You realize he HAS to be counting people who have fled from him, CES, STFI, TTYL, LOL and whatever other acronyms they've conjured up since then, right?
He's counting me. I'm an atheist now.
He's probably counting Steve L. He's probably counting Tzaia. He's counting the thanks, and ignoring what happened later. You know, the results.
In my view, the inability of TWI offshoots, all taught the same principles at the same time by the same people using the same source material, to cohere on doctrine after leaving TWI is evidence that the task itself is flawed. Either the principles are no good or the source material isn't. (Or both, as I see it). You can't cohere on doctrine after TWI anymore than hundreds of denominations had been able to before TWI.
At some point you have to realize there IS no baby in the bathwater.
Back in the late-90s, when a dozen or so of us were beating feet away from John and his shipwrecks, it seemed to us that John's main problem was that he believed his own hype. In Biblical terms, "in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin." Proverbs 36:2 NIV. Not only can he NOT tell if he's right or wrong, he can't even care.
Back in the late-90s, when a dozen or so of us were beating feet away from John and his shipwrecks, it seemed to us that John's main problem was that he believed his own hype. In Biblical terms, "in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin." Proverbs 36:2 NIV. Not only can he NOT tell if he's right or wrong, he can't even care.
Love,
Steve
What a wonderful sentiment... the verse in Proverbs, that is.
Does anyone else find it sadly/comically ironic that this whole brewhaha is based on a premise that isn't even Biblical? (ie: dispensationalism)
When Wierwille bragged in PFAL about his brave, bold decision to take all his reference books out and burn them, he was discouraging us to look to ANY scholarship other than his own. If I had even a cursory familiarity with the treasure trove of things that have been written about the Bible by genuine scholars, I would have known that what Wierwille called "administrations" went out of fashion in reputable circles during the 1920s.
Lynn, Schoenheit, et alia, are teaching a "package" that was debunked before most of us were born. They mistake their obsolete conclusions for "the Living Truth" because they have no acquaintance whatsoever with the living community of biblical scholars. Genuine scholars have a fan club, you know. It's called the Society of Biblical Literature. Google it if you want to know more.
Speaking of garbage from TLFT, I watched this today
I was curious because of the title "This Present Evil Age" That phrase is a quote from Galatians 1:4, and the truth that Paul wrote it to describe the time in which we live completely destroys all the things Wierwille taught about his wonderful "Church Age, the Administration of the Grace of God."
You might want to sample a little bit of what Wassung is teaching, but I certainly wasn't able to make it through the whole 1:40:40 length. Not even close...
Shortly after the 5 minute mark, Wassung makes the following, revealing statement: "How come what we teach or how we present the Word is just blown off? I mean... we're sitting here trying to help people with the Word and trying to make their life a better place on earth, and yet we're just blown off. People don't want to hear the accuracy of the Word, as we want to call it, you know, or the simplicity of the Word, the great fabulous deliverance available by those who operate the manifestations... today I heard they just want to feel good..." His attempt to answer his question sputtered out incoherently.
The video has been up for about 50 days. There have been 378 views, five thmbs up, one thumb down. Was that thumb down YOU DontWorryBeHappy?
Maybe it's because "the accuracy of the Word, as we want to call it" is really a systematic theology, and people don't want to hear systematic theologies. They want to hear the Word of God.
Maybe people don't want to hear about "the great fabulous deliverance available by those who operate the manifestations" from people who are "sitting here" flapping their gums. Maybe they want to SEE deliverance delivered by people who are walking in the Spirit.
Maybe it's because the content of the 1:40:40 is best described by the technical term, "prattle." If you listen with one ear, it seems to make sense, but if you start parsing the sentences coming out of Wassung's mouth, they say nothing real, and lead nowhere in understanding.
Yes Steve! A "systematic theology" is exactly what it is. Only it's not very "systematic" at all because it jumps around all over the crazy, delusional "mind-picture" wierwille had of what "true Christianity" is supposed to be now as well as what it was when his voices told him it was first Godbreathed to Paul of Tarsus in the foist senchry. His mish-mash of re-interpreted Bullinger, Leonard, Stiles, Rinker, Kenyon, Chambers, Peale, Oral Roberts et al, is so clouded by booze and Aryanism, that even he lost track of what the hell he was saying. This became increasingly obvious the more vic removed himself from the "daily operations" of his Minus-tray. It became grotesquely obvious after da forehead's coronation. Vic's "retirement" to "Emeritus" status was so clearly idolatrous and mismanaged that it was becoming a sickenly tasteless embarrassment to any body else who saw the honest state of the mog. Cancer-ridden, strung out on codeine and booze and eventually Morphine and booze, just like his idol. So much so, that the very first "trip" on that asinine "twig-hopper", with one eye missing a belly full of Drambuie and Tylenol #3s, he ran himself and Dotsie right into a parked car some place, busting up that whole trip on it's inaugural coming out party. Cost a pretty penny in the first place let alone that repair job.
Wassung is nearly as deceptive and phony as Jalvis, his boss. Only difference is Wassung does have a degree in Syriac from somewhere real. But, his ordination was a jalvis spayshull, and not from any place noteworthy, not even twit. It's manufactured just like TLTF's "systematic theology" and custom-designed to fit jally's version of the Greek New Testament of the Bible. Wassung spent some time under Cummins and Schoenheit in twit's "research" dept. Besides his degree in Syriac, those are his ONLY "biblical research" credentials. Jalvis always needs a genuine "research team" guy, like vic, who could make up dang in the Greek or Aramaic to back up what faddah was teaching Ol' Dictor every minute of every day. At first, it was Schoenheit. But, eventually even Dr. John the Word-tripper, got sick of "Moggy John" the real leader and founder of their POS "ministry".. Wassung is just a more personable bulldangter than Schoenheit, and willing to go along with JAL for whatever personal irrational "benefit" he gets from doing so.
When I contacted Wassung personally earlier this year, he completely lied to me about his participation and role in jal's new roadshow. He said TLTF paid him for his "research", and that he had no current or active role in their "leadership". I've still got the e-mails Bob, so no need in lying yet again.
