Ordination in The Way

[skyrider]

It's hard to know when it might have first started (or who first asked), as it may have only come into vogue with VPW's letter (which I seem to recall being prior to the sic corps graduation, but that might be wrong.) All were invited 3rd & earlier. Perhaps DWBH knows what the flavor of the day was with the fourth or fifth.

Click - How did the ordination of clergy thing work in twi?.....[p.58 on this forum, currently]

Post #9

hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point...........

when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california...............several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970...........

steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.........ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic..........this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet...........the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it!

the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72!

then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god..............this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class".

during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there!

when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago............this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.............my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA.

the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic................it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual..............rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................

whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace.

[MRAP]

Simple question, Donny Fugit: he was not a corp grad or ordained by vpw as far as I know but us minions/WOWs on the field were told that he was an "Evangelist", i.e. gift ministry evangelist. So, when DF came to our branch, we revered him as that and followed his lead on witnessing since he was an evangelist.

Bottom Line: did twi ordain non corp folk or simply recognize that non corp grads could have a gift ministry (am I just mixing apples and oranges?).

Back in the day, 1976, I recall that DF was a "special person", I need say no more on DF.

Question: Did/Do all corp grads get ordained? It's understood that all corp grads are not provided a gift ministry (at that time), unless God deems it but may later get the gift ministry.

Hey, I am just ignorant, non-corp folk seeking information - not like any of it matters at this point in life.

[TLC]

Click - How did the ordination of clergy thing work in twi?.....[p.58 on this forum, currently]

Post #9

This appears to incorrect:

>> then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained

While it's true that not all were ordained (at that time... as JC opted to at a later date), all were invited.

This also, DWBH probably has incorrect (though, with the amount of sarcasm in it, it's a bit difficult to interpret what he means or may have meant to say):

>> meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god

I suppose VPW probably had a different take on "gift ministries." How right or wrong some of it was or is, is debatable, and is not without a fair amount of uncertainty. More visible is the rampant hierarchy that sprang up as a result of it, and the "push" that fell on so many to catch the brass ring (or should I say, the gold dove...)

Furthermore, ordination was never some kind of prerequisite for a gift ministry, nor were any ever given or received at the time of ordination.

Even though I openly admit that I don't have or know as much as some others may know on these matters, I do know that there sure as heck was (and evidently still is) a whole lot of screwed up information floating around concerning these "gift ministries" (and if or how they operate in the body of Christ.)

[TLC]

Bottom Line: did twi ordain non corp folk or simply recognize that non corp grads could have a gift ministry (am I just mixing apples and oranges?).

And God forbid that anyone outside TWI should ever have one of these, eh?

Question: Did/Do all corp grads get ordained? It's understood that all corp grads are not provided a gift ministry (at that time), unless God deems it but may later get the gift ministry.

Hey, I am just ignorant, non-corp folk seeking information - not like any of it matters at this point in life.

Nothing gets "added" later to you (or the Christ within.)

I hesitate mentioning this, but shoot, as long as we're hanging stuff out there... VPW once said (I don't recall the exact time or place, but circa 1976), that if a person was honest on their corps application and had "leadership ability," they had a gift ministry. And don't ask me who I heard this from, I heard it straight from him. Might have been around the time they were redesigning the Corps logo. Might have been a smaller group he was talking to, I just don't remember. But I heard what I heard, and it stuck. Whether it's right or not, well, that's another matter.

(added after first posting):

To be fair, he might have added to that, that not everyone that applied for the corps was honest about it (of course, I probably didn't pay as close as attention to what followed, so I'm not sure about this part of it...)

Edited January 21, 2016 by TLC

[MRAP]

DWBH, you posted to me earlier in this thread: How many twit ordinations did you attend in your brief 5 year stint with twit from 72-77? You state you "now see it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding" I was in rez from 73-76, 3 of the 5 years of your involvement, and I never heard of ANYTHING you describe. How so?

Well DWBH, maybe you never heard of that little game cause you were in "rez" during that period and not out on the field.

Don't throw your "I be corp" or "I was in rez" stuff at me: that dog don't hunt anymore. Most of my headaches in the field came from you corp and hq folks who busted into our areas and provided their great accolades and dissed us for lack of PFAL classes and then left like a whirlwind.

I don't even remember the number of you corp folk I sponsored over the years and with only one exception did I get a thankyou.

