I can see that religion might have to handle criticism differently than mainstream culture. Religion has to juggle their God, who is holy and perfect and cannot be disrespected,with their people who are imperfect and capable of doing any unspeakable thing anyone else could possibly do. I can't picture the catholic church or any other religion allowing anybody to promote music or literature displaying their "bloopers".
But criticism is healthy. Even in scripture we're supposed to check and balance ourselves (Gal. 6:1, Rom. 12:2, etc.). Countries and religions which are extreme in suppressing criticism tend to stick out like the sore thumb that they are. IMO what has happened to twi wouldn't have if certain things had been addressed freely. But they couldn't because...wasn't John Schoenheit's life threatened if he told anyone what he knew about certain things? Sounds like suppression to me. I guess the only true 'rock stars' of twi culture are here.
Criticism can be healthy... if the foundation of that which one criticizes is legitimate to begin with.
Regarding cults, the concept of criticism is anathema because exclusion of critical thinking is a critical success factor for cults from the start.
If wierwille had not suppressed criticism, he wouldn't have been able to build the abusive subculture that was and is The Way International.
Criticism can be healthy... if the foundation of that which one criticizes is legitimate to begin with.
Regarding cults, the concept of criticism is anathema because exclusion of critical thinking is a critical success factor for cults from the start.
If wierwille had not suppressed criticism, he wouldn't have been able to build the abusive subculture that was and is The Way International.
If VPW had been open to healthy criticism there would not have been a TWI.
Remember, he began TWI because, as I understand it, he could not get along well with others (understatement) in his denomination. I think that's because he was what sociologists call a charismatic authoritarian. They aren't usually open to much discussion. :-)
We're not rock stars, John, or any other kind of stars, for that matter. We're just ordinary people, exposing the dark side of The Way.
OK, so you don't relate to rock stars. Today I thought of an example of what I said. In 1988 I lived in MI. The area coordinator was a 9th corps grad twi reverend. He once shared during a twig fellowship that he disagreed with LCM about something. He thought God would bless someone who ABS'd 2% of their income if that's what they were comfortable with. I don't have a problem with that. LCM was always saying stuff like...."God called it robbery if people didn't tithe in the OT. It must be GRAND LARCENY today under grace!!!!! God won't spit in your direction." I never heard whatever LCM said during the late 90s but I know he wanted 15%, not just the tithe.
But this guy couldn't have ever admitted to LCM that he disagreed about that or ANYTHING. Ralph D. said there was nobody who could tell the president of twi that he/she was wrong. Oh, yeah, we're just supposed to trust that LCM was always on fire for God. Even VP did not come across like that. There were just as many dissenters under VP as LCM, but it was under LCMs watch that the wheels came off.
"Dark side of TWI????? Show me something that doesn't have a dark side.
quote: Remember when you were a kid and your mother would say, "If everyone jumped off the bridge, would that make it okay for you to jump, too?"
:biglaugh:/>
YES! My mom did say that to me at least once. Jumping off a bridge is extreme, but when I was in 10th grade on an unseasonably warm day in late winter, most classrooms had those old heaters that came on automatically, so that day most classrooms had their windows open, and for no apparent reason, probably 2 dozen of us took off one shoe and threw it out of a 3rd floor window (choir class). If everybody threw a shoe out the window would that make it OK for you to do it, too? YES! This happened on a Thursday and we got our shoes back the following Monday with a lecture.
quote: 2) Are you suggesting that we should excuse twi's dark side because "everybody has one?"
No.
quote:
If VPW had been open to healthy criticism there would not have been a TWI.
Remember, he began TWI because, as I understand it, he could not get along well with others (understatement) in his denomination. I think that's because he was what sociologists call a charismatic authoritarian. They aren't usually open to much discussion. :-)
Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages. TWI's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. Even the catholic church does much good. They have a dark side. To the present day. TWIs dark side didn't stop the devil from hurting people in it. I don't think of myself as one of the "lucky ones". I got to know God in twi. He's still there. Still answers prayer. Still heals. Putting twi in the box called 'cult' is no different than putting them in the box called 'God's ministry'. IMO
I don't think of myself as one of the "lucky ones". I got to know God in twi. He's still there. Still answers prayer. Still heals. Putting twi in the box called 'cult' is no different than putting them in the box called 'God's ministry'. IMO
Rather than stating, "He's still there"......I see it differently.
"Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages."
They're not opposite messages, they're different messages.
