Make sure to distinguish between the words "research" and "research" (pronounced re-search).
As a workman of the Word, the first thing you need to know is that the work has been done. He built a bridge . . . and we crossed it . . . something . . so there's no need to research. Just re-search VPW's work. Anything else is a waste of time and resources, a distraction.
I personally find great pride in knowing someone else does work so I don't ever have to. One of the many benefits of being born again in The Word.
I'm starting another thread, related to my last one about the trinity. I am curious about the appeal of the *research* aspect of TWI. For example, I've been reading about the Jesus People Movement, with keen interest in the overlap to VPW. It seems VPW was not all that impressive to the Christian hippies of Haight Ashbury, but the few he was able to coax out to summer school in Ohio came away very impressed by the research. Things like four crucified, Paul's thorn in the flesh, etc. Also, and I don't if I'd call this research, the teaching discerning of spirits. My take away from these accounts is that Vic was trying hard to project an image of a great "man of god" with special insights, and it's this special knowledge that drew in some of these early Jesus People folk.
In talking to my own still involved family recently, one of the greatest points of Way Pride for them is still the research aspect of the ministry.
Anybody else feel a strong initial draw or compulsion to stay based on the special knowledge TWI was offering?
I don't think it was the greatness of the research emanating (or, rather, being copied and redistributed) from New Knoxville. For me, it was the logic of the fundamentalist approach as described (by Bullinger and then distributed) by VPW. The keys to research made sense to me, and the proclamation that, if TWI teaching was found to be inaccurate, it would be changed. There was even a minor change in the teaching about "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" to demonstrate TWI's dedication to research.
Of course, when anyone used the keys to show that some TWI doctrine was bunk, he was castigated as unknowledgeable, compared to the Great Vic.
I was on the receiving end of THAT discussion, a number of times, before I was finally cast out into the light.
On 12/9/2015 at 3:55 PM, GeorgeStGeorge said:
I don't think it was the greatness of the research emanating (or, rather, being copied and redistributed) from New Knoxville. For me, it was the logic of the fundamentalist approach as described (by Bullinger and then distributed) by VPW. The keys to research made sense to me, and the proclamation that, if TWI teaching was found to be inaccurate, it would be changed. There was even a minor change in the teaching about "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" to demonstrate TWI's dedication to research.
Of course, when anyone used the keys to show that some TWI doctrine was bunk, he was castigated as unknowledgeable, compared to the Great Vic.
I was on the receiving end of THAT discussion, a number of times, before I was finally cast out into the light.
George
Great points George !
I was looking up "research" on Grease Spot because I was thinking of that idea that TWI would change something that they taught if further research proved otherwise; I remember hearing that occasionally and thought well that's real impressive - they're after the truth even if they have to change their position on something...so other than the Eli Eli thing you mentioned - has there ever been any changes made ?
the sciences are not based on a pile of dusty old books with observations, data, theories and ideas etched in stone - I mean as tools, technologies, data acquisition improve - so does our picture of the cosmos.
we would never have any technological advances in any field if everyone was as closed-minded as TWI "research" folks - they don't even have a research department anymore or do they?
I tend to think the dangerous assumption on TWI's part is that there are no issues with their doctrine - or at least it's the assumption of the general public.
I was looking up "research" on Grease Spot because that idea that TWI would change something that they taught if further research proved otherwise...so other than the Eli Eli thing you mentioned - has there ever been any changes made ?
So to answer that question, one thing that would have to be answered first is "what kind of questions emanating from the flock would be in the category of that requiring "further research"? We have already established that the Way has no personnel in their Research Department as full-time personnel. The Way is not actively pursuing "further research" on their own without any outside impetus that would be in the category of updating or changing anything they taught. Mostly research in the Way is governed by Way Publications, which is Rozilla's baby. They are concerned with what Ralph Waldo Emerson calls "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", from his essay on Self-Reliance. This means that what is of most interest is that what is put out currently matches what was put out previously especially in key areas of concern. This is primarily driven by who dictates Way strategy in these items, that being legal advice - and most especially Rozilla's relationship with one Louis C0lumb0. That influence on all the lawsuit defenses dictated the strategy that followed. Limit legal exposure by maintaining the same doctrine. Change in longtime doctrine and rules opens legal exposure.
So again what question would trigger research? The only one I am aware of in a few decades is that over the topic of debt. That one has had the flock in arms for decades. People have phoned in, written in, researched in, adviced in, and sacrificed their ministry careers in for quite some time over this topic. People have lovingly presented an opposing opinion to the Board of D's straight from scripture and common sense, only to be blackballed, put on probation, dropped, and shunned. You know, all that stuff the new loving ministry doesn't do any more, right?
