There seems to be a date missing. It's the date that indicates when he took all his extraneous materials to the city dump (where the fire never ceases) and began to rely solely on God and the Bible for his spiritual enlightenment.
Yet, it does seem so sincere, (his resignation letter) I bet he found some clergyman's resignation from yesteryear :who_me:/> and he pawned it off as his own too. It still comes off like he was plagiarizing Peter in the epistles. The master magician using his master stroke with his pen.
Yet, it does seem so sincere, (his resignation letter) I bet he found some clergyman's resignation from yesteryear :who_me:/>/> and he pawned it off as his own too. It still comes off like he was plagiarizing Peter in the epistles. The master magician using his master stroke with his pen.
That's a real gem right there, I tells ya. A bonafide gem!
quote: And further......wierwille ADMITS that, oftentimes, he would take church congregants
to these conferences, classes, retreats, and events.
Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity? Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical? People who join cults aren't "brainwashed". Their previous churches weren't cutting it. VPs sure wasn't.
quote: And further......wierwille ADMITS that, oftentimes, he would take church congregants
to these conferences, classes, retreats, and events.
Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity? Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical? People who join cults aren't "brainwashed". Their previous churches weren't cutting it. VPs sure wasn't.
You know, johniam, there are broadly recognized ethics that go along with ordination. When a person accepts responsibility over a congregation that is associated with the denomination that ordained the person, it is not ethical for the person to draw members of the congregation away from their ties to the parent denomination. Wierwille drew members of his congregation away from the denomination that ordained him, to have them send their money directly to HIM, instead of to the denomination that was ALSO paying him.
Wierwille was not interested in how well the E&R was serving its people. He was interested in how well everyone could serve HIM ONLY with their money!
What Wierwille was doing was dishonest to his employers, and dishonest to the people who decided to follow him instead of their bona fide church. Wierwille has always been dishonest, from the beginning of TWI to the end of his involvement (R.I.P.).
You need to stop and think about the things you say, johniam.
quote: And further......wierwille ADMITS that, oftentimes, he would take church congregants
to these conferences, classes, retreats, and events.
Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity? Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical? People who join cults aren't "brainwashed". Their previous churches weren't cutting it. VPs sure wasn't.
Ok, let's see what's being completely re-written here.
No, nobody mentioned visiting a church a single time- these were the "regulars."
No, nobody mentioned "owning anyone"-but trying to get people to convert from
one group to another is a big deal. How do YOU feel when someone supposedly is
in the staff for your group, but quietly tries to get them to leave it and
join another? Right- double standard. It's fine if it's to JOIN your group,
to get them to LEAVE your group it's unprincipled. And no, I wouldn't buy it
for a second if you claimed you'd actually be fine with it. You'd yell.
Why didn't they fire vpw?
Speculating here, but they were probably nicer people than him, and considered
the consequences to a minister of firing him from his employment. Also, he
never announced "I'm looking for something to REPLACE your group and I'm trying
to take the congregation with me,"- he was quiet. Also, as an accomplished liar,
it's obvious he had a pious SPIN to tell people if he was caught.
"Oh, I want to bless this congregation more so they have more reason to stay,
so I keep looking." That's his style. So, they were slow to think he was just
in it for the paycheck, and he had ready answers that made him sound sincere.
Nice people are easier to con.
Nobody said his congregation was "brainwashed". He WAS trying to draw them
away and have them loyal to HIM and answerable to HIM EXCLUSIVELY, so call
that what you will. As for their previous church, it's always possible to
improve on something or at least add an interesting change of pace.
(A one-shot, interesting event isn't necessarily a bad thing, in and of
itself.) vpw, naturally, got people to show up partly by convincing them
they WERE "lacking" something in the congregation- and sold a few of them on
the idea that's what he was doing-looking for what they lacked. Looking
coldly at the facts and results shows he was looking for a MARKETABLE PRODUCT
and stopped when he found it- while saying something different. Once he had
Leonard's class to counterfeit and claim was his own, and Stiles' book to
counterfeit and claim was his own, the next time he did ANY real search was
to grab the hippies to get them to MARKET his counterfeit products.
vpw was NOT in it for the benefit of others- if you view his actions. If you
only go by his own press releases, however, that's all he ever wanted.
Few of us are that gullible now, but you're free to believe what you want.
"Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical?"
