When did Jesus Stop Being God?

[T-Bone]

(snip)

...I have to say that though I may not be fully "onside" in a church (ie, a "church home"), I'm comfortable, happy, feel cared for and supported....

(snip)

This resonated with me…Maybe it was a couple of years after leaving TWI; One day I was hanging out with a friend from work; we had common interests in several hobbies – I knew he went to a Baptist church - he was not cheesy religious nor did we discuss theology much – but he knew I was a Christian and he probably assumed we had many beliefs in common too.

….so out of the blue I decide to tell him about me leaving a religious group that believed Jesus Christ was not God. Thought I'd hit him with the Atomic Bomb right off the bat and see how he'd react – I figured if I was ever going to talk about my TWI experience with someone outside of crazy town - i might as well test the waters with a friend. Now mind you, I just threw that out there – for as yet I was still mulling over a lot of TWI doctrine and so I did not really give him an indication of which way I stood on the issue.

And to his credit the first thing he said to me was that he didn't think there would be someone at the pearly gates making sure only Trinitarians got in. We stayed friends and it was such a weight off my shoulders to talk about that and so many other things – that's some good healing – to feel that someone cares and is supportive as you sort things out. It's refreshing to meet someone like that instead of a person who would treat you like some recovering heresy-addict and take it upon themselves to make you their next fixer-upper project.

(edited for clarity - just so we're clear on that)

Edited April 6, 2016 by T-Bone

[Bolshevik]

Years ago, I announced to Wayfer family my non-belief in God. (Which, at that time, was kinda a big deal)

Their response?

"Yes, but, what do you think about The Trinity?"

The stance on The Trinity was more important that an actual belief in a God, to a Wayfer.

[shortfuse]

Years ago, I announced to Wayfer family my non-belief in God. (Which, at that time, was kinda a big deal)

Their response?

"Yes, but, what do you think about The Trinity?"

The stance on The Trinity was more important that an actual belief in a God, to a Wayfer.

Wow. That's kind of amazing.

When I left the Way Corps, I told all of the fellowship coordinators about my decision to do so, but left my reasons private unless someone asked for specifics. Some did, some didn't. Anyway, I'll always remember one response from a guy who was incredulous about my choice. He said, "What? Did you find out the dead are alive, or Jesus Christ really is God or something?" He just couldn't believe I would leave a group that had "the truth" like TWI. Really nice guy too, I'm still super fond of him. But that certainty about way doctrine was just so valuable to him.

[Bolshevik]

. . .. But that certainty about way doctrine was just so valuable to him.

Yeah wasn't trying to make a soap box of it, but it kinda stuck out in my mind as a . . ."um . . . wow . . the trinity? . . .um . . "

And yeah, maybe a side topic, but the "value" of the teachings. For all the talk of "truth", their logic, their knowledge . . . just masks, veils to insecurities and imperfections. Cult teachings are shields and armor.

Maybe each doctrine serves a hidden purpose to the individual, as well as the overlord. Know which doctrines are important to the individual, which they defend, and know more about them than you want to know.

[WordWolf]

Yeah wasn't trying to make a soap box of it, but it kinda stuck out in my mind as a . . ."um . . . wow . . the trinity? . . .um . . "

And yeah, maybe a side topic, but the "value" of the teachings. For all the talk of "truth", their logic, their knowledge . . . just masks, veils to insecurities and imperfections. Cult teachings are shields and armor.

Maybe each doctrine serves a hidden purpose to the individual, as well as the overlord. Know which doctrines are important to the individual, which they defend, and know more about them than you want to know.

The ones that define the organization become critical to those people whose identities are dependent upon that organization.

Know how it defines itself as different from the marketplace, and you know exactly which doctrines the so-called

"individuals" (drones) will value.

Years ago, I announced to Wayfer family my non-belief in God. (Which, at that time, was kinda a big deal)

Their response?

"Yes, but, what do you think about The Trinity?"

The stance on The Trinity was more important that an actual belief in a God, to a Wayfer.

They weren't really listening to what you were saying. They were hearing what they expected to hear,

and if you diverged from the script in their heads, they were unable to notice.

[Bolshevik]

The ones that define the organization become critical to those people whose identities are dependent upon that organization.

Know how it defines itself as different from the marketplace, and you know exactly which doctrines the so-called

"individuals" (drones) will value.

I'm assuming the marketplace, in the context of TWI, is a circa 1960s/1970s enviroment?

(I would be guessing here . . . Dead are Not Alive was written during a time seances were more popular?)

They weren't really listening to what you were saying. They were hearing what they expected to hear,

and if you diverged from the script in their heads, they were unable to notice.

Creepy.

Upon reflection, uncomfortable ideas come to mind.

[Bolshevik]

. . .

They weren't really listening to what you were saying. They were hearing what they expected to hear,

and if you diverged from the script in their heads, they were unable to notice.

Might also explain a Wayfer's knack for memory-loss.

[waysider]

(I would be guessing here . . . Dead are Not Alive was written during a time seances were more popular?)

More accurately, the works that were plagiarized to produce it were written at a time when seances were very popular.

[WordWolf]

(I would be guessing here . . . Dead are Not Alive was written during a time seances were more popular?)

More accurately, the works that were plagiarized to produce it were written at a time when seances were very popular.

Exactly.

It was ripped off of 2 of Bullinger's works, both with titles in the form of questions...

"The Rich Man and Lazarus-An Intermediate State?"

and "Saul and the Witch at Endor-Did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?"

vpw then "wrote" "Are the Dead Alive Now?" the only twi book with a question title.

So, Bullinger's books were timely in that respect. vpw's was a matter of "I now have enough text to

rip off to make a new book and claim I wrote this."

[TLC]

Exactly.

It was ripped off of 2 of Bullinger's works, both with titles in the form of questions...

"The Rich Man and Lazarus-An Intermediate State?"

and "Saul and the Witch at Endor-Did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?"

vpw then "wrote" "Are the Dead Alive Now?" the only twi book with a question title.

So, Bullinger's books were timely in that respect. vpw's was a matter of "I now have enough text to

rip off to make a new book and claim I wrote this."

Done sometime in the 50's, he actually considered it his most significant book.

(...perhaps he thought it to be his most original.)

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Totally plagiarized from Ethelbert and Welch! Done in the 60's.

Edited April 8, 2016 by DontWorryBeHappy

[WordWolf]

Done sometime in the 50's, he actually considered it his most significant book.

(...perhaps he thought it to be his most original.)

Quite a trick, since he heard of Bullinger in 1954 and the official chronology

"memorial" released in 1985 said that it was first published in 1967,

same year as the filming of pfal.

[TLC]

Done in the 60's.

Yes, of course. Lazy fingers and bad eyes aren't a good combination late at night. Thanks for the correction.

Totally plagiarized from Ethelbert and Welch!

No surprise, but I'm not as familiar with Welch's writings. (Nothing listed here caught my attention at first glance.)

My main point was that he thought it was his most significant work. I don't know... maybe he just had to work harder at extracting and compiling it from Bullinger.

[waysider]

ATDAN?

[chockfull]

Done sometime in the 50's, he actually considered it his most significant book.

(...perhaps he thought it to be his most original.)

A rich supply of unpublished EWB work that could be repackaged as completely new groundbreaking work? No doubt it was his greatest accomplishment.