I'm not trained health care professional so this is just an opinion.
Wierwille exhibited many characteristics that would typically be associated with psychopathy. He really didn't care about the consequences others might suffer because of his actions. He didn't care about the lives and futures of the people he was affecting. He simply lacked the ability to feel empathy. In her book (Losing The Way), Kristen recalls an incident in which she asked VP what he would do if he were caught in his wrongdoing. He casually shrugged it off and said he would lie. That incident reveals a lot about the true nature of the man.
We were manipulated by a man who had mastered his deceitful craft of satisfying his own wants and greeds. Being youthful and full of idealism, we were no match for his schemes.
I realize there are people reading this who will disagree with me. That's fine. All I ask is that you do a bit of personal research on psychopathy and sociopathy. Compare your findings to the accounts that have echoed through the halls of GSC for almost 2 decades.
Sure, we made the decision to follow his musings but our decisions were often times founded on incorrect and/or deceitful information.
That much of the blame falls clearly on the shoulders of Victor Paul Wierwille.
P.S.
(You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?) :P
I'm not trained health care professional so this is just an opinion.
Wierwille exhibited many characteristics that would typically be associated with psychopathy. He really didn't care about the consequences others might suffer because of his actions. He didn't care about the lives and futures of the people he was affecting. He simply lacked the ability to feel empathy. In her book (Losing The Way), Kristen recalls an incident in which she asked VP what he would do if he were caught in his wrongdoing. He casually shrugged it off and said he would lie. That incident reveals a lot about the true nature of the man.
We were manipulated by a man who had mastered his deceitful craft of satisfying his own wants and greeds. Being youthful and full of idealism, we were no match for his schemes.
I realize there are people reading this who will disagree with me. That's fine. All I ask is that you do a bit of personal research on psychopathy and sociopathy. Compare your findings to the accounts that have echoed through the halls of GSC for almost 2 decades.
Sure, we made the decision to follow his musings but our decisions were often times founded on incorrect and/or deceitful information.
That much of the blame falls clearly on the shoulders of Victor Paul Wierwille.
P.S.
(You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?)
Links provided for reader convenience.
I've written about psychopathic politicians (other than on gsc) and agree completely.
I still wonder about what vpw taught about abortion and God breathed life(this is not a discussion about abortion).
I thought how hard it would be to travel around with kids in twi (an Army career was hard enough but they paid for the moves).
Here's what I wonder: did vpw's advocating abortion, when in opposition to many other religeous/moral values of so many orthodox Christian folks allow them the freedom to continue on the field, stay in twi and have more $ to give to twi. If all or any part of that is correct then the twi evil goes deeper than imagineable.
As I said, I still wonder and that goes back over 40 years when I first heard it - at the time I found it hard to fathom and still do based on the "breath life" rationale.
Kids change the direction of our lives quite often so that's why I thought this was an appropriate forum to bring up the topic.
No accussations here against twi/vpw but just wonder if anyone else ever had these thoughts or knowledge that disputes/supports it (yes, I know, there was a family corp).
I was in residence with the 16th Corps during the first block at Emporia in 1985 and the second block at Gunnison after New Year's Day. When we went on HoHo Relo, us males were told that if we got anybody pregnant over the break, we were expected to pay for the abortion. I don't know if that information directly addresses any of your questions, MRAP, but it seems to me to speak volumes about the attitude of TWI leadership toward any lives other than their own.
Well Steve, it does say alot - sometimes I think that maybe I had just imagined hearing the concept but my wife re-assured me that she heard it as well. We never did get an abortion, we were well outa twi prior to our first child - like that would have made a difference anyway - by that time we realized that much of what was taught was crap and did not know what was truth from twi.
".....did vpw's advocating abortion, when in opposition to many other religeous/moral values of so many orthodox Christian folks allow them the freedom to continue on the field, stay in twi and have more $ to give to twi."
The answer to that is yes. There were people who were explicitly told to follow that course of action. (The term "parasite" was tossed around to describe the unborn.) Some of those people post or have, in the past, posted here.
I still wonder about what vpw taught about abortion and God breathed life(this is not a discussion about abortion).
(snip)
As I said, I still wonder and that goes back over 40 years when I first heard it - at the time I found it hard to fathom and still do based on the "breath life" rationale.