Who really knows? Just because they didn't get rid of him doesn't prove or disprove anything.
It sure begs a question or two. The first post makes it sound like VP spent the whole time joyriding on their dime and they didn't have a clue. How did he do that? Lots of unfilled in blanks here.
quote: "Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity?"
What? Who said that?
Who? How about any church whose main motivation is the love of money. Notice how quickly twi dropped off the cult radar AFTER VP died and twi subsequently lost all their people...their MONEY??? Nobody considers them a "dangerous cult" anymore except here.
Who? How about any church whose main motivation is the love of money. Notice how quickly twi dropped off the cult radar AFTER VP died and twi subsequently lost all their people...their MONEY??? Nobody considers them a "dangerous cult" anymore except here.
TWI seems to have dropped off the radar because the only presence they ever had was as a tiny blip. TWI did not lose "all" their people, as evidenced by even a cursory search of sources. Their money? Last I heard it was somewhere in the 50-60 million USD range. That's not a fortune in today's economy but it's still a lot of dough, especially when you consider that some of it came out of our wallets. Whether or not anyone considers them dangerous is irrelevant. What makes them dangerous is that their doctrinal DNA continues to influence peripheral organizations like SOWERS, TLTF and so on.
None of this, by the way, has anything to do with VPW's resignation letter. I'm just sayin'
It sure begs a question or two. The first post makes it sound like VP spent the whole time joyriding on their dime and they didn't have a clue. How did he do that? Lots of unfilled in blanks here.
Johniam......the first post says that? Go back and re-read the first post in this thread.
My first post highlighted wierwille's resignation letter and the "p.s. factor" that the
church consistory UNANIMOUSLY ACCEPTED his resignation on August 7, 1957.
Now, with regards to "VP spent the whole time joyriding on their dime".....
in my #5 post, I detailed FROM MRS. WIERWILLE'S BOOK her exact quote regarding vp's extensive
traveling and gave a specific timeline of his various trips. Thirteen years (13) on
E&R payroll [June 1944- August 7, 1957].......and Mrs. Wierwille highlights the E. Stanley Jones
Ashram, conferences, mission trips, camps, etc. that vpw attended to learn and apply what OTHERS
were doing.
With Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve......it is quite easy to see how wierwille
"cut-and-pasted" his conference/class ministry apparatus like SO MANY OTHERS were doing. Page 48
shows young victor at the very back of nearly 210 attendees of this E. Stanley Jones Ashram in
North Carolina.
Time after time after time......Mrs. Wierwille details how others were INSTRUCTING victor in his
early pastorate days. It just blows A WIDE HOLE in vpw's claim as "THE man of God" doctrine
that permeated the whole of twi.
But listen, johniam......I understand how truly upsetting this might be for someone
who has wrapped their whole life, theology and being into believing that twi was/is
"THE true household of God"......of which, anyone who has left the fold, is NOT.
Maybe that's why you struggle....attempting to prove, to yourself,
that you've NEVER LEFT TWI. In your mind, you are a "true believer."
But according to twi.....a "true believer" never leaves.
I've been loosely following the recent news event detailing the beating death of a 19 year old man who expressed a desire to leave his cult's fold. Here, in contrast, we have an incident in which a congregation "shook the hand" of a man who wanted to leave and symbolically said "Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya".
But listen, johniam......I understand how truly upsetting this might be for someone
who has wrapped their whole life, theology and being into believing that twi was/is
"THE true household of God"......of which, anyone who has left the fold, is NOT.
Maybe that's why you struggle....attempting to prove, to yourself,
that you've NEVER LEFT TWI. In your mind, you are a "true believer."
But according to twi.....a "true believer" never leaves.
You claim....you are right.
Twi claims...they are right.
Your struggle is not with greasespotters.
Your constant struggle is with twi.
Are you with them.....or against them?
That is the question.
This is a misrepresentation. You know this.
True household of God? Israel was the true household of God at times in the OT. When they were, they had the Red sea parted, manna from heaven, hornets assist them in battles, Jericho deleted, etc. When they weren't they went into captivity. I don't remember VP calling twi the "true household of God". Part of the body of Christ? Yes! Eligible for God to bare his mighty arm for us? Yes! He never said we were the only Christians.
