Some of the comments here have gotten quite personal. I'm just going to ask that folks exercise their maturity and refrain from that conduct. I'm not pointing fingers because I assume you know who you are and what you wrote. One post that went too far was deleted. Another that arguably went too far remains for no reason other than I found it difficult to separate fair critique from unfair. On another day I would have deleted it, but then it would have seemed like choosing sides. No need. You're all adults, and I know you are able to work through it.
MRAP: If you think GSC is a cult, you are entitled to that opinion. You are entitled to express it. You couldn't be more wrong, but we are under no obligation whatsoever to explain to you how and why. We are an online community that you asked to join. We have norms and mores that have built up over more than 16 years of posting both here and on a predecessor site.
People cite their TWI credentials here to document that they know about the matters they are addressing. That's it. Being Corps or WOW or Way Disciple or Advanced Class grad doesn't win anyone any GSC points. It does help us (readers) identify those who are speaking from personal experience v. those who are relaying what they heard.
Some of what you guys have written to each other is utterly uncalled for and beneath the dignity of an adult on an internet forum. I get to decide whether the time I spent in TWI or studying the Bible was wasted, not you and not any other poster here. And if you do not know my career or my level of success in it, you have zero moral right to disparage my life on or off this board. Seriously, act your age.
For the record, mine us under 50, and I am seriously not an angry person. But I can get riled up with the best of them, like the rest of them.
A couple of other things.
1. Please stay on topic. If a thread is dedicated to a certain topic (like the REV Bible), then discuss the topic on that thread. Please don't ask someone on one thread to defend what he said on a different thread unless you are somehow relating the other thread to this one.
2. Some of us have identities that are completely secret on this forum. Others (like me) are completely open about who we are. And some, like DWBH, treat their ID as an open secret. As far as posting on the forum is concerned, we ask everyone to respect each other's self-identification by addressing them by their screen name and only by their screen name. Actually, that's more than an ask. Seriously, don't out anyone unless you KNOW for a FACT they are ok with it.
I can't think of anything else other than to say play nice and stick to the topic.
One of the interesting things your post brings up is discussing things like this - ordination - seems to divide people.
I'd agree that certainly happened at TWI. The other thing is, why ordain so many? Were there really that many people dying or getting married? Anyone can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but VPW himself said (in essence, these are not exact words) that those were the two things that ordination allowed you to do.
In other words, if you didn't want to marry or burry people, you might not want to be ordained.
Yet, how many were? Seems skewed a bit out of proportion for the numbers that were in it.
Aye, but it was "the ticket" to advance in stature among the rank and file.
The "public recognition" that you were... well, enough of that.
It's made me wonder how it really was in the first century, outside the hierarchy and those "who seemed to be somewhat" at Jerusalem.
Yes, I see that Titus was to "ordain elders" in every city (as is also mentioned in Acts 14). But, where is it written in scripture that elders have gift ministries, or visa versa? Has anybody that has given some honest thought to this care to comment on it?
You want my 100% raw thoughts on the topic? Ordination was God talking to Paul after He raised him from the dead inspiring him to go on to the next city.
I'm inclined to think that 2Cor.12 probably aligns with that period of time he was being dragged out of Lystra, which is why he couldn't say whether he was "in the body or out of the body" (which had just been beaten to a pulp.) Couldn't say, 'cause he probably didn't know if he was alive or dead at the time.
There were no VP invitations, BOD letters, ceremonies, salt covenant BS, little corpse seal paperweights, foot-kissing of patriarchs or matriarchs, selling your souls, or obeying edicts you don't agree with. It didn't end up in lofty positions or titles sitting in coveted circles with other Pharisees, but in famine, poverty, shipwreck, and in the end being cast out by his own people and martyred. Paul kind of gave up the BS ordination with the Pharisees for something a little more real. Reality is a lot less appealing.
And 99.8% of all the hot air circulating around this topic is exactly that.
I spent a lot of years observing the ordained clergy in TWI and knowing many of them personally. I can understand why VP ordained the early 1-5 corps people - he was growing an organization and needed to have trusted leaders who would carry out his wishes. He needed a structure he could work with on the "field."
That said, many of them were nice people but - looking back, I saw very few "gift ministries" at work. Although I will say, I do believe Steve Heefner, Jim Dopp, Donnie Fugit and a few others did have true, Godly ministries. I'm sure there were others but I did not personally know them. In fact in the years after that, during my time in the corps and on staff, there was only one person that I believed God showed me that they had a ministry and what it was - and she was a female who was never ordained by TWI. And I didn't tell her until 20 years later.
As the ministry grew and the corps grew there were many people that quite frankly, I wondered how these some of these guys were getting ordained. As I would speak to later corps men, 10th, 11th and 12th, it seemed that ordination had evolved to become a carrot on a stick - it was what the men all aspired to, it was a huge motivator that VP used. It was the highest pinnacle of success in TWI. You had arrived. I cannot tell you how many men told me they were going to run class after class on the field and get their ordination. Well alrighty then...
As I've thought about it over the years, there were very few of the "top" men who reached my heart in a spiritual way and affected true Godly change in my heart during their teachings - maybe I was just hard-hearted. But in the later years for me there were two. One was a 6th corps man and the other had been ordained when he had been a mainstream denominational minister. Other than that, some teachers were comedians, some full of fury, some boring, and ocassionally someone would be truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and reach people's hearts - they were the exception.
It was human nature though to try and observe what ministry someone might have had - after all, if VP ordained them they must have had something. But over the years, I saw they didn't. In fact, they way I saw it was this: 1. Apostle - reserved for VP and VP alone. No one other than him had this one. 2. Prophet - this was a highly sought after ministry. Many rude, nasty guys had this one - because, after all, as VP taught, prophets were hard to live with and didn't take guff from anyone. 3. Evangelist - if you were good at running lots of classes on the field, you had this one. 4. Teacher - a lot of people thought they had this one, but really, it was mostly reserved for the research dept. or a couple of other revs who had a reputation. 5. Pastor. This one applied mostly the female reverends. They would spend time, talk, "counsel" and just have those healing one-on-ones with hugs. Its was the girls' ministry.
I think though, if you did make that commitment and choose to be ordained, you were TWI's for life. It was a huge commitment. I had a person come to me who had his limb leader extend the invitation to be ordained at the upcoming corps week. I told him to think carefully. He was running an area and was trying to get a career going. I told him it was an honor - but - if he accepted to forget his career - it was obvious TWI leadership had other plans for his life. He would have to give up his career. If he got ordained and later decided to still give his secular career a shot he would be ostracized and have to live with the knowledge and guilt that he was "copped out." Could he live with that? He declined the offer.
