I was just thinking about this. Most organizations whether business or religion have an otganizational culture that defines them.
So what's the difference between an organizational culture and a cult?
CULTURE
CULT
When you've got that large of a portion of culture that is hidden from everyone's view, what do you have?
That's right spelling fans.
Some movies are cult classics.
The Way was not hidden. At least during the time I was there. Witnessing door to door in numerous states on the East Coast told me that. Later in Ohio, it was much more apparent the activities of the The Way were known.
The part of the culture hidden was not the outward part, but that which people testify of here, the elitist hidden culture of the Pharisees, how they use people and ruin lives, feeding their own lusts for sexual gratification and power over others.
You know what wouldnt surprise me? If Rosie all of a sudden puts the kibosh on some of the more openly displayed hidden lesbian relationships going on around hq and corpse. To whitewash the image, deny the hidden culture, distance herself from the past.
You know, put some more cult in culture, that kind of shizzle.
Like Blade Runner. One of the best cult classics of all time.
The Way was not hidden. At least during the time I was there. Witnessing door to door in numerous states on the East Coast told me that. Later in Ohio, it was much more apparent the activities of the The Way were known.
The Way did make it on to The Soup. I guess you could call that little number a cult classic.
You know what wouldnt surprise me? If Rosie all of a sudden puts the kibosh on some of the more openly displayed hidden lesbian relationships going on around hq and corpse. To whitewash the image, deny the hidden culture, distance herself from the past.
You know, put some more cult in culture, that kind of shizzle.
I wonder - - where were the homo relationships? It is fairly well known that there were lesbian relationships, but, I've never heard of the male relationships, although I imagine if there was one, there must have been the other. The forrid (thanks DWBH) spouted about them enough, so I wonder where they were? .
Cheeses haves cultures. The Way is pretty cheesy. So, yeah, I see a connection.
. . .
What exactly was ever a secret about The Way? Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about. At least since before I was born. Not acknowledging them as wrong was a choice by the followers in every fellowship. Does that make it a Culture of turning a blind eye?
"What exactly was ever a secret about The Way? Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about. At least since before I was born."
Being much younger than me, I can understand why it may seem that way to you. (I took the class as an adult in 1972.) Really, though, many of us didn't know much of what was going on behind the scenes. Sure, we would see this leader or that do things that appeared suspicious. Speaking for myself, I thought some of these shenanigans were one-off events. In fact, that's how LCM tried to play it off when he was exposed. I had no idea how widespread the problems were. And, you can't go playing snitch to the leadership just because you have a suspicion. I discussed that in another post, earlier today. (Just the Facts by Dana Fort/post #49)
These things were carefully hidden from the rank and file believers in local areas. It took participation in a training program, where you have to stay in character 24/7, for me to even get a glimpse of what was beginning to look fishy to me. And that was just a peek.
So, when you say "Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about.", I have to strongly disagree with you. Even as these posts appear, there is a remnant of the old-timers and some of their recruits who STILL refuse to accept the reality of it all.
"What exactly was ever a secret about The Way? Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about. At least since before I was born."
Being much younger than me, I can understand why it may seem that way to you. (I took the class as an adult in 1972.) Really, though, many of us didn't know much of what was going on behind the scenes. Sure, we would see this leader or that do things that appeared suspicious. Speaking for myself, I thought some of these shenanigans were one-off events. In fact, that's how LCM tried to play it off when he was exposed. I had no idea how widespread the problems were. And, you can't go playing snitch to the leadership just because you have a suspicion. I discussed that in another post, earlier today. (Just the Facts by Dana Fort/post #49)
These things were carefully hidden from the rank and file believers in local areas. It took participation in a training program, where you have to stay in character 24/7, for me to even get a glimpse of what was beginning to look fishy to me. And that was just a peek.
So, when you say "Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about.", I have to strongly disagree with you. Even as these posts appear, there is a remnant of the old-timers and some of their recruits who STILL refuse to accept the reality of it all.