The latest twisted logic on this is that now the Way has two distinctions for fellowship coordinators - one a Household Fellowship Coordinator - the title reserved for someone that they Way considers "out of debt". Then they have the distinction of "Bible Study coordinator" - this one is someone who the way considers "in debt". I guess the logic there is that someone could study the Bible, but not really have "full fellowship" because of this debt consideration.
Next, what does the Way consider "in debt"? This gets down into Pharisaical divisions such as whether or not a person has leased a car or purchased a car on a car loan. The former is considered by the Way "out of debt", while the latter is considered "in debt", thus subject to denigrating or less entitled labels, restrictions from certain classes such as the advanced class, and restrictions from leadership programs or outreach programs such as Way Disciples or the Way Corps. A home mortgage is considered "in debt". Thus, none of the field leadership in the Way would be able to purchase a home without the cash to do so up front. Well that's not totally true. They have this thing that's like an "entitlement exception" Apparently if you have some form of a relative who can put your mortgage in their name, then the Way does not consider you "in debt". You know, the Bible teaches against that, but that's irrelevant, right? We're going for that foolish consistency.
So - Way signature for success - car LEASE, home LEASE, or mortgage in relative's name. Hey you're traveling light, not tied down to this world, you know, like the Indian guy on the H1 visa who has the mortgage on the house you are renting. Can you paint the walls? Nope. Will he fix the water filter? Sure sure - he'll get to it. But he may change his plans you know, so you might have to move. Long-term stability? Hey Jesus never owned property - he was just thankful and moved where he could when he could.
All this so that the Way does not have to change something that they have previously taught on the topic.
So my friend I am sorry for such a long answer to a short question. But it kind of gives a little perspective.
So to answer that question, one thing that would have to be answered first is "what kind of questions emanating from the flock would be in the category of that requiring "further research"? We have already established that the Way has no personnel in their Research Department as full-time personnel. The Way is not actively pursuing "further research" on their own without any outside impetus that would be in the category of updating or changing anything they taught. Mostly research in the Way is governed by Way Publications, which is Rozilla's baby. They are concerned with what Ralph Waldo Emerson calls "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", from his essay on Self-Reliance. This means that what is of most interest is that what is put out currently matches what was put out previously especially in key areas of concern. This is primarily driven by who dictates Way strategy in these items, that being legal advice - and most especially Rozilla's relationship with one Louis C0lumb0. That influence on all the lawsuit defenses dictated the strategy that followed. Limit legal exposure by maintaining the same doctrine. Change in longtime doctrine and rules opens legal exposure.
So again what question would trigger research? The only one I am aware of in a few decades is that over the topic of debt. That one has had the flock in arms for decades. People have phoned in, written in, researched in, adviced in, and sacrificed their ministry careers in for quite some time over this topic. People have lovingly presented an opposing opinion to the Board of D's straight from scripture and common sense, only to be blackballed, put on probation, dropped, and shunned. You know, all that stuff the new loving ministry doesn't do any more, right?
The latest twisted logic on this is that now the Way has two distinctions for fellowship coordinators - one a Household Fellowship Coordinator - the title reserved for someone that they Way considers "out of debt". Then they have the distinction of "Bible Study coordinator" - this one is someone who the way considers "in debt". I guess the logic there is that someone could study the Bible, but not really have "full fellowship" because of this debt consideration.
Next, what does the Way consider "in debt"? This gets down into Pharisaical divisions such as whether or not a person has leased a car or purchased a car on a car loan. The former is considered by the Way "out of debt", while the latter is considered "in debt", thus subject to denigrating or less entitled labels, restrictions from certain classes such as the advanced class, and restrictions from leadership programs or outreach programs such as Way Disciples or the Way Corps. A home mortgage is considered "in debt". Thus, none of the field leadership in the Way would be able to purchase a home without the cash to do so up front. Well that's not totally true. They have this thing that's like an "entitlement exception" Apparently if you have some form of a relative who can put your mortgage in their name, then the Way does not consider you "in debt". You know, the Bible teaches against that, but that's irrelevant, right? We're going for that foolish consistency.
So - Way signature for success - car LEASE, home LEASE, or mortgage in relative's name. Hey you're traveling light, not tied down to this world, you know, like the Indian guy on the H1 visa who has the mortgage on the house you are renting. Can you paint the walls? Nope. Will he fix the water filter? Sure sure - he'll get to it. But he may change his plans you know, so you might have to move. Long-term stability? Hey Jesus never owned property - he was just thankful and moved where he could when he could.