All in all, I don't think anyone ordained by VP, who I believe now was a wolf in sheeps clothing, has any business calling themselves "Reverend."
As the ministry grew and the corps grew there were many people that quite frankly, I wondered how these some of these guys were getting ordained. As I would speak to later corps men, 10th, 11th and 12th, it seemed that ordination had evolved to become a carrot on a stick - it was what the men all aspired to, it was a huge motivator that VP used. It was the highest pinnacle of success in TWI. You had arrived. I cannot tell you how many men told me they were going to run class after class on the field and get their ordination. Well alrighty then...
As I've thought about it over the years, there were very few of the "top" men who reached my heart in a spiritual way and affected true Godly change in my heart during their teachings - maybe I was just hard-hearted. But in the later years for me there were two. One was a 6th corps man and the other had been ordained when he had been a mainstream denominational minister. Other than that, some teachers were comedians, some full of fury, some boring, and ocassionally someone would be truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and reach people's hearts - they were the exception.
All in all, I don't think anyone ordained by VP, who I believe now was a wolf in sheeps clothing, has any business calling themselves "Reverend."
I don't think there is much question that there was a change that occurred with ordination. If things were aligned more with how things operated in the early church (and from my perspective now, there was a LOT more than just this issue that was badly skewed), it probably would have been far better had there been an ordination of "elders," being distinct and separate from gift ministries. Any "legit" gift ministry sure doesn't need or require any kind of public recognition or acknowledgement (i.e., ordination) for it to operate, and neither do I think it requires a gift ministry for a believer to operate or function the same as one would, should the need in a particular situation merit it.
Then again, "elders" set within the structure of the Way Tree (which I think was incorrectly fashioned after the church in Jerasulem, and wasn't fashioned after the gospel that Paul preached) would have undoubtedly encountered similar political pressure, so how much difference just that would have made is rather questionable.
Doubtfull I will spend much time on this forum in the future but let me set the record straight on my comments regarding Mr.Fugit.
I spent a wonderful evening with the man discussing numerous issues of life and not just twi, I think we were drinking long neck Point Beer, at least I was, that I kept in the basement, he was quite different than most of the twi folks that traveled through the area.
Not sure where I gave the impression that I was dissing DF but is it that I lumped him in with part of the fly in folks from twi to the area, I also recall that I noted that we were informed he was an evangelist, which he did not seem as such (like we would recognize a true gift ministery), thus bringing up his name since this forum thread started focusing on gift ministeries aside from ordination.
It seems some on GSC think I am a twi troll, no, I am not or that I am a follower of twi splinters, yes, I track that stuff and adhere to some of it but also ask questions regarding their teachings, etc., I never tried to hide that but why am I attacked for doing that?
I know that I lash out but that's mostly because of the hate (yes, "hate", is probably the correct word) of those splinter groups that gets directed at me or anyone else that may seem to have ties to the ol'e twi teachings or folks who had past association with twi.
Like I started the post in this forum thread and forum in general, I will just stay away as it's illogical to post anything that might be perceived to be pro-twi, though I am not.
I spent a lot of years observing the ordained clergy in TWI and knowing many of them personally. I can understand why VP ordained the early 1-5 corps people - he was growing an organization and needed to have trusted leaders who would carry out his wishes. He needed a structure he could work with on the "field."
That said, many of them were nice people but - looking back, I saw very few "gift ministries" at work.
<snip>
Okay.....I skimmed back thru this thread and wanted to add something that has not been mentioned.
Having been corps, and hq-staffer [5 yrs], and clergy......I was involved in plenty of corps meetings,
staff meetings and a few clergy meetings. For three years, I served as a "wedding coordinator liason"
[along with 5 others] to facilitate the planning, organization, and weddings on hq-property. I had
many occasions to brush shoulders with many fine men and women clergy.
Anyways, here is another "dimension" of the ordination/clergy aspect: On at least 4 or 5 different
occasions, wierwille keynoted the aspects of helps and governments [organization] within the
framework of ordinations. He cited and expounded on I Corinthians 12:27-31.
I Cor. 12:27-31 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,
after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Briefly, wierwille taught that this section of scripture gives a partial listing of the gift
ministries, and manifestations....while embedding "helps and governments" in the mix of
coveting earnestly a more excellent way to the edification of the Body of Christ. The full
listing of the 5 specific gift ministries is in Ephesians.
At the time, 1979 or 1980.....there were PLENTY of clergy at headquarters intricately involved
and overseeing departments like audio/video, way productions, film & photography, printing,
architecture, finance, etc.
I still have some of my clergy notes stored away in boxes. And,.....no, I have no intention
of digging thru them or defending wierwille's teaching of it. I simply bring this to mind
for those who might be trying to figure out whether or not some clergyman or clergywoman fit
into the 5 categories: 1)apostles, 2)prophets, 3)evangelists, 4)pastors, 5)teachers.
At one particular time, there was this 5th corps guy who lived in that A-tel in the way woods
and he was ordained. Some were sorta wondering why does this ordained guy stay on staff and
live isolated in the woods. Shortly after that, I remember wierwille teaching and elaborating
on its broader definition.....namely, helps and governments [organizational depth. I
vaguely seem to remember wierwille illustrating how Jesus chose the 12 [and in Bullinger's
work, Numbers in Scripture, this designates "organizational perfection"]....iirc
So, add this to the discussion.....or don't. Perhaps, there are others who will come forward
Okay.....I skimmed back thru this thread and wanted to add something that has not been mentioned.
Having been corps, and hq-staffer [5 yrs], and clergy......I was involved in plenty of corps meetings,
staff meetings and a few clergy meetings. For three years, I served as a "wedding coordinator liason"
[along with 5 others] to facilitate the planning, organization, and weddings on hq-property. I had
many occasions to brush shoulders with many fine men and women clergy.
we undoubtedly know each other...
I still have some of my clergy notes stored away in boxes. And,.....no, I have no intention
of digging thru them or defending wierwille's teaching of it. I simply bring this to mind
for those who might be trying to figure out whether or not some clergyman or clergywoman fit
into the 5 categories: 1)apostles, 2)prophets, 3)evangelists, 4)pastors, 5)teachers.
