The Way frequently employed this tactic to deny people the necessary opportunity to grieve, as well. To be fair, The Way is not the only organization that does this. However, we're not really talking about what other groups do or have done, we're talking specifically about The Way.
Many years ago, I needed time and space to grieve the loss of a close friend. I was told I couldn't change what had happened and that I needed to move on immediately. After leaving the cemetery, having served as a pall bearer, I went straight to the next session of Dealing With The Adversary, at the urging of leadership. They told me I needed to put the past behind me and move forward right away. No time to cry over what can't be changed. "Word over the World must take precedence over all else", they told me. "Emotions are the devil's way of tricking me out of staying focused", they said.
As you said, you can't change the factual realities of the past but you can change the way it is interpreted. I was manipulated into relinquishing a grieving process that I really needed. Shame on them for promoting this nonsense. And, shame on me for listening to them.
"forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead", from Phil 3:13 was used to keep us from thinking about the past in any way shape or form.
Awhile after I left TWI I started to have lots of memories coming back to me from my pre-TWI life. I realized it was a continuum - my whole life, before, during and after TWI. While we were in TWI we were told our previous non-TWI life was nothing and all that counted was our TWI life. I think all these memories came back to me because I had suppressed memories of my "former life" while in TWI and now I was free to remember them. I don't think we're meant to suppress the past.
I remember this phrase was used often. It was used on me recently. I laughed on the inside.
"You can't change the past" sounds like a Wayfer is demonstrating some profound wisdom about moving on or taking a high-road and not wasting time worrying.
It's not.
What they're really saying is "I see a possible error in judgement . . . so in order to avoid having to apologize, change ways, or open the door to other possible issues . . . I'm going to sweep it under the rug and act like ending the conversation with this statement is a mature action that nobody will even notice"
And yes, you can change the past. Maybe not factual events. But their interpretation is subject to change.
At least that's one way I see it . . . I recall it was a frequently used phrase among followers of The Way. Does anyone else remember? I'd be interested in hearing others insight on this one.
Great insight. By the way, I had a close friend who had spent years on HQ staff, who then went out WOW, ended up getting divorced and leaving twi. He and I rented a house together for a year in the 1980s.
He explored an organization founded on that concept.
He went through peer counseling. He seemed to appreciate the insight and change it brought to his life but he never tried to get me to get involved with it.
Apparently, the organization is still around. But it's not perfect and I've found critiques of it online also.
Apparently, the organization is still around. But it's not perfect and I've found critiques of it online also.
Interesting . . . no statement is perfect. History is constantly re-written, I'm sure there's other ways to look at that.
My intent is interpret Waytalk . . . just working on how to react to their words.
Wayfers have a lot of little sayings that may have begun with leadership but take on their own life. Wayfers often expect a predictable response from statements like "well you can't change the past" . . . I imagine after leaving TWI and realizing that there's a hundred ways those expectations are far from perfect can often feel like enlightenment.
Seeing the thought process behind their words, even if they don't understand them, could make dealing with and directing conversation with them simpler. (and less aggravating)
Interesting . . . no statement is perfect. History is constantly re-written, I'm sure there's other ways to look at that.
My intent is interpret Waytalk . . . just working on how to react to their words.
Wayfers have a lot of little sayings that may have begun with leadership but take on their own life. Wayfers often expect a predictable response from statements like "well you can't change the past" . . . I imagine after leaving TWI and realizing that there's a hundred ways those expectations are far from perfect can often feel like enlightenment.
Seeing the thought process behind their words, even if they don't understand them, could make dealing with and directing conversation with them simpler. (and less aggravating)
Maybe the thing to strive for here is to politely challenge trite and cliché sayings, and state plainly what is minimized with euphemism.
Example: "I agree that you can't change the past, but you seem to be using that as a way of excusing wrong doing. Do you mean to do that?"
I will try to experiment with this more on my own family and see how it goes. Don't worry, I'll report back!
Say "I feel" instead of "you" as in I feel you seem to be using that as a was of excusing wrong doing. It's more accurate by leaving out the assumptions.
My viewpoint is no you can't change the past but you can distance yourself from it as opposed to making choices that will destine you to repeat it, like continuing to drink from broken wine skins.
Maybe you can change the past. You learn more about why your parents made or forbade you doing something. As an adult you can decide they weren't being mean but actually said that because they loved you. So you choose to change the past by acknowledging their concerns for you AND you can change how you feel about whatever was compelled or forbidden. You can look at your life and consider how it would have been affected if you had done. .. whatever.
