There is a thread on Dispensationalism in the Questioning Faith subforum that can overlap with the discussion that has been started here. But the threads ARE DISTINCT and should be treated as such.
If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is a mechanism to make sense of conflicting scriptures, etc., the place to do that is in the other thread.
If you want to discuss what oikonomia really means and whether dispensationalism is Biblically accurate, you can do it here or there, but THIS is the better thread for that discussion. In the Questioning Faith subforum, acceptance of the underlying authority of scripture is fair game. That aspect of the discussion is NOT fair game here. That's what distinguishes these two threads.
If you want to discuss what oikonomia really means and whether dispensationalism is Biblically accurate, you can do it here or there, but THIS is the better thread for that discussion. In the Questioning Faith subforum, acceptance of the underlying authority of scripture is fair game. That aspect of the discussion is NOT fair game here. That's what distinguishes these two threads.
So have at it!
It's probably isn't possible to properly discuss what oikonomia might mean without a certain degree of speculation or reflecting on the effect it may have on the meaning of various passages of scripture. However, even before arriving at that point, the alternate meanings of it appears that it might, could, would or should (take you pick) alter the resulting segmentations of time, administrations, scriptures, or stewards (again, take your pick.) And for that, the underlying authority of scripture needs to remain in place.
If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is the correct doctrine that should flow from the usage of oikonomia, do that here.
If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is evidence that the Bible is a bunch of hooey that people twist themselves into knots over in order to justify their faith, DO NOT DO THAT HERE. This is not the thread for it.
At present, I lean towards Dispensational, but not in the traditional form presented in PFAL or by TWI (or by STF.)
What are other thoughts on this?
After looking into this further, my view of oikonomia appears to align itself more with that of an "economy."
And as you probably already know, when economic conditions change (especially if there is a radicle change), you end up in the poor house if you don't adjust your thinking to the rules or operating environment of the new economy...
Here's a rather interesting read should you care to consider this further:
After looking into this further, my view of oikonomia appears to align itself more with that of an "economy."
And as you probably already know, when economic conditions change (especially if there is a radicle change), you end up in the poor house if you don't adjust your thinking to the rules or operating environment of the new economy...
My understanding of oikonomia is from an old Italian friend of mine, who who explained to me that it literally means "It's notta my pig." (oink-a-no-mia) (More to follow soon, my friend...)
In another Topic, TLC said to me, "Okay, I'll bite. So what is your basic premise, or where might you have discussed it here?" So here goes! To begin with, I will simply state what he requested...
The basic premise: In a nutshell, Genesis 1 seems to act as a curious sort of Table of Contents to the Bible, whereby all truth is parsed into 7 aspects, which (together) combine to form one entire unit of truth. (Simple enough for now!)
[More specifically: I see a direct correlation between the "7 days in Genesis 1" and the "7 Biblical Administrations", which (together) comprise all of the time of the Earth from Adam in Eden until the judgment at God's Great White Throne.]
And from there, I see the Paradise of New Jerusalem as 8th (That is, IF you desire to continue counting upwards.) But if not, then you may just as well begin afresh, by considering it as 1st…because it begins the story of the New Heaven and Earth. (the 3rd Earth, as it were)
And the logic behind my reasoning for this "duality" (if you please) is from EW Bullinger's book Number in Scripture, where he shows that the number "1" represents a simple beginning, while "8" represents a brand new beginning. This is similar to considering that there was truly was more to Earth's history prior to Adam in the Paradise of Eden. And in that case, we would call Eden the 8th time…in light of the "7 times" which comprised the so-called first Earth, which came to ruin…just as this Earth will again by the time Armageddon is completed.]
And by the way: Nature and science, are literally replete with things along this line! (That is… about counting from 1-7 and then beginning over again.) One example is the diatonic scale, which is the first seven notes in the musical scale: [Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti] You begin with"Do". Continuing on after the first 7 notes, you could either be going "higher" (in which case, the next "Do" would be the "8th note", OR you could just be "starting over" (in which case it would be called the "1st note" again). Get it?]
OK…enough premise for now, except to say that the first seven days (one week) are part of a "marvelous pattern which repeats itself over and over again" --- from eternity!
Have I discussed it elsewhere?: Surely, but I prefer to begin anew here. It's no bother to me. (Besides, I haven't been to GreaseSpot in a long, long time. I've only returned here again yesterday --- and much of what I had said in times past is either "lost in the shuffle" or "just too hard find again" here.)
TLC: I do hope this enough to "get you going". Bless You!
Many here are not unfamiliar with most of Bullinger's work in this area.
So, I don't see or sense anything that seems new or different.
Perhaps you'll get to it in your next post.
Huh? Bullinger never equated the 7 days in Genesis 1 to "correlate" with the 7 Biblical administrations, as a Table of Contents to the Bible. (I did that myself!) And...both he and VP concluded that New Jerusalem was the 7th administration. (But I said that the 7th admin ends at God's throne, and that New Jerusalem is the 8th one (if you keep on counting upwards, that is), which Bullinger called the "Eternal State" and VP, the "Final Paradise", or "Glory Administration").
And---my referencing Bullinger's Number in Scripture was merely to show how similar in scope the numbers 1 and 8 are. And also within my post (above) there is nothing mentioned concerning how Bullinger divided Biblical administrations...and what I said was (very obviously, I thought) different than his rendering.
Are you being funny with me or something...pulling my chain, as it were? (I wish no harm.)