The Adminstrations in Scripture teachings of both Wierwille, and as taken "further" by TLTF, are bungled, dumbed-down Bullinger and Welch made less dumb-looking by schoenheit and lynn's decades of training in Biblical Research at the feet of the grand dragon of P.I. himself, dictor paul wierwille. They're not only antiquated, but between vic and his Boyz, their value as study aids and teaching tools has been completely butchered by vic's delusions and his Boyz' pseudo-intellectual biblical manure salad. And, Jal was equally dismissive of any question or post put up at their so-called discussion on their Youtube channel. Some poor guy named Ronnie G. Schofield posted something about preterism and and JAL publicly yelled at the guy and everything he wrote for being a complete waste of time". That is, before everything was deleted. All that discussion thread is over there is jalvis impressing himself on video and Sha-Na-Nandra's prepubescent "listening with a purpose questions". Nothing anyone but their own elders posted is still there! Now THAT's intellectual and academic confidence is it not?......LOL. Open and honest discussion too.
Guys like wrenn and lynn and panarello, and finnegan, and twit will teach where the money is. That's all they can do and all they've been doing since they started their various "ministries". That's all they know. That's how they trained themselves to be christian leaders and workers in areas of concern interest and need. As I've said before, when you've got nothing you can make up whatever you want to sell as another panacea to dealing with REALITY. Religious, hypermanic delusions still sell well.
So Wassung has had some training in Syriac. Was he involved with all the Aramaic hoo-hah that was going on at HQ in the late-'80s? Some people hold that the books of the New Testament were originally written in Aramaic and then translated into Greek. Was Wassung involved with THAT?
Wassung started out his Syriac studies at the university of Chicago under a Dr. Voobus, who was "all the rage" for twit's growing Aramaic Dept. Bruce Mahone and Dan McConnaughy both complete Masters' degrees under him. I believe Dan later went on to get a PhD. but from a different program. Wassung completed his Masters' in CA, at UCLA or USC. Marty McCrae who was one of the Promised Seed authors also started out at University of Chicago, but, after being banished and excommunicated from the 8th corpse for standing up to vic's intellectual bullying and publicly disagreeing with vic's P.I. re: JCOPS, he went on to a doctoral program at McGill University in Canada. Neither of those guys have anything to do with twit or cummins, or schoenheit, or geer, et al.
Wassung might have been involved in the late 80's, but I don't know since I left in '86. Either way, Wassung also has an Engineering degree from some place reputable and his "research" for TLTF and his service on their board of elders is his hobby, his leftover twit shared with jalvis and whoever else pays him I guess. I don't know if Wassung was involved in the Aramaic versus Greek originals debate. I know that a lot of those guys left during or after dem fawg years, but have no idea who left when and why. All I know is jalvis had the hots for one of Bob's sisters and spent a lot of effort and time trying to woo her to be his wog at CES during the late '90s. Luckily for her Lizzy Chavez filled that roll a couple of times now.
As far as Touchstone ever posting here again WordWolf, I doubt that will happen. So far, everywhere any of them has posted anything themselves, I seem to stumble upon them and get a chance to post stuff that has all since been deleted and I have been banned from every FB page and website at which they've got the power to do so. This last one on the End Times annual discussion they have on their YouTube channel called Justtruthit, was so blatantly prepubescent and intellectually vapid that I think even THEY were embarrassed by it. They've scrubbed them quite diligently so that zero discussion is left and it's all self-aggrandizing hype. Really amazingly immature and condescending at the same time. What a crew!
So, I doubt any of them will ever have the guts to say anything here again until their next crisis. Honestly though, unlike As The World Turns, their old faithful THOUSANDS has dwindled to to a couple of hundred. I think even the old time fans are getting ready to turn the channel on the jalvis soap operas they've been watching for 40 years in black and white in tiny little boxes just big enough for their God. They think somehow, first century religious thinking is relevant to 21st century christianity and world affairs. How sadly deluded for such an increasingly long time. Get some new charts please.
There are a lot of "systematic" methodologies for studying scripture. Every last one of them are designed to bring the student to a particular conclusion, which can only happen using that methodology; not to a conclusion which is self evident. That was the lie of PFAL and all the offshoots - that their method was the most honest and reliable for getting to the "truth". It truly is subjective. For instance, I started using the historical-critical method back in 2008 or so, and that's when I started losing any "faith" in the accuracy of the bible, or that it was god-breathed at all. I've determined that the bible is a complete hot mess if you look at it critically.
All the focus on "end times" is just another way of trying to explain why we live in the world we do, but what is particularly distressing about it is the focus on the utter destruction of the people who either haven't heard the "good news" or have rejected it. The notion that one who is "antichrist" is someone automatically evil and in need of eternal torment and burning just blows my mind now.
But they jump on that wagon with glee in that somehow they will be spared or rewarded in the eternal. I haven't noticed that a one of them has been spared ANYTHING and no one has been able to confirm the eternal rewards system. What I HAVE noticed in the here and now is a lot of division, broken relationships, and heartache over words written on paper.
I feel about the bible like I do hotel pools since taking a pool chemistry course. I avoid them because the people who take "care" of them generally don't have a clue.
Hello Jon Touchstone. Are you still with us here, or will we see you no more? I hope you stick around for awhile. You' the first Twustee that's ever posted more than once here at the GSC. I was looking forward to more good, substantive discussion. Are you coming back to at least finish up on this thread? Please advise. TY.
Well.....not surprisingly, Jon Touchstone has not appeared since I posted the previous post. Guess his "chief minister" got the revelation to dust off their feet from GSC once again. The "answers" to our questions were nowhere to be found. Genuine humbleness of mind was not displayed by either of the two TLTF Twustees who posted here. Just quotes of themselves and those who agree with their distorted, invented systematic theology regardless of what the Bible they idolize really says. They are chronically arrogant and self-centered. It's their way or the highway.