Maybe you can't change the physical events that were painful - a death, an accident - but you can change your attitude and your perspective, and that in turn does change the eventerms somewhat.
And before you all complain, there are definitely some heartrending things in my life that I wish had never happened and that really cannot be changed.
It's really a twisted straw man argument of sorts. We all know you can't actually change the factual realities of what has already taken place. We can't dispute that point. So, because they know you can't dispute that, (whether consciously or not) they intend to divert your attention from acknowledging and learning from the past and from changing your perception of the past. They make the argument about "change" when really it's about acknowledgement, etc. It's used as a type of rationalization.
It's really a twisted straw man argument of sorts. We all know you can't actually change the factual realities of what has already taken place. We can't dispute that point. So, because they know you can't dispute that, (whether consciously or not) they intend to divert your attention from acknowledging and learning from the past and from changing your perception of the past. They make the argument about "change" when really it's about acknowledgement, etc. It's used as a type of rationalization.
Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
Piecing together and rethinking what happened before can alter perception of what is going on now, and alter views looking forward. Which of course could lead to actions they prefer would not take place.
If you take those new actions, they want to argue that YOU are a FOOL, and not the other way around.
Piecing together and rethinking what happened before can alter perception of what is going on now, and alter views looking forward. Which of course could lead to actions they prefer would not take place.
If you take those new actions, they want to argue that YOU are a FOOL, and not the other way around.
Look, I hear you, but you have to understand something. You can't change the past.
You can't change the past says to me that the past doesn't determine anyone's future. In other words, don't condemn yourself.
Whoever said something about grieving, I agree. People are different. Some people, in or out of twi, can deal with the death of a loved one relatively seamlessly and move on without much disruption, but some people need their space. They may require an indefinite period of time to grieve and only they know when it's done. Yeah twi was kind of stupid about that sometimes.
All thru twi I never let people mandate how I processed anything. Every so often somebody would get in my face and get all morally superior and tell me how it is and at some point they'd look at my face and realize they were getting nowhere and then they'd say love you bro and back off and cop an attitude toward me and talk about me negatively (This same scenario happens all the time at workplaces)to other believers, but that was as far as it went up to a point in time. Before the mid 80s it seemed like the majority of believers really tried to walk in love toward other believers despite what they thought of your flesh. That may not have been true everywhere, but that's how I recall it.
You can't change the past says to me that the past doesn't determine anyone's future. In other words, don't condemn yourself.
.
OK, so help me understand this. If I tell you VP was a serial rapist who drugged and then violated many of his female congregants your response would be that I should not condemn myself? That's certainly an unusual perspective.
Oh, and that thing about the past not determining the future: Why do you suppose, then, employers run background checks on prospective employees?
And, then there's this: "All thru twi I never let people mandate how I processed anything."
Are you familiar with the expression "Can't see the forest for the trees."?
OK, so help me understand this. If I tell you VP was a serial rapist who drugged and then violated many of his female congregants your response would be that I should not condemn myself? That's certainly an unusual perspective.
Oh, and that thing about the past not determining the future: Why do you suppose, then, employers run background checks on prospective employees?
And, then there's this: "All thru twi I never let people mandate how I processed anything."
Are you familiar with the expression "Can't see the forest for the trees."?
You can't change the past says to me that the past doesn't determine anyone's future. In other words, don't condemn yourself.
Whoever said something about grieving, I agree. People are different. Some people, in or out of twi, can deal with the death of a loved one relatively seamlessly and move on without much disruption, but some people need their space. They may require an indefinite period of time to grieve and only they know when it's done. Yeah twi was kind of stupid about that sometimes.
. . .
In the context of Wayfers, people don't grieve, because their definition of love is "giving people The Word".
“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” ― George Orwell, 1984 (source: Google)
It's important to be aware that anyone dismissing the past is really positioning themselves to control the discussion. Asserting that the past is relevant for discussion is necessary when dealing with Wayfers, whoever they are. IMO.
Anyone still in a position of twi-leadership who trots out such lame one-liners
or follows in the pathologically disturbed meanderings of Rosalie and co.....
after some 15 years of internet-exposed corruption, is a certifiable sycophant.
And denying the need to grieve loss IS pathologically disturbed and disturbing. I'm totally with you there, Skyrider.
