Ordination in The Way

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Hi Twinky!

Good question. The most accurate definition that I know is the one you ended your post with. That is what apostolos(sp?) most basic meaning is.

There are many Churches which have varying understanding and definition of an apostle. Every mainstream Christian denomination has something to say about apostles. There are also many Apostolic churches and ministries here in the US. There is a good sized portion of black folk here who have Apostolic Churches. They all define apostle differently, and most often their definitions reflect their core Christian belief and church tradition or history. There is quite a lot of writing done on this topic so there is quite a lot of muddling through volumes of stuff to find out what the various churches and sects believe.

My take? The same as the definition you gave from Bible Dictionary. A Christian Apostle is one sent by Jesus Christ to do The Lord's bidding. Pretty simple. All the stuff about new light, old light, dim light, is all vic's own PI. It was all designed so that if you accepted vic's definitions of the "gift ministries", you would "figure out" that vic made the definitions in a manner where all definitions pointed to vic as a current, biblically defined apostle, prophet and teacher. He never claimed to be an evangelist or pastor, but he sure made it appear as if he had the big three as listed in Corinthians. So if you accepted vic's definitions then you would reflexively accept that vic had at least the big three, and some thought all 5!

In the large denominations and many smaller churches there is a common point to their qualifications for apostleship. The doctrine is that in order to be a real Apostle, one had to have seen Jesus, either in person like the original 12, or by revelation as Paul did on the road to Damascus. Some also believe there must be an assigned mission from Jesus that each apostle is called to carry out, thus being sent out by Christ to do His bidding.

So again, my take is that a Christian Apostle is a man or woman called by Christ to carry out a specific mission on His behalf, sent out by Christ to do His bidding. That's it for me. I believe God's description of an Apostle is purposely vague so that the carnal mind would not come up with all their own qualifications and definitions, all of which put Christ and His Apostles into a man made box, just like vic did. No limitations, qualifications as far as God's concerned in my book. Far too constrictive and limiting IMO, of both Jesus and His Apostles.

What's your take Twinky?

[WordWolf]

" It was all designed so that if you accepted vic's definitions of the "gift ministries", you would "figure out" that vic made the definitions in a manner where all definitions pointed to vic as a current, biblically defined apostle, prophet and teacher. He never claimed to be an evangelist or pastor, but he sure made it appear as if he had the big three as listed in Corinthians. So if you accepted vic's definitions then you would reflexively accept that vic had at least the big three, and some thought all 5!"

He may never have OFFICIALLY claimed to be an evangelist or pastor,

but he sure HINTED about them shamelessly and, as you said, he redefined all 5

to make it sound like he fit ALL the definitions.

Ever see a group say an Evangelist's primary function was NOT to "evangelize",

but to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO EVANGELIZE?

Only vpw was that shameless.

He said that Evangelists had the duty to get others emotionally hot enough so that

THEY evangelized. (Then the evangelist could stay at HQ and enjoy all the comforts.)

My, how CONVENIENT. And how odd that the very word that defines the function supposedly

doesn't apply at all to the function!

[spectrum49]

Thank you for your input everyone! All I actually meant to put forth was a "possible spiritual pattern" in the Word. Aside from the "proper definitions", and "Vicster's thoughts", etc, I only wonder if God had somehow designed things to truly work that way. If so, then perhaps there IS A WAY to facilitate miracles and healings, etc.

I suppose nobody can successfully argue against the fact that (even without scripture references) when the right word is spoken at the right time and place by a "qualified" (that is, a bonafide...in God's eyes) teacher, then we might at least have "some level of confidence" that (by sheer common sense and logic alone) such things may be possible, or (perhaps) may even have been ordered that way by our Creator.

Again, thank you for entertaining my "idea". So....carry on all....I'm listening.

SPEC :)

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Good post WordWolf.

At the advanced class 1972 in Rye, NY, vic played the tape of Oral Roberts' preaching on The Red Thread. After the tape, Vic got into a rap about how he almost got hooked up with Oral and Billy Graham. His plan was for them to do the evangelizing and then send all their converts to vic to be under the Teacher at The Way. Vic said evangelism was not his "long suit" but t it was Graham's and Roberts.

