This topic is one I've thought about often since leaving TWI in 1987, and what I think is not very flattering to VPW or to organized religion.
I was in the second Corps which graduated in 1973, and I married a second Corps man. The 10 second Corps men were ordained in 1974 after one year of experience on the field. Later, when the third Corps (men and some women) were going to be ordained, VPW wrote a letter to the second Corps women, the married and the unmarried, and asked us whether we, too, felt we wanted to accept the ordination status.
Some women did, I did not. I told VPW that my husband's ordination was sufficient...I was his helpmeet. Ah yes, the dutiful wife...
I no longer subscribe to Christianity, so that colors my views considerably, I know. I view the ordination phenomenon from a distance now, so like the outsider that I am, I wonder why the procedure is necessary at all. I think it plays into the hierarchical structure of organized spirituality that lauds one person above another. I believe in equal access. I think everyone is responsible for their own "spiritual" lives, and having ordained ministers around weakens that ability, makes people think they NEED a clergyman to be their spiritual overseer, to be their spiritual leader, to tell them what is right. Really?
As far as I understand ordinations, the Apostle Paul began the tradition, and since I consider him, well, very sincere but a man who formed his own religion believing he was doing it the way his "God" wanted him to, I think ordinations feed into a hierarchical structure and create results that are not useful to people, like the belief that an ordained person is more valuable to "God," or more "spiritual" etc.
Example. Last year I attended a dinner party with about ten other people. The host couple invited their neighbor (and wife), who was also their church minister. We were all sitting around the living room eating appetizers etc. and talking like peers when suddenly, right before we got up to eat, the hostess said the neighbor was going to pray. Suddenly a hierarchical atmosphere appeared out of nowhere like a stray cloud!
What I am NOT saying:
I am not saying that ordained people do not genuinely love others, help them (like sitting up all night with someone suicidal), etc. but un-ordained people do those things, too. And some ordained people should not do them. Many times they should send people to mental health counselors.
I am not saying we should not seek counsel from people wiser than ourselves on a given subject in life. But how do we designate that wisdom?
I am not disrespecting people who were/are ordained in TWI. I know many of them and they are good people. I'm just expressing my opinion -- that the ritual of ordination conducted by VPW in TWI was a show performed to shore-up VPW's ego, and possibly the ego of some of his clergy. I said SOME not ALL.
I think VPW wanted to compete with Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, etc, and denominations in general to make TWI look like a real ministry with real ministers. Since I now view VPW as a fraud, I have difficulty valuing his ordinations. Were they simply trappings to make his cult appear respectable?
Let me repeat, my opinions are not meant to disparage the people who are/were ordained. They each have their own conscience to deal with on this. I just question the value of the whole process, whether it is inside or outside of TWI.
As for what we were told ordination was - it was explained something like: it was making publically known what was already spiritually "operating" in the person, what that person's God-given ministries were, described something like "long-suits" or abilities they had more than other people did. Something like that...
Penworks did a good job of describing ordination from inside the organization, and, indeed any organization. She aptly described things from inside twi or another “church”.This is an instance of one brush not painting all boards. I think we should look at society's take on it.
Ordination permits individuals to go places where ordinary non-ordained folks cannot go such as certain places in hospitals and even all places at non-visiting hours. Even those who don't subscribe to prayer for healing, would often like their pastor there with them sometimes. Catholic Priests and Jewish Rabbis have such permissions, why not others.Also, anyone who is Ordained in any religion can preside at weddings, funerals, etc. (I know one may obtain a certificate on the web).
I admit I've known some who were ordained in twi who didn't really meet the standards, but, I've also known a few who did! I also know several other ordained individuals who met the standard according to Scripture ….you could see it immediately by their lives and their churches.
I was never WC or ordained, and was just a mere humble peon of a believer. However, I was always told that someone who was ordained was ordained because God revealed to the powers that be that the ordainee had a gift ministry.
I was never WC or ordained, and was just a mere humble peon of a believer. However, I was always told that someone who was ordained was ordained because God revealed to the powers that be that the ordainee had a gift ministry.
You know, I heard that too, but never from anyone at the top
I was never WC or ordained, and was just a mere humble peon of a believer. However, I was always told that someone who was ordained was ordained because God revealed to the powers that be that the ordainee had a gift ministry.
It was a commonly held belief in the mid 1970's that ordination was reserved for those with gift ministries. Whenever we heard of someone being ordained we would try to guess their gift ministry. I don't know where the idea came from but I suspect it had something to do with the gift ministry teaching in PFAL.