I was just getting ready to type a similar reply, but Waysider responded first. Ditto.
One question, maybe I missed this, but when were you involved in TWI, Bolshevik?
I wonder - - where were the homo relationships? It is fairly well known that there were lesbian relationships, but, I've never heard of the male relationships, although I imagine if there was one, there must have been the other. The forrid (thanks DWBH) spouted about them enough, so I wonder where they were? .
Is it "fairly well known that there were lesbian relationships"? Donna and Rosie, certainly, and the two women living in the basement (one of whom claimed to have been delivered from lesbianism). Others? I don't know. I wasn't aware of any of that whilst I was in rez.
Craig spent months on Corps nights yelling about homos. Months! Months venting his "spiritual anger" upon us. And routing or outing males supposedly caught "in flagrante." Whether they really were or not, who knows. One of the men so "outed" had been very keen on me at one time (until that friendship got banned by LCM) and I got no sense that that man was other than interested in women. It was the standard departure slander, to say that a male was homosexual and a female was lesbian; I doubt most of it was true...maybe some were, but so many?
If there were so many homos/lesbians, what had happened to CP1 (in-depth spiritual perception and awareness) that either or both of VPW/LCM had let these people get in/these devil spirits infiltrate? (And don't give me that "fog years" junk).
Really, LCM was venting his anger and frustration at the way his wife was being stolen from him by Rosie. A bit of a change, the boot on the other foot - when he had stolen so many other men's wives. A taste of his own medicine - and he felt powerless to stop it. Serves him bloody well right.
If there were so many homos/lesbians, what had happened to CP1 (in-depth spiritual perception and awareness) that either or both of VPW/LCM had let these people get in/these devil spirits infiltrate? (And don't give me that "fog years" junk).
Really, LCM was venting his anger and frustration at the way his wife was being stolen from him by Rosie. A bit of a change, the boot on the other foot - when he had stolen so many other men's wives. A taste of his own medicine - and he felt powerless to stop it. Serves him bloody well right.
1) CP1 was complete BS.
2) I think you hit the nail squarely on the head about Loy's almost certain motivation for his homo rants. I say that piecing things together, NOT that I have been inside the creep's head.
Is it "fairly well known that there were lesbian relationships"? Donna and Rosie, certainly, and the two women living in the basement (one of whom claimed to have been delivered from lesbianism).
Of the two living in the basement, one was pushing for ordination. She would "out" other gay people and get them kicked out. This was all to keep the attention off themselves. One more example of hidden lifestyles, lust for power, and devastation in many lives intersecting. then there was that thread about d0nna's sister and the ge0rge girl living it up as a couple in the corpse chalet. I couldn't find it in search. I think there were several other corpse women like that. Not any men I don't think - if they were around they were really scared.
to me it's not even about the lifestyle is so horrible and ungodly and they should be stoned to death by redneck men. it's more the case of the murder committed to cover up the 7-11 robbery. a secret lifestyle combined with self preservation and a lust for power. cross one of the spiritual "elite" even slightly, and the wagging of the fingers and hands and poof they would disappear.
someone wants to fix the way? go resurrect all the dead bodies that have floated out from behind the captain's wake.
Craig spent months on Corps nights yelling about homos. Months! Months venting his "spiritual anger" upon us. And routing or outing males supposedly caught "in flagrante." Whether they really were or not, who knows. One of the men so "outed" had been very keen on me at one time (until that friendship got banned by LCM) and I got no sense that that man was other than interested in women. It was the standard departure slander, to say that a male was homosexual and a female was lesbian; I doubt most of it was true...maybe some were, but so many?
If there were so many homos/lesbians, what had happened to CP1 (in-depth spiritual perception and awareness) that either or both of VPW/LCM had let these people get in/these devil spirits infiltrate? (And don't give me that "fog years" junk).