Twi became the "denomination" they ridiculed. More and more rules God doesn't require. And what a 'coincidence' that the purges of 1994 left them with only people who made money. Maybe not rich, but consistent. They became too spiritually cool to bother with taking care of people who were in desperate need anymore. They practically admit this. Not an open door ministry anymore. Personally, I'd rather laugh with the "sinners" than cry with those "saints" any day.
I believe God was involved in twi. Still can be. The question for me is that: is God involved? Can he be? Not which man made group to point the finger at. We're all vanity, remember?
"I don't remember VP calling twi the "true household of God".
Apparently you're suffering from selective memory. That basic concept is scattered throughout the tapes, books, classes and various class materials. Why do you think Wierwille said you would never find the rightly divided word anywhere else like you would in The Way? What do you think all those teachings were about that differentiated between the household and the family? What did you think it meant in the Advanced Class when VP taught about needing to be in fellowship (with God and with the believers) to receive revelation? Why do you think he said your life would be a miserable failure if you ever left the fold? He must have stated some variation of that very idea literally hundreds of times.
On another note:
What's that got to do with the letter being discussed?
"I don't remember VP calling twi the "true household of God".
Apparently you're suffering from selective memory. That basic concept is scattered throughout the tapes, books, classes and various class materials. Why do you think Wierwille said you would never find the rightly divided word anywhere else like you would in The Way? What do you think all those teachings were about that differentiated between the household and the family? What did you think it meant in the Advanced Class when VP taught about needing to be in fellowship (with God and with the believers) to receive revelation? Why do you think he said your life would be a miserable failure if you ever left the fold? He must have stated some variation of that very idea literally hundreds of times.
I remember a lot of time spent on the distinction between "household" (TWI) and "family" (Christians, in general); but I think most of that was in the LCM years.
I remember a lot of time spent on the distinction between "household" (TWI) and "family" (Christians, in general); but I think most of that was in the LCM years.
George
I wasn't around for much of the LCM years. Most of my memories and experiences are from TWI#1. I took the class in 1972.
"I don't remember VP calling twi the "true household of God".
Apparently you're suffering from selective memory. That basic concept is scattered throughout the tapes, books, classes and various class materials. Why do you think Wierwille said you would never find the rightly divided word anywhere else like you would in The Way? What do you think all those teachings were about that differentiated between the household and the family? What did you think it meant in the Advanced Class when VP taught about needing to be in fellowship (with God and with the believers) to receive revelation? Why do you think he said your life would be a miserable failure if you ever left the fold? He must have stated some variation of that very idea literally hundreds of times.
EXACTLY. :eusa_clap:
Apparently, some have NEVER grasped the full essence of wierwille's ministry to the world.
The full impact of wierwille's inner-sanctum doctrine came INTO FULL VIEW
when wierwille called any corps or clergy who left twi as cop-outs.
What is NOT to grasp in this "line in the sand?" If you left twi,
you left the ONE TRUE HOUSEHOLD AND MINISTRY.
Remember......"The Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word." [vpw]
If you leave the twi-ministry......YOU leave "the word." Get it?
Apparently, some still have not thought this all thru.
There was NO GRAY AREA with the "wierwille doctrine"......either you were IN twi
or you were OUT. Do you wierwille-apologists REALLY THINK that wierwille would
approve of all the splinter groups??? Hell.....wierwille didn't even support
the fellow-laborer program because it had a command center that went to the Limb
leader, not hq.
I STILL get gawd-smacked that so many apologists STILL have not figured this out.
This did NOT start with LCM......this was wierwille, thru and thru.
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waysider
Note that in the upper right hand corner, Wierwille does, in fact, declare himself to be the recipient of a legitimate doctorate. (TH. D.)
It was 1957 and the falsehood had already been established.
(You do know he wasn't REALLY a Dr., don't you?)
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skyrider
In Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve
on page 214, (the page before vpw's resignation letter)
she states:
"In August Dr. Wierwille submitted his letter of resignation from St. Peter's Church
to go into the full-time research, teaching, and fellowship ministry of The Way as of
December 1957. Of course, there was also a pressured undercurrent from the hierarchy
of the denomination to do so since the publishing of The Dilemma of Foreign Missions
in India."
Several things surface:
1) Mrs. W states that "The Way, Inc." will official begin in December 1957.
2) Cleary, the October 1942 origin was obfuscation and deception.
3) Vpw was taking heat from church elders about his foreign missions pamphlet.
