to VP's books. The impression I get is VP and the chapters like "4 Crucified", "The Day JC Died", and similar were part of the flim-flam operation. "If you can't trust the church on how many died with Jesus, how can you trust them on who he was and what he did for us?" This gradually undermined standard Christian teachings and trust in them. After that, rather than fully developing any of that he had the Research Department write 2 books for him, doing the work for him with no credit.
Other chapters were like a STS cleaned up and written down. And "The Law of Believing" stuff? One of VP's contemporary's was Norman Vincent Peale - who wrote "The Power of Positive Thinking", which is that kind of stuff except in a whole book not a 20 page chapter. I bet a good portion of even that chapter was mimic'd from Peale. Peale was too well known in the day to directly plagiarize. Much more well-known than VP ever was.
Many chapters were from transcribed STS teachings, and never any more effort put into them than the effort VP put in the week before the sermon. Yet they (collaterals) were sold as our spiritual foundations to Biblical research. Laziness, plagiarism.
Biblical Research now in TWI? It is completely non-existent. They even re-defined the word to mean not looking for anything new, which is actually completely 180 degrees opposite of the meaning of the word research. R&D in the world today means allocating resources to discover new things. It is not re-search just because you can cleverly break down the word into 2 parts and have a sing-song childlike parent-child phrase you can repeat to someone if what they are studying isn't something you've heard before.
All work done in TWI literary-wise now can be described by a Ralph Waldo Emerson phrase - "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". TWI's total focus is remaining consistent with previous teachings. And they will go over and over mag articles and teachings to ferret out any little nuance of new research (or personality) and remove it.
Research and plagiarism.
The Way can redefine black as white, and their brainwashed followers accept it without question. That's how you can identify them.
Christians are supposed to be identifiable by the badge of their love. TWIts are identified by their oxymoron little deluded statements - like "research means re-search" or "believing equals receiving". You can tell they think they are so clever and right on as they lecture you in a parent-child voice about it. Their ego is them deluding themselves.
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skyrider
You mean like this?....... Click -- Originality Challenge of RHST
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Bolshevik
Juedes' view is Trinitarian logic.
Your plagiarism argument is invalid.
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chockfull
Yes - awesome - thanks. I hadn't seen that page by John Juedes yet - great detailed work breaking down VP's plagiarism of JE Stiles.
There's even more irony in this plagiarism. JE Stiles if you recall is the one who led VP into speaking in tongues after he faked it onstage at an Oral Roberts revival according to his account in "The Way Living in Love" by Elena Whiteside. What a way to repay your self-described spiritual mentor, no? I mean he could have adopted JE Stiles work and book as part of a coursework for a class, or even put it on the "Recommended Reading List" for leaders like he used to do. But that reference is nowhere to be found.
VP repayed his spiritual mentor who led him into SIT when others couldn't by stealing his work and publishing it as his own. The mark of a true narcissistic morally deficient sociopath.
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waysider
Yes, I can see that now. I really must speak in tongues more. Where, oh where, was my believing?
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waysider
Oh, my! What a loving, caring individual VPW must have been.
(You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?)
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Bolshevik
Indeed. He built a ministry for those who want to know the Truth. Hebrews 11 style. Thousands and thousands of individual wayfers can't be WRONG?
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Bolshevik
It's easy I think to see plagiarism as wrong in academia, which is what most of the google searches seem to come up with. An analogous concept might be patents and copyrights, which expire. Then everyone is free to use them. There's the idea of ownership which not all cultures share.
A wayfer could draw and argument there . . . we're in it for the information. Who cares the source?
I thought this was a neat LINK.
Why is VPW's plagiarism important?
I doubt most rank and file twig/HH fellowship goer hasn't heard the sources and accusation of plagiarism. Or if they're not aware they should have figured that out on their own.
A follower of TWI is NOT interested in TRUTH. Not interested in learning. Not interested accuracy. Not interested in WORK. Not interested in UNDERSTANDING. Not thorough or interested in details or the big picture.
Not knowing TWI's material is plagiarized means you're incompetent.
Not understanding why it's wrong means you're own words mean nothing.
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Twinky
Plagiarism is theft. Intellectual property theft. Theft of ideas. Theft of "work product," as you Americans might say.
A sculptor sculpts. Suppose the sculptor makes a beautiful marble statue.
An artist paints. Suppose the artist makes a painting, a watercolor of ... his horse, say.
An inventor invents. Devises new ways of doing things. New methods.
That's why he patents his ideas, his device, his formula. Because then if anyone uses his ideas without permission - it's theft.
An author writes. Suppose the author writes a novel. Or even the factual history of widget manufacture.
The writing then becomes copyright. And the right to copy remains with the author, who can grant or withhold permission to make copies or use the material.
And we fell for it. We fell for a load of lies. Peddled by a bunch of thieves. All that came before Jesus were thieves and robbers - as are some of those who've come after him.
And we, all Wayfers, are in receipt of stolen property :blink:/>
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shortfuse
Ooh, book idea.