Yes,waysider, that was a commonly played game: Guess the Gift Ministry. Now I see that it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding. There were some obvious winners: teachers and preachers but the prophets, aposteles and espeacially the evangelists never showed. Oh, recall, there were also double gift minestriest awarded (never got the daily double).
Yes,waysider, that was a commonly played game: Guess the Gift Ministry. Now I see that it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding. There were some obvious winners: teachers and preachers but the prophets, aposteles and espeacially the evangelists never showed. Oh, recall, there were also double gift minestriest awarded (never got the daily double).
So then MRAP, in your current view, do you believe jalvis, gerry
wrenn, walter cummins, chris geer, beence finnegan, michael rood, to name just a scant few are genuinely ordained because they were ordained by vic himself?
Do you believe they have "gift ministries" to the Church? What's your "Guess the Gift Ministry" radar telling you about these guys. How about John Schoenheit?
Mark Graeser? Who ordained all these guys? What legitimately accredited seminaries did they attend? What training in Ministry, Homiletics, Pastoral Counseling, or Divinity have they had outside of the meaningless halls of twit or their own made up ordination rituals, doctrines, and "future leadership"? Which of the people I listed above was or still is "the real deal" in your opinion? How many twit ordinations did you attend in your brief 5 year stint with twit from 72-77? You state you "now see it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding" I was in rez from 73-76, 3 of the 5 years of your involvement, and I never heard of ANYTHING you describe. How so?
You also said you have great interest in the TLTF & STFI ministries because of lynn and schoenheit. Especially you mentioned Schoenheit's REV. What convinces you today that these guys and their "ministries" are worthy of the respect you grant them? Neither has ANY ministerial, academic, scholastic or theological credentials outside of twit, or some other phony self-ordained and self -accredited bible outfit. The core of their "accredited credentials" is only what they bought from twit and the meaningless "sheepskins" they threw around to anybody and everybody who came up with enough "tuition, room, and board" to buy one. Does their twit ordination and "education" still hold for them today in your eyes? Or, looking back now is that all still "a game"?
When I said we tried to guess the gift ministry, I didn't mean to imply it was some sort of game. That seems to suggest we had a cavalier attitude about it. We did not. We considered it to be a serious and solemn event. I apologize for not stating it more clearly.
Thanks Waysider, but I did not get the "game" idea from your post. My post was addressed to MRAP. He said that he during the years 72-77 was "encouraged" to play the "Guess the Gift Ministry game", because they were taught that if they guessed correctly they had proven themselves to be somehow better, or more mature, or spiritually understanding believers. I was there before during and after 72-77, even getting ordained myself in 77. Yet, I never heard of any game like this. Hence my pertinent questions to MRAP. Then MRAP lists his version of the ministries as listed in Ephesians, and includes "preachers" among them. I never heard of that one either. Maybe he meant "pastors"? Either way, he said that "teachers and preachers" were the two most common gift ministries in his long and storied twit experience. There's just a bit too much cognitive dissonance in that post which is not at all helped by the spelling and grammatical errors which make deciphering the meaning of the content more difficult.
With all of MRAP's hype on that other thread in the open forum thread regarding the laughable REV produced by Schoenheit and his STFI along with Jalvis and TLTF, demanding that the discussion be moved to the doctrinal threads so that the incredible credibility of Schoenheit's textual research, critical textual translation skills in all dem dere languages can be accurately and thoroughly debated and proven or disproven by everyone except schoenheit himself? Why would any serious student of the Bible and textual criticism ever think to even read that REV?
Who were the translators? What are the translation credentials and in which languages? Who were the editors? Who did the critical peer reviews? Who are Schoenheit's and Lynn's "peers"?
Nobody in the REAL world of biblical textual criticism, translation, and MSS editing, compilation, selection and determination of authenticity ever heard of these twits. How come their work is so outstanding to you? Is it their spelling? Grammar? Scores of years in biblical academia, MS collection, textual research, textual criticism, expertise in Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, Latin?
Those are my questions and reasons for asking them MRAP. I feel a response from you is necessary. TY for your time.
But what were you guys who were ordained in The Way told it [ordination] was all about?
and I'd be interested on your take on what you'd been told it was about. What you expected to be doing (outside of what the reality was). Where and how you expected to minister to Wayfers. Did you think you'd be taken seriously by non-Way ordained ministers? What were your expectations of this role?
I have already posted several times, in detail what twit doctrine and practice regarding Vic's self-manufactured Ordination rituals, both here at Greasespot and at the WC FB Group. I do not have the time right now to either look for them for you nor re-write them. It's always so enlightening and interesting to hear from you from "across the pond". Really love hearing how you Brits view and understand the same circumstances and news events we yanks see here.
"hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point...........
when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california.
several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970...........
steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.
ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic.
this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet.
the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it!
the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72!
then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god.
this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class".
during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there!
when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago.
this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.
my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA.
the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic.
it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual.
rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................
whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace. "
"Rev" gerry was in da 2nd corpse with Charlene and his first wife, Su3 Wil$on. He runs the single most smarmy, over-schmalzed, wierwille worship offshoot of them all, imo. As a matter of fact, just today, on his FB page, he was trying to pull off a repeat as the mighty east coast USA hurricane stopper by "rebuking" Joaquin from the Carolina and Virginia coasts. When he was the limp coordinator in FL, he claimed to have surrounded the entire state of FL with a "ring of angels" to protect God's people,(and nobody else) from one of those big hurricanes like Andrew or Ivan or some such. Always made me scratch my head in disbelief when jerks like dictor paul and his faithful son, "rev" gerry would "glorify Gawd" with tales of how "every house in the neighborhood was blown or flooded away EXCEPT for where the deluded wayfers lived because of their super-powerful, rightly-divided, christ-in-you, believing prayers. And, then take credit for "how much worse it would have been for all those poor, sub-human natural men and unbelievers had it not been for that ring of angels "rev" gerry commanded into action in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen! See why you should keep sending me your $$?? So, in effect, "rev" gerry et al are teaching the mind numbed ex-wayfers that, the love of God in the renewed in manifestation DOES INDEED rejoice in iniquity!"
Just thought the GSC community might be interested in examining today's latest from "rev" gerry himself. Judge for yourself and tell us all what you think. I am most interested in your thoughts, opinions, and emotions when you read it. TY. Pray for my son please. His fantasy football teams are getting crunched on this longest NFL game day evah!
"Dearly beloved, it is Sunday and we are still here, Joaquin or not. We can still pray for our brethren along the coast and the resulting flooding from the hurricane.
From our exalted position in Christ in the spiritual realm, we can exercise the mighty power entrusted to us for good, for deliverance.
Ephesians 3:20 WT
Now to Him Who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we request or think about, according to the power that works in us,
In Christ, we are complete, filled to the full. We are strengthened with the power of his spirit. It is all in all of us. Because of this, we can be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his exerted ability for us.
Our Father blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm in Christ. We are seated there in Christ, we walk in this realm, and we must stand in this realm as the mighty sons of God we are. The day is swiftly coming that we will stand there when our Lord returns for us.
Our wrestling is in the spiritual realm beloved, against the strategies of the god of this world, the devil, and against the spirits of wickedness in the heavenly realm - not against the senses realm. As we would train if we were in a physical wrestling match, we must train to compete in the wrestling match in the spiritual realm. Ephesians 6:10 and following lays it out for us.
The key to igniting the power of God in us is the renewing of the mind: thinking God’s thoughts so we can prove His will, believing God’s Word concerning who we are in Christ so we are able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the wicked one, standing in the contest in which we wrestle.
Beloved, look at situations from God’s perspective, from His vantage point in the heavenly realm.
We are enabled men and women in Christ. Pray always with every prayer in the spirit and stay on watch with all perseverance concerning them for all saints.
Dear ones, exercise yourself unto godliness: that real, true, vital, spiritual relationship with God in the spiritual realm."
"hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point...........
when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california.
several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970...........
steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.
ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic.
this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet.
the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it!
the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72!
then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god.
this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class".
during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there!
when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago.
this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.
my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA.
the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic.
it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual.
rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................
whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace. "
Hi, it's Charlene here, just to say that this account nails the phenomenon. Thank you, DWBH. Just one little change.. The Second Corps men were ordained after one year on the field post graduation. So graduation was '73, ordination was '74.
"Rev" gerry was in da 2nd corpse with Charlene and his first wife, Su3 Wil$on. He runs the single most smarmy, over-schmalzed, wierwille worship offshoot of them all, imo. As a matter of fact, just today, on his FB page, he was trying to pull off a repeat as the mighty east coast USA hurricane stopper by "rebuking" Joaquin from the Carolina and Virginia coasts. When he was the limp coordinator in FL, he claimed to have surrounded the entire state of FL with a "ring of angels" to protect God's people,(and nobody else) from one of those big hurricanes like Andrew or Ivan or some such. Always made me scratch my head in disbelief when jerks like dictor paul and his faithful son, "rev" gerry would "glorify Gawd" with tales of how "every house in the neighborhood was blown or flooded away EXCEPT for where the deluded wayfers lived because of their super-powerful, rightly-divided, christ-in-you, believing prayers. And, then take credit for "how much worse it would have been for all those poor, sub-human natural men and unbelievers had it not been for that ring of angels "rev" gerry commanded into action in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen! See why you should keep sending me your $?? So, in effect, "rev" gerry et al are teaching the mind numbed ex-wayfers that, the love of God in the renewed in manifestation DOES INDEED rejoice in iniquity!"