4) Seems like a resigning/firing backroom heated discussion was ALREADY A DONE DEAL
before vpw (Rhoda) typed the resignation letter with snarky P.S.
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WordWolf
If we pay attention to the timeline of events, we notice a few things.
A) There's been a few years, and SUPPOSEDLY the objections were PRIMARILY
over vpw's pamphlet about the foreign missions.
B) In the last 5 years preceding this letter, vpw had traveled a lot with
their church paying for it.
C) In the last 5 years preceding this letter, vpw continued to draw a
steady paycheck from their church.
D) In the last 5 years preceding this letter, vpw had copied Leonard's
class and been teaching it, claiming he originated it.
E) In the last 5 years preceding this letter, vpw had retyped Stiles'
Holy Spirit book and been selling it, claiming he originated it.
F) In the last 5 years, vpw had used "his" class and "his" book and set
up an independent ministry, answerable PERSONALLY to him and to
give 10% of their incomes to him.
G) THIS SAME YEAR,
the family farm was sold to twi and became their base of operations,
subject to renovations.
H) A few years later, vpw had been running large camping events on
campsites and then began moving first himself, then their summer schools,
to the farm, eventually moving camping events there about a decade later.
=================
Why were they so happy to see him go?
They were paying for a full-time pastor,
and had a part-time pastor who was spending at least 1/2 his time
on a side-job that was completely unconnected to them.
In fact, he was looking to empty their congregation and get everyone
to join his new group, if he could manage it.
Why WOULDN'T they be happy to see him go?
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skyrider
Ding, ding, ding......we have a winner!!
1)In June 1944....wierwille accepts new pastorate at St. Peter's in Van Wert
2)In July 1944....vpw heads to E. Stanley Jones Ashram in North Carolina
"Rev. Wierwille, ever since his seminary years, had gone to meetings anywhere in the United States
where he thought he might learn more about God and His Word and learn more about how to present His
Word more effectively to the spiritually hungry. He went to Christian conventions, revival meetings,
Pentecostal conferences, healing meetings, and family camps. If places were near enough, he would
take our family and other interested people. All of us went to meetings in Indiana, Michigan, and
Ohio whenever we knew of them, believing we'd learn something, which we always did." page 51, BATS
3)Summer of 1945....wierwille attended the Camp Farthest Out at Lake Koronis, Minnesota [p.56]
4)In Sept. 1948.....vpw made public appearances and began broadcast in Lima, OH
5)Thru the years....victor and harry spent lots of time hunting and fishing
6)In April 1951.....vpw headed to Honduras [two wks] to observe mission work
7)In June 1951......wierwille heads to Tulsa, OK for "The Divine Healing Convention"
"Rev. Stiles was able to answer all of Dr. Wierwille's perplexing questions and to help him
receive into manifestation holy spirit by speaking in tongues." [p.80]
ALL of these men, and conferences, camps and ministries.....TAUGHT wierwille.
ALL of those bloviating claims of wierwille being the "man of God"......pppffffttt.
AT LEAST.....by 1951, after Stiles and vpw writing "his" book on receiving holy spirit,
wierwille was DISTANCING HIMSELF from his pastoral duties [while on THEIR PAYROLL].
Ethically and biblically......wierwille was STEALING from his employer!!!
8)In January 1952.....inviting guest speakers to Van Wert Church [spiritual 40 club]
9)In February 1953....wierwille takes Rev. B.G. Leonard's class The Gifts of the Spirit
10)In June 1953.......vpw, dorothy, don and some church congregants take Leonard's class
Gee....I wonder how the Van Wert Church felt about THAT?!? :biglaugh:/>
11)In October 1953....wierwille teaches LEONARD'S CLASS in the basement of St. Peter's Church
12)By June 1954.......after meeting with Pillai, vpw begins serious preparation for India itinerary
Planning to be gone for EIGHT MONTHS (1955-1956)
And, by this time.......(imo) the church elders were thoroughly disgusted :asdf:/>
Obviously, there was UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT to get wierwille out of THEIR pulpit.
And, soon thereafter.....wierwille's name was STRICKEN from St. Peter's clergy registry.
.
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waysider
There seems to be a date missing. It's the date that indicates when he took all his extraneous materials to the city dump (where the fire never ceases) and began to rely solely on God and the Bible for his spiritual enlightenment.