Huh? Bullinger never equated the 7 days in Genesis 1 to "correlate" with the 7 Biblical administrations, as a Table of Contents to the Bible. (I did that myself!) And...both he and VP concluded that New Jerusalem was the 7th administration. (But I said that the 7th admin ends at God's throne, and that New Jerusalem is the 8th one (if you keep on counting upwards, that is), which Bullinger called the "Eternal State" and VP, the "Final Paradise", or "Glory Administration").
And---my referencing Bullinger's Number in Scripture was merely to show how similar in scope the numbers 1 and 8 are. And also within my post (above) there is nothing mentioned concerning how Bullinger divided Biblical administrations...and what I said was (very obviously, I thought) different than his rendering.
Are you being funny with me or something...pulling my chain, as it were? (I wish no harm.)
Spec
Okay, perhaps you wouldn't mind laying out the 8 separations (makes no difference at this point exactly what you want to call them, dispensations will work just fine.)
Here's Bullinger's:
1. The Edenic state of innocence.
End—the expulsion from Eden.
2. The period "without law" (the times of ignorance, Acts 17:30).
End—The Flood, and the judgment on Babel.
3. The era under law.
End—The rejection of Israel.
4. The period of grace.
End—The "day of the Lord".
5. The epoch of judgment.
End—The destruction of Antichrist.
6. The millennial age.
End—The destruction of Satan, and the judgment of the great white throne.
7. The eternal state of glory.
No End.
TWI's is different, adding in "the Christ Administration" and then combining the judgement and millennial age.
Okay, perhaps you wouldn't mind laying out the 8 separations (makes no difference at this point exactly what you want to call them, dispensations will work just fine.)
Here's Bullinger's:
1. The Edenic state of innocence.
End—the expulsion from Eden.
2. The period "without law" (the times of ignorance, Acts 17:30).
End—The Flood, and the judgment on Babel.
3. The era under law.
End—The rejection of Israel.
4. The period of grace.
End—The "day of the Lord".
5. The epoch of judgment.
End—The destruction of Antichrist.
6. The millennial age.
End—The destruction of Satan, and the judgment of the great white throne.
7. The eternal state of glory.
No End.
TWI's is different, adding in "the Christ Administration" and then combining the judgement and millennial age.
What's your take?
OK TLC! I see you really are serious, so I will invest a bit of time with you. (Sorry if I seemed to come off a bit "haughty" to this point.)
I've also picked up a bit of info on you by perusing GS. (I'm not a "troll", though! LOL) You seem to have "been around a lot", and are certainly no novice. In light of that, I will try to be more concise, and cut to the chase as best I can, so as not to waste too much of your precious time. (I'm truly "honored" that such a one of your caliber has taken an interest in "my work"…which is a hell of a lot more than I ever saw at TWI!)
You appear to be a patient man, and don't seem to mind what others say which might sound a bit "different". (Many just jump to conclusions ahead of time, and then either "bash" or just drop the whole thing.) But not you! In my eyes, you are evidencing the qualities of a man of wisdom:
Pr 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Pr 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.
After when? After he has taken the time to consider the whole matter, as it were. So…this fool will speak his mind, and I trust our conversation will be directed as efficiently as seems feasible.
You are nearly "perfect" with what Bullinger presented concerning administrations (from his book How to Enjoy the Bible).
I'm attaching a MS Word Document I made which compares the findings of Bullinger, Wierwille, Spirit & Truth, and "my own take" on Biblical administrations. I believe this will help you quite a bit to see precisely where I'm coming from. (And I do hope you can read it well enough with whatever formatting GreaseSpot provides on it's site when I upload it there.)
[As an aside: The Spirit & Truth Ministry seems to be closer to me than all the rest. (Not to "bash", but John Lynn visited my area quite some time ago…and he seemed not the least bit interested in what I had found. (Besides, he's also "pretty darned busy with his own stuff", having left S&T to head up another ministry: The Living Truth Fellowship.) However, I do plan to see John Schoenheit soon…and he seems very interested, as do you. Perhaps he will "give me a listen as well". We shall see…]
Now, what remains are EW, VP (and me). They both agree pretty much until the Gospel Period. Bullinger (most likely not seeing the distinction between the "bride & body" of Christ) included our "Grace Period" within his 4th admin, which he called "Ecclesia: Grace". And we know that VP made 2 admins where Bullinger had only the one. (And both of them begin another admin at the point of the so-called "rapture".)
Now this is interesting! Although I had not seen Bullinger's book How to Enjoy the Biblewhile doing my own study, I had divided VP's 6th admin (called The Appearing) into two eras. Later on (when I had finally come across EW's book) I was very surprised to find that he had divided this time into two eras as well! (which he called Judgment, and Theocratic…or Millennial)
And (of course) they both agreed that the 7th administration was after all was finished at God's Great White Throne, which they called the Eternal State…and Final Paradise (as I said earlier).
So it remains that I seem to have found the best of both worlds, so to speak: For I agreed with VP about the 4th and 5th times, and also with EW about the 5th and 6th. The only difference is that I called EW's the 6th and 7th times, which (of necessity) would make what they called the 7th time…my 8th one (IF you desire to continue counting, that is…as a recommencement). Otherwise, you can just begin again by calling that Paradise as the "first time of the 3rd Earth", just as we did with Eden…which is the "first time of the 2nd Earth". I trust that's all clear enough to this point.
(So much for the comparison of these various works on Biblical administrations.)
Now, I have another "difference" with both EW and VP. I do not agree with their 2nd division, which they both called Patriarchal. Rather, I see that era (which I call the Time of Ignorance) to involve the events from the "expulsion" from Eden…to also include ONLY the account of the Great Flood of Noah's time. AND---I have good reasons for that, as you will see later on. (And: "I thank you in advance, my friend!" for your patience while you view my "supporting scriptural evidence". Bless you!)