VPW and The Way were insignificant and had no discernible impact on the greater scope of Christianity. The Way was and still is a dangerous cult that ruined lives.
There is no conflict between those two statements.
"Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages."
They're not opposite messages, they're different messages.
VPW and The Way were insignificant and had no discernible impact on the greater scope of Christianity. The Way was and still is a dangerous cult that ruined lives.
There is no conflict between those two statements.
Jesus said what you've done to the least one of these, my siblings, you've done to me...
Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages.
Charles Manson's group had a handful of members. In the scale of humanity,
both the numbers of members and their murder victims are "insignificant"
(STATISTICALLY, considering that there's over 200 million people living in the
US this instant.)
That same group was a cult, dangerous, and it DID ruin lives.
If you had a family member who was in it, or who was murdered by them,
you would consider them a big deal and worth discussing.
======================
Every SINGLE bullet shot in a war is "insignificant" (statistically.)
We don't discuss the story, say, of every bullet fired by or at a US soldier
in "Operation Enduring Freedom", not even just the ones fired in Afghanistan.
Statistically, each one is "insignificant." However, for the family and friends
of a soldier whose life was cut short by a bullet would testify it was indeed
a dangerous bullet. It might even have been said to ruin their lives.
TWI's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. Even the catholic church does much good. They have a dark side. To the present day. TWIs dark side didn't stop the devil from hurting people in it. I don't think of myself as one of the "lucky ones". I got to know God in twi. He's still there. Still answers prayer. Still heals.
The men and women of God in twi were like the politicians. They spoke to us publicly; they were the face of the organization. Were there writers? Sure, but something was missing. By writers, I mean not just Elena Whiteside or Dennis McGee. We had musicians, comedians, painters, etc. But none of those were allowed even a hint of criticism. DID we criticize? Sure, but it had to be in secret. One of the last ROAs I attended I remember LCM talking about someone there who had "spoken against VP and against LCM and against twi". LCM called this person a dog who had to be muzzled.
this type of speech really hasn't varied since whatever pope it was threatened martin luther. and in twi all of them were and are like this at the top vpw lcm rfr. the longer the leader is there, they garner more power, become paranoid, and start reassigning assistants to siberia. the remaining asistants are under a regime like the communist rule.
But criticism is healthy. Even in scripture we're supposed to check and balance ourselves (Gal. 6:1, Rom. 12:2, etc.). Countries and religions which are extreme in suppressing criticism tend to stick out like the sore thumb that they are. IMO what has happened to twi wouldn't have if certain things had been addressed freely. But they couldn't because...wasn't John Schoenheit's life threatened if he told anyone what he knew about certain things? Sounds like suppression to me. I guess the only true 'rock stars' of twi culture are here.
yes this highlights a great point about how to pinpoint and avoid spiritual abuse. Places that don't allow free conversation and criticism - that indicates a red flag to avoid.
sorry can't relate to the rock star analogy - all that does is put that dumb song in my head by that dumb band that i don't like.
"Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages."
They're not opposite messages, they're different messages.
VPW and The Way were insignificant and had no discernible impact on the greater scope of Christianity. The Way was and still is a dangerous cult that ruined lives.
There is no conflict between those two statements.
"Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages."
They're not opposite messages, they're different messages.
VPW and The Way were insignificant and had no discernible impact on the greater scope of Christianity. The Way was and still is a dangerous cult that ruined lives.
There is no conflict between those two statements.
So then Christianity is irrelevant????
That's nothing at all like he said.
Read it again, slower.
If you still miss it somehow, I explained it further in post 15 of this thread.
Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages. TWI's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. Even the catholic church does much good. They have a dark side. To the present day. TWIs dark side didn't stop the devil from hurting people in it. I don't think of myself as one of the "lucky ones". I got to know God in twi. He's still there. Still answers prayer. Still heals. Putting twi in the box called 'cult' is no different than putting them in the box called 'God's ministry'. IMO
yes i agree that twi's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. i have a wife and family from my time in twi - we never would have met otherwise. johniam this is actually one of the toughest things to come to grips with.
its like job: from victim to victor part 4. the goodness of God, the badness of the devil, and the corruption of a megalomaniac (or 3).
the way i look at it now God led me in, then led me out. to me that's a healthier viewpoint than i screwed up my youth, missed all the signs, and now i'm all alone on a dung heap. although i'm sure that's how twi would want me to feel. but that's what makes them like westboro baptist.