All this so that the Way does not have to change something that they have previously taught on the topic.
So my friend I am sorry for such a long answer to a short question. But it kind of gives a little perspective.
are you kidding?! I love your long answer ! thanks, Chockfull !
The debt thing really should be completely changed. TWI doesn't teach proper budgeting skills - when I was in rez we all had to write down what we spent our monthly pocket money on, and it was scrutinised when we got our next pocket money. But budgeting skills and forward planning, as such, weren't taught.
I contrast that with what churches here are doing to help people learn about finances, and get out of debt. No beating with cudgels, no condemnation, but instead good solid advice and help. Contact with creditors too, to get them to hold off with their intimidating letters and visits.
Just suppose: if TWI had taught budgeting skills and debt management, how much that skill base could have been taken into the community to help people learn to balance their budgets. It's not "research" as such, but it is practical help.
As to research, just think about the example of the "talents" (Mt 25:15 "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.")
So what's this about? A rich man gives money to three people. First, he checks out their ability to handle money.
Next, he gives them an appropriate loan.
Then, the borrowers go out and invest the money in their businesses, etc - v.16 "The servant who had received five talents went and put them to work, and gained five more. Likewise, the one with two talents gained two more."
Their lender, the boss, is very pleased with them: vv 21, 23: His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things."
The boss was kind enough to give some money to someone of uncertain ability. That character didn't do well, was frightened of the money and the boss, and didn't do anything with it. His boss/the lender calls him (v.26) "wicked and lazy". The boss/lender took his money away and increased the loan that he made to more proficient borrowers.
No note, of course (as it's a parable), that the more proficient borrowers took up bigger loan offers.
Yes, of course this is teaching about other abilities than just the ability to take care of finances - it teaches about using our spiritual abilities and other talents, skills and abilities, too. Like it or not, we do understand and use money. We can utilise what it can buy to increase and build benefit, or we can freak out and cringe when it comes our way.
There are other verses that speak about not borrowing and not lending but giving instead; and not being a guarantor. Those things need to be balanced. There's the famous verse about the love of money being the (in some versions, "a") root of all evil. We should not "love" money, but we do need to use money, so why not teach how to use money responsibly? And if that means borrowing on a well worked out and realistic budget, so be it.
Now that could be a great area for TWI to "research" so as to give good practical teaching. Heck, it could even make them richer, too. More 10% and 15% coming their way.
I don't think it was the greatness of the research emanating (or, rather, being copied and redistributed) from New Knoxville. For me, it was the logic of the fundamentalist approach as described (by Bullinger and then distributed) by VPW. The keys to research made sense to me, and the proclamation that, if TWI teaching was found to be inaccurate, it would be changed. There was even a minor change in the teaching about "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" to demonstrate TWI's dedication to research.
Of course, when anyone used the keys to show that some TWI doctrine was bunk, he was castigated as unknowledgeable, compared to the Great Vic.
I was on the receiving end of THAT discussion, a number of times, before I was finally cast out into the light.
George
George, using your brain was a big problem in TWI; God forbid you challenge any TWI teaching. I wish I had been cast out; I wasted 10 years of my life in TWI, before using my brain, and leaving.
So to answer that question, one thing that would have to be answered first is "what kind of questions emanating from the flock would be in the category of that requiring "further research"? We have already established that the Way has no personnel in their Research Department as full-time personnel. The Way is not actively pursuing "further research" on their own without any outside impetus that would be in the category of updating or changing anything they taught. Mostly research in the Way is governed by Way Publications, which is Rozilla's baby. They are concerned with what Ralph Waldo Emerson calls "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", from his essay on Self-Reliance. This means that what is of most interest is that what is put out currently matches what was put out previously especially in key areas of concern. This is primarily driven by who dictates Way strategy in these items, that being legal advice - and most especially Rozilla's relationship with one Louis C0lumb0. That influence on all the lawsuit defenses dictated the strategy that followed. Limit legal exposure by maintaining the same doctrine. Change in longtime doctrine and rules opens legal exposure.
So again what question would trigger research? The only one I am aware of in a few decades is that over the topic of debt. That one has had the flock in arms for decades. People have phoned in, written in, researched in, adviced in, and sacrificed their ministry careers in for quite some time over this topic. People have lovingly presented an opposing opinion to the Board of D's straight from scripture and common sense, only to be blackballed, put on probation, dropped, and shunned. You know, all that stuff the new loving ministry doesn't do any more, right?