(snip)
No accusations here against twi/vpw but just wonder if anyone else ever had these thoughts or knowledge that disputes/supports it (yes, I know, there was a family corp).
We've discussed it in the past.
I just recapped your answer in a new thread in Doctrinal.
If you want to discuss it more, that's the thread to use,
if there's anything you'd want to discuss about it.
In addition to all the other points made about the twi "rationale" for abortion, it all goes back to the underlying concept for ALL of wierwille's private interpretation of scripture: self-justifying rationalization.
I don't believe that contradicts any of the things mentioned by others in response to MRAP's question.
Tying it back to the main thread topic/title, compared to wierwille's lusts -- money, sex and power -- ALL of it trivialized EVERYone except him. That's how I see it, anyway.
I was in residence with the 16th Corps during the first block at Emporia in 1985 and the second block at Gunnison after New Year's Day. When we went on HoHo Relo, us males were told that if we got anybody pregnant over the break, we were expected to pay for the abortion. ...
Over HoHo Relo, they expected you to meet and mate with some random female? Or some female that you'd already known?
Sh@g 'em and leave 'em?
Only responsibility = get rid of the evidence?
A somewhat different approach from most churches, which advocate more of a pre-marital celibacy line.
When I was in MS as a Corps Grad, a WOW brother and sister on the field there got involved and she got pregnant. They wanted to get married and have the baby. In a Corps meeting, I remember the Limb Leader's wife (4th corps) sternly saying about them that it was out of the question that they should do such a thing as get married and have the baby!! NO, she was headed for the Corps! The implication must have been that she have an abortion, since that would be the only way not to have the baby.
That was one of my "red light moments". (though it would be years still before I exited) Something just wasn't right if two people who loved each other enough to want to get married and have their child were considered so utterly wrong.
As a psychopath, vpw wanted total control over people.
The ability to choose to end lives was sort-of incidental compared to what
he really wanted- money, adulation, and women.
Are we sure it's just incidental? I would imagine as his power and desire for more grew, taking lives would be part of a "logical" progression. Money, adulation and women would not be enough. His followers we know fed on fear, a "good" twig fellowship made your skin tingle, full of talk about anger and violence. The Man himself I would think laid the "blueprints" for that. Indiscriminate use of abortion, driving suicide, talk of disposing of children, talk of war, as examples. The stereotypical cult involves death. Lots of death. The Thief commeth not but for to steal kill and destroy. That leads me to think it's more than incidental.
Are we sure it's just incidental? I would imagine as his power and desire for more grew, taking lives would be part of a "logical" progression. Money, adulation and women would not be enough. His followers we know fed on fear, a "good" twig fellowship made your skin tingle, full of talk about anger and violence. The Man himself I would think laid the "blueprints" for that. Indiscriminate use of abortion, driving suicide, talk of disposing of children, talk of war, as examples. The stereotypical cult involves death. Lots of death. The Thief commeth not but for to steal kill and destroy. That leads me to think it's more than incidental.
Conceptually, from vpee's observed behavior, the more blatant and obvious intentions were money, adulation and sex.
I don't know that we've had people discuss any open or public statements that he may have made suggesting otherwise.
"That leads me to think it's more than incidental..." is a statement based on your inference. I'm not suggesting you are either right or wrong. Just pointing out that it's an inference.
Given that he was still "in charge" at the time of the Jonestown mass suicide, I suspect he would have been careful not to put himself in the same box of public
Nazism executed controlled/selective abortion. Strong twi families/fellows must procreate but the rest of you minions, abort to your hearts content because kids on your budget mean less money coming to the HQ. Maybe I am totally wrong but it's how I am seeing it because I no longer see this topic in an isolated window but through a larger sceme of things.
Did vpw/HQ really think that deep into the future? I only think so because they realized their control over people.
I don't think pro-abortion was about controlling the minions, MRAP; it was more about attempting to controlling the evidence that this "church" advocated "free love" among its head men and needed to keep that hidden from the general public (and its own followers). That attituded filtered down and eventually reached the twigs. where people had already been primed in PFAL. If there is free love among the twig members and some of them might have had abortions, it would be easier to attack those same women if they came into the Corps: their barriers against this had already been broken down.