Although this should be quite enough for now, I feel that just a bit more explanation may be of interest to you concerning "my chart". You'll see that I've included a "couple more 7's" there. (These are like "additional layers" in support of what I call a "wonderful pattern of 7's" throughout the Word.)
First of all, (in the white boxes) you'll notice that the first 7 manifestations are in the very same order as they're listed in 1Co 12:8-10 --- lining up with both the 7 days in Gen 1 and with the 7 admins. Also, you see that I've colorized these. (I actually "stumbled upon" this most amazing aspect about 7 years or so into my research.)
These 7 colors (a different one for each day) are "basically" in the same order as they appear in a rainbow from bottom to top! Could it be that God (who calls himself "light" in 1Jn 1:5) is bragging in the very first chapter of his book, saying: "Hey Kids! Look what your heavenly father can do with light!"? Surely, God (who designed nature) just might know a little something about how to refract light into what we call the visible spectrum!
There are certainly other "things in 7's" throughout the Word in support of all of this…as even more overlapping layers…making a very grand overall pattern to be sure!
Not to get too involved here, but (just for your consideration and overall scope) three more of the "patterns of 7s" are: The "letters to the 7 churches" (in Rev 2ff), the "7 angels sounding" (in Rev 8ff), and the "7 angels (in Rev 16ff) pouring out their vials of wrath" --- or should that be spelled viles?
I think this is quite sufficient for the time being! But don't worry…I have a "plan" which will make all of this much simpler for you:
After leaving the Way, I finished my manuscript and published the info in a book entitled Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible, which is now available worldwide. (And NO…I will not try to "sell you one"!) I would be happy to email you a PDF copy.)
If you're truly "intrigued" by some of this, then simply email me at melliot2@twcny.rr.com and I will send you one "forthwith". (But please don't tell my publisher…as they do frown on freebies ---
I'm attaching a MS Word Document I made which compares the findings of Bullinger, Wierwille, Spirit & Truth, and "my own take" on Biblical administrations. I believe this will help you quite a bit to see precisely where I'm coming from. (And I do hope you can read it well enough with whatever formatting GreaseSpot provides on it's site when I upload it there.)
I'll look at that when time allows.
So it remains that I seem to have found the best of both worlds, so to speak: For I agreed with VP about the 4th and 5th times,
I have yet to find much of any reason for "the Christ Administration" or where it came from, other than wanting to number "the Grace Administration" as the fifth.
Otherwise, you can just begin again by calling that Paradise as the "first time of the 3rd Earth", just as we did with Eden…which is the "first time of the 2nd Earth". I trust that's all clear enough to this point.
Calling it the first implies that there are more to follow after it, which I see no reason for in either the first Eden (before the time of Adam), or the next.
Furthermore, I don't see where a 3rd earth is ever spoken of in scripture, being that there is yet to be a second.
Now, I have another "difference" with both EW and VP. I do not agree with their 2nd division, which they both called Patriarchal. Rather, I see that era (which I call the Time of Ignorance) to involve the events from the "expulsion" from Eden…to also include ONLY the account of the Great Flood of Noah's time.
You not the first or only one to think that. And doesn't Schoenheit refer to it that way?
(it so happens, I agree with the separation, though not on what you've called it, and perhaps not for the same reasons.)
These 7 colors (a different one for each day) are "basically" in the same order as they appear in a rainbow from bottom to top!
If you haven't heard it before, rainbows are not restricted to or comprised of only seven colors.
Numerology can get a bit "out there" if you let it, and blind you to the simplicity of the message.
(kinda what seems to happen with all the Greek research many times...)
I would be happy to email you a PDF copy.
I may do that after a gander at what was uploaded already.
I have yet to find much of any reason for "the Christ Administration" or where it came from, other than wanting to number "the Grace Administration" as the fifth.
Same here. Wierwille and Bullinger each contorted their takes on the bible in order to make it fit their number theories. What? Was the supposed "Christ" administration 1-3 years?
Of course you realize it was never my wish to "waste your time" with any of this. Also, you must realize that (even though I was somewhat elaborate in my latest post here) I've barely scratched the surface of such an enormous "new concept".
And what's worse? For this moment, desiring brevity and putting a lot of "trust" in what must be a vast overall scope of the entire Word in your life, I have taken many "shortcuts" on your behalf in hope that some of this will "ring somewhat spiritually true" in your eyes. AND I've done all of this without "any documentation" from the Word!
From this point, I can only envision that (should you see my book) there will be quite enough "evidence" to support my findings. And if not…I'm the first one to admit I still have much to learn from others about the Scriptures. And believe it or not, I'm happy when someone is able to show me (via chapter and verse, mind you!) where I have erred in my thinking; and have no problem whatsoever adapting to something even finer than I had previously thought.
That said, let me reiterate that I've taken much liberty thus far to "put things on your plate which may not be indicative of that which constitutes a proper diet". Such is the chance we all take at times when daring to use a lot of "shortcuts", in hope of getting somewhere a little faster than normal.
As far as the colors go, (among many other things which I didn't elaborate upon) surely I am aware of the "millions of colors" which are found along the entire electromagnetic spectrum of light.But again, my purpose was to attempt being rather brief and "cut to the chase" while attempting to possibly whet your appetite, having known you for such a brief time thus far.
So my friend, (when you have the time) do take a look at the chart I sent. And if this all still seems interesting after that, then do request my book. (It's about 270 pages, which I believe is laid out fairly straightforward, and is devoid of a lot of "PhD language"…so it should go rather quickly for a man such as you.)