The latest twisted logic on this is that now the Way has two distinctions for fellowship coordinators - one a Household Fellowship Coordinator - the title reserved for someone that they Way considers "out of debt". Then they have the distinction of "Bible Study coordinator" - this one is someone who the way considers "in debt". I guess the logic there is that someone could study the Bible, but not really have "full fellowship" because of this debt consideration.
Next, what does the Way consider "in debt"? This gets down into Pharisaical divisions such as whether or not a person has leased a car or purchased a car on a car loan. The former is considered by the Way "out of debt", while the latter is considered "in debt", thus subject to denigrating or less entitled labels, restrictions from certain classes such as the advanced class, and restrictions from leadership programs or outreach programs such as Way Disciples or the Way Corps. A home mortgage is considered "in debt". Thus, none of the field leadership in the Way would be able to purchase a home without the cash to do so up front. Well that's not totally true. They have this thing that's like an "entitlement exception" Apparently if you have some form of a relative who can put your mortgage in their name, then the Way does not consider you "in debt". You know, the Bible teaches against that, but that's irrelevant, right? We're going for that foolish consistency.
So - Way signature for success - car LEASE, home LEASE, or mortgage in relative's name. Hey you're traveling light, not tied down to this world, you know, like the Indian guy on the H1 visa who has the mortgage on the house you are renting. Can you paint the walls? Nope. Will he fix the water filter? Sure sure - he'll get to it. But he may change his plans you know, so you might have to move. Long-term stability? Hey Jesus never owned property - he was just thankful and moved where he could when he could.
All this so that the Way does not have to change something that they have previously taught on the topic.
So my friend I am sorry for such a long answer to a short question. But it kind of gives a little perspective.
Chock, great post!! Now, I understand TWI's position on debt; thanks for the information. Personally, I think it's no one's business, but mine, if I have debts or not. That is very private information, that I do not share with anyone. I guess it's a good thing that I am no longer involved with TWI; they might have cast me out, for not sharing this information. Too bad!!
Yeah thinking some more about Chockfull & Twinky posts - I must say “great” research TWI - “studying” an ancient culture’s economical system as a basis for modern day financial strategy..
I’m not a financial wizard or anything - not crazy about going into debt either - but my wife and I don’t live beyond our means - it’s the way things work in the real world - to buy a home, further your education, start a business - sometimes people need loans.
Yeah, this is one bit of TWI’s “research” that I think has a hidden agenda behind it. And I think it’s financial hobbling - it’s my opinion their intent is to keep followers strapped for money to prevent them from straying from their influence. Really it’s a twofold exploitation:
1. send a generous portion of your hard earned money to them
AND
2. don’t get tied up in anything that will keep you from putting the ministry first.
I once left a job because the boss would not take me off the on-call roster - it was interfering with my responsibilities as a Twig coordinator, don’t cha know!
I think if someone can exert a major influence in your decision-making process over money matters - they more or less can determine where you will live, what you will do for work, how far you’ll go career-wise, the quality of your health, how many kids you’ll want to have , where your kids will go to school, etc.
Funny...what happened to the “increases prosperity” claim on the back of the green PFAL sign up card? I guess their “research” found some changes were in order.
So the Way did put out a tape class called Keys to Financial LIberty wherein G@ry Fr3d3rick teaches things like net worth, budgeting, tracking finances, recovering from a hardship, retirement planning.
The problem the Way has is not in being able to put out Dave Ramsey like materials which they can do fine, it is in the overt control, manipulation, and overstepping of boundaries in their policies and interactions with followers. The Way has boundary problems. Why? Because the Way is a cult.
Functionally, the Way operates on "It Is Policy" over "It Is Written" and has forever. The position of the person saying it in the Way is much more important than what it is that is being said. Yet, every once in a while a person in very high authority in the Way can just wax reflective and say "The Bible teaches us this" in a soft voice to back off all critics of a Pharisaic policy.
In a Pharisaic society, the financial liberty really only goes to the top Pharisees. Everyone else gets a cool idea while money flows upward.
So the Way did put out a tape class called Keys to Financial LIberty wherein G@ry Fr3d3rick teaches things like net worth, budgeting, tracking finances, recovering from a hardship, retirement planning.
The problem the Way has is not in being able to put out Dave Ramsey like materials which they can do fine, it is in the overt control, manipulation, and overstepping of boundaries in their policies and interactions with followers. The Way has boundary problems. Why? Because the Way is a cult.