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Human without the bean
Yet, it does seem so sincere, (his resignation letter) I bet he found some clergyman's resignation from yesteryear :who_me:/> and he pawned it off as his own too. It still comes off like he was plagiarizing Peter in the epistles. The master magician using his master stroke with his pen.
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waysider
That's a real gem right there, I tells ya. A bonafide gem!
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skyrider
The sausage-making of the mog......... :biglaugh:/>/> :biglaugh:/>/>
When I was a limb coordinator on twi's payroll, I wonder what twi would have thought
about me traveling to ALL KINDS of meetings, conferences, healing events in a 400-mile
radius and labeling it as "God was at work teaching me"........and still be in their
good graces? Still receiving a full paycheck no matter what?
And further......wierwille ADMITS that, oftentimes, he would take church congregants
to these conferences, classes, retreats, and events.
And further the further......I remember wierwille recapping his church/pastorate days
to us in-residence corps and ADMITTING that if he had it to do all over again, he would
HAVE TAKEN ALL of St. Peter's church congregants (to twi) if they wanted to go.
.
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johniam
quote: And further......wierwille ADMITS that, oftentimes, he would take church congregants
to these conferences, classes, retreats, and events.
Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity? Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical? People who join cults aren't "brainwashed". Their previous churches weren't cutting it. VPs sure wasn't.
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Steve Lortz
You know, johniam, there are broadly recognized ethics that go along with ordination. When a person accepts responsibility over a congregation that is associated with the denomination that ordained the person, it is not ethical for the person to draw members of the congregation away from their ties to the parent denomination. Wierwille drew members of his congregation away from the denomination that ordained him, to have them send their money directly to HIM, instead of to the denomination that was ALSO paying him.
Wierwille was not interested in how well the E&R was serving its people. He was interested in how well everyone could serve HIM ONLY with their money!
What Wierwille was doing was dishonest to his employers, and dishonest to the people who decided to follow him instead of their bona fide church. Wierwille has always been dishonest, from the beginning of TWI to the end of his involvement (R.I.P.).
You need to stop and think about the things you say, johniam.
Love,
Steve
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waysider
"Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity?"
What? Who said that?
"Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical?"
Who really knows? Just because they didn't get rid of him doesn't prove or disprove anything.
"People who join cults aren't "brainwashed"
Well, maybe not initially but long term exposure and adherence to the tenets of a cult can certainly alter one's thinking and behavior.
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skyrider
"Rev. Wierwille, ever since his seminary years, had gone to meetings anywhere in the United States
where he thought he might learn more about God and His Word and learn more about how to present His
Word more effectively to the spiritually hungry. He went to Christian conventions, revival meetings,
Pentecostal conferences, healing meetings, and family camps." page 51, BATS
Oh, that sounds so noble and gentle in its sanitized version.
TRANSLATION.....
1) Wierwille was just another seminary graduate looking for advancement.
2) Vpw could easily see that he was a piker compared to men like JE Stiles.
3) Notice that wierwille does NOT inquire thru denominational hierarchy.
4) Looking at off-beat tangents and opportunities fit wierwille's "style."
5) All his life, vpw seemed to be evasive, arrogant and an outlier.
6) Marriage to Dorothy was kept secret....not permitted for pre-seminary students.
7) Going against the rules and plagiarizing others were "opportunistic ventures."
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WordWolf
Ok, let's see what's being completely re-written here.
No, nobody mentioned visiting a church a single time- these were the "regulars."
No, nobody mentioned "owning anyone"-but trying to get people to convert from
one group to another is a big deal. How do YOU feel when someone supposedly is
in the staff for your group, but quietly tries to get them to leave it and
join another? Right- double standard. It's fine if it's to JOIN your group,
to get them to LEAVE your group it's unprincipled. And no, I wouldn't buy it
for a second if you claimed you'd actually be fine with it. You'd yell.
Why didn't they fire vpw?
Speculating here, but they were probably nicer people than him, and considered
the consequences to a minister of firing him from his employment. Also, he
never announced "I'm looking for something to REPLACE your group and I'm trying
to take the congregation with me,"- he was quiet. Also, as an accomplished liar,
it's obvious he had a pious SPIN to tell people if he was caught.
"Oh, I want to bless this congregation more so they have more reason to stay,
so I keep looking." That's his style. So, they were slow to think he was just
in it for the paycheck, and he had ready answers that made him sound sincere.
Nice people are easier to con.