Jallymog even hijacked the name "CES" from those of us in MA who started up Christian Educational Services of MA in February 1987, while jally was still a fulltime employee of twit as limp coordinator of D.C. Sometime I'll tell you all what the vision of the rest of us who founded CES was for the outfit. It was NOT what you've seen and heard from those liars and deceivers who've been running it since 1988. It was just jally starting HIS MINISTRY again for himself and his own ego and financial greed. They paid themselves $106K a year salary, plus all expenses. They bought camp vision as their "Camp and HQ". They just sold it for over "$300K. Jenivee Schoenheit was the broker and the money was split between Gallagher and Schoenheit. No split for graesers and lynns. They got Lotsa ex-wayfers to pay for their high-life ministry during the 90's and early 2000s. What did they get for it? What is the legacy of these greatest ministries since the first century church? Ruined lives, disgraced and shamed "leadership" which defrocked and fired each other while sifting a ton of money from the suckers who were stuck on Wierwilleism and idolatry of Vic's versions of the bible and Bullinger, Stiles, Rinker, and Leonard. Jally continued his illicit, chronic, adulterous behavior without missing a step and got fired and defrocked for it by his own BOD. Never hear much from any of them about how they seduced people right back into their twit lite "ministry".
So, I doubt we'll ever see any of them here again. Their lies and dishonor have been exposed yet again. As long as there are fools eager to follow false heroes and keep giving them money to disgrace The Lord Jesus Christ with their anti-Christ teachings and practices. The cockroaches have scattered again when the lights went on. Vermin is as vermin does.
"... we think that zeal for truth, as it is called, is very suspicious except in men whose capacities and advantages, whose patient deliberation, and whose improvements in humility, mildness, and candor, give them a right to hope that their views are more just than those of their neighbours. Much of what passes for a zeal for truth we look upon with little respect, for it often appears to thrive most luxuriantly where other virtues shoot up thinly and feebly; and we have no gratitude for those reformers who would force upon us a doctrine which has not sweetened their own tempers or made them better men than their neighbours."
-- William Channing
It would be good for some on this site to consider this as they go about their Christian lives. Ridicule is not a fruit of the spirit.
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.
1 Peter 3:8-9
Jon, sounds like you're having a tough time learning to stay out of cults. That's too bad, because the devastation in your life won't show up until later.
I guess the lie of "exclusive truth" and a unique calling to protect it is like crack to the weak mind.
So to provide you with the charitable words of encouragement from Jesus you seem to so desire, run from that phony who is building and seeking out his next failed ministry like he has his marriages as fast as you can. Your sympathy towards his false humility is clouding your judgement.
Find the humblest least impressive church you can, get down on your knees, and ask God for forgiveness for letting your head fill with intellectual acrobatics in scripture that promote a denigrating and false view of fellow Christians and of Jesus himself.
Then you will break the cycle of ever learning yet never coming to the truth and the incessant lust for knowledge you try to pass off as being "zealous for the truth".
And let's not discount a good ole fashioned job as motive too. You know like in the OT how things got so bad they put people in a priests office for a morsel of bread. Just like TWI people's paycheck prevents too much introspection about truth as the truth would also mean finding another job
So.........nothing more from any TLTF twustees, eh? How disappointing! Just when it looked like there was a grain of credibility and honesty about to shute forth from the bowels of the TLTF twustees and jalvis puts the old kibosh on it. So John lynnish, no?
Can't teach an old dawg new dog and pony show tricks I guess.
The End Times Discussion they made such a huge deal about on their justtruthit YouTube channel was a complete disaster. In the final, edited/deleted/banned-in-60 countries version that now appears there, there is not one comment from any non-TLTF member on the entire week-long discussion thread! They've all been deleted except for the ones from TLTF "elders" like Don Culp, Don Chamberlain, Sha-Na-Nandra Higgins, Janice Erickson, and other TLTF "elders". Nice open discussion eh? None of the things "discussed" by anybody else except their own board of elders was left standing. Not even the rare personal appearances of jalvis himself were left. Too revealing you know. It basically came down to this is MY bible and no one knows it or teaches it better. That's it. Jalvis gets another cult to run into the ground of his own massive ego and greed.
At least Touchstone was dumb enough to actually post here where they can't delete, ban, edit, bury, obfuscate, and just plain trash any and all counterpoint like jalvis likes to do. Bet he won't be making that kind of mistake again eh Bottley and jalvis? Not if he wants to keep his minus-tray he won't. Jalvis don't take truth from nobody but his gawd, and his dead, water-logged faddah in da woid under the fountain. Guess touchstone knows that he knows that now.
Still planning on yet another version of pfal this spring, if the $$ holds up. They only needed about 40-50K for this version and, maybe they got that now? They were supposed to do all this last May, but ran short of $$ and the Producers were too sick at the time. But, now, by the grace of your prayers and checking accounts, they're still getting better, and god's gonna get the glory!!.......Er.....but......they keep the money.
So, as this year draws to a close, TLTF is still regurgitating the same old garbage in the same old twit-like manner. Dictor Paul and Jallyroll jalvis his son, are still re-doing the magic class and begging for money and motor coaches. Maybe 2016 will be the year jalvis returns to "full-time minus-tray"?? How does he support himself and pay his medical bills. His gawd is good I bet......and probably wealthy too. Even for phoney, tripped-out Christian "leaders". But, our heroes are stretching themselves as thin as possible to do all "the work" of their minus-tray so you'll cough up enough $$ to make them full-time to meet the needs they've worked so hard to create for all of their sycophants. A tiny speck of deranged humans clinging to their interpretation of the bible and each other as if they make a difference to any living creature besides themselves. The same old pathetic garbage jalvis. Starting to get a bit old'n'crusty jal. Really starting to smell too. Can't you guys at least clean up after yourselves??
Well, it's coming up on March. Jallyroll and his boyz have postponed their new world shattering jeeezus class again. Last May, to last June or July, to November, to March 2016 and now to May-June 2016. That's a year of postponing! Where's all the money going?? Or, are you just banking the $$ and telling the world you're still "workin' on it"? Buy your RV/Motorcoach yet? Check with Bo. He's got a nice one. Maybe he can hook ya up?