Functionally, the Way operates on "It Is Policy" over "It Is Written" and has forever. The position of the person saying it in the Way is much more important than what it is that is being said. Yet, every once in a while a person in very high authority in the Way can just wax reflective and say "The Bible teaches us this" in a soft voice to back off all critics of a Pharisaic policy.
In a Pharisaic society, the financial liberty really only goes to the top Pharisees. Everyone else gets a cool idea while money flows upward.
Yeah.......and a large gift/inheritance from the wife's side of the family sure boosts one's lifestyle, too. LOL
In 1980.....after just graduating from the 8th corps, gary and patricia go on hq-staff, buy a house in st. marys [no mortgage ??] and gary drove a shiny bmw. To their credit, they don't flash their lifestyle around......but clearly, they were not in the "same neighborhood" as us other staffers.
Ever notice.......those with money hung in the same circle of friends? You know, those families that have pictures of yearly trips to Vail or Steamboat, Colorado to ski for a week. A series of pictures of the whole family decked in the finest ski jackets and/or wining and dining at exclusive restaurants.
Wierwille and twi always gave preferential treatment to those with money ties.......lynns, moneyhands, and others.
So, yeah........it ain't all that hard "to budget" when your parents gift you with a million or two (before you even have the firstborn).
Yeah.......and a large gift/inheritance from the wife's side of the family sure boosts one's lifestyle, too. LOL
In 1980.....after just graduating from the 8th corps, gary and patricia go on hq-staff, buy a house in st. marys [no mortgage ??] and gary drove a shiny bmw. To their credit, they don't flash their lifestyle around......but clearly, they were not in the "same neighborhood" as us other staffers.
Ever notice.......those with money hung in the same circle of friends? You know, those families that have pictures of yearly trips to Vail or Steamboat, Colorado to ski for a week. A series of pictures of the whole family decked in the finest ski jackets and/or wining and dining at exclusive restaurants.
Wierwille and twi always gave preferential treatment to those with money ties.......lynns, moneyhands, and others.
So, yeah........it ain't all that hard "to budget" when your parents gift you with a million or two (before you even have the firstborn).
The Way and VPW never did original research, just plagarize Bullinger, Kenyon, Lamsa, Pillai, etc.and pass it off as novel. Wonder if Wierwille did that in school?
The Way and VPW never did original research, just plagarize Bullinger, Kenyon, Lamsa, Pillai, etc.and pass it off as novel. Wonder if Wierwille did that in school?
Yeah.......and a large gift/inheritance from the wife's side of the family sure boosts one's lifestyle, too. LOL
In 1980.....after just graduating from the 8th corps, gary and patricia go on hq-staff, buy a house in st. marys [no mortgage ??] and gary drove a shiny bmw. To their credit, they don't flash their lifestyle around......but clearly, they were not in the "same neighborhood" as us other staffers.
Ever notice.......those with money hung in the same circle of friends? You know, those families that have pictures of yearly trips to Vail or Steamboat, Colorado to ski for a week. A series of pictures of the whole family decked in the finest ski jackets and/or wining and dining at exclusive restaurants.
Wierwille and twi always gave preferential treatment to those with money ties.......lynns, moneyhands, and others.
So, yeah........it ain't all that hard "to budget" when your parents gift you with a million or two (before you even have the firstborn).
Money and privilege in the Way would be a whole case study in and of itself.
Those with blue blood money write their own ticket in the Way just like they do anywhere else....
Didn't know those details about G@ry, but not surprising that the Way would front a trust fund baby to put that out....
Money and privilege in the Way would be a whole case study in and of itself.
Those with blue blood money write their own ticket in the Way just like they do anywhere else....
Didn't know those details about G@ry, but not surprising that the Way would front a trust fund baby to put that out....
Yeah.....a whole case study would unveil how twi was always grabbing for the coattails of money, privilege and reputation.
Money..............lynn sr. and gifting that big, limb home in Indianapolis to twi.
Money..............reahards building that home in the way woods
Privilege/Fame........Irving Fryar, professional football player......or that woman tennis professional......or that amazing rodeo clown
Reputation........Dr. Carolyn Rawl1ns who had delivered some 20,000 babies BEFORE taking pfal......
Money/privilege/fame/reputation..............ALL before taking pfal.
Yet.........wierwille/twi were "glory-grabbers" trying to make it look like pfal CHANGED everything.............pppfffffffftttttttt.