And after you're "up to speed" with this info, I can envision you helping me to take this "strange sounding concept" far beyond what I consider it to be at this moment, which (in reality) is but a mere drop in an ocean of spiritual truth.
Until then, God Bless You…
…and I wish you Godspeed!
Your friend and brother,
Spec
PS: Oakspear...you are also welcome to a free PDF copy of my book. If you want it, simply email me at melliot2@twcny.rr.com. Bless Ya! (Mel)
Of course you realize it was never my wish to "waste your time" with any of this.
I doubt that's ever anyone's intent. Besides, we each either do or don't waste our own time. But if we think someone else is doing it for us, maybe we need to take a little more control over our self.
So my friend, (when you have the time) do take a look at the chart I sent. And if this all still seems interesting after that, then do request my book.
Okay, I didn't realize it was just one page.
Doesn't make sense to me, so I sent a PM to you with an email address to send the book. Thanks.
It just occurred to me that by inserting the letter "n" in the third position we would be creating an Age of Porcine, as well.
Well, I'm glad you liked my little joke, Waysider! OINK...OINK...OINK... (Or should I have said, NYUK, NYUK, NYUK? --- I love the 3 Stooges!)
I doubt that's ever anyone's intent. Besides, we each either do or don't waste our own time. But if we think someone else is doing it for us, maybe we need to take a little more control over our self.
Okay, I didn't realize it was just one page.
Doesn't make sense to me, so I sent a PM to you with an email address to send the book. Thanks.
The chart is just that...only a chart. (LOL) I have emailed your book already. The details of how I came up with the chart are in the "scripture references" within the book.
Perhaps it will STILL not make sense to you in the end. And that's OK! But at least (having viewed "my evidence") you'll see the "logical way" I put that chart together. ENJOY! (If you can, that is!)
AND: If you ever come up with a "better way" to divide those administrations, I'm "all ears"!
Perhaps it will STILL not make sense to you in the end. And that's OK! But at least (having viewed "my evidence") you'll see the "logical way" I put that chart together. ENJOY! (If you can, that is!)
AND: If you ever come up with a "better way" to divide those administrations, I'm "all ears"!
Mel
After a quick cursory read through it, you're right, you "logic" still doesn't make much more sense to me. In fact, aside from a need or desire to align it with numerical significance (or something to that effect - most notable in the interpretive index of Genesis 1), there appears to be no other reasons or explanations as to why the separations are (or should be) there.
I haven't looked all that carefully (or closely) at Schoenheit's presentations in the area, but on first glance, they appear to make more sense that what TWI stands by. However, I don't necessarily agree with or care for much of his commentary on the matter, and neither did I see where he has given a great deal of explanation for why he separates it the way he does. (He does mention several different things that change, but then it's like... hey, this is the way it is, so don't bother to think much more about it.) He does come up with 8 Administations, "agrees" that they aren't an age or time period (per se), but then turns around a few paragraphs later and describes them as an "epoch" or "age." If there's a chart somewhere on his site where he sets them out more plainly to see or consider, I didn't see it. (But them, neither did I look all that hard for one.)
At this point in time, I'm inclined to finger a failure to properly identify the start of the dispensation of grace as the biggest single issue I have with it, with yours, or with TWI's. This being an issue that I'm not prepared to explain (or defend) in great detail, I'm more open to suggesting it as something meriting further discussion rather locking horns over it. However, there seems to be very little (in any) acceptance of the notion that God can and does reveal new things at different point in time, which distinctly and definitely changes the way that He interacts with mankind.
After a quick cursory read through it, you're right, you "logic" still doesn't make much more sense to me. In fact, aside from a need or desire to align it with numerical significance (or something to that effect - most notable in the interpretive index of Genesis 1), there appears to be no other reasons or explanations as to why the separations are (or should be) there.
I haven't looked all that carefully (or closely) at Schoenheit's presentations in the area, but on first glance, they appear to make more sense that what TWI stands by. However, I don't necessarily agree with or care for much of his commentary on the matter, and neither did I see where he has given a great deal of explanation for why he separates it the way he does. (He does mention several different things that change, but then it's like... hey, this is the way it is, so don't bother to think much more about it.) He does come up with 8 Administations, "agrees" that they aren't an age or time period (per se), but then turns around a few paragraphs later and describes them as an "epoch" or "age." If there's a chart somewhere on his site where he sets them out more plainly to see or consider, I didn't see it. (But them, neither did I look all that hard for one.)
At this point in time, I'm inclined to finger a failure to properly identify the start of the dispensation of grace as the biggest single issue I have with it, with yours, or with TWI's. This being an issue that I'm not prepared to explain (or defend) in great detail, I'm more open to suggesting it as something meriting further discussion rather locking horns over it. However, there seems to be very little (in any) acceptance of the notion that God can and does reveal new things at different point in time, which distinctly and definitely changes the way that He interacts with mankind.
To me, it's not so much about the administrations, but about a curious "pattern of sevens" which seems to repeat itself over and over and over in the Word, and which is also found in nature, science and physics.
We cannot but agree that God himself divided Genesis chapter 1 into seven unique and distinct divisions of time (days). It's really not that hard for anyone to see the "dual meanings" I speak of, while comparing those days with "the different times" in the Bible.