I agree that certain aspects of it weren't necessarily taught wrong, but (as attested to elsewhere here) the elevated stature (i.e., egos) and hierarchy that resulted from ordination (and the common misperceptions that flourished over what it was about) took a heavy toll.
Quote: "I agree that certain aspects of it weren't necessarily taught wrong..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My point in my last post was NOT to validate or invalidate how wierwille taught it,
but rather to point out that this ordination issue, at least according to twi,
included an expanded "dimension" to the listing of 5 gift ministries.
.
Yeah, I got that. Simply a poor choice of words on my part. It's not always easy to sort out what parts of what he taught that might be right (or closer to being right) from what resulted from it.
My personal take on the entire concept and practice of "ordination" in twit is that it was manufactured by Vic. It is completely his interpretation, or rather misinterpretation, of yet more Pauline doctrine. Twit is a Pauline church, not a Christian church IMO. "We take the place of the ABSENT CHRIST" was the definition of a SOGWAP......remember that acronym? Paul is the head of vic's "ministry" not Jesus Christ. Vic assumed the place of his fantasy of what Paul must have been like and that became the model of the mog. Then, Vic pounded away at the ultradispensationalist teaching that ONLY the Pauline Epistles and a few others (like Peter, John) are "god breathed" TO the church. EVERYTHING in their version of the bible is either TO Israel, The Gentiles, or FOR our learning. Most of the splinters teach exactly the same thing, and thus I say they are all Pauline ministries and not Christian per se.
ALL the definitions of the so-called (by vic) "5 gift ministries" allegedly listed in Ephesians are made up by vic! Please show me any place in the bible where these "definitions" are given. Show me any place in the bible where anything at all resembling twit's ordination rituals are presented as vic performed them. No one can do so. The entirety of vic's "man of gawd" fantasy is based on vic's own perverted sociopathic narcissism and his "revelatory understanding" of what Paul and gawd really meant is as good as Paul's revelation in the first century. It's all delusional folks. There is no shred of biblical or Godly "accuracy and integrity". It is simply make believe.
So, I place absolute no credence, biblical, spiritual, Christian, Pauline or otherwise in ANYTHING vic taught or practiced with his so called ordinations. I don't presume to have ANY "gift ministries" or "helps and governments" to or for any church. I am not a dispensationalist in my overall view of the bible, so I reject the emphatic elevation of the Pauline Epistles above the rest of scripture. I do not think Jesus Christ, nor the Heavenly Father had any more to do with twi ordinations than other ordinations in any denominations or independent churches, and really, IMO, far less.
We're there actual Christian ministers faux ordained by Vic during the course of his 40 year charade? Yes! I agree with Sunesis re: Steve Heefner, Jimmy Doop, and Donnie Fugit. They had Christ goini' on and it had absolutely nothing to do with vic or his ordination hooey. It had everything to do with God and Christ and Holy Spirit......the real deal. As for the rest of us? Who knows. It became more like a fraternity door prize than anything meaningful. Probably it was always that way, I just didn't know it. I am a Christian. No more and no less than any other Christian. I am no one special in my mind. I'm an RN, not a clergyman. I don't believe or accept one thing as truth regarding vic'n'twit's interpretation or practice of what they called "ordination to the Christian ministry". It's as real as Harry Potter to me.
Please excuse me for "butting in". Perhaps what I have to say belongs more appropriately in the Doctrinal Forum, but I'm not afraid to post it here anyways. (And I'll gladly take "whatever lumps I have coming" for doing it…Ha! Ha!)
Although I was never "ordained" by TWI, I have always considered that the operation of gift ministries is an "ongoing thing" with God, just as are the "manifestations"; and as such, he can (and does) energize these whenever (and to whomever) he wants…for his own "special reasons", according to the willingness in a person's own heart to follow through with such a thing.
Nevertheless, I do so love "patterns" in the Word; and I believe to see one here:
I've always had a fondness for things which are "numbered" in the Word. To me, these are extra-special. Many Christians already appreciate the fact that the order of the words in the Bible is perfect. So then: Consider the possible extreme importance of that which God takes the extra time to actually number in order (which is already ordered perfectly to begin with) --- To this, I say "WOW!"
With this in mind, here's something quite remarkable:
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that --- miracles. (!!!)
Please take special notice of how these gift ministries are actually numbered 1st, 2nd,and 3rd. As I've indicated above, there has to be something special about these, because they are actually numbered in order.
As a general rule, an apostle is one who brings new light to God's people. It may be old light, but is certainly new to those receiving it. (Certainly, I don't wish to put these apostles in a box, as though that's all they really do. But that you might see where I'm coming from a bit quicker, this particular attribute of an apostle speaks clearly as to the special order I'm concerned with in this verse.)
Although this apostle may surely do many other things as well, his primary function is to provide new light. By either studying the Word, or by revelation from God (or perhaps a combination of both) he may have many new things at hand which God's people have a present need of. (And do keep in mind, we just read that these apostles are mentioned as first!)
Next in order (mentioned as second) are prophets. Although (to many) an acceptable simple definition of a prophet is one who speaks for God, I would like to focus upon another of their "special traits", just as I did with the apostles. And that is, being ones who (at times, like Agabus) foretell the future, they have a particularly adept sense of timing—that is, they are guided of God about just what may happen next, and then after that, etc...in course of time.
Now consider these first two things: We have an apostle who has many new things which God wants made known to his people, and a prophet who understands just which of all those things may be needed immediately within the church, and also what would be desired just after that, etc.
We can surely understand that both the apostle and prophet might be fairly good teachers themselves; but there's "yet another in the mix" who is particularly proficient at that…and who must be the one to proclaim these truths to God's people...as only he can. (Which brings us to the third ones mentioned — the teachers!)
The teacher learns from the apostle of the wonderful things that God had recently revealed to him. And (along with the assistance and guidance of the prophet) he learns what God desires to be given to the people right away...and then what to teach next, and after that, etc.
NOW—With all of this in mind, precisely what does the verse continue on to say? "...after that, miracles..."(!!!) After what? After the process of receiving some wonderful new light, and having it taught at just the right time, and in just the right manner…we see a glimpse here that miracles will absolutely follow. (Hmmm!)
And that's not all! As we continue reading, we see: "…then gifts of healings"! Could it truly be that miracles and healings are the direct result of hearing the right Word at the right time, being taught by a man of God with a true teaching ministry?