God can help anyone anywhere, innies, outies, people going to home fellowships splintered off from the splinter of a splinter of a megalomaniac. actually that's part of the twi mentality trap. that you have to be in a certain place or following the orders of a certain person for God to bless you or even listen to your prayers.
People are often blessed in the most miserable, seemingly-hopeless circumstances,
during horrible events. Doesn't mean the hurricane was of God, doesn't mean the
maniac shooter was an instrument of His Divine Will.
God still answers prayer during genocides. Doesn't mean to thank God for the
genocide, nor to claim it wasn't a big deal.
yep yep. what up WordWolf? God allows us to be tempted and tested. this proves our character to ourselves and God.
Ah, the label matters because twi fulfills the requirements of the definition "cult."
If someone claimed that it would be no different to
"put you in the box marked 'male'" than to
"put you in the box marked 'serial killer'",
you would object.
unfortunately the label didn't matter to me. i read it and took the class anyway.
twi has been demonstrated- beyond any REASONABLE doubt- NOT to be nor to
have been "God's Ministry."
twi has been demonstrated- beyond any REASONABLE doubt- to have been a cult.
both true but i don't think there is one church that represents "God's ministry". I think that premise is faulty.
I know that ignorant fools slapped that label on twi for casual and stupid
reasons in the past. However, unbeknownst to them, the label actually DID
apply-for far better reasons than they imagined. Their stupidity didn't
actually invalidate the label when the REAL evidence was uncovered.[/b]
i think that there were some out to make a buck off that like ted patrick. but most who use the cult label with twi i've found to either have had personal negative experience or someone close to them had negative experience.
i think twi earns every bit of their cult label by their behavior.
sheesh look at what they've done to their own way corps. put all these people through FlimFlamU graduate them, then drop them. jesus taught he that troubles his own house shall inherit the wind. i guess that was prophetic, no?
"but twi has changed it's better now". yeah i can see how they have reformed by how chandl*r gr*ene has a pharmacy degree that he's not using that he couldn't go in debt to get but now he's the way corps director. same story different generation. and they have 2 people left.
"but twi has changed it's better now". yeah i can see how they have reformed by how chandl*r gr*ene has a pharmacy degree that he's not using that he couldn't go in debt to get but now he's the way corps director. same story different generation. and they have 2 people left.
At one time, with FIVE CAMPUSES.....twi needed a corps director.
The corps director set the agenda/pace for all corps coordinators.
Now....all the inrez corps could meet in a small kitchen.
And.....how many of those corps coordinators have abandoned twi?
1) Craig Martindale (ousted)
2) Ger@ald Wrenn
3) W@yne Cl@pp
4) R@lph D.
5) John Ly-nn
6) Rich@rd Th0mas
7) Lind@ McD
8) D@ve Bed@rd (asst)
9) P@ul Mosqued@
10) Fr@nklin Sm!th (?)
11) D@ve St@ndage
12) St#ve Str#zpek
13) George Hen-ley
14) Tom Jenk!nson
15) ....and others
Many other assistant corps coordinator have abandoned ship, as well.
Not sure about the H0rneys.....but the only ones who seem to cling on
are the Moneyhands and F0rts [who wanted secular careers].
So, give Ch@ndler G. another 12 years and see what develops......the title
of "a big fish in a small pond" has a short tenure of opportunity.
So, give Ch@ndler G. another 12 years and see what develops......the title
of "a big fish in a small pond" has a short tenure of opportunity.
my thoughts were more along the lines of the evil leech-like qualities of twi have not changed since the last generation. meaning it's sin to take out student loans to have a secular career. then once a person navigates that, starts to get in a place where they can work and prosper, they leech on to that. bring them in to live in a trailer or a dorm and be under direct servitude of her holiness. for what purpose was the degree and the approx $75k that represents? plus the pharm school at about that as well. $150k of schooling all for what? a more honest approach would be for the ministry to send kids to actually get trained in places where degrees are accredited, sponsor some careers as ministers. if that's what they want to do. but oh no. "the world" has nothing to teach these idiots. plus probably a year at a divinity school would smarten the kids up where they would never return. i heard someone mention once a direct quote from the BODummies about the over 100 years of combined spiritual wisdom that brain trust had. there is probably an OT mule with their name on it. -RNR- would be the brand.
but yes, another 12 years and the resume faces some serious opportunities. grandiose titles at twi have translated to jobs delivering packages and in collections when the rubber meets the paycheck.