"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ― George Orwell, 1984 (source: Google)
It's important to be aware that anyone dismissing the past is really positioning themselves to control the discussion. Asserting that the past is relevant for discussion is necessary when dealing with Wayfers, whoever they are. IMO.
OK, so help me understand this. If I tell you VP was a serial rapist who drugged and then violated many of his female congregants your response would be that I should not condemn myself? That's certainly an unusual perspective.
No, idios. If YOU think you'll never amount to anything because of something in your past, you're condemning yourself. Human nature. But God is greater than human nature.
Oh, and that thing about the past not determining the future: Why do you suppose, then, employers run background checks on prospective employees?
Because they want any hope they can get of properly screening applicants. What are they supposed to do? Walk with God? Who does that?
And, then there's this: "All thru twi I never let people mandate how I processed anything."
Are you familiar with the expression "Can't see the forest for the trees."?
Yeah, johniam, I lied to myself as well when it came to thought processes, but it's hard to determine whether one has until one is completely free from the whole thing. Alas, methinks you still full enough of twi tripe to not discern. But you have improved over the years. The past is enough of a predictor of future that murderers, rapists, and other criminals are jailed for extended periods of time to not only punish them for that crime, but to presumably hinder them from repeating. To assume this doesn't happen on a less grand scale is naive.
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waysider
The Way frequently employed this tactic to deny people the necessary opportunity to grieve, as well. To be fair, The Way is not the only organization that does this. However, we're not really talking about what other groups do or have done, we're talking specifically about The Way.
Many years ago, I needed time and space to grieve the loss of a close friend. I was told I couldn't change what had happened and that I needed to move on immediately. After leaving the cemetery, having served as a pall bearer, I went straight to the next session of Dealing With The Adversary, at the urging of leadership. They told me I needed to put the past behind me and move forward right away. No time to cry over what can't be changed. "Word over the World must take precedence over all else", they told me. "Emotions are the devil's way of tricking me out of staying focused", they said.
As you said, you can't change the factual realities of the past but you can change the way it is interpreted. I was manipulated into relinquishing a grieving process that I really needed. Shame on them for promoting this nonsense. And, shame on me for listening to them.
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outandabout
"forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead", from Phil 3:13 was used to keep us from thinking about the past in any way shape or form.
Awhile after I left TWI I started to have lots of memories coming back to me from my pre-TWI life. I realized it was a continuum - my whole life, before, during and after TWI. While we were in TWI we were told our previous non-TWI life was nothing and all that counted was our TWI life. I think all these memories came back to me because I had suppressed memories of my "former life" while in TWI and now I was free to remember them. I don't think we're meant to suppress the past.
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Rocky
Great insight. By the way, I had a close friend who had spent years on HQ staff, who then went out WOW, ended up getting divorced and leaving twi. He and I rented a house together for a year in the 1980s.
He explored an organization founded on that concept.
He went through peer counseling. He seemed to appreciate the insight and change it brought to his life but he never tried to get me to get involved with it.
Apparently, the organization is still around. But it's not perfect and I've found critiques of it online also.
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waysider
Good point. How are we supposed to learn from the past if we never remember it?
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Bolshevik
Interesting . . . no statement is perfect. History is constantly re-written, I'm sure there's other ways to look at that.
My intent is interpret Waytalk . . . just working on how to react to their words.
Wayfers have a lot of little sayings that may have begun with leadership but take on their own life. Wayfers often expect a predictable response from statements like "well you can't change the past" . . . I imagine after leaving TWI and realizing that there's a hundred ways those expectations are far from perfect can often feel like enlightenment.
Seeing the thought process behind their words, even if they don't understand them, could make dealing with and directing conversation with them simpler. (and less aggravating)
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shortfuse
Maybe the thing to strive for here is to politely challenge trite and cliché sayings, and state plainly what is minimized with euphemism.
Example: "I agree that you can't change the past, but you seem to be using that as a way of excusing wrong doing. Do you mean to do that?"
I will try to experiment with this more on my own family and see how it goes. Don't worry, I'll report back!
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Bolshevik
I imagine the blank stare tactic in return.
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Tzaia
Say "I feel" instead of "you" as in I feel you seem to be using that as a was of excusing wrong doing. It's more accurate by leaving out the assumptions.
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chockfull
My viewpoint is no you can't change the past but you can distance yourself from it as opposed to making choices that will destine you to repeat it, like continuing to drink from broken wine skins.