He said the thwarting point was the Trinity. The usual excuse for his obnoxiousness and pugnacity, which turned off everyone who wasn't in vic's

Way. Lazy back then already expecting everyone else to evangelize as WordWolf posted, and then send all those new students Vic's way. I'll be the apostle, prophet and teacher, the pope of New Knoxville hanging out at the family farm where he was born. Handy dandy, eh?

[skyrider]

"Ever see a group say an Evangelist's primary function was NOT to "evangelize",

but to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO EVANGELIZE? Only vpw was that shameless."

Hmmm....let's just try to apply that sequence down the line, shall we?

And.....a Pastor's primary function is to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO PASTOR THE FLOCK.

And.....a Teacher's primary function is to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO TEACH THOSE TWIGS.

And.....a Prophet's primary function is to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO PROPHESY IN BELIEVER'S MTGS.

And.....an Apostle's primary function is to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO SHARE THIS 'NEW LIGHT.'

With wierwille, it was ALWAYS the lazy road; pilfer off of others' labor and service.

When did wierwille EVER go to a hospital bed and pray/minister to another?

Or, when did ole vic EVER give charitable work to help the downtrodden, the homeless, the abused?

The blunt fact is.....it is ludicrous for wierwille name to be co-joined with any gift-ministry label.

The guy skewed and skewered nearly ever truth that he plagiarized throughout his life.

Wierwille was a swindler and a fraud.....period.

[skyrider]

Another way to look at this....

When wierwille stated that an Evangelist's primary function was NOT to evangelize,

but TO GET OTHER PEOPLE TO EVANGELIZE.....

He had simply commandeered the application of Multi-Level Marketing 101.

Get others to promote and sell your soap.

[waysider]

Another way to look at this....

When wierwille stated that an Evangelist's primary function was NOT to evangelize,

but TO GET OTHER PEOPLE TO EVANGELIZE.....

He had simply commandeered the application of Multi-Level Marketing 101.

Get others to promote and sell your soap.

Except we weren't really selling the "soap". What we were selling was the OPPORTUNITY to sell the soap. I sell you the opportunity. You sell someone else the opportunity. He sells the opportunity to yet another person and so on. We were so busy selling the opportunity, we forgot all about the soap.

edit: bold and emphasis added.

Edited February 27, 2016 by waysider

[skyrider]

Except we weren't really selling the "soap". What we were selling was the OPPORTUNITY to sell the soap. I sell you the opportunity. You sell someone else the opportunity. He sells the opportunity to yet another person and so on. We were so busy selling the opportunity, we forgot all about the soap.

Waysider....your point is well taken.

In this case, one has to define "soap."

Was it?

1) Scriptural truths to better Christian living

2) Wierwille's ministry and pfal class series

WOW Ambassadors did NOT go forth as the "opportunity to sell the soap".....they SOLD the soap (2).

The goal was to run pfal classes....ie, "the soap."

All of wierwille's programs [WOW, College Division, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps] were designed to sell HIS soap,

his classes....AND promote others to do it as well. The deceptive perception was that many thought this whole

enchilada was about Christian living (1).

[Raf]

It was 1st Century Soap. Actually left you dirtier after you used it, but that was your fault.

[waysider]

My analogy appears to be a bit weak. By "soap" I meant the so-called more abundant life. The PFAL class was supposed to be the opportunity to have the "soap". Instead of selling people the soap we sold them the opportunity. Like with Axway, you're not really selling people the product, you're selling dealerships.

edit: Darn grammar rules keep getting in the way.

Edited February 27, 2016 by waysider

[Rocky]

My analogy appears to be a bit weak. By "soap" I meant the so-called more abundant life. The PFAL class was supposed to be the opportunity to have the "soap". Instead of selling people the soap we sold them the opportunity. Like with Axway, you're not really selling people the product, you're selling dealerships.

edit: Darn grammar rules keep getting in the way.

I think your analogy was directly on the mark.

Btw, isn't selling the opportunity (which is pretty much how "Axway" did it), the very definition of pyramid scheme?