I think there just may be something to all of this—how about you? What if we would actually dare to attempt recognizing the apostles, prophets and teachers among us...and then allow them the freedom and privilege to serve God's people the way only they can, as a powerful threefold cord—that these miracles and healings would "naturally" take place...just as it seems they should!
In times past, I've actually seen it work this way. But I'll leave it up to you all whether or not this is "truly justified" by the scriptures I've shown.
SO --- Whatcha think, my friends? Is this perhaps how God really designed it to work? And to you who have been "ordained" in times past: Have you ever seen it work in precisely this manner?
(And there is "more of this here"…beyond the healings…but I'll stop now…for brevity's sake.)
Please excuse me for "butting in". Perhaps what I have to say belongs more appropriately in the Doctrinal Forum, but I'm not afraid to post it here anyways. (And I'll gladly take "whatever lumps I have coming" for doing it…Ha! Ha!)
Interesting comment, why would there be any call to "be afraid", let alone think there might be "lumps" for posting in the "wrong" forum?
Please take special notice of how these gift ministries...
Is there soemwhere in the bible where they are called gift ministries?
As a general rule, an apostle is one who brings new light to God's people.
Are you quoting Wierwille, or is this your own conclusion? Where is this definition given in the bible?
It may be old light, but is certainly new to those receiving it.
I always thought that this phrase was Wierwille's way of getting people to view him as an apostle, since he certainly wasn't bringing any "new light"
Interesting comment, why would there be any call to "be afraid", let alone think there might be "lumps" for posting in the "wrong" forum?
Is there soemwhere in the bible where they are called gift ministries?
Are you quoting Wierwille, or is this your own conclusion? Where is this definition given in the bible?
I always thought that this phrase was Wierwille's way of getting people to view him as an apostle, since he certainly wasn't bringing any "new light"
1. The truth is: I am not afraid one damned bit, knowing that most of you here are truly wonderful folks at heart. (That was merely a figure of speech...and "lumps" was a slight attempt to be humorous: OOPS...MY BAD...Ha!) Besides, the vast majority of things said in this Topic seem to do with the past (real life) experiences of those who were (or were closely associated with) the ordained clergy of TWI, for which my comments were surely lacking.
2. "gift ministries"? Not per se, in the Scriptures. I had rather hoped you would "read between the lines" a bit more.
3. Yes. I suppose I was quoting VPW. (Not always a good thing to do here at GS, huh?) Perhaps I should work this a bit on my own, and put things in my own words...don't you think?
4. From what little I've seen here at GS thus far, it appears that VPW considered himself as the sole apostle in the Way...and in the entire world, for that matter! Hell ... who else could qualify for such a lofty title? In truth, the man was a "master plagiarizer", wasn't he? ---
If you consider my "idea" to be rubbish (or merely "without a proper foundation"), just say so...and I'll be most happy to delete the entire post. (And I'm not trying to be facetious....really!) In my heart, it's truly but a small thing for me to "prove" from the Scriptures anyway.)
All that aside, let me say that I have a lot more to learn as to what doctrines of the Way were indeed rubbish in themselves. You who have actually "served in the trenches" do see many nuances of their errors which are rather obscure to most (like myself) who merely "dabble" with Biblical research. I'm amazed at the depth of the truth I see here at GS. But there's just SO MUCH TRUTH here, that it's like being in an ocean. (It seems such a pity that "sometimes" I seem to have a larger appetite (in my mind) for many of these wonderful nuances you've all come up with --- which far exceed the actual size of my belly to contain.)
So, I'll just "muddle through" --- and try to enjoy the coffee here as best I can...while reserving some of my time for the "more important things" --- like making dinner for my wife & I sometime soon tonight ... (Ha! Ha!)
1. The truth is: I am not afraid one damned bit, knowing that most of you here are truly wonderful folks at heart. (That was merely a figure of speech...and "lumps" was a slight attempt to be humorous: OOPS...MY BAD...Ha!)
Okay, got it. I read into your comment something that wasn't there, my bad!
2. "gift ministries"? Not per se, in the Scriptures. I had rather hoped you would "read between the lines" a bit more.
Hmmm...I'm not sure there's anything between the lines to read
3. Yes. I suppose I was quoting VPW. (Not always a good thing to do here at GS, huh?)
Ha! Yes, he's not all that popular here! That's not to say that something the Vicster said was necessarily wrong, but he is certainly not considered a reliable source
If you consider my "idea" to be rubbish (or merely "without a proper foundation"), just say so...and I'll be most happy to delete the entire post. (And I'm not trying to be facetious....really!) In my heart, it's truly but a small thing for me to "prove" from the Scriptures anyway.)
I don't know if it's rubbish or not - I was just questioning select parts of what you said - and anyway, you have every right to post your opinions here, even if nobody agrees
and anyway, you have every right to post your opinions here, even if nobody agrees
True. Whether or not there's anything to be afraid of depends on how you respond to people disagreeing with you.
But disagreement really isn't a bad thing. At minimum, it provides a framework on which those nuances Spectrum mentioned can be expounded on or expanded.
And it really takes more than one person and at least a little bit of disagreement to come to greater understanding... that's how I look at it anyway.
True. Whether or not there's anything to be afraid of depends on how you respond to people disagreeing with you.
But disagreement really isn't a bad thing. At minimum, it provides a framework on which those nuances Spectrum mentioned can be expounded on or expanded.
And it really takes more than one person and at least a little bit of disagreement to come to greater understanding... that's how I look at it anyway.
Raf disagrees with me on a lot of things because our differing experiences have led to differing assumptions, but I respect Raf's critical thinking very much, and welcome his critiques of the things I write!
And I think having a beer with him would be a lot of fun!
While I don't necessarily agree with all the points you're presenting, I do appreciate the thoughtful way in which you're presenting them.
Why --- Thank You, Waysider! I do the best I know how: Right or wrong, at least you can see from my work how I came up with the stuff. And then it makes it a lot easier to "unravel it" for me, if you can! (Or better yet...perhaps what I said might even make sense enough for you to adopt it for yourself --- if it seems "finer" than what you already have, that is.)
I agree with Waysider. What you shared was thoughtful and peacefully spoken. TY!
You posted quite a bit of info, so I will just take one part and use that as a starting point in this post, if you don't mind. You posted:
"As a general rule, an apostle is one who brings new light to God's people. It may be old light, but is certainly new to those receiving it. (Certainly, I don't wish to put these apostles in a box, as though that's all they really do. But that you might see where I'm coming from a bit quicker, this particular attribute of an apostle speaks clearly as to the special order I'm concerned with in this verse.)".