Or.....maybe those old wayfers are running outta $$?? If they've been giving to you fools it doesn't surprise me. No God of Jesus Christ to bless your phony gimme your money research and teaching. So? Which is your priority jallyboy? RV, full-time for jeeeezus, or another piffle redux? Decisions, decisions. How many ways can I waste other people's monies?? If anyone can, jallyboy can. You suckers giving him your dough?? You are giving a free ride for doing absolutely NOTHING! How do his classes heal or teach anybody? How do they "take the place of the absent Christ"? How do they do what Jesus Christ did? How do they feed the starving, clothe and shelter the destitute, touch the untouchable, love the broken and outcast? What does their "MINISTRY" actually DO to help people in real, tangible, material ways??? Post another 20 hour class on how to privately interpret the bible to start your own religious cult? How much $$ did TLTF send to those poor folks in the Phillipines who wrote desperate for help? How much did lynn, Bottley, and touchstone send??? Or, did they hit up you "big fish donors" to cough up their dough? Hypocrites! Whited sepulchers. Merchants of the innocent and slaves of your own lusts and greed. As if Lizzy Chavez's marriage to jallyboy somehow endued her with as much "power and accuracy" as her numbskull husband(for the second time). Gimme a break. I'd like to know the latest MLM she's hawking. It's a habit of her's you know. She really needs to be fulltime too doesn't she? We've got to spare the unsuspecting from Lizzy's MLM ministries! Please! Make them fulltime!!!
So, on this post-Valentine's Day update, I'd like to thank TLTF and its Board of Twustees for showing us how the love of money and obsession with oneself is what their minus-tray and they are all about. God bless you guys and your spiritual VD this February!
If there's ever been anyone anywhere who has ever kissed the blarney stone it's those jokers on the TLTF Board of Twustees. Allow me to demonstrate:
"As we survey the Christian landscape today, we strongly believe that TLTF has a vital mission to the Body of Christ, and to the world. I am being neither arrogant nor elitist nor exclusive by simply saying that I personally know of nowhere else on the planet where people can find the degree of the accuracy of God's Word they can find in our ministry. And honestly, I'm very sorry I don't. If you do, let me know. Furthermore, I can't believe there aren't at least amillion people across the world who would go wild if they got to hear the Word we share, and it never ceases to frustrate me that we aren't reaching more of them. But we will continue to do what we can, and pray that the Lord will lead us to those who want His Truth.
Jesus Christ was a total fanatic about the written Word of God, no doubt because he knew he would have to stake his future existence upon its accuracy and its veracity. Jesus realized the gruesome reality of death, knew that Satan (not God) was its author, and that rather than ushering him into the presence of God, it would instead terminate his precious life. He "sweat blood," as it were, as he approached the critical moment when he would lay down his life and forever after BE NO MORE unless his Father kept His promise to raise him out from among the dead. This month the Christian world celebrates the magnificent truth that God did exactly that.
Our Lord Jesus died for you and me so that we could now live for him. As we celebrate his RESURRECTION this month, let us determine to stand boldly upon the Truth that he loved and proclaimed."I love you.
What in the hell does "when we survey the Christian landscape" mean?? Jesus Art Appreciation 101? Is it a geographical location? Is it a private country where only "believers" are allowed?
As far as "the accuracy of God's word" goes, what the hell does that jargon mean? Sounds just like some other uneducated plagiarist i saw somewhere who called himself "the teacher". It's almost the same plagiarized garbage that vic wierwille used. The only difference is, they have more stuff they plagiarized than vic did, and their "original research" is even whackier and more destructive to humans than vic's was. The same old hackneyed piffle phrases and verses with the same old erroneous private interpretation. As far as any place on the planet that has as much of whatever "the accuracy" is, i can think of many landfills and garbage dumps that could use all that wasted paper, tape, dvd, and bytespace you guys overproduce every day. I'm sure there area few there in Indy with enough space for all your junk. And, I certainly have no problem at all believing there are not "at least a million people across the world" who buy you bible BS. I can't believe there are even a hundred dumb enough to send you hucksters money, But, P.T. Barnum was obviously right about how many of TLTF followers are born every minute. Your frustration is really obvious, but the facts are you haven't reached a fraction of the suckers vic did, and you've been on your own for longer than he was! GET OVER IT! SNAP OUT OF IT! No one outside your current little mind-numbed cult will ever give a rat's patoot about your "vital mission". There will never be a million who will ever hear about your puny cult. You're not "teaching" anything new or accurate. Your teaching a combo of Momentus, PFAL, B.G. Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class, J.E. Stiles, Glenn Clark, E.W.Bullinger, Kenyon, your Romans class is a plagiarism of Bullinger and Charles Welch, Prophetic Movement christian spiritualism, and JBS ideology. NO ONE CARES, least of all God and Jesus Christ.
One more thing......JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT A "FANATIC OF THE WRITTEN WORD"!......HE was and IS the WORD, not your foolish compilation of spurious ancient MS, or comparing all the texts with the various English versions of the Bible. He had none of your new testament to rightly divide. He IS The Word of God and The Will of God, not your stupid books and papers and texts and manuscripts. You idolize the paper pages of manmade books and attempt to take the place of your absent christ. You have exchanged The Living Lord with dead trees. You are false teachers and false prophets. You take the name of The Lord in vain by trying to sell YOUR interpretation of your "written word",.....even inventing your own "accuracy version" of it (calling it the REV, revised English version) and making merchandize of It and the flock.
Taken out of whatever context it appeared - if it had been in any kind of mainstream church newsletter, magazine, circular, bishop's letter or anything else - I'd be wondering what kind of arrogant, elitist, exclusive nutjob wrote it and how fast I could get outa there...
Lol, "it never ceases to frustrate me that we aren't reaching more of them" - has he ever considered why his efforts are frustrated? By whom?
Taken out of whatever context it appeared - if it had been in any kind of mainstream church newsletter, magazine, circular, bishop's letter or anything else - I'd be wondering what kind of arrogant, elitist, exclusive nutjob wrote it and how fast I could get outa there...
Lol, "it never ceases to frustrate me that we aren't reaching more of them" - has he ever considered why his efforts are frustrated? By whom?
I doubt it.
Perhaps extreme narcissism clouds his self-awareness.
The drivel is from their March 2016 official newsletter. Easter edition. It's kinda like the "road to nowhere" in Alaska.......a letter to nowhere......A monthly epistle from dippy to all the 10's of dipsters in his tiny cult. How pathetic. Neck-deep in the Big Muddy and the damn fool marches on.
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waysider
Can we get the condensed version?
DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Greasespotters! Here's the latest from everybody's favorite phony "Chief Minister", Jalvis, the all knowing and entertaining, greatest mog since the 20th Century! dictor paul wierwille himself wou
Tzaia
Steve Lortz
Back in the late-90s, when a dozen or so of us were beating feet away from John and his shipwrecks, it seemed to us that John's main problem was that he believed his own hype. In Biblical terms, "in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin." Proverbs 36:2 NIV. Not only can he NOT tell if he's right or wrong, he can't even care.
Love,
Steve
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Rocky
What a wonderful sentiment... the verse in Proverbs, that is.
I've been listening to Brene Brown on youtube lately. She's a research professor who studies shame and vulnerability.
Is it ever too late in a person's life to learn to be vulnerable? Can one actually minister powerfully if that person is not willing to be vulnerable?
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waysider
Does anyone else find it sadly/comically ironic that this whole brewhaha is based on a premise that isn't even Biblical? (ie: dispensationalism)
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Steve Lortz
When Wierwille bragged in PFAL about his brave, bold decision to take all his reference books out and burn them, he was discouraging us to look to ANY scholarship other than his own. If I had even a cursory familiarity with the treasure trove of things that have been written about the Bible by genuine scholars, I would have known that what Wierwille called "administrations" went out of fashion in reputable circles during the 1920s.
Lynn, Schoenheit, et alia, are teaching a "package" that was debunked before most of us were born. They mistake their obsolete conclusions for "the Living Truth" because they have no acquaintance whatsoever with the living community of biblical scholars. Genuine scholars have a fan club, you know. It's called the Society of Biblical Literature. Google it if you want to know more.
Speaking of garbage from TLFT, I watched this today
I was curious because of the title "This Present Evil Age" That phrase is a quote from Galatians 1:4, and the truth that Paul wrote it to describe the time in which we live completely destroys all the things Wierwille taught about his wonderful "Church Age, the Administration of the Grace of God."
You might want to sample a little bit of what Wassung is teaching, but I certainly wasn't able to make it through the whole 1:40:40 length. Not even close...
Shortly after the 5 minute mark, Wassung makes the following, revealing statement: "How come what we teach or how we present the Word is just blown off? I mean... we're sitting here trying to help people with the Word and trying to make their life a better place on earth, and yet we're just blown off. People don't want to hear the accuracy of the Word, as we want to call it, you know, or the simplicity of the Word, the great fabulous deliverance available by those who operate the manifestations... today I heard they just want to feel good..." His attempt to answer his question sputtered out incoherently.
The video has been up for about 50 days. There have been 378 views, five thmbs up, one thumb down. Was that thumb down YOU DontWorryBeHappy?
Maybe it's because "the accuracy of the Word, as we want to call it" is really a systematic theology, and people don't want to hear systematic theologies. They want to hear the Word of God.
Maybe people don't want to hear about "the great fabulous deliverance available by those who operate the manifestations" from people who are "sitting here" flapping their gums. Maybe they want to SEE deliverance delivered by people who are walking in the Spirit.
Maybe it's because the content of the 1:40:40 is best described by the technical term, "prattle." If you listen with one ear, it seems to make sense, but if you start parsing the sentences coming out of Wassung's mouth, they say nothing real, and lead nowhere in understanding.
All for now,
Love,
Steve
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DontWorryBeHappy
Yes Steve! A "systematic theology" is exactly what it is. Only it's not very "systematic" at all because it jumps around all over the crazy, delusional "mind-picture" wierwille had of what "true Christianity" is supposed to be now as well as what it was when his voices told him it was first Godbreathed to Paul of Tarsus in the foist senchry. His mish-mash of re-interpreted Bullinger, Leonard, Stiles, Rinker, Kenyon, Chambers, Peale, Oral Roberts et al, is so clouded by booze and Aryanism, that even he lost track of what the hell he was saying. This became increasingly obvious the more vic removed himself from the "daily operations" of his Minus-tray. It became grotesquely obvious after da forehead's coronation. Vic's "retirement" to "Emeritus" status was so clearly idolatrous and mismanaged that it was becoming a sickenly tasteless embarrassment to any body else who saw the honest state of the mog. Cancer-ridden, strung out on codeine and booze and eventually Morphine and booze, just like his idol. So much so, that the very first "trip" on that asinine "twig-hopper", with one eye missing a belly full of Drambuie and Tylenol #3s, he ran himself and Dotsie right into a parked car some place, busting up that whole trip on it's inaugural coming out party. Cost a pretty penny in the first place let alone that repair job.
Wassung is nearly as deceptive and phony as Jalvis, his boss. Only difference is Wassung does have a degree in Syriac from somewhere real. But, his ordination was a jalvis spayshull, and not from any place noteworthy, not even twit. It's manufactured just like TLTF's "systematic theology" and custom-designed to fit jally's version of the Greek New Testament of the Bible. Wassung spent some time under Cummins and Schoenheit in twit's "research" dept. Besides his degree in Syriac, those are his ONLY "biblical research" credentials. Jalvis always needs a genuine "research team" guy, like vic, who could make up dang in the Greek or Aramaic to back up what faddah was teaching Ol' Dictor every minute of every day. At first, it was Schoenheit. But, eventually even Dr. John the Word-tripper, got sick of "Moggy John" the real leader and founder of their POS "ministry".. Wassung is just a more personable bulldangter than Schoenheit, and willing to go along with JAL for whatever personal irrational "benefit" he gets from doing so.
When I contacted Wassung personally earlier this year, he completely lied to me about his participation and role in jal's new roadshow. He said TLTF paid him for his "research", and that he had no current or active role in their "leadership". I've still got the e-mails Bob, so no need in lying yet again.