Just thought the GSC community might be interested in examining today's latest from "rev" gerry himself. Judge for yourself and tell us all what you think. I am most interested in your thoughts, opinions, and emotions when you read it. TY. Pray for my son please. His fantasy football teams are getting crunched on this longest NFL game day evah!
"Dearly beloved, it is Sunday and we are still here, Joaquin or not. We can still pray for our brethren along the coast and the resulting flooding from the hurricane.
From our exalted position in Christ in the spiritual realm, we can exercise the mighty power entrusted to us for good, for deliverance.
Ephesians 3:20 WT
Now to Him Who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we request or think about, according to the power that works in us,
In Christ, we are complete, filled to the full. We are strengthened with the power of his spirit. It is all in all of us. Because of this, we can be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his exerted ability for us.
Our Father blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm in Christ. We are seated there in Christ, we walk in this realm, and we must stand in this realm as the mighty sons of God we are. The day is swiftly coming that we will stand there when our Lord returns for us.
Our wrestling is in the spiritual realm beloved, against the strategies of the god of this world, the devil, and against the spirits of wickedness in the heavenly realm - not against the senses realm. As we would train if we were in a physical wrestling match, we must train to compete in the wrestling match in the spiritual realm. Ephesians 6:10 and following lays it out for us.
The key to igniting the power of God in us is the renewing of the mind: thinking God's thoughts so we can prove His will, believing God's Word concerning who we are in Christ so we are able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the wicked one, standing in the contest in which we wrestle.
Beloved, look at situations from God's perspective, from His vantage point in the heavenly realm.
We are enabled men and women in Christ. Pray always with every prayer in the spirit and stay on watch with all perseverance concerning them for all saints.
Dear ones, exercise yourself unto godliness: that real, true, vital, spiritual relationship with God in the spiritual realm."
Well, all I can say is: this is a broken record of VPW self-serving rhetoric.
Thanks, WordWolf, for posting the link to the "How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?" thread! When I started reading it, I thought "How did I miss all this?" and then I looked at the dates. During that time I was recovering at home from a massive hernia repair surgery, and I didn't have a computer at home yet.
What an eye-opener in oh so many ways!
Thanks DontWorryBeHappy for all the history you've filled us in on. I didn't get involved with TWI until 1980, and I often wondered what it must have been like in the days TWI was growing into what it had become by the time I became involved. Now I have a clearer idea, and recognize that all the chicanery I experienced from the reading of Geer's POOP to the time I left in '87 was an inherent part of Wierwille's co-option of ALL of us from the very beginning.
It was a commonly held belief in the mid 1970's that ordination was reserved for those with gift ministries. Whenever we heard of someone being ordained we would try to guess their gift ministry. I don't know where the idea came from but I suspect it had something to do with the gift ministry teaching in PFAL.
Well, as I haven't read it elsewhere here (perhaps I missed it), it should probably be noted that though it might have started one way (where it was offered to anyone graduating the corps,) ordination relatively soon became something which, if desired, was to be requested. There were exceptions, of course, but that was usually how it began. The request was reviewed, and if approved, apparently the requester was then "invited" to be ordained. Perhaps it was a little less mysterious or glamorous route than some may have imagined.
Well, as I haven't read it elsewhere here (perhaps I missed it), it should probably be noted that though it might have started one way (where it was offered to anyone graduating the corps,) ordination relatively soon became something which, if desired, was to be requested. There were exceptions, of course, but that was usually how it began. The request was reviewed, and if approved, apparently the requester was then "invited" to be ordained. Perhaps it was a little less mysterious or glamorous route than some may have imagined.
What years are you talking about there? I'm pretty sure that's not how it worked in the earlier years. I could be wrong.
"Perhaps it was a little less mysterious or glamorous route than some may have imagined."
For sure. The same could be said for the way W.O.W.'s were assigned to areas. Assignments were based on mundane things like who had a car, not on "revelation".
What years are you talking about there? I'm pretty sure that's not how it worked in the earlier years. I could be wrong.