As you admitted forthrightly, you are quoting Vic and Wierwille doctrine in your "definitions" of the three "gift ministries" you cover in your post. Thank you for doing so. It provides a good starting point for meaningful discussion IMO. However, can you please document those "definitions" with scripture? I think not. And THAT's why I question the logic of your entire premise. What scripture do you have to back up your premises? I see none. Unless you use all the wierwille tricks like scripture build-up, first occurrence, and how it's been used before. Which, BTW, are all plagiarized from Bullinger's How To Enjoy The Bible. ALL those wierwilleisms are NOT scriptural nor accurate. If you choose to use Way theology to make strong points for Vic's and your interpretation of what the "gift ministries" are and how they function in the Church, you will be sorely disappointed in that such teaching is spurious at best, and completely private interpretation. In case you're wondering where all vic's "gift ministry" definitions and hooey came from, it is verbatim B.G. Leonard and Bullinger. So, they are who you believe in and follow according to vic's "accurizing" their private interpretations. Is that truly your choice? Are you aware of the background of ALL of vic's "research and teaching"?
I think not.
Since we all know vic NEVER taught one ounce of "original" anything, how do you know what you believe and why, nor with whom it originated. If you choose to base your understanding and belief of scripture on Vic's plagiarized private interpretation of the works of others, then so be it. Thank god we live in America where we have the RIGHT to believe what we choose. My only suggestion to you is, do you fully know what and whom you chose to believe when it comes to the Bible? If you feel you do, awesome. But I would suggest further examination of who and what you believe and comparing that to what the Bible actually says. Then you have the luxury of determining for yourself what you believe and why. Just my 2 cents FWIW...............peace.
What's your take on what/who an Apostle is, then, DWBH?
This might be a suitable time to re-visit "all" the VPW definitions of these God-given gifts to the church.
Here's a definition of Apostle from the Bible Dictionary: Apostle which has a connotation of a person who is "sent" or "sent out" to do someone else's bidding.
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DontWorryBeHappy
MRAP: You never cease to amaze me. Sometimes I wonder if you're just playing games around here or if you are really as dense and lost as you present yourself to be. Your recent posts decrying what yo
skyrider
"Ever see a group say an Evangelist's primary function was NOT to "evangelize", but to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO EVANGELIZE? Only vpw was that shameless." Hmmm....let's just try to apply that sequence
Raf
If chockfull and I can get along, then any two Greasespot posters can get along. AmIrite?
modcat5
Ok, we're back.
Some of the comments here have gotten quite personal. I'm just going to ask that folks exercise their maturity and refrain from that conduct. I'm not pointing fingers because I assume you know who you are and what you wrote. One post that went too far was deleted. Another that arguably went too far remains for no reason other than I found it difficult to separate fair critique from unfair. On another day I would have deleted it, but then it would have seemed like choosing sides. No need. You're all adults, and I know you are able to work through it.
MRAP: If you think GSC is a cult, you are entitled to that opinion. You are entitled to express it. You couldn't be more wrong, but we are under no obligation whatsoever to explain to you how and why. We are an online community that you asked to join. We have norms and mores that have built up over more than 16 years of posting both here and on a predecessor site.
People cite their TWI credentials here to document that they know about the matters they are addressing. That's it. Being Corps or WOW or Way Disciple or Advanced Class grad doesn't win anyone any GSC points. It does help us (readers) identify those who are speaking from personal experience v. those who are relaying what they heard.
Some of what you guys have written to each other is utterly uncalled for and beneath the dignity of an adult on an internet forum. I get to decide whether the time I spent in TWI or studying the Bible was wasted, not you and not any other poster here. And if you do not know my career or my level of success in it, you have zero moral right to disparage my life on or off this board. Seriously, act your age.
For the record, mine us under 50, and I am seriously not an angry person. But I can get riled up with the best of them, like the rest of them.
A couple of other things.
1. Please stay on topic. If a thread is dedicated to a certain topic (like the REV Bible), then discuss the topic on that thread. Please don't ask someone on one thread to defend what he said on a different thread unless you are somehow relating the other thread to this one.
2. Some of us have identities that are completely secret on this forum. Others (like me) are completely open about who we are. And some, like DWBH, treat their ID as an open secret. As far as posting on the forum is concerned, we ask everyone to respect each other's self-identification by addressing them by their screen name and only by their screen name. Actually, that's more than an ask. Seriously, don't out anyone unless you KNOW for a FACT they are ok with it.
I can't think of anything else other than to say play nice and stick to the topic.
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TLC
I'd agree that certainly happened at TWI. The other thing is, why ordain so many? Were there really that many people dying or getting married? Anyone can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but VPW himself said (in essence, these are not exact words) that those were the two things that ordination allowed you to do.
In other words, if you didn't want to marry or burry people, you might not want to be ordained.
Yet, how many were? Seems skewed a bit out of proportion for the numbers that were in it.
Aye, but it was "the ticket" to advance in stature among the rank and file.
The "public recognition" that you were... well, enough of that.
It's made me wonder how it really was in the first century, outside the hierarchy and those "who seemed to be somewhat" at Jerusalem.
Yes, I see that Titus was to "ordain elders" in every city (as is also mentioned in Acts 14). But, where is it written in scripture that elders have gift ministries, or visa versa? Has anybody that has given some honest thought to this care to comment on it?
I'm inclined to think that 2Cor.12 probably aligns with that period of time he was being dragged out of Lystra, which is why he couldn't say whether he was "in the body or out of the body" (which had just been beaten to a pulp.) Couldn't say, 'cause he probably didn't know if he was alive or dead at the time.
Amen.
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chockfull
Amen brother
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Sunesis
I spent a lot of years observing the ordained clergy in TWI and knowing many of them personally. I can understand why VP ordained the early 1-5 corps people - he was growing an organization and needed to have trusted leaders who would carry out his wishes. He needed a structure he could work with on the "field."
That said, many of them were nice people but - looking back, I saw very few "gift ministries" at work. Although I will say, I do believe Steve Heefner, Jim Dopp, Donnie Fugit and a few others did have true, Godly ministries. I'm sure there were others but I did not personally know them. In fact in the years after that, during my time in the corps and on staff, there was only one person that I believed God showed me that they had a ministry and what it was - and she was a female who was never ordained by TWI. And I didn't tell her until 20 years later.