In my book, I show this "repeating pattern of sevens" from several vantage points, in order to give at least "some validation" that it does exist. These points are:
1. The 7 days in Gen 1
2. The 7 administrations
(And in Revelation)
3. The letters to the 7 churches
4. The 7 angels "sounding"
5. The 7 angels "pouring vials"
I would have included more on the "book with 7 seals" as well, but considered that to be overkill, so I left that nuance up to the reader to look into more on his own, should he desire to.
I also showed this by comparing "all of the above" with the first seven manifestations (as listed in 1 Co 12:8-10), and found some very interesting things!
I even showed a bit more from science: the refracting of light into its "7 basic colors", and displaying them as a rainbow. (Hell…that very notion itself leads us to see about the RGB system that man has designed within computer graphics, which all of the colorful videos are rendered by, etc. If you begin with the colors from the 6th day and work backwards, you'll see the infamous acronym ROY-G-BIV.)
I also briefly showed the same thing (the repeating pattern of sevens) to exist in music. Even Newton did some work on this centuries ago. In his treatise on "Opticks", he also made an attempt to correlate the 7 colors with the 7 musical notes in what he called "color music"…so it appears I'm not the first to ever try that.
I also show an example of this pattern from a psalm. (And there are more of these, but [again] I considered that to be overkill, so left a little "meat on the bone" for others to discover for themselves.)
And there's yet another nuance, but I hesitated on that one considering that it was along another man's line of work. LCM's Rise & Expansion book shows 8 divisions in the book of Acts. (Actually, I see them as 7, and then beginning over again….as with the rest…and they all fit the parameters just fine.
This may sound wild, but I see the 7 days in Gen 1 as a unit (a week) which repeats itself over and over again, whereby we can amass weeks, and months, and years, and eons of time! But that is "way down the road".
With so many intersecting points, (11 sets of these 7's with what little I've alluded to here!) I simply cannot deny that the structure itself exists! The various "layers of sevens" just sit atop each other, saying the same thing over and over from many varied viewpoints.
To deny this structure is to be nullifying literally 100's (or thousands) of interconnections, simply by asserting that they're all "coincidences". That's not how I work. I usually allow the hundreds of related things to "fit together", just as it seems they should.
Until you've gone beyond a "simple cursory reading" of my book, it will be difficult to see what I'm actually asserting here, and how it all fits together as a whole unit. I'll be patient, and hope you'll do more than to pick out one or two things from time to time which (to you) "stick out like sore thumbs" in the matter.
Surely, somewhere you must see "some good" in my work!
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modcat5
For the record:
There is a thread on Dispensationalism in the Questioning Faith subforum that can overlap with the discussion that has been started here. But the threads ARE DISTINCT and should be treated as such.
If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is a mechanism to make sense of conflicting scriptures, etc., the place to do that is in the other thread.
If you want to discuss what oikonomia really means and whether dispensationalism is Biblically accurate, you can do it here or there, but THIS is the better thread for that discussion. In the Questioning Faith subforum, acceptance of the underlying authority of scripture is fair game. That aspect of the discussion is NOT fair game here. That's what distinguishes these two threads.
So have at it!
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TLC
It's probably isn't possible to properly discuss what oikonomia might mean without a certain degree of speculation or reflecting on the effect it may have on the meaning of various passages of scripture. However, even before arriving at that point, the alternate meanings of it appears that it might, could, would or should (take you pick) alter the resulting segmentations of time, administrations, scriptures, or stewards (again, take your pick.) And for that, the underlying authority of scripture needs to remain in place.
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modcat5
Agreed.
In plainer language:
If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is the correct doctrine that should flow from the usage of oikonomia, do that here.
If you want to discuss whether dispensationalism is evidence that the Bible is a bunch of hooey that people twist themselves into knots over in order to justify their faith, DO NOT DO THAT HERE. This is not the thread for it.
That's what I meant.
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TLC
After looking into this further, my view of oikonomia appears to align itself more with that of an "economy."
And as you probably already know, when economic conditions change (especially if there is a radicle change), you end up in the poor house if you don't adjust your thinking to the rules or operating environment of the new economy...
Here's a rather interesting read should you care to consider this further:
http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2014/10/oikonomia-revisited.html
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spectrum49
My understanding of oikonomia is from an old Italian friend of mine, who who explained to me that it literally means "It's notta my pig." (oink-a-no-mia)
(More to follow soon, my friend...)
Spec :)
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spectrum49
In another Topic, TLC said to me, "Okay, I'll bite. So what is your basic premise, or where might you have discussed it here?" So here goes! To begin with, I will simply state what he requested...
The basic premise: In a nutshell, Genesis 1 seems to act as a curious sort of Table of Contents to the Bible, whereby all truth is parsed into 7 aspects, which (together) combine to form one entire unit of truth. (Simple enough for now!)
[More specifically: I see a direct correlation between the "7 days in Genesis 1" and the "7 Biblical Administrations", which (together) comprise all of the time of the Earth from Adam in Eden until the judgment at God's Great White Throne.]
And from there, I see the Paradise of New Jerusalem as 8th (That is, IF you desire to continue counting upwards.) But if not, then you may just as well begin afresh, by considering it as 1st…because it begins the story of the New Heaven and Earth. (the 3rd Earth, as it were)
And the logic behind my reasoning for this "duality" (if you please) is from EW Bullinger's book Number in Scripture, where he shows that the number "1" represents a simple beginning, while "8" represents a brand new beginning. This is similar to considering that there was truly was more to Earth's history prior to Adam in the Paradise of Eden. And in that case, we would call Eden the 8th time…in light of the "7 times" which comprised the so-called first Earth, which came to ruin…just as this Earth will again by the time Armageddon is completed.]