"Perhaps it was a little less mysterious or glamorous route than some may have imagined."
For sure. The same could be said for the way W.O.W.'s were assigned to areas. Assignments were based on mundane things like who had a car, not on "revelation".
I tend to think you are both right. I remember reading from VPW's letters to the Corps household (late 70's I think) where he basically invited people to request ordination if they felt so inspired. By the time I was in the Corps (mid-90's) it had become much more opaque. You didn't ask to be ordained, it was an invitation you received at the discretion of the Board of Directors. I agree that the ordination was seen as validating or highlighting the gift ministries of a person.
What years are you talking about there? I'm pretty sure that's not how it worked in the earlier years. I could be wrong.
"Perhaps it was a little less mysterious or glamorous route than some may have imagined."
For sure. The same could be said for the way W.O.W.'s were assigned to areas. Assignments were based on mundane things like who had a car, not on "revelation".
It's hard to know when it might have first started (or who first asked), as it may have only come into vogue with VPW's letter (which I seem to recall being prior to the sic corps graduation, but that might be wrong.) All were invited 3rd & earlier. Perhaps DWBH knows what the flavor of the day was with the fourth or fifth.
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DontWorryBeHappy
MRAP: You never cease to amaze me. Sometimes I wonder if you're just playing games around here or if you are really as dense and lost as you present yourself to be. Your recent posts decrying what yo
skyrider
"Ever see a group say an Evangelist's primary function was NOT to "evangelize", but to GET OTHER PEOPLE TO EVANGELIZE? Only vpw was that shameless." Hmmm....let's just try to apply that sequence
Raf
If chockfull and I can get along, then any two Greasespot posters can get along. AmIrite?
skyrider
Two questions, two answers.....
1) No, I do not still consider myself ordained......although, I've got the ordination certificate
from Universal Life Church Monastery to perform the duties of clergy. It's not the thrust
of my total self.
2) What it meant to me back then [and now].....is living and abiding by the truths/precepts
of the epistles to Timothy and Titus
Plenty of truths and principles can be mined from these two epistles.....and even to
offer a small window of this will fall short of what it all encompassed to me. But for
the sake of clarity and brevity....I would cite II Timothy 2:1ff.
1) ....be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus
2) ....commit to faithful men who teach others also
3) ....not entangled with affairs of this life
4) ....strive to uphold true/godly doctrine
5) ....a vessel honored, sanctified and meet for master's use
6) ....follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace with pure heart
7) ....a servant of the Lord, gentle and patient
Obviously, twi was/is MANY things to MANY people.....and the clergy issue
is bantered about as well. Those who took this solemn oath with a pure heart
to serve, guard and protect the "flock of God" at all costs are to be commended.
On two occasions, I stayed up until 3:30am or so helping to the utmost of my ability:
one individual was desperately tormented and wanted to commit suicide and another
was anguished with internal conflict about major marital problems. I stayed with them
to do whatever I believed was necessary to resolve the detrimental issues. Yes, so many
situations of serving and counseling thru the years.....and if need be, I would recommend
profession help if one was warranted.
For those who sought ordination for its title and/or empowerment to lord over others.....
well, you may have gotten temporal "reward" but that's about it. Even those who see it
as a means for weddings, funerals, hospital visits.....to me, it was SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT.
Even my clergy acceptance letter [below] noted the Timothy/Titus standard.
.
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penworks
This topic is one I've thought about often since leaving TWI in 1987, and what I think is not very flattering to VPW or to organized religion.
I was in the second Corps which graduated in 1973, and I married a second Corps man. The 10 second Corps men were ordained in 1974 after one year of experience on the field. Later, when the third Corps (men and some women) were going to be ordained, VPW wrote a letter to the second Corps women, the married and the unmarried, and asked us whether we, too, felt we wanted to accept the ordination status.
Some women did, I did not. I told VPW that my husband's ordination was sufficient...I was his helpmeet. Ah yes, the dutiful wife...
I no longer subscribe to Christianity, so that colors my views considerably, I know. I view the ordination phenomenon from a distance now, so like the outsider that I am, I wonder why the procedure is necessary at all. I think it plays into the hierarchical structure of organized spirituality that lauds one person above another. I believe in equal access. I think everyone is responsible for their own "spiritual" lives, and having ordained ministers around weakens that ability, makes people think they NEED a clergyman to be their spiritual overseer, to be their spiritual leader, to tell them what is right. Really?