The Adminstrations in Scripture teachings of both Wierwille, and as taken "further" by TLTF, are bungled, dumbed-down Bullinger and Welch made less dumb-looking by schoenheit and lynn's decades of training in Biblical Research at the feet of the grand dragon of P.I. himself, dictor paul wierwille. They're not only antiquated, but between vic and his Boyz, their value as study aids and teaching tools has been completely butchered by vic's delusions and his Boyz' pseudo-intellectual biblical manure salad. And, Jal was equally dismissive of any question or post put up at their so-called discussion on their Youtube channel. Some poor guy named Ronnie G. Schofield posted something about preterism and and JAL publicly yelled at the guy and everything he wrote for being a complete waste of time". That is, before everything was deleted. All that discussion thread is over there is jalvis impressing himself on video and Sha-Na-Nandra's prepubescent "listening with a purpose questions". Nothing anyone but their own elders posted is still there! Now THAT's intellectual and academic confidence is it not?......LOL. Open and honest discussion too.
Guys like wrenn and lynn and panarello, and finnegan, and twit will teach where the money is. That's all they can do and all they've been doing since they started their various "ministries". That's all they know. That's how they trained themselves to be christian leaders and workers in areas of concern interest and need. As I've said before, when you've got nothing you can make up whatever you want to sell as another panacea to dealing with REALITY. Religious, hypermanic delusions still sell well.
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Steve Lortz
So Wassung has had some training in Syriac. Was he involved with all the Aramaic hoo-hah that was going on at HQ in the late-'80s? Some people hold that the books of the New Testament were originally written in Aramaic and then translated into Greek. Was Wassung involved with THAT?
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
I'm still curious about something.
If that current stfi office-holder ever posts again,
I'm curious what he thinks about the lack of disclosure.
He's one of the people in charge of a group that has had at least
2 public scandals of doctrine and practice,
and he seems completely uninformed of them!
He said he was uninformed about MOMENTUS, and that's remarkable.
(We have plenty of information about it here for him.)
I didn't get to ask him about the "personal prophecy" boondoggle
that Lynn even allowed to trash his own marriage.
(We have plenty of information about it here for him.)
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DontWorryBeHappy
Steve Lortz.......
Wassung started out his Syriac studies at the university of Chicago under a Dr. Voobus, who was "all the rage" for twit's growing Aramaic Dept. Bruce Mahone and Dan McConnaughy both complete Masters' degrees under him. I believe Dan later went on to get a PhD. but from a different program. Wassung completed his Masters' in CA, at UCLA or USC. Marty McCrae who was one of the Promised Seed authors also started out at University of Chicago, but, after being banished and excommunicated from the 8th corpse for standing up to vic's intellectual bullying and publicly disagreeing with vic's P.I. re: JCOPS, he went on to a doctoral program at McGill University in Canada. Neither of those guys have anything to do with twit or cummins, or schoenheit, or geer, et al.
Wassung might have been involved in the late 80's, but I don't know since I left in '86. Either way, Wassung also has an Engineering degree from some place reputable and his "research" for TLTF and his service on their board of elders is his hobby, his leftover twit shared with jalvis and whoever else pays him I guess. I don't know if Wassung was involved in the Aramaic versus Greek originals debate. I know that a lot of those guys left during or after dem fawg years, but have no idea who left when and why. All I know is jalvis had the hots for one of Bob's sisters and spent a lot of effort and time trying to woo her to be his wog at CES during the late '90s. Luckily for her Lizzy Chavez filled that roll a couple of times now.
As far as Touchstone ever posting here again WordWolf, I doubt that will happen. So far, everywhere any of them has posted anything themselves, I seem to stumble upon them and get a chance to post stuff that has all since been deleted and I have been banned from every FB page and website at which they've got the power to do so. This last one on the End Times annual discussion they have on their YouTube channel called Justtruthit, was so blatantly prepubescent and intellectually vapid that I think even THEY were embarrassed by it. They've scrubbed them quite diligently so that zero discussion is left and it's all self-aggrandizing hype. Really amazingly immature and condescending at the same time. What a crew!
So, I doubt any of them will ever have the guts to say anything here again until their next crisis. Honestly though, unlike As The World Turns, their old faithful THOUSANDS has dwindled to to a couple of hundred. I think even the old time fans are getting ready to turn the channel on the jalvis soap operas they've been watching for 40 years in black and white in tiny little boxes just big enough for their God. They think somehow, first century religious thinking is relevant to 21st century christianity and world affairs. How sadly deluded for such an increasingly long time. Get some new charts please.
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Tzaia
There are a lot of "systematic" methodologies for studying scripture. Every last one of them are designed to bring the student to a particular conclusion, which can only happen using that methodology; not to a conclusion which is self evident. That was the lie of PFAL and all the offshoots - that their method was the most honest and reliable for getting to the "truth". It truly is subjective. For instance, I started using the historical-critical method back in 2008 or so, and that's when I started losing any "faith" in the accuracy of the bible, or that it was god-breathed at all. I've determined that the bible is a complete hot mess if you look at it critically.
All the focus on "end times" is just another way of trying to explain why we live in the world we do, but what is particularly distressing about it is the focus on the utter destruction of the people who either haven't heard the "good news" or have rejected it. The notion that one who is "antichrist" is someone automatically evil and in need of eternal torment and burning just blows my mind now.
But they jump on that wagon with glee in that somehow they will be spared or rewarded in the eternal. I haven't noticed that a one of them has been spared ANYTHING and no one has been able to confirm the eternal rewards system. What I HAVE noticed in the here and now is a lot of division, broken relationships, and heartache over words written on paper.
I feel about the bible like I do hotel pools since taking a pool chemistry course. I avoid them because the people who take "care" of them generally don't have a clue.
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waysider
DWBH said:
"Get some new charts please."
That's solid musical advise for someone who's been singing the same old songs for too long.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hello Jon Touchstone. Are you still with us here, or will we see you no more? I hope you stick around for awhile. You' the first Twustee that's ever posted more than once here at the GSC. I was looking forward to more good, substantive discussion. Are you coming back to at least finish up on this thread? Please advise. TY.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Well.....not surprisingly, Jon Touchstone has not appeared since I posted the previous post. Guess his "chief minister" got the revelation to dust off their feet from GSC once again. The "answers" to our questions were nowhere to be found. Genuine humbleness of mind was not displayed by either of the two TLTF Twustees who posted here. Just quotes of themselves and those who agree with their distorted, invented systematic theology regardless of what the Bible they idolize really says. They are chronically arrogant and self-centered. It's their way or the highway.