And then, there were people like gary and patricia. If I remember correctly, patricia was an only child and her wealthy parents were from NY or NJ. Clearly because of family wealth, gary and patricia were able to move into a nice, three-bedroom home within a couple of months of graduating from the 8th corps. Nice home and furnishings......and a good environment to start one's family.
But.....I do chuckle a bit, in reading about that class "Keys to Financial Liberty wherein G@ry Fr3d3rick teaches things like net worth, budgeting, tracking finances, recovering from a hardship, retirement planning".......
I would think that many of us here on GSC could better teach the aspects of recovering from a hardship..........
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GeorgeStGeorge
I don't think it was the greatness of the research emanating (or, rather, being copied and redistributed) from New Knoxville. For me, it was the logic of the fundamentalist approach as described (by
T-Bone
Yeah thinking some more about Chockfull & Twinky posts - I must say “great” research TWI - “studying” an ancient culture’s economical system as a basis for modern day financial strategy.. I’m
skyrider
Yeah.......and a large gift/inheritance from the wife's side of the family sure boosts one's lifestyle, too. LOL In 1980.....after just graduating from the 8th corps, gary and patricia go on hq-
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Bolshevik
Make sure to distinguish between the words "research" and "research" (pronounced re-search).
As a workman of the Word, the first thing you need to know is that the work has been done. He built a bridge . . . and we crossed it . . . something . . so there's no need to research. Just re-search VPW's work. Anything else is a waste of time and resources, a distraction.
I personally find great pride in knowing someone else does work so I don't ever have to. One of the many benefits of being born again in The Word.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I don't think it was the greatness of the research emanating (or, rather, being copied and redistributed) from New Knoxville. For me, it was the logic of the fundamentalist approach as described (by Bullinger and then distributed) by VPW. The keys to research made sense to me, and the proclamation that, if TWI teaching was found to be inaccurate, it would be changed. There was even a minor change in the teaching about "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" to demonstrate TWI's dedication to research.
Of course, when anyone used the keys to show that some TWI doctrine was bunk, he was castigated as unknowledgeable, compared to the Great Vic.
I was on the receiving end of THAT discussion, a number of times, before I was finally cast out into the light.
George
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Twinky
Love that, GSG.
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T-Bone
Great points George !
I was looking up "research" on Grease Spot because I was thinking of that idea that TWI would change something that they taught if further research proved otherwise; I remember hearing that occasionally and thought well that's real impressive - they're after the truth even if they have to change their position on something...so other than the Eli Eli thing you mentioned - has there ever been any changes made ?
the sciences are not based on a pile of dusty old books with observations, data, theories and ideas etched in stone - I mean as tools, technologies, data acquisition improve - so does our picture of the cosmos.
we would never have any technological advances in any field if everyone was as closed-minded as TWI "research" folks - they don't even have a research department anymore or do they?
I tend to think the dangerous assumption on TWI's part is that there are no issues with their doctrine - or at least it's the assumption of the general public.
Edited by T-Bonemore thoughts
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chockfull
So to answer that question, one thing that would have to be answered first is "what kind of questions emanating from the flock would be in the category of that requiring "further research"? We have already established that the Way has no personnel in their Research Department as full-time personnel. The Way is not actively pursuing "further research" on their own without any outside impetus that would be in the category of updating or changing anything they taught. Mostly research in the Way is governed by Way Publications, which is Rozilla's baby. They are concerned with what Ralph Waldo Emerson calls "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", from his essay on Self-Reliance. This means that what is of most interest is that what is put out currently matches what was put out previously especially in key areas of concern. This is primarily driven by who dictates Way strategy in these items, that being legal advice - and most especially Rozilla's relationship with one Louis C0lumb0. That influence on all the lawsuit defenses dictated the strategy that followed. Limit legal exposure by maintaining the same doctrine. Change in longtime doctrine and rules opens legal exposure.
So again what question would trigger research? The only one I am aware of in a few decades is that over the topic of debt. That one has had the flock in arms for decades. People have phoned in, written in, researched in, adviced in, and sacrificed their ministry careers in for quite some time over this topic. People have lovingly presented an opposing opinion to the Board of D's straight from scripture and common sense, only to be blackballed, put on probation, dropped, and shunned. You know, all that stuff the new loving ministry doesn't do any more, right?
The latest twisted logic on this is that now the Way has two distinctions for fellowship coordinators - one a Household Fellowship Coordinator - the title reserved for someone that they Way considers "out of debt". Then they have the distinction of "Bible Study coordinator" - this one is someone who the way considers "in debt". I guess the logic there is that someone could study the Bible, but not really have "full fellowship" because of this debt consideration.