As the ministry grew and the corps grew there were many people that quite frankly, I wondered how these some of these guys were getting ordained. As I would speak to later corps men, 10th, 11th and 12th, it seemed that ordination had evolved to become a carrot on a stick - it was what the men all aspired to, it was a huge motivator that VP used. It was the highest pinnacle of success in TWI. You had arrived. I cannot tell you how many men told me they were going to run class after class on the field and get their ordination. Well alrighty then...
As I've thought about it over the years, there were very few of the "top" men who reached my heart in a spiritual way and affected true Godly change in my heart during their teachings - maybe I was just hard-hearted. But in the later years for me there were two. One was a 6th corps man and the other had been ordained when he had been a mainstream denominational minister. Other than that, some teachers were comedians, some full of fury, some boring, and ocassionally someone would be truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and reach people's hearts - they were the exception.
It was human nature though to try and observe what ministry someone might have had - after all, if VP ordained them they must have had something. But over the years, I saw they didn't. In fact, they way I saw it was this: 1. Apostle - reserved for VP and VP alone. No one other than him had this one. 2. Prophet - this was a highly sought after ministry. Many rude, nasty guys had this one - because, after all, as VP taught, prophets were hard to live with and didn't take guff from anyone. 3. Evangelist - if you were good at running lots of classes on the field, you had this one. 4. Teacher - a lot of people thought they had this one, but really, it was mostly reserved for the research dept. or a couple of other revs who had a reputation. 5. Pastor. This one applied mostly the female reverends. They would spend time, talk, "counsel" and just have those healing one-on-ones with hugs. Its was the girls' ministry.
I think though, if you did make that commitment and choose to be ordained, you were TWI's for life. It was a huge commitment. I had a person come to me who had his limb leader extend the invitation to be ordained at the upcoming corps week. I told him to think carefully. He was running an area and was trying to get a career going. I told him it was an honor - but - if he accepted to forget his career - it was obvious TWI leadership had other plans for his life. He would have to give up his career. If he got ordained and later decided to still give his secular career a shot he would be ostracized and have to live with the knowledge and guilt that he was "copped out." Could he live with that? He declined the offer.
All in all, I don't think anyone ordained by VP, who I believe now was a wolf in sheeps clothing, has any business calling themselves "Reverend."
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TLC
I don't think there is much question that there was a change that occurred with ordination. If things were aligned more with how things operated in the early church (and from my perspective now, there was a LOT more than just this issue that was badly skewed), it probably would have been far better had there been an ordination of "elders," being distinct and separate from gift ministries. Any "legit" gift ministry sure doesn't need or require any kind of public recognition or acknowledgement (i.e., ordination) for it to operate, and neither do I think it requires a gift ministry for a believer to operate or function the same as one would, should the need in a particular situation merit it.
Then again, "elders" set within the structure of the Way Tree (which I think was incorrectly fashioned after the church in Jerasulem, and wasn't fashioned after the gospel that Paul preached) would have undoubtedly encountered similar political pressure, so how much difference just that would have made is rather questionable.
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Twinky
:offtopic:/> Sunesis, how nice to see you here again after a very long absence.
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MRAP
Doubtfull I will spend much time on this forum in the future but let me set the record straight on my comments regarding Mr.Fugit.
I spent a wonderful evening with the man discussing numerous issues of life and not just twi, I think we were drinking long neck Point Beer, at least I was, that I kept in the basement, he was quite different than most of the twi folks that traveled through the area.
Not sure where I gave the impression that I was dissing DF but is it that I lumped him in with part of the fly in folks from twi to the area, I also recall that I noted that we were informed he was an evangelist, which he did not seem as such (like we would recognize a true gift ministery), thus bringing up his name since this forum thread started focusing on gift ministeries aside from ordination.
It seems some on GSC think I am a twi troll, no, I am not or that I am a follower of twi splinters, yes, I track that stuff and adhere to some of it but also ask questions regarding their teachings, etc., I never tried to hide that but why am I attacked for doing that?
I know that I lash out but that's mostly because of the hate (yes, "hate", is probably the correct word) of those splinter groups that gets directed at me or anyone else that may seem to have ties to the ol'e twi teachings or folks who had past association with twi.
Like I started the post in this forum thread and forum in general, I will just stay away as it's illogical to post anything that might be perceived to be pro-twi, though I am not.
Might catch you on the doctrinal forum.
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Steve Lortz
Ditto!
Love,
Steve
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skyrider
Okay.....I skimmed back thru this thread and wanted to add something that has not been mentioned.
Having been corps, and hq-staffer [5 yrs], and clergy......I was involved in plenty of corps meetings,
staff meetings and a few clergy meetings. For three years, I served as a "wedding coordinator liason"
[along with 5 others] to facilitate the planning, organization, and weddings on hq-property. I had
many occasions to brush shoulders with many fine men and women clergy.
Anyways, here is another "dimension" of the ordination/clergy aspect: On at least 4 or 5 different
occasions, wierwille keynoted the aspects of helps and governments [organization] within the
framework of ordinations. He cited and expounded on I Corinthians 12:27-31.
I Cor. 12:27-31 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,
after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Briefly, wierwille taught that this section of scripture gives a partial listing of the gift
ministries, and manifestations....while embedding "helps and governments" in the mix of
coveting earnestly a more excellent way to the edification of the Body of Christ. The full
listing of the 5 specific gift ministries is in Ephesians.
At the time, 1979 or 1980.....there were PLENTY of clergy at headquarters intricately involved
and overseeing departments like audio/video, way productions, film & photography, printing,
architecture, finance, etc.
I still have some of my clergy notes stored away in boxes. And,.....no, I have no intention
of digging thru them or defending wierwille's teaching of it. I simply bring this to mind
for those who might be trying to figure out whether or not some clergyman or clergywoman fit
into the 5 categories: 1)apostles, 2)prophets, 3)evangelists, 4)pastors, 5)teachers.
At one particular time, there was this 5th corps guy who lived in that A-tel in the way woods
and he was ordained. Some were sorta wondering why does this ordained guy stay on staff and
live isolated in the woods. Shortly after that, I remember wierwille teaching and elaborating
on its broader definition.....namely, helps and governments [organizational depth. I
vaguely seem to remember wierwille illustrating how Jesus chose the 12 [and in Bullinger's
work, Numbers in Scripture, this designates "organizational perfection"]....iirc
So, add this to the discussion.....or don't. Perhaps, there are others who will come forward
with more information on this.