Jallymog even hijacked the name "CES" from those of us in MA who started up Christian Educational Services of MA in February 1987, while jally was still a fulltime employee of twit as limp coordinator of D.C. Sometime I'll tell you all what the vision of the rest of us who founded CES was for the outfit. It was NOT what you've seen and heard from those liars and deceivers who've been running it since 1988. It was just jally starting HIS MINISTRY again for himself and his own ego and financial greed. They paid themselves $106K a year salary, plus all expenses. They bought camp vision as their "Camp and HQ". They just sold it for over "$300K. Jenivee Schoenheit was the broker and the money was split between Gallagher and Schoenheit. No split for graesers and lynns. They got Lotsa ex-wayfers to pay for their high-life ministry during the 90's and early 2000s. What did they get for it? What is the legacy of these greatest ministries since the first century church? Ruined lives, disgraced and shamed "leadership" which defrocked and fired each other while sifting a ton of money from the suckers who were stuck on Wierwilleism and idolatry of Vic's versions of the bible and Bullinger, Stiles, Rinker, and Leonard. Jally continued his illicit, chronic, adulterous behavior without missing a step and got fired and defrocked for it by his own BOD. Never hear much from any of them about how they seduced people right back into their twit lite "ministry".
So, I doubt we'll ever see any of them here again. Their lies and dishonor have been exposed yet again. As long as there are fools eager to follow false heroes and keep giving them money to disgrace The Lord Jesus Christ with their anti-Christ teachings and practices. The cockroaches have scattered again when the lights went on. Vermin is as vermin does.
l
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Tzaia
There always seems to be someone who thinks they can interject their idea of truth into the mix and then has to go back home with tail tucked.
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Rocky
Word!
(btw, not "The Word.")
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chockfull
Jon, sounds like you're having a tough time learning to stay out of cults. That's too bad, because the devastation in your life won't show up until later.
I guess the lie of "exclusive truth" and a unique calling to protect it is like crack to the weak mind.
So to provide you with the charitable words of encouragement from Jesus you seem to so desire, run from that phony who is building and seeking out his next failed ministry like he has his marriages as fast as you can. Your sympathy towards his false humility is clouding your judgement.
Find the humblest least impressive church you can, get down on your knees, and ask God for forgiveness for letting your head fill with intellectual acrobatics in scripture that promote a denigrating and false view of fellow Christians and of Jesus himself.
Then you will break the cycle of ever learning yet never coming to the truth and the incessant lust for knowledge you try to pass off as being "zealous for the truth".
Love in Christ,
Chocky
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chockfull
And let's not discount a good ole fashioned job as motive too. You know like in the OT how things got so bad they put people in a priests office for a morsel of bread. Just like TWI people's paycheck prevents too much introspection about truth as the truth would also mean finding another job
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DontWorryBeHappy
So.........nothing more from any TLTF twustees, eh? How disappointing! Just when it looked like there was a grain of credibility and honesty about to shute forth from the bowels of the TLTF twustees and jalvis puts the old kibosh on it. So John lynnish, no?
Can't teach an old dawg new dog and pony show tricks I guess.
The End Times Discussion they made such a huge deal about on their justtruthit YouTube channel was a complete disaster. In the final, edited/deleted/banned-in-60 countries version that now appears there, there is not one comment from any non-TLTF member on the entire week-long discussion thread! They've all been deleted except for the ones from TLTF "elders" like Don Culp, Don Chamberlain, Sha-Na-Nandra Higgins, Janice Erickson, and other TLTF "elders". Nice open discussion eh? None of the things "discussed" by anybody else except their own board of elders was left standing. Not even the rare personal appearances of jalvis himself were left. Too revealing you know. It basically came down to this is MY bible and no one knows it or teaches it better. That's it. Jalvis gets another cult to run into the ground of his own massive ego and greed.
At least Touchstone was dumb enough to actually post here where they can't delete, ban, edit, bury, obfuscate, and just plain trash any and all counterpoint like jalvis likes to do. Bet he won't be making that kind of mistake again eh Bottley and jalvis? Not if he wants to keep his minus-tray he won't. Jalvis don't take truth from nobody but his gawd, and his dead, water-logged faddah in da woid under the fountain. Guess touchstone knows that he knows that now.
Still planning on yet another version of pfal this spring, if the $$ holds up. They only needed about 40-50K for this version and, maybe they got that now? They were supposed to do all this last May, but ran short of $$ and the Producers were too sick at the time. But, now, by the grace of your prayers and checking accounts, they're still getting better, and god's gonna get the glory!!.......Er.....but......they keep the money.
So, as this year draws to a close, TLTF is still regurgitating the same old garbage in the same old twit-like manner. Dictor Paul and Jallyroll jalvis his son, are still re-doing the magic class and begging for money and motor coaches. Maybe 2016 will be the year jalvis returns to "full-time minus-tray"?? How does he support himself and pay his medical bills. His gawd is good I bet......and probably wealthy too. Even for phoney, tripped-out Christian "leaders". But, our heroes are stretching themselves as thin as possible to do all "the work" of their minus-tray so you'll cough up enough $$ to make them full-time to meet the needs they've worked so hard to create for all of their sycophants. A tiny speck of deranged humans clinging to their interpretation of the bible and each other as if they make a difference to any living creature besides themselves. The same old pathetic garbage jalvis. Starting to get a bit old'n'crusty jal. Really starting to smell too. Can't you guys at least clean up after yourselves??
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DontWorryBeHappy
Well, it's coming up on March. Jallyroll and his boyz have postponed their new world shattering jeeezus class again. Last May, to last June or July, to November, to March 2016 and now to May-June 2016. That's a year of postponing! Where's all the money going?? Or, are you just banking the $$ and telling the world you're still "workin' on it"? Buy your RV/Motorcoach yet? Check with Bo. He's got a nice one. Maybe he can hook ya up?