And by the way: Nature and science, are literally replete with things along this line! (That is… about counting from 1-7 and then beginning over again.) One example is the diatonic scale, which is the first seven notes in the musical scale: [Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti] You begin with"Do". Continuing on after the first 7 notes, you could either be going "higher" (in which case, the next "Do" would be the "8th note", OR you could just be "starting over" (in which case it would be called the "1st note" again). Get it?]
OK…enough premise for now, except to say that the first seven days (one week) are part of a "marvelous pattern which repeats itself over and over again" --- from eternity!
Have I discussed it elsewhere?: Surely, but I prefer to begin anew here. It's no bother to me. (Besides, I haven't been to GreaseSpot in a long, long time. I've only returned here again yesterday --- and much of what I had said in times past is either "lost in the shuffle" or "just too hard find again" here.)
TLC: I do hope this enough to "get you going". Bless You!
And the same to all,
Spec
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TLC
Many here are not unfamiliar with most of Bullinger's work in this area.
So, I don't see or sense anything that seems new or different.
Perhaps you'll get to it in your next post.
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spectrum49
Huh? Bullinger never equated the 7 days in Genesis 1 to "correlate" with the 7 Biblical administrations, as a Table of Contents to the Bible. (I did that myself!) And...both he and VP concluded that New Jerusalem was the 7th administration. (But I said that the 7th admin ends at God's throne, and that New Jerusalem is the 8th one (if you keep on counting upwards, that is), which Bullinger called the "Eternal State" and VP, the "Final Paradise", or "Glory Administration").
And---my referencing Bullinger's Number in Scripture was merely to show how similar in scope the numbers 1 and 8 are. And also within my post (above) there is nothing mentioned concerning how Bullinger divided Biblical administrations...and what I said was (very obviously, I thought) different than his rendering.
Are you being funny with me or something...pulling my chain, as it were? (I wish no harm.)
Spec
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TLC
Okay, perhaps you wouldn't mind laying out the 8 separations (makes no difference at this point exactly what you want to call them, dispensations will work just fine.)
Here's Bullinger's:
1. The Edenic state of innocence.
End—the expulsion from Eden.
2. The period "without law" (the times of ignorance, Acts 17:30).
End—The Flood, and the judgment on Babel.
3. The era under law.
End—The rejection of Israel.
4. The period of grace.
End—The "day of the Lord".
5. The epoch of judgment.
End—The destruction of Antichrist.
6. The millennial age.
End—The destruction of Satan, and the judgment of the great white throne.
7. The eternal state of glory.
No End.
TWI's is different, adding in "the Christ Administration" and then combining the judgement and millennial age.
What's your take?
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spectrum49
OK TLC! I see you really are serious, so I will invest a bit of time with you. (Sorry if I seemed to come off a bit "haughty" to this point.)
I've also picked up a bit of info on you by perusing GS. (I'm not a "troll", though! LOL) You seem to have "been around a lot", and are certainly no novice. In light of that, I will try to be more concise, and cut to the chase as best I can, so as not to waste too much of your precious time. (I'm truly "honored" that such a one of your caliber has taken an interest in "my work"…which is a hell of a lot more than I ever saw at TWI!)
You appear to be a patient man, and don't seem to mind what others say which might sound a bit "different". (Many just jump to conclusions ahead of time, and then either "bash" or just drop the whole thing.) But not you! In my eyes, you are evidencing the qualities of a man of wisdom:
Pr 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Pr 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.
After when? After he has taken the time to consider the whole matter, as it were. So…this fool will speak his mind, and I trust our conversation will be directed as efficiently as seems feasible.
You are nearly "perfect" with what Bullinger presented concerning administrations (from his book How to Enjoy the Bible).
I'm attaching a MS Word Document I made which compares the findings of Bullinger, Wierwille, Spirit & Truth, and "my own take" on Biblical administrations. I believe this will help you quite a bit to see precisely where I'm coming from. (And I do hope you can read it well enough with whatever formatting GreaseSpot provides on it's site when I upload it there.)
[As an aside: The Spirit & Truth Ministry seems to be closer to me than all the rest. (Not to "bash", but John Lynn visited my area quite some time ago…and he seemed not the least bit interested in what I had found. (Besides, he's also "pretty darned busy with his own stuff", having left S&T to head up another ministry: The Living Truth Fellowship.) However, I do plan to see John Schoenheit soon…and he seems very interested, as do you. Perhaps he will "give me a listen as well". We shall see…]
Now, what remains are EW, VP (and me). They both agree pretty much until the Gospel Period. Bullinger (most likely not seeing the distinction between the "bride & body" of Christ) included our "Grace Period" within his 4th admin, which he called "Ecclesia: Grace". And we know that VP made 2 admins where Bullinger had only the one. (And both of them begin another admin at the point of the so-called "rapture".)
Now this is interesting! Although I had not seen Bullinger's book How to Enjoy the Bible while doing my own study, I had divided VP's 6th admin (called The Appearing) into two eras. Later on (when I had finally come across EW's book) I was very surprised to find that he had divided this time into two eras as well! (which he called Judgment, and Theocratic…or Millennial)
And (of course) they both agreed that the 7th administration was after all was finished at God's Great White Throne, which they called the Eternal State…and Final Paradise (as I said earlier).
So it remains that I seem to have found the best of both worlds, so to speak: For I agreed with VP about the 4th and 5th times, and also with EW about the 5th and 6th. The only difference is that I called EW's the 6th and 7th times, which (of necessity) would make what they called the 7th time…my 8th one (IF you desire to continue counting, that is…as a recommencement). Otherwise, you can just begin again by calling that Paradise as the "first time of the 3rd Earth", just as we did with Eden…which is the "first time of the 2nd Earth". I trust that's all clear enough to this point.