So DWBH, you were 4th corp, that would make your interim year the summer of 1974 to summer of 1975: what did you do that interim year or did you do your "in rez" years back to back, oops, I see, you stayed at HQ,et.al. ("I was in rez from 73-76) you wrote.

So now DWBH, I understand you hung around twi for 13 years - I don't see that as any badge of honor but quite the opposite; why did it take you so long to figure out what was going on, espcially given your "in rez" view of it all.

Go for it DWBH, you wasted 8 more years of your life in twi than I did.

Actually, I am not even sure you (or TLC for that matter) were ever in the corp; so,you were 4th corp: who was Cathy G.?

[shortfuse]

DWBH, you posted to me earlier in this thread: How many twit ordinations did you attend in your brief 5 year stint with twit from 72-77? You state you "now see it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding" I was in rez from 73-76, 3 of the 5 years of your involvement, and I never heard of ANYTHING you describe. How so?

Well DWBH, maybe you never heard of that little game cause you were in "rez" during that period and not out on the field.

Don't throw your "I be corp" or "I was in rez" stuff at me: that dog don't hunt anymore. Most of my headaches in the field came from you corp and hq folks who busted into our areas and provided their great accolades and dissed us for lack of PFAL classes and then left like a whirlwind.

I don't even remember the number of you corp folk I sponsored over the years and with only one exception did I get a thankyou.

So DWBH, you were 4th corp, that would make your interim year the summer of 1974 to summer of 1975: what did you do that interim year or did you do your "in rez" years back to back, oops, I see, you stayed at HQ,et.al. ("I was in rez from 73-76) you wrote.

So now DWBH, I understand you hung around twi for 13 years - I don't see that as any badge of honor but quite the opposite; why did it take you so long to figure out what was going on, espcially given your "in rez" view of it all.

Go for it DWBH, you wasted 8 more years of your life in twi than I did.

Actually, I am not even sure you (or TLC for that matter) were ever in the corp; so,you were 4th corp: who was Cathy G.?

Um...

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Simple question, Donny Fugit: he was not a corp grad or ordained by vpw as far as I know but us minions/WOWs on the field were told that he was an "Evangelist", i.e. gift ministry evangelist. So, when DF came to our branch, we revered him as that and followed his lead on witnessing since he was an evangelist.

Bottom Line: did twi ordain non corp folk or simply recognize that non corp grads could have a gift ministry (am I just mixing apples and oranges?).

Back in the day, 1976, I recall that DF was a "special person", I need say no more on DF.

Question: Did/Do all corp grads get ordained? It's understood that all corp grads are not provided a gift ministry (at that time), unless God deems it but may later get the gift ministry.

Hey, I am just ignorant, non-corp folk seeking information - not like any of it matters at this point in life.

Donnie Fugit was a graduate of the 5th corpse. He began the twit work in Wichita, KS. He was ordained by Vic while Donnie was still in Wichita prior to coming by to HQ to coordinate the first WOWs ever in places like Greenwood, MS. IMO, Donnie was indeed a "special" guy, but not for any reasons you misinformed everyone on. Righteous ignorance?

[chockfull]

Donnie Fugit was a graduate of the 5th corpse. He began the twit work in Wichita, KS. He was ordained by Vic while Donnie was still in Wichita prior to coming by to HQ to coordinate the first WOWs ever in places like Greenwood, MS. IMO, Donnie was indeed a "special" guy, but not for any reasons you misinformed everyone on. Righteous ignorance?

donnie was a space. i loved him. he was blatantly unaware of about 90% of all rules. the last part of his life was really sad. i'll be glad to see him at the return.

[MRAP]

DWBH, if DF was 5th corp then why in the late fall of 1975 when he "visited" us (his interim corp year) were we informed (by the chain of command) that he was an "evangelist"?

I found DF to be quire personable and "non corp/hq" but he did not provide much in the area of his quoted expertise. Then again, maybe he was genuine and I only saw folks in the beer goggles of twi expectations.

Regardless, this thread is about ordination and somewhat about gift ministries, so, my question remains: was DF ordained outside of the corp and did he have a gift ministry.

It's all moot at this point, IMHO, DF was genuine and only hooked up with twi since it provided an avenue and resources for what he was destined to do/be in life. Sitting on a porch late in the evening, long after a twig, he and I spoke of many things about life goals, the more base desires of the natural man but not at all about twi, et.al.