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Twinky
Maybe you can change the past. You learn more about why your parents made or forbade you doing something. As an adult you can decide they weren't being mean but actually said that because they loved you. So you choose to change the past by acknowledging their concerns for you AND you can change how you feel about whatever was compelled or forbidden. You can look at your life and consider how it would have been affected if you had done. .. whatever.
Maybe you can't change the physical events that were painful - a death, an accident - but you can change your attitude and your perspective, and that in turn does change the eventerms somewhat.
And before you all complain, there are definitely some heartrending things in my life that I wish had never happened and that really cannot be changed.
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waysider
It's really a twisted straw man argument of sorts. We all know you can't actually change the factual realities of what has already taken place. We can't dispute that point. So, because they know you can't dispute that, (whether consciously or not) they intend to divert your attention from acknowledging and learning from the past and from changing your perception of the past. They make the argument about "change" when really it's about acknowledgement, etc. It's used as a type of rationalization.
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Bolshevik
Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
Piecing together and rethinking what happened before can alter perception of what is going on now, and alter views looking forward. Which of course could lead to actions they prefer would not take place.
If you take those new actions, they want to argue that YOU are a FOOL, and not the other way around.
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shortfuse
Look, I hear you, but you have to understand something. You can't change the past.
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johniam
You can't change the past says to me that the past doesn't determine anyone's future. In other words, don't condemn yourself.
Whoever said something about grieving, I agree. People are different. Some people, in or out of twi, can deal with the death of a loved one relatively seamlessly and move on without much disruption, but some people need their space. They may require an indefinite period of time to grieve and only they know when it's done. Yeah twi was kind of stupid about that sometimes.
All thru twi I never let people mandate how I processed anything. Every so often somebody would get in my face and get all morally superior and tell me how it is and at some point they'd look at my face and realize they were getting nowhere and then they'd say love you bro and back off and cop an attitude toward me and talk about me negatively (This same scenario happens all the time at workplaces)to other believers, but that was as far as it went up to a point in time. Before the mid 80s it seemed like the majority of believers really tried to walk in love toward other believers despite what they thought of your flesh. That may not have been true everywhere, but that's how I recall it.
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waysider
OK, so help me understand this. If I tell you VP was a serial rapist who drugged and then violated many of his female congregants your response would be that I should not condemn myself? That's certainly an unusual perspective.
Oh, and that thing about the past not determining the future: Why do you suppose, then, employers run background checks on prospective employees?
And, then there's this: "All thru twi I never let people mandate how I processed anything."
Are you familiar with the expression "Can't see the forest for the trees."?
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Rocky
Bam! Nailed it.
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Bolshevik
In the context of Wayfers, people don't grieve, because their definition of love is "giving people The Word".
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skyrider
In the context of twi-doctrine, mature followers should NOT succumb to grieving.
Grieving another's death indicates weakness and lack of believing "the word."
Grieving, like other emotions, opens one up to devil spirit infiltration.
Besides.....all that grieving stuff is so Old Testament.
True believers have no time for such trivial matters.
.
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skyrider
Anyone still in a position of twi-leadership who trots out such lame one-liners
or follows in the pathologically disturbed meanderings of Rosalie and co.....
after some 15 years of internet-exposed corruption, is a certifiable sycophant.
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Bolshevik
“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” ― George Orwell, 1984 (source: Google)
It's important to be aware that anyone dismissing the past is really positioning themselves to control the discussion. Asserting that the past is relevant for discussion is necessary when dealing with Wayfers, whoever they are. IMO.
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Rocky
And denying the need to grieve loss IS pathologically disturbed and disturbing. I'm totally with you there, Skyrider.
Definitely
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johniam
Look in the mirror.
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Tzaia
Yeah, johniam, I lied to myself as well when it came to thought processes, but it's hard to determine whether one has until one is completely free from the whole thing. Alas, methinks you still full enough of twi tripe to not discern. But you have improved over the years. The past is enough of a predictor of future that murderers, rapists, and other criminals are jailed for extended periods of time to not only punish them for that crime, but to presumably hinder them from repeating. To assume this doesn't happen on a less grand scale is naive.
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Bolshevik
Johniam,
There's bringing up the past in order to learn from experience, and make informed decisions going forward.
There's also bringing up the past to condemn.
Life is full of regrets, why not just accept them as that? We learn more from failures then we do from success?
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