Oh, and.......hi Sunesis.
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TLC
we undoubtedly know each other...
I agree that certain aspects of it weren't necessarily taught wrong, but (as attested to elsewhere here) the elevated stature (i.e., egos) and hierarchy that resulted from ordination (and the common misperceptions that flourished over what it was about) took a heavy toll.
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skyrider
Quote: "I agree that certain aspects of it weren't necessarily taught wrong..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My point in my last post was NOT to validate or invalidate how wierwille taught it,
but rather to point out that this ordination issue, at least according to twi,
included an expanded "dimension" to the listing of 5 gift ministries.
.
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TLC
Yeah, I got that. Simply a poor choice of words on my part. It's not always easy to sort out what parts of what he taught that might be right (or closer to being right) from what resulted from it.
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DontWorryBeHappy
My personal take on the entire concept and practice of "ordination" in twit is that it was manufactured by Vic. It is completely his interpretation, or rather misinterpretation, of yet more Pauline doctrine. Twit is a Pauline church, not a Christian church IMO. "We take the place of the ABSENT CHRIST" was the definition of a SOGWAP......remember that acronym? Paul is the head of vic's "ministry" not Jesus Christ. Vic assumed the place of his fantasy of what Paul must have been like and that became the model of the mog. Then, Vic pounded away at the ultradispensationalist teaching that ONLY the Pauline Epistles and a few others (like Peter, John) are "god breathed" TO the church. EVERYTHING in their version of the bible is either TO Israel, The Gentiles, or FOR our learning. Most of the splinters teach exactly the same thing, and thus I say they are all Pauline ministries and not Christian per se.
ALL the definitions of the so-called (by vic) "5 gift ministries" allegedly listed in Ephesians are made up by vic! Please show me any place in the bible where these "definitions" are given. Show me any place in the bible where anything at all resembling twit's ordination rituals are presented as vic performed them. No one can do so. The entirety of vic's "man of gawd" fantasy is based on vic's own perverted sociopathic narcissism and his "revelatory understanding" of what Paul and gawd really meant is as good as Paul's revelation in the first century. It's all delusional folks. There is no shred of biblical or Godly "accuracy and integrity". It is simply make believe.
So, I place absolute no credence, biblical, spiritual, Christian, Pauline or otherwise in ANYTHING vic taught or practiced with his so called ordinations. I don't presume to have ANY "gift ministries" or "helps and governments" to or for any church. I am not a dispensationalist in my overall view of the bible, so I reject the emphatic elevation of the Pauline Epistles above the rest of scripture. I do not think Jesus Christ, nor the Heavenly Father had any more to do with twi ordinations than other ordinations in any denominations or independent churches, and really, IMO, far less.
We're there actual Christian ministers faux ordained by Vic during the course of his 40 year charade? Yes! I agree with Sunesis re: Steve Heefner, Jimmy Doop, and Donnie Fugit. They had Christ goini' on and it had absolutely nothing to do with vic or his ordination hooey. It had everything to do with God and Christ and Holy Spirit......the real deal. As for the rest of us? Who knows. It became more like a fraternity door prize than anything meaningful. Probably it was always that way, I just didn't know it. I am a Christian. No more and no less than any other Christian. I am no one special in my mind. I'm an RN, not a clergyman. I don't believe or accept one thing as truth regarding vic'n'twit's interpretation or practice of what they called "ordination to the Christian ministry". It's as real as Harry Potter to me.
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Sunesis
DWBH - I will never forget your teaching to our corps on a class you did on the Temple. It was amazing.
Frat doorprize - LOL!
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spectrum49
Please excuse me for "butting in". Perhaps what I have to say belongs more appropriately in the Doctrinal Forum, but I'm not afraid to post it here anyways. (And I'll gladly take "whatever lumps I have coming" for doing it…Ha! Ha!)
Although I was never "ordained" by TWI, I have always considered that the operation of gift ministries is an "ongoing thing" with God, just as are the "manifestations"; and as such, he can (and does) energize these whenever (and to whomever) he wants…for his own "special reasons", according to the willingness in a person's own heart to follow through with such a thing.
Nevertheless, I do so love "patterns" in the Word; and I believe to see one here:
I've always had a fondness for things which are "numbered" in the Word. To me, these are extra-special. Many Christians already appreciate the fact that the order of the words in the Bible is perfect. So then: Consider the possible extreme importance of that which God takes the extra time to actually number in order (which is already ordered perfectly to begin with) --- To this, I say "WOW!"
With this in mind, here's something quite remarkable:
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that --- miracles. (!!!)
Please take special notice of how these gift ministries are actually numbered 1st, 2nd,and 3rd. As I've indicated above, there has to be something special about these, because they are actually numbered in order.
As a general rule, an apostle is one who brings new light to God's people. It may be old light, but is certainly new to those receiving it. (Certainly, I don't wish to put these apostles in a box, as though that's all they really do. But that you might see where I'm coming from a bit quicker, this particular attribute of an apostle speaks clearly as to the special order I'm concerned with in this verse.)
Although this apostle may surely do many other things as well, his primary function is to provide new light. By either studying the Word, or by revelation from God (or perhaps a combination of both) he may have many new things at hand which God's people have a present need of. (And do keep in mind, we just read that these apostles are mentioned as first!)
Next in order (mentioned as second) are prophets. Although (to many) an acceptable simple definition of a prophet is one who speaks for God, I would like to focus upon another of their "special traits", just as I did with the apostles. And that is, being ones who (at times, like Agabus) foretell the future, they have a particularly adept sense of timing—that is, they are guided of God about just what may happen next, and then after that, etc...in course of time.
Now consider these first two things: We have an apostle who has many new things which God wants made known to his people, and a prophet who understands just which of all those things may be needed immediately within the church, and also what would be desired just after that, etc.
We can surely understand that both the apostle and prophet might be fairly good teachers themselves; but there's "yet another in the mix" who is particularly proficient at that…and who must be the one to proclaim these truths to God's people...as only he can. (Which brings us to the third ones mentioned — the teachers!)
The teacher learns from the apostle of the wonderful things that God had recently revealed to him. And (along with the assistance and guidance of the prophet) he learns what God desires to be given to the people right away...and then what to teach next, and after that, etc.
NOW—With all of this in mind, precisely what does the verse continue on to say? "...after that, miracles..."(!!!) After what? After the process of receiving some wonderful new light, and having it taught at just the right time, and in just the right manner…we see a glimpse here that miracles will absolutely follow. (Hmmm!)