Really, LCM was venting his anger and frustration at the way his wife was being stolen from him by Rosie. A bit of a change, the boot on the other foot - when he had stolen so many other men's wives. A taste of his own medicine - and he felt powerless to stop it. Serves him bloody well right.
Yes I believe you are right here. Severe overcompensation. He was cuckolded by a bisexual and went off the deep end. then exiled and kept under wraps through a free house and money.
So, when you say "Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about.", I have to strongly disagree with you. Even as these posts appear, there is a remnant of the old-timers and some of their recruits who STILL refuse to accept the reality of it all.
I see we disagree strongly somewhere, but I do not see clearly where.
I have watched many times, ever since I was a child, followers be told to their face what is going on. Matters and accusations would come up in fellowships and then laughed off. There's that delete button in their minds where memories are just not recalled.
I do not believe there are any secrets. Just positions that get more difficult and ridiculous to defend.
OK, now I see the discrepancy. We're talking about entirely different time periods and circumstances. As I said earlier, I became involved in 1972. I was already an adult. Because I was an adult, I immediately became involved in the mechanics of the ministry (ie: running a twig, setting up meeting places, lots of physical involvement.) I didn't grow up with it all around me. None of these things were evident at the local level at all. It wasn't until I availed myself of the 24/7 lifestyle of a training program that I began to see fragments of the things we are discussing here. And, it later took distancing myself from some of the Way dogma to begin to see things more clearly.
I know people who are involved with satellite type activity, though I no longer know anyone who is directly connected to the mothership. More than knowing and not caring I think they simply refuse to believe the reality of what happened. Complacency is a much different animal than denial.
OK, now I see the discrepancy. We're talking about entirely different time periods and circumstances. . . .
The 1970s and probably 60s/early 80s were always fresh topics, and loomed over fellowships going forward. It was/is folks from those days that are the bulk of TWI. That is the time TWI is always trying to bring people's minds back too?
I don't think this separation of time periods is quite so simple.
Yeah....this kind of stuff happens a lot on this forum.
1) Talking about totally different time periods, locations, and circumstances.
2) Someone comes along and states that...."matters and accusations would come in fellowships and laughed off."
3) This big, wide brushstroke that implicates everyone SHOULD KNOW.
4) Totally devoid of reality....and ALL the moving parts of twi involvement
5) And.....grew up in twi and "saw what was going on"
Even in 1986, when geer's paper came on the horizon, inrez corps and corps grads alike grappled with
the details of "what really was going on." This serial predatory stuff was NOT coming up in fellowships
and laughed off....it was A DEAD SERIOUS ACCUSATION THAT, USUALLY, ENGENDERED CONFRONTATION.
Sure.....martindale vehemently addressed the homo-infiltration stuff, but that was like 1994.
This implication that accusations came up and were laughed off is preposterous......certainly, not in
any fellowship that I ever attended. If it, indeed, ever happened.....it had to have been a very
isolated instance. But if someone wants to add more SPECIFICS to this claim.....and elucidate on
what they saw, what was going on, why leadership laughed it off.....it would help bolster such a claim.
Dude, do you even cult?
Cult followers are creepy people. If you don't know anything bad is going on behind the scenes, you're free behave as wayfers do? This mental tie to leadership's behavior. I understand it's a let down, since it's someone you look up too.
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Bolshevik
I took some political science course at a college in Ohio.
The topic came up about culture.
"The Way" came up.
The instructor ended the idea of "culture", quickly, and moved on.
Wonder what he really thought.
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Rocky
How big was the college?
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Bolshevik
*holds hands out about this big*
The one with the medical school.
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waysider
There are 8 of them with med. schools in Ohio.
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Bolshevik
Some movies are cult classics.
The Way was not hidden. At least during the time I was there. Witnessing door to door in numerous states on the East Coast told me that. Later in Ohio, it was much more apparent the activities of the The Way were known.
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chockfull
The part of the culture hidden was not the outward part, but that which people testify of here, the elitist hidden culture of the Pharisees, how they use people and ruin lives, feeding their own lusts for sexual gratification and power over others.