Plagiarize the way books whole sale. Just word for word. Instead of crediting VPW or whoever, credit the original authors. I wonder if twi would try to take any legal action, and if so, if it would hold up.
I know, a great big, who cares? but the irony appeals to me.
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Raf
It only matters when assessing vpw's credibility and integrity as a researcher and representative of God. He failed to meet the standards of scholarship while holding himself up as a scholar (implied by his use of the honorific "Doctor"). And he was dishonest, a quality that conflicts with the notion that he was a man of God.
As to the quality of the content, it matters not one whit.
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waysider
"Ooh, book idea.
Plagiarize the way books whole sale. Just word for word. Instead of crediting VPW or whoever, credit the original authors. I wonder if twi would try to take any legal action, and if so, if it would hold up.
I know, a great big, who cares? but the irony appeals to me"
..................................................................................
The Way books are protected by copyright. Go figure. So much for the "Oh, it's from God so it should belong to everyone." mantra.
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Bolshevik
Tax the Churches. Freedom from religion.
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waysider
You got my vote.
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spectrum49
I left TWI many years ago. Curiously, it wasn't until after quite some time after I left that I finally realized why none of them (the leadership) was really getting what I had tried so hard to give them---which I believe God showed me himself! (And please believe me folks...my intent here is not to brag.) If they had truly been able to see where I had taken the concept of Biblical administrations (or "dispensations", if you prefer...as each term does have its own merits...) they would SURELY have STOLEN IT FROM ME, and published it themselves...under their own name(s)!
It is written that "The laborer is worthy of his hire", which is to say that (in God's eyes) the one who works should be credited accordingly.
I knew many people involved in "Way Productions", who foolishly (and most ignorantly) turned over their great poems and music to TWI, and regretted it later on. I too was on that path and would have done so as well...had not God so graciously intervened upon my behalf!
As I was saying, I tried my level best to give my work to them --- having researched the matter independently of them for over two decades! While yet with them, I had often wondered just why "they didn't seem to be getting it": [Perhaps (I thought) I wasn't explaining it well enough for them to see it. Or perhaps (as I also considered) they were "just too busy to really listen" as I was attempting to show them what I believed that God himself had revealed to me --- basically "in a moment of time", one fine morning in June of 1988. (But let's just skip all of that for the present time --- thank you!)
Eventually, trying to reason it out over a long period of time (with one or another Limb or Region Coordinator), my explanations were becoming even finer and finer. My reasoning had truly become as sound speech, which cannot be condemned, as that verse goes. So the only thing left for me to consider by then was: "How in hell aren't they seeing any of this by now?!!!"
The truth is, that those I tried to "teach this to" were not stupid people! Early on, I had quickly learned to limit my discussion on this matter to the "Corps Household" (and then eventually, only to "Ordained Clergy") --- so as not to cause any dissension among the "other followers" (you know...the mere peons...ha ha), should it turn out that I was mistaken about "my findings", after all was said and done. This perplexed me to no end as the years of disappointment and frustration moved along!
I wish to spare you all the details of this episode in my life, except to say that (although they would never admit "they didn't care about my research", that was really the truth! (They never gave a rat's a** about what God might have shown me personally as I studied the Scriptures for myself....LOL!!!) So...when I finally had all of their shenanigans I could stand...I left them --- and discovered the wonderful truth of it all at some later point in time...which is this:
Thankfully, somehow or other God had blinded their minds to the entire matter, lest they would see its merit---AND STEAL IT FROM ME---and make me mad as a hornet later on, after it was all too late! [bTW...my favorite verse along this line is 1Co 3:19b --- "He [God] taketh the wise in their own craftiness." ] LOL!!!
But thank God that this "wonderful personal insight" is NOT HIDDEN AWAY in some obscure little bookstore...courtesy of The American Christian Press...but rather, is now published under my own name --- and available worldwide to whomever wants to "glean" from it!
I once tried rationalizing for myself just why Dr. Wierwille may have intentionally plagiarized so much. Didn't he realize he would eventually be found out? (But, of course he did!) My guess...trying to be kind to him...is that he weighed the value of having hordes of believers admiring him (and his supposed "spiritual connection to God") as more weighty than being considered as "a thief of others' works". (But --- any fool should know that the end does not justify the means!) Surely, he did develop an international following, etc --- but in my book, NOTHING CAN TRULY DIMINISH the sheer depravity involved with the pawning off other people's work as one's own! (As Waysider so bluntly put it: "What he did was seriously wrong on multiple levels."
Thank you all for listening! If I have "stirred anyone's appetite" along the way (considering just what it was that caused me to leave TWI after serving "faithfully" for over 30 years), then I cordially invite you to inquire further. (It's TRULY AWESOME --- if I do say so myself....LOL)
Peace!
Spec
PS: Has anyone besides myself seen how Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible acts as an OUTLINE to Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living? Very interesting indeed! (And all you need do is to simply compare the Table of Contents of each of those two books --- side by side! And which book was written first? Why....Bullinger's, but of course! :)
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TLC
Okay, I'll bite. So what is your basic premise, or where might you have discussed it here?
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