As far as I understand ordinations, the Apostle Paul began the tradition, and since I consider him, well, very sincere but a man who formed his own religion believing he was doing it the way his "God" wanted him to, I think ordinations feed into a hierarchical structure and create results that are not useful to people, like the belief that an ordained person is more valuable to "God," or more "spiritual" etc.
Example. Last year I attended a dinner party with about ten other people. The host couple invited their neighbor (and wife), who was also their church minister. We were all sitting around the living room eating appetizers etc. and talking like peers when suddenly, right before we got up to eat, the hostess said the neighbor was going to pray. Suddenly a hierarchical atmosphere appeared out of nowhere like a stray cloud!
What I am NOT saying:
I am not saying that ordained people do not genuinely love others, help them (like sitting up all night with someone suicidal), etc. but un-ordained people do those things, too. And some ordained people should not do them. Many times they should send people to mental health counselors.
I am not saying we should not seek counsel from people wiser than ourselves on a given subject in life. But how do we designate that wisdom?
I am not disrespecting people who were/are ordained in TWI. I know many of them and they are good people. I'm just expressing my opinion -- that the ritual of ordination conducted by VPW in TWI was a show performed to shore-up VPW's ego, and possibly the ego of some of his clergy. I said SOME not ALL.
I think VPW wanted to compete with Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, etc, and denominations in general to make TWI look like a real ministry with real ministers. Since I now view VPW as a fraud, I have difficulty valuing his ordinations. Were they simply trappings to make his cult appear respectable?
Let me repeat, my opinions are not meant to disparage the people who are/were ordained. They each have their own conscience to deal with on this. I just question the value of the whole process, whether it is inside or outside of TWI.
As for what we were told ordination was - it was explained something like: it was making publically known what was already spiritually "operating" in the person, what that person's God-given ministries were, described something like "long-suits" or abilities they had more than other people did. Something like that...
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krys
Penworks did a good job of describing ordination from inside the organization, and, indeed any organization. She aptly described things from inside twi or another “church”.This is an instance of one brush not painting all boards. I think we should look at society's take on it.
Ordination permits individuals to go places where ordinary non-ordained folks cannot go such as certain places in hospitals and even all places at non-visiting hours. Even those who don't subscribe to prayer for healing, would often like their pastor there with them sometimes. Catholic Priests and Jewish Rabbis have such permissions, why not others.Also, anyone who is Ordained in any religion can preside at weddings, funerals, etc. (I know one may obtain a certificate on the web).
I admit I've known some who were ordained in twi who didn't really meet the standards, but, I've also known a few who did! I also know several other ordained individuals who met the standard according to Scripture ….you could see it immediately by their lives and their churches.
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Watered Garden
I was never WC or ordained, and was just a mere humble peon of a believer. However, I was always told that someone who was ordained was ordained because God revealed to the powers that be that the ordainee had a gift ministry.
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Oakspear
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waysider
It was a commonly held belief in the mid 1970's that ordination was reserved for those with gift ministries. Whenever we heard of someone being ordained we would try to guess their gift ministry. I don't know where the idea came from but I suspect it had something to do with the gift ministry teaching in PFAL.
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MRAP
Yes,waysider, that was a commonly played game: Guess the Gift Ministry. Now I see that it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding. There were some obvious winners: teachers and preachers but the prophets, aposteles and espeacially the evangelists never showed. Oh, recall, there were also double gift minestriest awarded (never got the daily double).
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DontWorryBeHappy
So then MRAP, in your current view, do you believe jalvis, gerry
wrenn, walter cummins, chris geer, beence finnegan, michael rood, to name just a scant few are genuinely ordained because they were ordained by vic himself?
Do you believe they have "gift ministries" to the Church? What's your "Guess the Gift Ministry" radar telling you about these guys. How about John Schoenheit?
Mark Graeser? Who ordained all these guys? What legitimately accredited seminaries did they attend? What training in Ministry, Homiletics, Pastoral Counseling, or Divinity have they had outside of the meaningless halls of twit or their own made up ordination rituals, doctrines, and "future leadership"? Which of the people I listed above was or still is "the real deal" in your opinion? How many twit ordinations did you attend in your brief 5 year stint with twit from 72-77? You state you "now see it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding" I was in rez from 73-76, 3 of the 5 years of your involvement, and I never heard of ANYTHING you describe. How so?
You also said you have great interest in the TLTF & STFI ministries because of lynn and schoenheit. Especially you mentioned Schoenheit's REV. What convinces you today that these guys and their "ministries" are worthy of the respect you grant them? Neither has ANY ministerial, academic, scholastic or theological credentials outside of twit, or some other phony self-ordained and self -accredited bible outfit. The core of their "accredited credentials" is only what they bought from twit and the meaningless "sheepskins" they threw around to anybody and everybody who came up with enough "tuition, room, and board" to buy one. Does their twit ordination and "education" still hold for them today in your eyes? Or, looking back now is that all still "a game"?