H0rneys last i heard were in nevada and in twi but who knows. he always was pursuing mountains - he's a physical therapist, and she was writing novels under a pseudonym. was their kid a marine? they are in a weird catch 22 where they have enough blackmail info to get mostly what they want but will never be in power.
F0rt - last i heard he was working for some believer dude's company in indiana and they were in. i actually think that one is more of a familial clinging with them hanging in there - cindy being howards daughter.
of your other listed people i think i knew 6 but not sure of all their details.
my thoughts were more along the lines of the evil leech-like qualities of twi have not changed since the last generation. meaning it's sin to take out student loans to have a secular career. then once a person navigates that, starts to get in a place where they can work and prosper, they leech on to that. bring them in to live in a trailer or a dorm and be under direct servitude of her holiness. for what purpose was the degree and the approx $75k that represents? plus the pharm school at about that as well. $150k of schooling all for what?
Yeah, chockfull......totally.
How old is Ch@ndler now? 29? 30?
And, if he's got student loans with that pharm degree....he should be making decent money
to pay down that loan and stay on that career path. This window of opportunity is GOING TO PASS
HIM BY.....and his resume will suck in about 15 years.
So, at age 45....he might find himself being passed over because employers will look at his resume
and be dumb-struck by his side-ways religious leanings. Not smart. Not faithful. Not professional.
And, the younger, energetic 26-year olds will look much more advantageous for employment.
Oh well....maybe, it's a "parent-thing?" Bill and Marcia must be SO proud. :biglaugh:
Charles Manson's group had a handful of members. In the scale of humanity,
both the numbers of members and their murder victims are "insignificant"
(STATISTICALLY, considering that there's over 200 million people living in the
US this instant.)
That same group was a cult, dangerous, and it DID ruin lives.
If you had a family member who was in it, or who was murdered by them,
you would consider them a big deal and worth discussing.
Yeah, but Charles Manson's group is irrelevant because God had nothing to do with it. God had everything to do with twi even getting as famous as they did. When twi stayed the course, God opened big doors for them. Numbers are incidental when God is involved.
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WordWolf
Cool but completely fictional. he never auditioned for the Monkees. http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/monkees.asp Please consider fact-checking at least SOME of your statements before hitting "ad
waysider
I think he was responding to the post that asked (in jest) whether he was a poser or a loon.
waysider
We're not rock stars, John, or any other kind of stars, for that matter. We're just ordinary people, exposing the dark side of The Way.
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Rocky
Criticism can be healthy... if the foundation of that which one criticizes is legitimate to begin with.
Regarding cults, the concept of criticism is anathema because exclusion of critical thinking is a critical success factor for cults from the start.
If wierwille had not suppressed criticism, he wouldn't have been able to build the abusive subculture that was and is The Way International.
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penworks
If VPW had been open to healthy criticism there would not have been a TWI.
Remember, he began TWI because, as I understand it, he could not get along well with others (understatement) in his denomination. I think that's because he was what sociologists call a charismatic authoritarian. They aren't usually open to much discussion. :-)
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penworks
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johniam
OK, so you don't relate to rock stars. Today I thought of an example of what I said. In 1988 I lived in MI. The area coordinator was a 9th corps grad twi reverend. He once shared during a twig fellowship that he disagreed with LCM about something. He thought God would bless someone who ABS'd 2% of their income if that's what they were comfortable with. I don't have a problem with that. LCM was always saying stuff like...."God called it robbery if people didn't tithe in the OT. It must be GRAND LARCENY today under grace!!!!! God won't spit in your direction." I never heard whatever LCM said during the late 90s but I know he wanted 15%, not just the tithe.
But this guy couldn't have ever admitted to LCM that he disagreed about that or ANYTHING. Ralph D. said there was nobody who could tell the president of twi that he/she was wrong. Oh, yeah, we're just supposed to trust that LCM was always on fire for God. Even VP did not come across like that. There were just as many dissenters under VP as LCM, but it was under LCMs watch that the wheels came off.
"Dark side of TWI????? Show me something that doesn't have a dark side.
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Rocky
1) Wierwille disposed of dissenters just as quickly and vehemently as Loy did. Loy, however, was more bombastic about it.
2) Are you suggesting that we should excuse twi's dark side because "everybody has one?"
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Bolshevik
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waysider
Remember when you were a kid and your mother would say, "If everyone jumped off the bridge, would that make it okay for you to jump, too?"