Next, what does the Way consider "in debt"? This gets down into Pharisaical divisions such as whether or not a person has leased a car or purchased a car on a car loan. The former is considered by the Way "out of debt", while the latter is considered "in debt", thus subject to denigrating or less entitled labels, restrictions from certain classes such as the advanced class, and restrictions from leadership programs or outreach programs such as Way Disciples or the Way Corps. A home mortgage is considered "in debt". Thus, none of the field leadership in the Way would be able to purchase a home without the cash to do so up front. Well that's not totally true. They have this thing that's like an "entitlement exception" Apparently if you have some form of a relative who can put your mortgage in their name, then the Way does not consider you "in debt". You know, the Bible teaches against that, but that's irrelevant, right? We're going for that foolish consistency.
So - Way signature for success - car LEASE, home LEASE, or mortgage in relative's name. Hey you're traveling light, not tied down to this world, you know, like the Indian guy on the H1 visa who has the mortgage on the house you are renting. Can you paint the walls? Nope. Will he fix the water filter? Sure sure - he'll get to it. But he may change his plans you know, so you might have to move. Long-term stability? Hey Jesus never owned property - he was just thankful and moved where he could when he could.
All this so that the Way does not have to change something that they have previously taught on the topic.
So my friend I am sorry for such a long answer to a short question. But it kind of gives a little perspective.
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T-Bone
are you kidding?! I love your long answer ! thanks, Chockfull !
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Twinky
The debt thing really should be completely changed. TWI doesn't teach proper budgeting skills - when I was in rez we all had to write down what we spent our monthly pocket money on, and it was scrutinised when we got our next pocket money. But budgeting skills and forward planning, as such, weren't taught.
I contrast that with what churches here are doing to help people learn about finances, and get out of debt. No beating with cudgels, no condemnation, but instead good solid advice and help. Contact with creditors too, to get them to hold off with their intimidating letters and visits.
Just suppose: if TWI had taught budgeting skills and debt management, how much that skill base could have been taken into the community to help people learn to balance their budgets. It's not "research" as such, but it is practical help.
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Twinky
As to research, just think about the example of the "talents" (Mt 25:15 "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.")
So what's this about? A rich man gives money to three people. First, he checks out their ability to handle money.
Next, he gives them an appropriate loan.
Then, the borrowers go out and invest the money in their businesses, etc - v.16 "The servant who had received five talents went and put them to work, and gained five more. Likewise, the one with two talents gained two more."
Their lender, the boss, is very pleased with them: vv 21, 23: His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things."
The boss was kind enough to give some money to someone of uncertain ability. That character didn't do well, was frightened of the money and the boss, and didn't do anything with it. His boss/the lender calls him (v.26) "wicked and lazy". The boss/lender took his money away and increased the loan that he made to more proficient borrowers.
No note, of course (as it's a parable), that the more proficient borrowers took up bigger loan offers.
Yes, of course this is teaching about other abilities than just the ability to take care of finances - it teaches about using our spiritual abilities and other talents, skills and abilities, too. Like it or not, we do understand and use money. We can utilise what it can buy to increase and build benefit, or we can freak out and cringe when it comes our way.
There are other verses that speak about not borrowing and not lending but giving instead; and not being a guarantor. Those things need to be balanced. There's the famous verse about the love of money being the (in some versions, "a") root of all evil. We should not "love" money, but we do need to use money, so why not teach how to use money responsibly? And if that means borrowing on a well worked out and realistic budget, so be it.
Now that could be a great area for TWI to "research" so as to give good practical teaching. Heck, it could even make them richer, too. More 10% and 15% coming their way.
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Grace Valerie Claire
George, using your brain was a big problem in TWI; God forbid you challenge any TWI teaching. I wish I had been cast out; I wasted 10 years of my life in TWI, before using my brain, and leaving.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, great post!! Now, I understand TWI's position on debt; thanks for the information. Personally, I think it's no one's business, but mine, if I have debts or not. That is very private information, that I do not share with anyone. I guess it's a good thing that I am no longer involved with TWI; they might have cast me out, for not sharing this information. Too bad!!
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T-Bone
Yeah thinking some more about Chockfull & Twinky posts - I must say “great” research TWI - “studying” an ancient culture’s economical system as a basis for modern day financial strategy..