I am not even sure why he was there - I expect there were others in the crowd he affected and I did not have a clue; as the twig leader, if it were a twi "sanctioned" type event, DF would have worked through me but if it were all genuine, then DF would just follow his gut and not follow any of the twi rules (kinda makes more sense now having thought through it years later).

DWBH, you seem to think that I miss-informed folks regarding DF = WTF are you referring to?

[HAPe4me]

DWBH, if DF was 5th corp then why in the late fall of 1975 when he "visited" us (his interim corp year) were we informed (by the chain of command) that he was an "evangelist"?

one does not need to be ordained to have a recognized gift ministry. We were all told he was TWI's greatest evangelist. In my case I heard it in 1972 when he was first introduced to me by T0mmy Cr@bb. So what?

By the way,since I know DWBH personally perhaps you will take my word for the fact that he was in the Corpse. If you had read the threads about ordination somebody linked in a previous post on this thread it would be rather obvious. Why would you question it?

[chockfull]

MRAP the genuine side I feel of all this I was taught while in was the ceremony was a public recognition while God energizes a gift by His choice

[MRAP]

The longer I hang around GSC the more patterns become observable, especially when the big guns have a "misunderstanding/difference of opinion".

Now here are observations (IMHO) boys and girls (yeh, right, we are all in our 50's and 60's):

If you have "credentials", you know: years in "rez", were in the corp, are a corp grad, twi ordained, vpw endowed with a gift ministery/s or any combination of that list you think you have "seniority/carte blanche" on GSC and the rest of us are petty minnions.

You stink of hypochrisy: you act like elletists, just like you were back in twi; you use GSC to dis twi but then vaunt your twi credentials to gain clout on GSC.

You have lost credibility and worse, if this is an "anti" twi site, you have provided twi with all the ammo it needs to show that GSC is a bunch of bickering, post twi heriticks who could not make it in twi.

Sheesh - look what egos from a bunch of old burned out folks can accomplish.

[MRAP]

one does not need to be ordained to have a recognized gift ministry. We were all told he was TWI's greatest evangelist. In my case I heard it in 1972 when he was first introduced to me by T0mmy Cr@bb. So what?

By the way,since I know DWBH personally perhaps you will take my word for the fact that he was in the Corpse. If you had read the threads about ordination somebody linked in a previous post on this thread it would be rather obvious. Why would you question it?

You said: "Corpse", was that intended or just a Freudian slip.

[Rocky]

You said: "Corpse", was that intended or just a Freudian slip.

It's from the standard GSC style sheet. ;)

The longer I hang around GSC the more patterns become observable, especially when the big guns have a "misunderstanding/difference of opinion".

Now here are observations (IMHO) boys and girls (yeh, right, we are all in our 50's and 60's):

If you have "credentials", you know: years in "rez", were in the corp, are a corp grad, twi ordained, vpw endowed with a gift ministery/s or any combination of that list you think you have "seniority/carte blanche" on GSC and the rest of us are petty minnions.

You stink of hypochrisy: you act like elletists, just like you were back in twi; you use GSC to dis twi but then vaunt your twi credentials to gain clout on GSC.

You have lost credibility and worse, if this is an "anti" twi site, you have provided twi with all the ammo it needs to show that GSC is a bunch of bickering, post twi heriticks who could not make it in twi.

Sheesh - look what egos from a bunch of old burned out folks can accomplish.

Elitism? Hardly.

Rather, confidence in ourselves and our own experiences. Nothing more, nothing less.

[MRAP]

I disagree Rocky, it is elitism, if not, then why all the tit-for-tat on credentials.

As far as that confidence thing goes, I think the veteran posters here on GSC have confidence in their twi accomplishments, time at twi and time on GSC, period.

I have said this before: GSC has become its' own little cult. That's OK but know thyself - should be easy with all the folks here that are experts on cults.

IMO, that last statement is only partially correct, most folks here are just old and angry. Some have a right to that anger, take DWBH for example, if I were him, I would also be angry for having thrown away 13 years that could and should have been better spent advancing a career. I don't mean to point out DWBH, it's just a recent example, there are numerous statements on GSC that demonstrate lost time in lives and loves.

I think most folks on GSC are good people, otherwise I would have signed out long ago. There does exist a pack mentality, I was warned about the "piling on" long ago, it's not much different then crowd control: one person throws a rock and then all throw rocks (stoning).