" Did vpw/HQ really think that deep into the future? I only think so because they realized their control over people."
Yo! MRAP! If you're still here.......vic never thought any deeper or beyond his own dick. Twinky is completely correct in her analysis. ...Shoemheit/Gallagher, and Lynn/Bottley. All lying, thieving weasels, and in lynn's case a repeated sexual predator and adulterer. All have promoted and practiced spiritualist and occult rituals in their pseudo-christian pop-psychology "ministries". They have publicly disgraced themselves and each other for nearly 30 years now. Over and over and over again all over the worldwide web. Never a public explanation. Never a public apology. Never a hint of humble contrition in any of the myriad tapes, classes, newsletters, and incessantly banal and pre-school level PR and videos.
In addition to all the other points made about the twi "rationale" for abortion, it all goes back to the underlying concept for ALL of wierwille's private interpretation of scripture: self-justifying rationalization.
I don't believe that contradicts any of the things mentioned by others in response to MRAP's question.
Tying it back to the main thread topic/title, compared to wierwille's lusts -- money, sex and power -- ALL of it trivialized EVERYone except him. That's how I see it, anyway.
You know I remember reading about some of the Catholic popes and that church through the Crusades and the period up before Martin Luther. I remember reading about a large pond next to a monastery that when they drained it had the skeletons of over 300 infants in it. The monks were in one building together. The nuns were in another.
Somehow this discussion about twit leadership behavior and abortion seems to bring this to mind. It is remarkably similar. For them - the ethics of expediency. Regardless of the murder involved.
I tend to agree. I don't think they were thinking into the deep future. They only saw as far as the next WOW year, Corps graduating class or however you want to categorize it. Damage control for the here and now. VP didn't really give a crap what would happen after he croaked. He had his cake and he ate it, too. Martinfail's problem was that he didn't really see the full scope of how the scam worked. Like a poker player who doesn't understand the nuances of bluffing.
You know I remember reading about some of the Catholic popes and that church through the Crusades and the period up before Martin Luther. I remember reading about a large pond next to a monastery that when they drained it had the skeletons of over 300 infants in it. The monks were in one building together. The nuns were in another.
Somehow this discussion about twit leadership behavior and abortion seems to bring this to mind. It is remarkably similar. For them - the ethics of expediency. Regardless of the murder involved.
If I recall correctly, that was from a book that was endorsed by The Way and for sale at the bookstore. I know I read it but that's all that comes to mind. It was offered to us to prove that the RCC was corrupt. (Implication being that we were different/better)
If I recall correctly, that was from a book that was endorsed by The Way and for sale at the bookstore. I know I read it but that's all that comes to mind. It was offered to us to prove that the RCC was corrupt. (Implication being that we were different/better)
See. Now I can never say the Way didn't teach me anything. ;) They taught me about themselves without even knowing it. LOL.
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waysider
I'm not trained health care professional so this is just an opinion.
Wierwille exhibited many characteristics that would typically be associated with psychopathy. He really didn't care about the consequences others might suffer because of his actions. He didn't care about the lives and futures of the people he was affecting. He simply lacked the ability to feel empathy. In her book (Losing The Way), Kristen recalls an incident in which she asked VP what he would do if he were caught in his wrongdoing. He casually shrugged it off and said he would lie. That incident reveals a lot about the true nature of the man.
We were manipulated by a man who had mastered his deceitful craft of satisfying his own wants and greeds. Being youthful and full of idealism, we were no match for his schemes.
I realize there are people reading this who will disagree with me. That's fine. All I ask is that you do a bit of personal research on psychopathy and sociopathy. Compare your findings to the accounts that have echoed through the halls of GSC for almost 2 decades.
Sure, we made the decision to follow his musings but our decisions were often times founded on incorrect and/or deceitful information.
That much of the blame falls clearly on the shoulders of Victor Paul Wierwille.
P.S.
(You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?) :P
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Rocky
Links provided for reader convenience.
I've written about psychopathic politicians (other than on gsc) and agree completely.
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MRAP
I still wonder about what vpw taught about abortion and God breathed life(this is not a discussion about abortion).
I thought how hard it would be to travel around with kids in twi (an Army career was hard enough but they paid for the moves).