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waysider
When I said we tried to guess the gift ministry, I didn't mean to imply it was some sort of game. That seems to suggest we had a cavalier attitude about it. We did not. We considered it to be a serious and solemn event. I apologize for not stating it more clearly.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Thanks Waysider, but I did not get the "game" idea from your post. My post was addressed to MRAP. He said that he during the years 72-77 was "encouraged" to play the "Guess the Gift Ministry game", because they were taught that if they guessed correctly they had proven themselves to be somehow better, or more mature, or spiritually understanding believers. I was there before during and after 72-77, even getting ordained myself in 77. Yet, I never heard of any game like this. Hence my pertinent questions to MRAP. Then MRAP lists his version of the ministries as listed in Ephesians, and includes "preachers" among them. I never heard of that one either. Maybe he meant "pastors"? Either way, he said that "teachers and preachers" were the two most common gift ministries in his long and storied twit experience. There's just a bit too much cognitive dissonance in that post which is not at all helped by the spelling and grammatical errors which make deciphering the meaning of the content more difficult.
With all of MRAP's hype on that other thread in the open forum thread regarding the laughable REV produced by Schoenheit and his STFI along with Jalvis and TLTF, demanding that the discussion be moved to the doctrinal threads so that the incredible credibility of Schoenheit's textual research, critical textual translation skills in all dem dere languages can be accurately and thoroughly debated and proven or disproven by everyone except schoenheit himself? Why would any serious student of the Bible and textual criticism ever think to even read that REV?
Who were the translators? What are the translation credentials and in which languages? Who were the editors? Who did the critical peer reviews? Who are Schoenheit's and Lynn's "peers"?
Nobody in the REAL world of biblical textual criticism, translation, and MSS editing, compilation, selection and determination of authenticity ever heard of these twits. How come their work is so outstanding to you? Is it their spelling? Grammar? Scores of years in biblical academia, MS collection, textual research, textual criticism, expertise in Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, Latin?
Those are my questions and reasons for asking them MRAP. I feel a response from you is necessary. TY for your time.
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Twinky
DWBH, the question Oakspear asked was this:
and I'd be interested on your take on what you'd been told it was about. What you expected to be doing (outside of what the reality was). Where and how you expected to minister to Wayfers. Did you think you'd be taken seriously by non-Way ordained ministers? What were your expectations of this role?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Twinky!
I have already posted several times, in detail what twit doctrine and practice regarding Vic's self-manufactured Ordination rituals, both here at Greasespot and at the WC FB Group. I do not have the time right now to either look for them for you nor re-write them. It's always so enlightening and interesting to hear from you from "across the pond". Really love hearing how you Brits view and understand the same circumstances and news events we yanks see here.
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WordWolf
"How did the ordination thing work in twi?
page__p__414860#entry414860
"hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point...........
when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california.
several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970...........
steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.
ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic.
this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet.
the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it!
the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72!
then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god.
this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class".
during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there!
when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago.
this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.
my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA.
the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic.
it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual.
rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................
whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace. "
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DontWorryBeHappy
"Rev" gerry was in da 2nd corpse with Charlene and his first wife, Su3 Wil$on. He runs the single most smarmy, over-schmalzed, wierwille worship offshoot of them all, imo. As a matter of fact, just today, on his FB page, he was trying to pull off a repeat as the mighty east coast USA hurricane stopper by "rebuking" Joaquin from the Carolina and Virginia coasts. When he was the limp coordinator in FL, he claimed to have surrounded the entire state of FL with a "ring of angels" to protect God's people,(and nobody else) from one of those big hurricanes like Andrew or Ivan or some such. Always made me scratch my head in disbelief when jerks like dictor paul and his faithful son, "rev" gerry would "glorify Gawd" with tales of how "every house in the neighborhood was blown or flooded away EXCEPT for where the deluded wayfers lived because of their super-powerful, rightly-divided, christ-in-you, believing prayers. And, then take credit for "how much worse it would have been for all those poor, sub-human natural men and unbelievers had it not been for that ring of angels "rev" gerry commanded into action in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen! See why you should keep sending me your $$?? So, in effect, "rev" gerry et al are teaching the mind numbed ex-wayfers that, the love of God in the renewed in manifestation DOES INDEED rejoice in iniquity!"