And that's not all! As we continue reading, we see: "…then gifts of healings"! Could it truly be that miracles and healings are the direct result of hearing the right Word at the right time, being taught by a man of God with a true teaching ministry?
I think there just may be something to all of this—how about you? What if we would actually dare to attempt recognizing the apostles, prophets and teachers among us...and then allow them the freedom and privilege to serve God's people the way only they can, as a powerful threefold cord—that these miracles and healings would "naturally" take place...just as it seems they should!
In times past, I've actually seen it work this way. But I'll leave it up to you all whether or not this is "truly justified" by the scriptures I've shown.
SO --- Whatcha think, my friends? Is this perhaps how God really designed it to work? And to you who have been "ordained" in times past: Have you ever seen it work in precisely this manner?
(And there is "more of this here"…beyond the healings…but I'll stop now…for brevity's sake.)
Spec
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Oakspear
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spectrum49
1. The truth is: I am not afraid one damned bit, knowing that most of you here are truly wonderful folks at heart. (That was merely a figure of speech...and "lumps" was a slight attempt to be humorous: OOPS...MY BAD...Ha!) Besides, the vast majority of things said in this Topic seem to do with the past (real life) experiences of those who were (or were closely associated with) the ordained clergy of TWI, for which my comments were surely lacking.
2. "gift ministries"? Not per se, in the Scriptures. I had rather hoped you would "read between the lines" a bit more.
3. Yes. I suppose I was quoting VPW. (Not always a good thing to do here at GS, huh?) Perhaps I should work this a bit on my own, and put things in my own words...don't you think?
4. From what little I've seen here at GS thus far, it appears that VPW considered himself as the sole apostle in the Way...and in the entire world, for that matter! Hell ... who else could qualify for such a lofty title? In truth, the man was a "master plagiarizer", wasn't he? ---
If you consider my "idea" to be rubbish (or merely "without a proper foundation"), just say so...and I'll be most happy to delete the entire post. (And I'm not trying to be facetious....really!) In my heart, it's truly but a small thing for me to "prove" from the Scriptures anyway.)
All that aside, let me say that I have a lot more to learn as to what doctrines of the Way were indeed rubbish in themselves. You who have actually "served in the trenches" do see many nuances of their errors which are rather obscure to most (like myself) who merely "dabble" with Biblical research. I'm amazed at the depth of the truth I see here at GS. But there's just SO MUCH TRUTH here, that it's like being in an ocean. (It seems such a pity that "sometimes" I seem to have a larger appetite (in my mind) for many of these wonderful nuances you've all come up with --- which far exceed the actual size of my belly to contain.)
So, I'll just "muddle through" --- and try to enjoy the coffee here as best I can...while reserving some of my time for the "more important things" --- like making dinner for my wife & I sometime soon tonight ... (Ha! Ha!)
Spec
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Oakspear
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Rocky
True. Whether or not there's anything to be afraid of depends on how you respond to people disagreeing with you.
But disagreement really isn't a bad thing. At minimum, it provides a framework on which those nuances Spectrum mentioned can be expounded on or expanded.
And it really takes more than one person and at least a little bit of disagreement to come to greater understanding... that's how I look at it anyway.
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waysider
Spec
While I don't necessarily agree with all the points you're presenting, I do appreciate the thoughtful way in which you're presenting them.
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Steve Lortz
Raf disagrees with me on a lot of things because our differing experiences have led to differing assumptions, but I respect Raf's critical thinking very much, and welcome his critiques of the things I write!
And I think having a beer with him would be a lot of fun!
Love,
Steve
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spectrum49
Why --- Thank You, Waysider! I do the best I know how: Right or wrong, at least you can see from my work how I came up with the stuff. And then it makes it a lot easier to "unravel it" for me, if you can! (Or better yet...perhaps what I said might even make sense enough for you to adopt it for yourself --- if it seems "finer" than what you already have, that is.)
Peace, Brother!
Spec
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Spectrum49!
I agree with Waysider. What you shared was thoughtful and peacefully spoken. TY!
You posted quite a bit of info, so I will just take one part and use that as a starting point in this post, if you don't mind. You posted:
"As a general rule, an apostle is one who brings new light to God's people. It may be old light, but is certainly new to those receiving it. (Certainly, I don't wish to put these apostles in a box, as though that's all they really do. But that you might see where I'm coming from a bit quicker, this particular attribute of an apostle speaks clearly as to the special order I'm concerned with in this verse.)".
As you admitted forthrightly, you are quoting Vic and Wierwille doctrine in your "definitions" of the three "gift ministries" you cover in your post. Thank you for doing so. It provides a good starting point for meaningful discussion IMO. However, can you please document those "definitions" with scripture? I think not. And THAT's why I question the logic of your entire premise. What scripture do you have to back up your premises? I see none. Unless you use all the wierwille tricks like scripture build-up, first occurrence, and how it's been used before. Which, BTW, are all plagiarized from Bullinger's How To Enjoy The Bible. ALL those wierwilleisms are NOT scriptural nor accurate. If you choose to use Way theology to make strong points for Vic's and your interpretation of what the "gift ministries" are and how they function in the Church, you will be sorely disappointed in that such teaching is spurious at best, and completely private interpretation. In case you're wondering where all vic's "gift ministry" definitions and hooey came from, it is verbatim B.G. Leonard and Bullinger. So, they are who you believe in and follow according to vic's "accurizing" their private interpretations. Is that truly your choice? Are you aware of the background of ALL of vic's "research and teaching"?
I think not.
Since we all know vic NEVER taught one ounce of "original" anything, how do you know what you believe and why, nor with whom it originated. If you choose to base your understanding and belief of scripture on Vic's plagiarized private interpretation of the works of others, then so be it. Thank god we live in America where we have the RIGHT to believe what we choose. My only suggestion to you is, do you fully know what and whom you chose to believe when it comes to the Bible? If you feel you do, awesome. But I would suggest further examination of who and what you believe and comparing that to what the Bible actually says. Then you have the luxury of determining for yourself what you believe and why. Just my 2 cents FWIW...............peace.
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Twinky
What's your take on what/who an Apostle is, then, DWBH?
This might be a suitable time to re-visit "all" the VPW definitions of these God-given gifts to the church.
Here's a definition of Apostle from the Bible Dictionary: Apostle which has a connotation of a person who is "sent" or "sent out" to do someone else's bidding.
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