Or.....maybe those old wayfers are running outta $$?? If they've been giving to you fools it doesn't surprise me. No God of Jesus Christ to bless your phony gimme your money research and teaching. So? Which is your priority jallyboy? RV, full-time for jeeeezus, or another piffle redux? Decisions, decisions. How many ways can I waste other people's monies?? If anyone can, jallyboy can. You suckers giving him your dough?? You are giving a free ride for doing absolutely NOTHING! How do his classes heal or teach anybody? How do they "take the place of the absent Christ"? How do they do what Jesus Christ did? How do they feed the starving, clothe and shelter the destitute, touch the untouchable, love the broken and outcast? What does their "MINISTRY" actually DO to help people in real, tangible, material ways??? Post another 20 hour class on how to privately interpret the bible to start your own religious cult? How much $$ did TLTF send to those poor folks in the Phillipines who wrote desperate for help? How much did lynn, Bottley, and touchstone send??? Or, did they hit up you "big fish donors" to cough up their dough? Hypocrites! Whited sepulchers. Merchants of the innocent and slaves of your own lusts and greed. As if Lizzy Chavez's marriage to jallyboy somehow endued her with as much "power and accuracy" as her numbskull husband(for the second time). Gimme a break. I'd like to know the latest MLM she's hawking. It's a habit of her's you know. She really needs to be fulltime too doesn't she? We've got to spare the unsuspecting from Lizzy's MLM ministries! Please! Make them fulltime!!!
So, on this post-Valentine's Day update, I'd like to thank TLTF and its Board of Twustees for showing us how the love of money and obsession with oneself is what their minus-tray and they are all about. God bless you guys and your spiritual VD this February!
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DontWorryBeHappy
Happy St. Patrick's Day you TLTFers!
If there's ever been anyone anywhere who has ever kissed the blarney stone it's those jokers on the TLTF Board of Twustees. Allow me to demonstrate:
"As we survey the Christian landscape today, we strongly believe that TLTF has a vital mission to the Body of Christ, and to the world. I am being neither arrogant nor elitist nor exclusive by simply saying that I personally know of nowhere else on the planet where people can find the degree of the accuracy of God's Word they can find in our ministry. And honestly, I'm very sorry I don't. If you do, let me know. Furthermore, I can't believe there aren't at least a million people across the world who would go wild if they got to hear the Word we share, and it never ceases to frustrate me that we aren't reaching more of them. But we will continue to do what we can, and pray that the Lord will lead us to those who want His Truth.
Jesus Christ was a total fanatic about the written Word of God, no doubt because he knew he would have to stake his future existence upon its accuracy and its veracity. Jesus realized the gruesome reality of death, knew that Satan (not God) was its author, and that rather than ushering him into the presence of God, it would instead terminate his precious life. He "sweat blood," as it were, as he approached the critical moment when he would lay down his life and forever after BE NO MORE unless his Father kept His promise to raise him out from among the dead. This month the Christian world celebrates the magnificent truth that God did exactly that.
Our Lord Jesus died for you and me so that we could now live for him. As we celebrate his RESURRECTION this month, let us determine to stand boldly upon the Truth that he loved and proclaimed."I love you.
What in the hell does "when we survey the Christian landscape" mean?? Jesus Art Appreciation 101? Is it a geographical location? Is it a private country where only "believers" are allowed?
As far as "the accuracy of God's word" goes, what the hell does that jargon mean? Sounds just like some other uneducated plagiarist i saw somewhere who called himself "the teacher". It's almost the same plagiarized garbage that vic wierwille used. The only difference is, they have more stuff they plagiarized than vic did, and their "original research" is even whackier and more destructive to humans than vic's was. The same old hackneyed piffle phrases and verses with the same old erroneous private interpretation. As far as any place on the planet that has as much of whatever "the accuracy" is, i can think of many landfills and garbage dumps that could use all that wasted paper, tape, dvd, and bytespace you guys overproduce every day. I'm sure there area few there in Indy with enough space for all your junk. And, I certainly have no problem at all believing there are not "at least a million people across the world" who buy you bible BS. I can't believe there are even a hundred dumb enough to send you hucksters money, But, P.T. Barnum was obviously right about how many of TLTF followers are born every minute. Your frustration is really obvious, but the facts are you haven't reached a fraction of the suckers vic did, and you've been on your own for longer than he was! GET OVER IT! SNAP OUT OF IT! No one outside your current little mind-numbed cult will ever give a rat's patoot about your "vital mission". There will never be a million who will ever hear about your puny cult. You're not "teaching" anything new or accurate. Your teaching a combo of Momentus, PFAL, B.G. Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class, J.E. Stiles, Glenn Clark, E.W.Bullinger, Kenyon, your Romans class is a plagiarism of Bullinger and Charles Welch, Prophetic Movement christian spiritualism, and JBS ideology. NO ONE CARES, least of all God and Jesus Christ.
One more thing......JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT A "FANATIC OF THE WRITTEN WORD"!......HE was and IS the WORD, not your foolish compilation of spurious ancient MS, or comparing all the texts with the various English versions of the Bible. He had none of your new testament to rightly divide. He IS The Word of God and The Will of God, not your stupid books and papers and texts and manuscripts. You idolize the paper pages of manmade books and attempt to take the place of your absent christ. You have exchanged The Living Lord with dead trees. You are false teachers and false prophets. You take the name of The Lord in vain by trying to sell YOUR interpretation of your "written word",.....even inventing your own "accuracy version" of it (calling it the REV, revised English version) and making merchandize of It and the flock.
Bema bound? You? BBBWWWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHA.
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Twinky
Wherever did you get that drivel, DWBH?
Taken out of whatever context it appeared - if it had been in any kind of mainstream church newsletter, magazine, circular, bishop's letter or anything else - I'd be wondering what kind of arrogant, elitist, exclusive nutjob wrote it and how fast I could get outa there...
Lol, "it never ceases to frustrate me that we aren't reaching more of them" - has he ever considered why his efforts are frustrated? By whom?
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Rocky
I doubt it.
Perhaps extreme narcissism clouds his self-awareness.
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DontWorryBeHappy
LOL Twinky!
The drivel is from their March 2016 official newsletter. Easter edition. It's kinda like the "road to nowhere" in Alaska.......a letter to nowhere......A monthly epistle from dippy to all the 10's of dipsters in his tiny cult. How pathetic. Neck-deep in the Big Muddy and the damn fool marches on.
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Tzaia
Just pity the fool...who says he's not being arrogant when he actually is.
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waysider
A hypocrite in all his might,
So wrong in that he thinks he's right.
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