Nobody said his congregation was "brainwashed". He WAS trying to draw them
away and have them loyal to HIM and answerable to HIM EXCLUSIVELY, so call
that what you will. As for their previous church, it's always possible to
improve on something or at least add an interesting change of pace.
(A one-shot, interesting event isn't necessarily a bad thing, in and of
itself.) vpw, naturally, got people to show up partly by convincing them
they WERE "lacking" something in the congregation- and sold a few of them on
the idea that's what he was doing-looking for what they lacked. Looking
coldly at the facts and results shows he was looking for a MARKETABLE PRODUCT
and stopped when he found it- while saying something different. Once he had
Leonard's class to counterfeit and claim was his own, and Stiles' book to
counterfeit and claim was his own, the next time he did ANY real search was
to grab the hippies to get them to MARKET his counterfeit products.
vpw was NOT in it for the benefit of others- if you view his actions. If you
only go by his own press releases, however, that's all he ever wanted.
Few of us are that gullible now, but you're free to believe what you want.
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WordWolf
He wanted to "get ahead" but always tried to skip putting in the work, in research
or anything else. He was a lightweight compared to Stiles- but was good at performing
so he could FAKE Stiles and just repeat what Stiles said and pretend he came up with it-
and that's exactly what he did. He used the denomination for a paycheck and a platform
(they gave him an initial audience and prestige as a pastor), but spent his actual
EFFORTS outside the hierarchy so he could find something separate. He wanted something
successful but separate so he could avoid both accountability and the need to split
the money and credit with anyone else- so that's what he did.
By his own admissions to the corps, he viewed ministry as a possible career path,
and approached it exactly that way- for money and a steady paycheck. He was perfectly
happy breaking the law and being unethical as long as he got away with it,
and came up with rationalizations as to why it was fine for him to do it but wrong
for everyone else. All of that's demonstrated by what he actually DID.
Naturally, if one wants to ignore what the man DID and only go by what he SAID he did,
one is free to do that. One would be a fool, but one if free to BE a fool.
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johniam
quote:
"Why didn't E&R church get rid of him sooner if what he was doing was so unethical?"
Who really knows? Just because they didn't get rid of him doesn't prove or disprove anything.
It sure begs a question or two. The first post makes it sound like VP spent the whole time joyriding on their dime and they didn't have a clue. How did he do that? Lots of unfilled in blanks here.
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johniam
quote: "Let me get this straight. If I attend any church ONE TIME, then they own my soul for eternity?"
What? Who said that?
Who? How about any church whose main motivation is the love of money. Notice how quickly twi dropped off the cult radar AFTER VP died and twi subsequently lost all their people...their MONEY??? Nobody considers them a "dangerous cult" anymore except here.
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waysider
TWI seems to have dropped off the radar because the only presence they ever had was as a tiny blip. TWI did not lose "all" their people, as evidenced by even a cursory search of sources. Their money? Last I heard it was somewhere in the 50-60 million USD range. That's not a fortune in today's economy but it's still a lot of dough, especially when you consider that some of it came out of our wallets. Whether or not anyone considers them dangerous is irrelevant. What makes them dangerous is that their doctrinal DNA continues to influence peripheral organizations like SOWERS, TLTF and so on.
None of this, by the way, has anything to do with VPW's resignation letter. I'm just sayin'
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skyrider
Johniam......the first post says that? Go back and re-read the first post in this thread.
My first post highlighted wierwille's resignation letter and the "p.s. factor" that the
church consistory UNANIMOUSLY ACCEPTED his resignation on August 7, 1957.
Now, with regards to "VP spent the whole time joyriding on their dime".....
in my #5 post, I detailed FROM MRS. WIERWILLE'S BOOK her exact quote regarding vp's extensive
traveling and gave a specific timeline of his various trips. Thirteen years (13) on
E&R payroll [June 1944- August 7, 1957].......and Mrs. Wierwille highlights the E. Stanley Jones
Ashram, conferences, mission trips, camps, etc. that vpw attended to learn and apply what OTHERS
were doing.
With Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve......it is quite easy to see how wierwille
"cut-and-pasted" his conference/class ministry apparatus like SO MANY OTHERS were doing. Page 48
shows young victor at the very back of nearly 210 attendees of this E. Stanley Jones Ashram in
North Carolina.