[Oakspear]

I think you'll find, if we took a roll call, that the GSC regulars, old guard, veterans, what-have-you, are a mixed bunch. There are a couple of posters here who I know for sure were at the "top" and had visible leadership roles, others were WOWs, some were in Fellow Laborers, some were never involved in a "program" and were never leaders of any sort. There are GSC posters who were involved in TWI for 30 years, others were barely in for a cup of (lukewarm, served in a reused stryo cup) coffee. Some of the regulars still hold onto some TWI doctrine, some are or were involved in spinoffs, some are active in mainstream churches, some are adherents of others faiths, some are atheists or agnostics.

We're hardly a pack...sometimes it seems that way, but often it's just a pack of two or three!

[waysider]

I just come here for the refreshments.

(Don't tell my twig leader.)

[WordWolf]

....and there's no distinct pattern of WHICH posters get respect.

Some of the younger, not-in-long posters get as much respect-or more-

than some posters who were all over the programs long ago.

Personally, I like anonymity. I prefer to rely on my own communications

and any facts I can bring to the table rather than any credentials

I can bring to the table.

[Rocky]

I disagree Rocky, it is elitism, if not, then why all the tit-for-tat on credentials.

As far as that confidence thing goes, I think the veteran posters here on GSC have confidence in their twi accomplishments, time at twi and time on GSC, period.

I have said this before: GSC has become its' own little cult. That's OK but know thyself - should be easy with all the folks here that are experts on cults.

IMO, that last statement is only partially correct, most folks here are just old and angry. Some have a right to that anger, take DWBH for example, if I were him, I would also be angry for having thrown away 13 years that could and should have been better spent advancing a career. I don't mean to point out DWBH, it's just a recent example, there are numerous statements on GSC that demonstrate lost time in lives and loves.

I think most folks on GSC are good people, otherwise I would have signed out long ago. There does exist a pack mentality, I was warned about the "piling on" long ago, it's not much different then crowd control: one person throws a rock and then all throw rocks (stoning).

Disagree all you want. But you cannot objectively know whether it's elitism or not.

People have cited their experience to put their comments in context. Nothing more, nothing less.

If someone is commenting on ordination in twi, there's a good chance that having graduated from the corpse will have given them more insight on it than they would otherwise have.

Btw, I didn't graduate from the corpse, though I did spend one year in residence. I'm GLAD I didn't put any more time into it than that. I certainly don't think it gives me any status.

[HAPe4me]

You said: "Corpse", was that intended or just a Freudian slip.

As Rocky already replied, it is a standard term oft used at GSC and other places by ex TWIts, both ex-corps and non-corps.

[DontWorryBeHappy]

MRAP:

You never cease to amaze me. Sometimes I wonder if you're just playing games around here or if you are really as dense and lost as you present yourself to be. Your recent posts decrying what you perceive to be a "corps/clergy" elitist group which controls this site to promote its own views, and censor counterpoint is quite paranoid. It is a site designed to tell "the other side of the story".....the documentable and adjudicated FACTS about what twit was and is. You apparently cannot accept those FACTS, or you have connections with folks who still place any value in twit's "teachings" or those of twit offshoots such as STFI, TLTF, S.O.W.E.R.S., et al. You insist upon picking fights about topics you know nothing about, and you disgrace the memory of wonderful folks like Donnie Fugit with your lies, ignorant presumptions, misinformation, and complete lack of understanding of this man or the twit ordination rituals. Are you this vapid and incoherent in all your activities of daily living, or just here? Seriously.....how incredibly thick can a person get in this country? However thick that may be, you're there MRAP.......LOL!

Between you and TLC, I'm thinking the cafe might need some air conditioning upgrades.....you know......a stronger exhaust system......oops! Sorry! Yet another corpse/cloigy elitist conspiracy uncovered! Woohoo! You got us!..........LMAO!

[HAPe4me]

...(snipped)...

If you have "credentials", you know: years in "rez", were in the corp, are a corp grad, twi ordained, vpw endowed with a gift ministery/s or any combination of that list you think you have "seniority/carte blanche" on GSC and the rest of us are petty minnions.

you are the one who consistently describes yourself as "Hey, I am just ignorant, non-corp folk seeking information"

Have you always had such low self esteem or is it a new development in your life?

You stink of hypochrisy: you act like elletists, just like you were back in twi; you use GSC to dis twi but then vaunt your twi credentials to gain clout on GSC.

aside from all the misspellings in there, your intent was clear. You don't much care for the answers you get here do you? Tough petunias

You have lost credibility and worse, if this is an "anti" twi site, you have provided twi with all the ammo it needs to show that GSC is a bunch of bickering, post twi heriticks who could not make it in twi.