Here's what I wonder: did vpw's advocating abortion, when in opposition to many other religeous/moral values of so many orthodox Christian folks allow them the freedom to continue on the field, stay in twi and have more $ to give to twi. If all or any part of that is correct then the twi evil goes deeper than imagineable.
As I said, I still wonder and that goes back over 40 years when I first heard it - at the time I found it hard to fathom and still do based on the "breath life" rationale.
Kids change the direction of our lives quite often so that's why I thought this was an appropriate forum to bring up the topic.
No accussations here against twi/vpw but just wonder if anyone else ever had these thoughts or knowledge that disputes/supports it (yes, I know, there was a family corp).
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Steve Lortz
I was in residence with the 16th Corps during the first block at Emporia in 1985 and the second block at Gunnison after New Year's Day. When we went on HoHo Relo, us males were told that if we got anybody pregnant over the break, we were expected to pay for the abortion. I don't know if that information directly addresses any of your questions, MRAP, but it seems to me to speak volumes about the attitude of TWI leadership toward any lives other than their own.
Love,
Steve
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MRAP
Well Steve, it does say alot - sometimes I think that maybe I had just imagined hearing the concept but my wife re-assured me that she heard it as well. We never did get an abortion, we were well outa twi prior to our first child - like that would have made a difference anyway - by that time we realized that much of what was taught was crap and did not know what was truth from twi.
Thanks for the post.
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waysider
".....did vpw's advocating abortion, when in opposition to many other religeous/moral values of so many orthodox Christian folks allow them the freedom to continue on the field, stay in twi and have more $ to give to twi."
The answer to that is yes. There were people who were explicitly told to follow that course of action. (The term "parasite" was tossed around to describe the unborn.) Some of those people post or have, in the past, posted here.
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WordWolf
(snip)
(snip)
We've discussed it in the past.
I just recapped your answer in a new thread in Doctrinal.
If you want to discuss it more, that's the thread to use,
if there's anything you'd want to discuss about it.
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Rocky
In addition to all the other points made about the twi "rationale" for abortion, it all goes back to the underlying concept for ALL of wierwille's private interpretation of scripture: self-justifying rationalization.
I don't believe that contradicts any of the things mentioned by others in response to MRAP's question.
Tying it back to the main thread topic/title, compared to wierwille's lusts -- money, sex and power -- ALL of it trivialized EVERYone except him. That's how I see it, anyway.
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Bolshevik
If VPW was a psychopath, it sounds like he sought a way he could choose to end any life, unborn or born, via his teachings.
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Twinky
Over HoHo Relo, they expected you to meet and mate with some random female? Or some female that you'd already known?
Sh@g 'em and leave 'em?
Only responsibility = get rid of the evidence?
A somewhat different approach from most churches, which advocate more of a pre-marital celibacy line.
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frank123lol
As people have said here before the way paid for a lot of abortions
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outandabout
When I was in MS as a Corps Grad, a WOW brother and sister on the field there got involved and she got pregnant. They wanted to get married and have the baby. In a Corps meeting, I remember the Limb Leader's wife (4th corps) sternly saying about them that it was out of the question that they should do such a thing as get married and have the baby!! NO, she was headed for the Corps! The implication must have been that she have an abortion, since that would be the only way not to have the baby.
That was one of my "red light moments". (though it would be years still before I exited) Something just wasn't right if two people who loved each other enough to want to get married and have their child were considered so utterly wrong.
("Woe to those who call evil good and good evil")
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WordWolf
As a psychopath, vpw wanted total control over people.
The ability to choose to end lives was sort-of incidental compared to what
he really wanted- money, adulation, and women.
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Rocky
Nailed it.
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Bolshevik
Are we sure it's just incidental? I would imagine as his power and desire for more grew, taking lives would be part of a "logical" progression. Money, adulation and women would not be enough. His followers we know fed on fear, a "good" twig fellowship made your skin tingle, full of talk about anger and violence. The Man himself I would think laid the "blueprints" for that. Indiscriminate use of abortion, driving suicide, talk of disposing of children, talk of war, as examples. The stereotypical cult involves death. Lots of death. The Thief commeth not but for to steal kill and destroy. That leads me to think it's more than incidental.