(So much for the comparison of these various works on Biblical administrations.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I have another "difference" with both EW and VP. I do not agree with their 2nd division, which they both called Patriarchal. Rather, I see that era (which I call the Time of Ignorance) to involve the events from the "expulsion" from Eden…to also include ONLY the account of the Great Flood of Noah's time. AND---I have good reasons for that, as you will see later on. (And: "I thank you in advance, my friend!" for your patience while you view my "supporting scriptural evidence". Bless you!)
Although this should be quite enough for now, I feel that just a bit more explanation may be of interest to you concerning "my chart". You'll see that I've included a "couple more 7's" there. (These are like "additional layers" in support of what I call a "wonderful pattern of 7's" throughout the Word.)
First of all, (in the white boxes) you'll notice that the first 7 manifestations are in the very same order as they're listed in 1Co 12:8-10 --- lining up with both the 7 days in Gen 1 and with the 7 admins. Also, you see that I've colorized these. (I actually "stumbled upon" this most amazing aspect about 7 years or so into my research.)
These 7 colors (a different one for each day) are "basically" in the same order as they appear in a rainbow from bottom to top! Could it be that God (who calls himself "light" in 1Jn 1:5) is bragging in the very first chapter of his book, saying: "Hey Kids! Look what your heavenly father can do with light!"? Surely, God (who designed nature) just might know a little something about how to refract light into what we call the visible spectrum!
There are certainly other "things in 7's" throughout the Word in support of all of this…as even more overlapping layers…making a very grand overall pattern to be sure!
Not to get too involved here, but (just for your consideration and overall scope) three more of the "patterns of 7s" are: The "letters to the 7 churches" (in Rev 2ff), the "7 angels sounding" (in Rev 8ff), and the "7 angels (in Rev 16ff) pouring out their vials of wrath" --- or should that be spelled viles?
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I think this is quite sufficient for the time being! But don't worry…I have a "plan" which will make all of this much simpler for you:
After leaving the Way, I finished my manuscript and published the info in a book entitled Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible, which is now available worldwide. (And NO…I will not try to "sell you one"!) I would be happy to email you a PDF copy.)
If you're truly "intrigued" by some of this, then simply email me at melliot2@twcny.rr.com and I will send you one "forthwith". (But please don't tell my publisher…as they do frown on freebies ---
God Bless You, my brother!
On His Majesty's Service,
Mel Elliott, Liverpool NY
Administration Chart - x4.doc
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TLC
I'll look at that when time allows.
I have yet to find much of any reason for "the Christ Administration" or where it came from, other than wanting to number "the Grace Administration" as the fifth.
Calling it the first implies that there are more to follow after it, which I see no reason for in either the first Eden (before the time of Adam), or the next.
Furthermore, I don't see where a 3rd earth is ever spoken of in scripture, being that there is yet to be a second.
You not the first or only one to think that. And doesn't Schoenheit refer to it that way?
(it so happens, I agree with the separation, though not on what you've called it, and perhaps not for the same reasons.)
If you haven't heard it before, rainbows are not restricted to or comprised of only seven colors.
Numerology can get a bit "out there" if you let it, and blind you to the simplicity of the message.
(kinda what seems to happen with all the Greek research many times...)
I may do that after a gander at what was uploaded already.
(which won't be before the weekend)
But thank you for the offer.
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Oakspear
Same here. Wierwille and Bullinger each contorted their takes on the bible in order to make it fit their number theories. What? Was the supposed "Christ" administration 1-3 years?
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spectrum49
My friend TLC,
Of course you realize it was never my wish to "waste your time" with any of this. Also, you must realize that (even though I was somewhat elaborate in my latest post here) I've barely scratched the surface of such an enormous "new concept".
And what's worse? For this moment, desiring brevity and putting a lot of "trust" in what must be a vast overall scope of the entire Word in your life, I have taken many "shortcuts" on your behalf in hope that some of this will "ring somewhat spiritually true" in your eyes. AND I've done all of this without "any documentation" from the Word!
From this point, I can only envision that (should you see my book) there will be quite enough "evidence" to support my findings. And if not…I'm the first one to admit I still have much to learn from others about the Scriptures. And believe it or not, I'm happy when someone is able to show me (via chapter and verse, mind you!) where I have erred in my thinking; and have no problem whatsoever adapting to something even finer than I had previously thought.
That said, let me reiterate that I've taken much liberty thus far to "put things on your plate which may not be indicative of that which constitutes a proper diet". Such is the chance we all take at times when daring to use a lot of "shortcuts", in hope of getting somewhere a little faster than normal.
As far as the colors go, (among many other things which I didn't elaborate upon) surely I am aware of the "millions of colors" which are found along the entire electromagnetic spectrum of light. But again, my purpose was to attempt being rather brief and "cut to the chase" while attempting to possibly whet your appetite, having known you for such a brief time thus far.
So my friend, (when you have the time) do take a look at the chart I sent. And if this all still seems interesting after that, then do request my book. (It's about 270 pages, which I believe is laid out fairly straightforward, and is devoid of a lot of "PhD language"…so it should go rather quickly for a man such as you.)
And after you're "up to speed" with this info, I can envision you helping me to take this "strange sounding concept" far beyond what I consider it to be at this moment, which (in reality) is but a mere drop in an ocean of spiritual truth.
Until then, God Bless You…
…and I wish you Godspeed!