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chockfull
You know what wouldnt surprise me? If Rosie all of a sudden puts the kibosh on some of the more openly displayed hidden lesbian relationships going on around hq and corpse. To whitewash the image, deny the hidden culture, distance herself from the past.
You know, put some more cult in culture, that kind of shizzle.
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chockfull
Like Blade Runner. One of the best cult classics of all time.
The Way did make it on to The Soup. I guess you could call that little number a cult classic.
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waysider
Cheeses haves cultures. The Way is pretty cheesy. So, yeah, I see a connection.
(When "the big exodus" happened, would it be fair to say it was like someone cutting the cheese?)
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krys
I wonder - - where were the homo relationships? It is fairly well known that there were lesbian relationships, but, I've never heard of the male relationships, although I imagine if there was one, there must have been the other. The forrid (thanks DWBH) spouted about them enough, so I wonder where they were? .
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Bolshevik
What exactly was ever a secret about The Way? Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about. At least since before I was born. Not acknowledging them as wrong was a choice by the followers in every fellowship. Does that make it a Culture of turning a blind eye?
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waysider
"What exactly was ever a secret about The Way? Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about. At least since before I was born."
Being much younger than me, I can understand why it may seem that way to you. (I took the class as an adult in 1972.) Really, though, many of us didn't know much of what was going on behind the scenes. Sure, we would see this leader or that do things that appeared suspicious. Speaking for myself, I thought some of these shenanigans were one-off events. In fact, that's how LCM tried to play it off when he was exposed. I had no idea how widespread the problems were. And, you can't go playing snitch to the leadership just because you have a suspicion. I discussed that in another post, earlier today. (Just the Facts by Dana Fort/post #49)
These things were carefully hidden from the rank and file believers in local areas. It took participation in a training program, where you have to stay in character 24/7, for me to even get a glimpse of what was beginning to look fishy to me. And that was just a peek.
So, when you say "Any wrong-doings The Way did, the followers everywhere knew about.", I have to strongly disagree with you. Even as these posts appear, there is a remnant of the old-timers and some of their recruits who STILL refuse to accept the reality of it all.
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penworks
I was just getting ready to type a similar reply, but Waysider responded first. Ditto.
One question, maybe I missed this, but when were you involved in TWI, Bolshevik?
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chockfull
Hey Bolshevik,
Where did you ever find that picture of me? I'm the one in the middle looking cool with those glasses and that cane.
LOL.
I wish I would have known. Might have saved me a few years.
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Twinky
Is it "fairly well known that there were lesbian relationships"? Donna and Rosie, certainly, and the two women living in the basement (one of whom claimed to have been delivered from lesbianism). Others? I don't know. I wasn't aware of any of that whilst I was in rez.
Craig spent months on Corps nights yelling about homos. Months! Months venting his "spiritual anger" upon us. And routing or outing males supposedly caught "in flagrante." Whether they really were or not, who knows. One of the men so "outed" had been very keen on me at one time (until that friendship got banned by LCM) and I got no sense that that man was other than interested in women. It was the standard departure slander, to say that a male was homosexual and a female was lesbian; I doubt most of it was true...maybe some were, but so many?
If there were so many homos/lesbians, what had happened to CP1 (in-depth spiritual perception and awareness) that either or both of VPW/LCM had let these people get in/these devil spirits infiltrate? (And don't give me that "fog years" junk).
Really, LCM was venting his anger and frustration at the way his wife was being stolen from him by Rosie. A bit of a change, the boot on the other foot - when he had stolen so many other men's wives. A taste of his own medicine - and he felt powerless to stop it. Serves him bloody well right.
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Rocky
1) CP1 was complete BS.
2) I think you hit the nail squarely on the head about Loy's almost certain motivation for his homo rants. I say that piecing things together, NOT that I have been inside the creep's head.