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Rocky
Conceptually, from vpee's observed behavior, the more blatant and obvious intentions were money, adulation and sex.
I don't know that we've had people discuss any open or public statements that he may have made suggesting otherwise.
"That leads me to think it's more than incidental..." is a statement based on your inference. I'm not suggesting you are either right or wrong. Just pointing out that it's an inference.
Given that he was still "in charge" at the time of the Jonestown mass suicide, I suspect he would have been careful not to put himself in the same box of public
perception as Jim Jones.
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WordWolf
As I see it,
vpw viewed the people as INSIGNIFICANT.
Each mattered to him as he found them USEFUL.
So, useful people around grounds, he could be friendly to them
in passing and otherwise leave them to tedious work he
didn't have to do.
He wanted money-to buy things he wanted to use or "own"
(ministry property was "his stuff" by his own words),
he wanted adulation-people applauding and hanging on his words,
and he wanted women. Actually, I think he was usually more
excited about GETTING the women, and didn't care as much even
about getting sex, that is, the "chase" was exciting, and
bending a woman to his will, but since he didn't see her as a
person, she otherwise didn't matter except as a trophy.
If he sought to kill his followers, he'd have fewer people to
give him money, adulation, and women. So, it's unlikely he
wanted the power to kill them. He was many things, but he
had a self-sustaining plan that lasted through the end of his
life.
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MRAP
Nazism executed controlled/selective abortion. Strong twi families/fellows must procreate but the rest of you minions, abort to your hearts content because kids on your budget mean less money coming to the HQ. Maybe I am totally wrong but it's how I am seeing it because I no longer see this topic in an isolated window but through a larger sceme of things.
Did vpw/HQ really think that deep into the future? I only think so because they realized their control over people.
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Twinky
I don't think pro-abortion was about controlling the minions, MRAP; it was more about attempting to controlling the evidence that this "church" advocated "free love" among its head men and needed to keep that hidden from the general public (and its own followers). That attituded filtered down and eventually reached the twigs. where people had already been primed in PFAL. If there is free love among the twig members and some of them might have had abortions, it would be easier to attack those same women if they came into the Corps: their barriers against this had already been broken down.
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DontWorryBeHappy
" Did vpw/HQ really think that deep into the future? I only think so because they realized their control over people."
Yo! MRAP! If you're still here.......vic never thought any deeper or beyond his own dick. Twinky is completely correct in her analysis. ...Shoemheit/Gallagher, and Lynn/Bottley. All lying, thieving weasels, and in lynn's case a repeated sexual predator and adulterer. All have promoted and practiced spiritualist and occult rituals in their pseudo-christian pop-psychology "ministries". They have publicly disgraced themselves and each other for nearly 30 years now. Over and over and over again all over the worldwide web. Never a public explanation. Never a public apology. Never a hint of humble contrition in any of the myriad tapes, classes, newsletters, and incessantly banal and pre-school level PR and videos.
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chockfull
You know I remember reading about some of the Catholic popes and that church through the Crusades and the period up before Martin Luther. I remember reading about a large pond next to a monastery that when they drained it had the skeletons of over 300 infants in it. The monks were in one building together. The nuns were in another.
Somehow this discussion about twit leadership behavior and abortion seems to bring this to mind. It is remarkably similar. For them - the ethics of expediency. Regardless of the murder involved.
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waysider
I tend to agree. I don't think they were thinking into the deep future. They only saw as far as the next WOW year, Corps graduating class or however you want to categorize it. Damage control for the here and now. VP didn't really give a crap what would happen after he croaked. He had his cake and he ate it, too. Martinfail's problem was that he didn't really see the full scope of how the scam worked. Like a poker player who doesn't understand the nuances of bluffing.
If I recall correctly, that was from a book that was endorsed by The Way and for sale at the bookstore. I know I read it but that's all that comes to mind. It was offered to us to prove that the RCC was corrupt. (Implication being that we were different/better)
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chockfull
See. Now I can never say the Way didn't teach me anything. ;) They taught me about themselves without even knowing it. LOL.
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DontWorryBeHappy
The title of that book, Waysider, is "The Babylon Mystery Religion", by Ralph Woodrow.
It was sold in the twit bookstore for as long as I was there.
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