Your friend and brother,
Spec
PS: Oakspear...you are also welcome to a free PDF copy of my book. If you want it, simply email me at melliot2@twcny.rr.com. Bless Ya! (Mel)
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TLC
I doubt that's ever anyone's intent. Besides, we each either do or don't waste our own time. But if we think someone else is doing it for us, maybe we need to take a little more control over our self.
Okay, I didn't realize it was just one page.
Doesn't make sense to me, so I sent a PM to you with an email address to send the book. Thanks.
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waysider
It just occurred to me that by inserting the letter "n" in the third position we would be creating an Age of Porcine, as well.
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Steve Lortz
If there was a "Like" button here the way there is on Facebook, I'd push it for this post, waysider!
Love,
Steve
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spectrum49
x
Well, I'm glad you liked my little joke, Waysider! OINK...OINK...OINK... (Or should I have said, NYUK, NYUK, NYUK? --- I love the 3 Stooges!)
The chart is just that...only a chart. (LOL) I have emailed your book already. The details of how I came up with the chart are in the "scripture references" within the book.
Perhaps it will STILL not make sense to you in the end. And that's OK! But at least (having viewed "my evidence") you'll see the "logical way" I put that chart together. ENJOY! (If you can, that is!)
AND: If you ever come up with a "better way" to divide those administrations, I'm "all ears"!
Mel
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TLC
After a quick cursory read through it, you're right, you "logic" still doesn't make much more sense to me. In fact, aside from a need or desire to align it with numerical significance (or something to that effect - most notable in the interpretive index of Genesis 1), there appears to be no other reasons or explanations as to why the separations are (or should be) there.
I haven't looked all that carefully (or closely) at Schoenheit's presentations in the area, but on first glance, they appear to make more sense that what TWI stands by. However, I don't necessarily agree with or care for much of his commentary on the matter, and neither did I see where he has given a great deal of explanation for why he separates it the way he does. (He does mention several different things that change, but then it's like... hey, this is the way it is, so don't bother to think much more about it.) He does come up with 8 Administations, "agrees" that they aren't an age or time period (per se), but then turns around a few paragraphs later and describes them as an "epoch" or "age." If there's a chart somewhere on his site where he sets them out more plainly to see or consider, I didn't see it. (But them, neither did I look all that hard for one.)
At this point in time, I'm inclined to finger a failure to properly identify the start of the dispensation of grace as the biggest single issue I have with it, with yours, or with TWI's. This being an issue that I'm not prepared to explain (or defend) in great detail, I'm more open to suggesting it as something meriting further discussion rather locking horns over it. However, there seems to be very little (in any) acceptance of the notion that God can and does reveal new things at different point in time, which distinctly and definitely changes the way that He interacts with mankind.
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spectrum49
To me, it's not so much about the administrations, but about a curious "pattern of sevens" which seems to repeat itself over and over and over in the Word, and which is also found in nature, science and physics.
We cannot but agree that God himself divided Genesis chapter 1 into seven unique and distinct divisions of time (days). It's really not that hard for anyone to see the "dual meanings" I speak of, while comparing those days with "the different times" in the Bible.
In my book, I show this "repeating pattern of sevens" from several vantage points, in order to give at least "some validation" that it does exist. These points are:
1. The 7 days in Gen 1
2. The 7 administrations
(And in Revelation)
3. The letters to the 7 churches
4. The 7 angels "sounding"
5. The 7 angels "pouring vials"
I would have included more on the "book with 7 seals" as well, but considered that to be overkill, so I left that nuance up to the reader to look into more on his own, should he desire to.
I also showed this by comparing "all of the above" with the first seven manifestations (as listed in 1 Co 12:8-10), and found some very interesting things!
I even showed a bit more from science: the refracting of light into its "7 basic colors", and displaying them as a rainbow. (Hell…that very notion itself leads us to see about the RGB system that man has designed within computer graphics, which all of the colorful videos are rendered by, etc. If you begin with the colors from the 6th day and work backwards, you'll see the infamous acronym ROY-G-BIV.)
I also briefly showed the same thing (the repeating pattern of sevens) to exist in music. Even Newton did some work on this centuries ago. In his treatise on "Opticks", he also made an attempt to correlate the 7 colors with the 7 musical notes in what he called "color music"…so it appears I'm not the first to ever try that.
I also show an example of this pattern from a psalm. (And there are more of these, but [again] I considered that to be overkill, so left a little "meat on the bone" for others to discover for themselves.)
And there's yet another nuance, but I hesitated on that one considering that it was along another man's line of work. LCM's Rise & Expansion book shows 8 divisions in the book of Acts. (Actually, I see them as 7, and then beginning over again….as with the rest…and they all fit the parameters just fine.
This may sound wild, but I see the 7 days in Gen 1 as a unit (a week) which repeats itself over and over again, whereby we can amass weeks, and months, and years, and eons of time! But that is "way down the road".
With so many intersecting points, (11 sets of these 7's with what little I've alluded to here!) I simply cannot deny that the structure itself exists! The various "layers of sevens" just sit atop each other, saying the same thing over and over from many varied viewpoints.
To deny this structure is to be nullifying literally 100's (or thousands) of interconnections, simply by asserting that they're all "coincidences". That's not how I work. I usually allow the hundreds of related things to "fit together", just as it seems they should.
Until you've gone beyond a "simple cursory reading" of my book, it will be difficult to see what I'm actually asserting here, and how it all fits together as a whole unit. I'll be patient, and hope you'll do more than to pick out one or two things from time to time which (to you) "stick out like sore thumbs" in the matter.
Surely, somewhere you must see "some good" in my work!
SPEC
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