So you say, but saying it does not make it true. Most of those you are addressing could, or did make it in TWI, but finally came to realize that the emperor there wore no clothes (in some cases literally) and moved on with their life, serving God's purpose in new ways. They chose not to "make it" in TWI any longer because TWI was a dung pit of lies and falsehoods and they wanted no part of it when they realized this.

Sheesh - look what egos from a bunch of old burned out folks can accomplish.

uhuh those men and women HAVE accomplished a lot both during and post TWI. What have you done?

[chockfull]

I disagree Rocky, it is elitism, if not, then why all the tit-for-tat on credentials.

As far as that confidence thing goes, I think the veteran posters here on GSC have confidence in their twi accomplishments, time at twi and time on GSC, period.

I have said this before: GSC has become its' own little cult. That's OK but know thyself - should be easy with all the folks here that are experts on cults.

IMO, that last statement is only partially correct, most folks here are just old and angry. Some have a right to that anger, take DWBH for example, if I were him, I would also be angry for having thrown away 13 years that could and should have been better spent advancing a career. I don't mean to point out DWBH, it's just a recent example, there are numerous statements on GSC that demonstrate lost time in lives and loves.

I think most folks on GSC are good people, otherwise I would have signed out long ago. There does exist a pack mentality, I was warned about the "piling on" long ago, it's not much different then crowd control: one person throws a rock and then all throw rocks (stoning).

I think you are painting with too broad a brush here - labeling and judging a bit. Each one of us has our Christian story and life story intertwined with TWI in various fashions and capacities. Each one has to deal with a very unique story and background - all intertwining with a cult. I have to go through it all in my life and sift through what is valuable and what is not, in the midst of all of my life story - what do I take out of programs, positions, classes, etc? And it is a cult, make no mistake. Switching churches doesn't cause trauma like this. I personally don't share a ton of personal details as I prefer to remain anonymous publicly, but my story is real too. I fade in and out of posting on GSC too depending on life's needs and where I'm at trying to make sense of my story.

On any kind of internet forum discussion there is a "piling on" effect, where if 2 or 3 people answer your post in a row it feels like they are ganging up. A good part of that is the actual medium we are using to communicate. Sure people are defensive too. Every one of us has been burned. I don't think there is enough connection here at GSC to say it's a cult. There is no leader, or cult personality. There are people with varying numbers of years of our lives spent in TWI yes that is true. Sometimes I think those of us that spent more of our lives in need to claim that verse in Joel about the years the worms have eaten being restored even more. And those that were ministers or leaders in TWI even more so. There is a real struggle with what all that effort and diligence and discipline for so many years accomplished in the long run in the Christian story in our lives and the body. What should I be proud of? What should I not? I guess lately I'm proud to be God's son, and that's about it. I'm also proud of my family and the support and love we've built over years and that surrounds me now when I'm down.

I had a friend recently who teaches natural horseback riding spend some time teaching myself and my daughter about the trust nature of a horse and a man relationship, how when everything works right there is absolute trust the horse has to a very small movement command of the reins. He told me this was like the relationship we should have with Christ - complete trust and response to reins. His courage and love teaching us that day kind of changed me a little, and I guess I'm trying to look to my Lord and rider a little more lately.

Anyway, I guess another point is our stories aren't done being written yet either even in our Christian growth, or personal growth as a human being for others who don't identify with Christianity any longer.

One of the interesting things your post brings up is discussing things like this - ordination - seems to divide people. You want my 100% raw thoughts on the topic? Ordination was God talking to Paul after He raised him from the dead inspiring him to go on to the next city. There were no VP invitations, BOD letters, ceremonies, salt covenant BS, little corpse seal paperweights, foot-kissing of patriarchs or matriarchs, selling your souls, or obeying edicts you don't agree with. It didn't end up in lofty positions or titles sitting in coveted circles with other Pharisees, but in famine, poverty, shipwreck, and in the end being cast out by his own people and martyred. Paul kind of gave up the BS ordination with the Pharisees for something a little more real. Reality is a lot less appealing.

And 99.8% of all the hot air circulating around this topic is exactly that.

[Raf]

If chockfull and I can get along, then any two Greasespot posters can get along. AmIrite?

[waysider]

If chockfull and I can get along, then any two Greasespot posters can get along. AmIrite?

Fo' Shizzle!