Time after time after time......Mrs. Wierwille details how others were INSTRUCTING victor in his
early pastorate days. It just blows A WIDE HOLE in vpw's claim as "THE man of God" doctrine
that permeated the whole of twi.
But listen, johniam......I understand how truly upsetting this might be for someone
who has wrapped their whole life, theology and being into believing that twi was/is
"THE true household of God"......of which, anyone who has left the fold, is NOT.
Maybe that's why you struggle....attempting to prove, to yourself,
that you've NEVER LEFT TWI. In your mind, you are a "true believer."
But according to twi.....a "true believer" never leaves.
You claim....you are right.
Twi claims...they are right.
Your struggle is not with greasespotters.
Your constant struggle is with twi.
Are you with them.....or against them?
That is the question.
.
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waysider
I've been loosely following the recent news event detailing the beating death of a 19 year old man who expressed a desire to leave his cult's fold. Here, in contrast, we have an incident in which a congregation "shook the hand" of a man who wanted to leave and symbolically said "Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya".
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johniam
quote:
But listen, johniam......I understand how truly upsetting this might be for someone
who has wrapped their whole life, theology and being into believing that twi was/is
"THE true household of God"......of which, anyone who has left the fold, is NOT.
Maybe that's why you struggle....attempting to prove, to yourself,
that you've NEVER LEFT TWI. In your mind, you are a "true believer."
But according to twi.....a "true believer" never leaves.
You claim....you are right.
Twi claims...they are right.
Your struggle is not with greasespotters.
Your constant struggle is with twi.
Are you with them.....or against them?
That is the question.
This is a misrepresentation. You know this.
True household of God? Israel was the true household of God at times in the OT. When they were, they had the Red sea parted, manna from heaven, hornets assist them in battles, Jericho deleted, etc. When they weren't they went into captivity. I don't remember VP calling twi the "true household of God". Part of the body of Christ? Yes! Eligible for God to bare his mighty arm for us? Yes! He never said we were the only Christians.
Twi became the "denomination" they ridiculed. More and more rules God doesn't require. And what a 'coincidence' that the purges of 1994 left them with only people who made money. Maybe not rich, but consistent. They became too spiritually cool to bother with taking care of people who were in desperate need anymore. They practically admit this. Not an open door ministry anymore. Personally, I'd rather laugh with the "sinners" than cry with those "saints" any day.
I believe God was involved in twi. Still can be. The question for me is that: is God involved? Can he be? Not which man made group to point the finger at. We're all vanity, remember?
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waysider
"I don't remember VP calling twi the "true household of God".
Apparently you're suffering from selective memory. That basic concept is scattered throughout the tapes, books, classes and various class materials. Why do you think Wierwille said you would never find the rightly divided word anywhere else like you would in The Way? What do you think all those teachings were about that differentiated between the household and the family? What did you think it meant in the Advanced Class when VP taught about needing to be in fellowship (with God and with the believers) to receive revelation? Why do you think he said your life would be a miserable failure if you ever left the fold? He must have stated some variation of that very idea literally hundreds of times.
On another note:
What's that got to do with the letter being discussed?
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GeorgeStGeorge
I remember a lot of time spent on the distinction between "household" (TWI) and "family" (Christians, in general); but I think most of that was in the LCM years.
George
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waysider
I wasn't around for much of the LCM years. Most of my memories and experiences are from TWI#1. I took the class in 1972.
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skyrider
EXACTLY.
:eusa_clap:
Apparently, some have NEVER grasped the full essence of wierwille's ministry to the world.
The full impact of wierwille's inner-sanctum doctrine came INTO FULL VIEW
when wierwille called any corps or clergy who left twi as cop-outs.
What is NOT to grasp in this "line in the sand?" If you left twi,
you left the ONE TRUE HOUSEHOLD AND MINISTRY.
Remember......"The Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word." [vpw]
If you leave the twi-ministry......YOU leave "the word." Get it?
Apparently, some still have not thought this all thru.
There was NO GRAY AREA with the "wierwille doctrine"......either you were IN twi
or you were OUT. Do you wierwille-apologists REALLY THINK that wierwille would
approve of all the splinter groups??? Hell.....wierwille didn't even support
the fellow-laborer program because it had a command center that went to the Limb
leader, not hq.
I STILL get gawd-smacked that so many apologists STILL have not figured this out.
This did NOT start with LCM......this was wierwille, thru and thru.
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