I’m not a financial wizard or anything - not crazy about going into debt either - but my wife and I don’t live beyond our means - it’s the way things work in the real world - to buy a home, further your education, start a business - sometimes people need loans.
Yeah, this is one bit of TWI’s “research” that I think has a hidden agenda behind it. And I think it’s financial hobbling - it’s my opinion their intent is to keep followers strapped for money to prevent them from straying from their influence. Really it’s a twofold exploitation:
1. send a generous portion of your hard earned money to them
AND
2. don’t get tied up in anything that will keep you from putting the ministry first.
I once left a job because the boss would not take me off the on-call roster - it was interfering with my responsibilities as a Twig coordinator, don’t cha know!
I think if someone can exert a major influence in your decision-making process over money matters - they more or less can determine where you will live, what you will do for work, how far you’ll go career-wise, the quality of your health, how many kids you’ll want to have , where your kids will go to school, etc.
Funny...what happened to the “increases prosperity” claim on the back of the green PFAL sign up card? I guess their “research” found some changes were in order.
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chockfull
So the Way did put out a tape class called Keys to Financial LIberty wherein G@ry Fr3d3rick teaches things like net worth, budgeting, tracking finances, recovering from a hardship, retirement planning.
The problem the Way has is not in being able to put out Dave Ramsey like materials which they can do fine, it is in the overt control, manipulation, and overstepping of boundaries in their policies and interactions with followers. The Way has boundary problems. Why? Because the Way is a cult.
Functionally, the Way operates on "It Is Policy" over "It Is Written" and has forever. The position of the person saying it in the Way is much more important than what it is that is being said. Yet, every once in a while a person in very high authority in the Way can just wax reflective and say "The Bible teaches us this" in a soft voice to back off all critics of a Pharisaic policy.
In a Pharisaic society, the financial liberty really only goes to the top Pharisees. Everyone else gets a cool idea while money flows upward.
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Twinky
I never heard of that class. When did it run? When might it have been discontinued?
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, I have never heard of it either.
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skyrider
Yeah.......and a large gift/inheritance from the wife's side of the family sure boosts one's lifestyle, too. LOL
In 1980.....after just graduating from the 8th corps, gary and patricia go on hq-staff, buy a house in st. marys [no mortgage ??] and gary drove a shiny bmw. To their credit, they don't flash their lifestyle around......but clearly, they were not in the "same neighborhood" as us other staffers.
Ever notice.......those with money hung in the same circle of friends? You know, those families that have pictures of yearly trips to Vail or Steamboat, Colorado to ski for a week. A series of pictures of the whole family decked in the finest ski jackets and/or wining and dining at exclusive restaurants.
Wierwille and twi always gave preferential treatment to those with money ties.......lynns, moneyhands, and others.
So, yeah........it ain't all that hard "to budget" when your parents gift you with a million or two (before you even have the firstborn).
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky,
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
The Way and VPW never did original research, just plagarize Bullinger, Kenyon, Lamsa, Pillai, etc.and pass it off as novel. Wonder if Wierwille did that in school?
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Grace Valerie Claire
Thomas, good question! Does anyone know??
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chockfull
Money and privilege in the Way would be a whole case study in and of itself.
Those with blue blood money write their own ticket in the Way just like they do anywhere else....
Didn't know those details about G@ry, but not surprising that the Way would front a trust fund baby to put that out....
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skyrider
Yeah.....a whole case study would unveil how twi was always grabbing for the coattails of money, privilege and reputation.
Money/privilege/fame/reputation..............ALL before taking pfal.
Yet.........wierwille/twi were "glory-grabbers" trying to make it look like pfal CHANGED everything.............pppfffffffftttttttt.
And then, there were people like gary and patricia. If I remember correctly, patricia was an only child and her wealthy parents were from NY or NJ. Clearly because of family wealth, gary and patricia were able to move into a nice, three-bedroom home within a couple of months of graduating from the 8th corps. Nice home and furnishings......and a good environment to start one's family.
But.....I do chuckle a bit, in reading about that class "Keys to Financial Liberty wherein G@ry Fr3d3rick teaches things like net worth, budgeting, tracking finances, recovering from a hardship, retirement planning".......
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OldSkool
Im pretty sure i could teach a segment or two. Id call it "Recovering From TWI: What and What Not To Do."
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Grace Valerie Claire
OS, yes!! I think DWBH, Penworks, Sky, and some others would be great teachers for this "class."
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chockfull
Retired from that shizzle my brotha.....
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chockfull
Yes I'm sure we could - especially the part about the hardship imposed by the Way and leaving it.
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