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chockfull
Of the two living in the basement, one was pushing for ordination. She would "out" other gay people and get them kicked out. This was all to keep the attention off themselves. One more example of hidden lifestyles, lust for power, and devastation in many lives intersecting. then there was that thread about d0nna's sister and the ge0rge girl living it up as a couple in the corpse chalet. I couldn't find it in search. I think there were several other corpse women like that. Not any men I don't think - if they were around they were really scared.
to me it's not even about the lifestyle is so horrible and ungodly and they should be stoned to death by redneck men. it's more the case of the murder committed to cover up the 7-11 robbery. a secret lifestyle combined with self preservation and a lust for power. cross one of the spiritual "elite" even slightly, and the wagging of the fingers and hands and poof they would disappear.
someone wants to fix the way? go resurrect all the dead bodies that have floated out from behind the captain's wake.
Yes I believe you are right here. Severe overcompensation. He was cuckolded by a bisexual and went off the deep end. then exiled and kept under wraps through a free house and money.
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Bolshevik
80s, 90s, 00s, depending on how you define it. I still have family involved.
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Bolshevik
I see we disagree strongly somewhere, but I do not see clearly where.
I have watched many times, ever since I was a child, followers be told to their face what is going on. Matters and accusations would come up in fellowships and then laughed off. There's that delete button in their minds where memories are just not recalled.
I do not believe there are any secrets. Just positions that get more difficult and ridiculous to defend.
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waysider
OK, now I see the discrepancy. We're talking about entirely different time periods and circumstances. As I said earlier, I became involved in 1972. I was already an adult. Because I was an adult, I immediately became involved in the mechanics of the ministry (ie: running a twig, setting up meeting places, lots of physical involvement.) I didn't grow up with it all around me. None of these things were evident at the local level at all. It wasn't until I availed myself of the 24/7 lifestyle of a training program that I began to see fragments of the things we are discussing here. And, it later took distancing myself from some of the Way dogma to begin to see things more clearly.
I know people who are involved with satellite type activity, though I no longer know anyone who is directly connected to the mothership. More than knowing and not caring I think they simply refuse to believe the reality of what happened. Complacency is a much different animal than denial.
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skyrider
Yeah....this kind of stuff happens a lot on this forum.
1) Talking about totally different time periods, locations, and circumstances.
2) Someone comes along and states that...."matters and accusations would come in fellowships and laughed off."
3) This big, wide brushstroke that implicates everyone SHOULD KNOW.
4) Totally devoid of reality....and ALL the moving parts of twi involvement
5) And.....grew up in twi and "saw what was going on"
Even in 1986, when geer's paper came on the horizon, inrez corps and corps grads alike grappled with
the details of "what really was going on." This serial predatory stuff was NOT coming up in fellowships
and laughed off....it was A DEAD SERIOUS ACCUSATION THAT, USUALLY, ENGENDERED CONFRONTATION.
Sure.....martindale vehemently addressed the homo-infiltration stuff, but that was like 1994.
This implication that accusations came up and were laughed off is preposterous......certainly, not in
any fellowship that I ever attended. If it, indeed, ever happened.....it had to have been a very
isolated instance. But if someone wants to add more SPECIFICS to this claim.....and elucidate on
what they saw, what was going on, why leadership laughed it off.....it would help bolster such a claim.
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Bolshevik
You're right. They were outright celebrated. I assume to further shield their stand with TWI.
Most of the folks in fellowships got involved in the 1970s.
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Bolshevik
The 1970s and probably 60s/early 80s were always fresh topics, and loomed over fellowships going forward. It was/is folks from those days that are the bulk of TWI. That is the time TWI is always trying to bring people's minds back too?
I don't think this separation of time periods is quite so simple.
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Bolshevik
Dude, do you even cult?
Cult followers are creepy people. If you don't know anything bad is going on behind the scenes, you're free behave as wayfers do? This mental tie to leadership's behavior. I understand it's a let down, since it's someone you look up too.
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