Just thought the GSC community might be interested in examining today's latest from "rev" gerry himself. Judge for yourself and tell us all what you think. I am most interested in your thoughts, opinions, and emotions when you read it. TY. Pray for my son please. His fantasy football teams are getting crunched on this longest NFL game day evah!
"Dearly beloved, it is Sunday and we are still here, Joaquin or not. We can still pray for our brethren along the coast and the resulting flooding from the hurricane.
From our exalted position in Christ in the spiritual realm, we can exercise the mighty power entrusted to us for good, for deliverance.
Ephesians 3:20 WT
Now to Him Who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we request or think about, according to the power that works in us,
In Christ, we are complete, filled to the full. We are strengthened with the power of his spirit. It is all in all of us. Because of this, we can be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his exerted ability for us.
Our Father blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm in Christ. We are seated there in Christ, we walk in this realm, and we must stand in this realm as the mighty sons of God we are. The day is swiftly coming that we will stand there when our Lord returns for us.
Our wrestling is in the spiritual realm beloved, against the strategies of the god of this world, the devil, and against the spirits of wickedness in the heavenly realm - not against the senses realm. As we would train if we were in a physical wrestling match, we must train to compete in the wrestling match in the spiritual realm. Ephesians 6:10 and following lays it out for us.
The key to igniting the power of God in us is the renewing of the mind: thinking God’s thoughts so we can prove His will, believing God’s Word concerning who we are in Christ so we are able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the wicked one, standing in the contest in which we wrestle.
Beloved, look at situations from God’s perspective, from His vantage point in the heavenly realm.
We are enabled men and women in Christ. Pray always with every prayer in the spirit and stay on watch with all perseverance concerning them for all saints.
Dear ones, exercise yourself unto godliness: that real, true, vital, spiritual relationship with God in the spiritual realm."
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penworks
Hi, it's Charlene here, just to say that this account nails the phenomenon. Thank you, DWBH. Just one little change.. The Second Corps men were ordained after one year on the field post graduation. So graduation was '73, ordination was '74.
Well, all I can say is: this is a broken record of VPW self-serving rhetoric.
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Rocky
And it is abominably fallacious magical thinking and complete bulls*it.
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Steve Lortz
Thanks, WordWolf, for posting the link to the "How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?" thread! When I started reading it, I thought "How did I miss all this?" and then I looked at the dates. During that time I was recovering at home from a massive hernia repair surgery, and I didn't have a computer at home yet.
What an eye-opener in oh so many ways!
Thanks DontWorryBeHappy for all the history you've filled us in on. I didn't get involved with TWI until 1980, and I often wondered what it must have been like in the days TWI was growing into what it had become by the time I became involved. Now I have a clearer idea, and recognize that all the chicanery I experienced from the reading of Geer's POOP to the time I left in '87 was an inherent part of Wierwille's co-option of ALL of us from the very beginning.
Thanks, everyone!
Love,
Steve
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DontWorryBeHappy
That has always been the heart and guts of this site Steve!
And......thanks much Charlene for accurizing the dates.
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Twinky
Thanks, WW, for re-posting that record.
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Oakspear
Thanks DWBH for the background and to WordWolf for providing the links
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TLC
Well, as I haven't read it elsewhere here (perhaps I missed it), it should probably be noted that though it might have started one way (where it was offered to anyone graduating the corps,) ordination relatively soon became something which, if desired, was to be requested. There were exceptions, of course, but that was usually how it began. The request was reviewed, and if approved, apparently the requester was then "invited" to be ordained. Perhaps it was a little less mysterious or glamorous route than some may have imagined.
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waysider
What years are you talking about there? I'm pretty sure that's not how it worked in the earlier years. I could be wrong.
"Perhaps it was a little less mysterious or glamorous route than some may have imagined."
For sure. The same could be said for the way W.O.W.'s were assigned to areas. Assignments were based on mundane things like who had a car, not on "revelation".
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shortfuse
I tend to think you are both right. I remember reading from VPW's letters to the Corps household (late 70's I think) where he basically invited people to request ordination if they felt so inspired. By the time I was in the Corps (mid-90's) it had become much more opaque. You didn't ask to be ordained, it was an invitation you received at the discretion of the Board of Directors. I agree that the ordination was seen as validating or highlighting the gift ministries of a person.
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TLC
It's hard to know when it might have first started (or who first asked), as it may have only come into vogue with VPW's letter (which I seem to recall being prior to the sic corps graduation, but that might be wrong.) All were invited 3rd & earlier. Perhaps DWBH knows what the flavor of the day was with the fourth or fifth.
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