:biglaugh:/>
Sure, lots of groups have a dark side. Then again, we're not really talking about lots of groups, we're talking about one in particular, The Way.
edit: spelling
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johniam
quote: Remember when you were a kid and your mother would say, "If everyone jumped off the bridge, would that make it okay for you to jump, too?"
:biglaugh:/>
YES! My mom did say that to me at least once. Jumping off a bridge is extreme, but when I was in 10th grade on an unseasonably warm day in late winter, most classrooms had those old heaters that came on automatically, so that day most classrooms had their windows open, and for no apparent reason, probably 2 dozen of us took off one shoe and threw it out of a 3rd floor window (choir class). If everybody threw a shoe out the window would that make it OK for you to do it, too? YES! This happened on a Thursday and we got our shoes back the following Monday with a lecture.
They say that there's a perfect chord
That David played and it pleased The Lord.
But, you don't really care for music,
Do you?
Yes, I do. You have no idea.
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johniam
quote: 2) Are you suggesting that we should excuse twi's dark side because "everybody has one?"
No.
quote:
If VPW had been open to healthy criticism there would not have been a TWI.
Remember, he began TWI because, as I understand it, he could not get along well with others (understatement) in his denomination. I think that's because he was what sociologists call a charismatic authoritarian. They aren't usually open to much discussion. :-)
Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages. TWI's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. Even the catholic church does much good. They have a dark side. To the present day. TWIs dark side didn't stop the devil from hurting people in it. I don't think of myself as one of the "lucky ones". I got to know God in twi. He's still there. Still answers prayer. Still heals. Putting twi in the box called 'cult' is no different than putting them in the box called 'God's ministry'. IMO
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skyrider
Rather than stating, "He's still there"......I see it differently.
The Lord God is still here and always has been.
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waysider
"Some people here say that VP/twi was insignificant, Not enough numbers to have discernible impact. Others say it was a cult. Dangerous. Ruined lives. Those are opposite messages."
They're not opposite messages, they're different messages.
VPW and The Way were insignificant and had no discernible impact on the greater scope of Christianity. The Way was and still is a dangerous cult that ruined lives.
There is no conflict between those two statements.
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Steve Lortz
Jesus said what you've done to the least one of these, my siblings, you've done to me...
Too true, waysider... too true...
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
Charles Manson's group had a handful of members. In the scale of humanity,
both the numbers of members and their murder victims are "insignificant"
(STATISTICALLY, considering that there's over 200 million people living in the
US this instant.)
That same group was a cult, dangerous, and it DID ruin lives.
If you had a family member who was in it, or who was murdered by them,
you would consider them a big deal and worth discussing.
======================
Every SINGLE bullet shot in a war is "insignificant" (statistically.)
We don't discuss the story, say, of every bullet fired by or at a US soldier
in "Operation Enduring Freedom", not even just the ones fired in Afghanistan.
Statistically, each one is "insignificant." However, for the family and friends
of a soldier whose life was cut short by a bullet would testify it was indeed
a dangerous bullet. It might even have been said to ruin their lives.
"Where is God?
God is everywhere.
Why?
Because He likes you."
(Father Guido Sarducci's Religion class, 5-Minute University.)
People are often blessed in the most miserable, seemingly-hopeless circumstances,
during horrible events. Doesn't mean the hurricane was of God, doesn't mean the
maniac shooter was an instrument of His Divine Will.
God still answers prayer during genocides. Doesn't mean to thank God for the
genocide, nor to claim it wasn't a big deal.
Oh, and I don't think there's a single poster here who doesn't think the
Catholic Church's dark side doesn't need excising, either.
(Personally, I'm "old school" and would sanction stoning for a few of
the perpetrators.)
Ah, the label matters because twi fulfills the requirements of the definition "cult."
If someone claimed that it would be no different to
"put you in the box marked 'male'" than to
"put you in the box marked 'serial killer'",
you would object.
You are unarguably a male-the definition applies to you, and using that word as a
descriptive tells something ACCURATE about you.
You are unarguable NOT a serial killer- the definition does not apply to you,
and using that word as a descriptive tells nothing ACCURATE about you.
(Although it would say something about the person who claimed you were one.)
twi has been demonstrated- beyond any REASONABLE doubt- NOT to be nor to
have been "God's Ministry."
twi has been demonstrated- beyond any REASONABLE doubt- to have been a cult.
I know that ignorant fools slapped that label on twi for casual and stupid
reasons in the past. However, unbeknownst to them, the label actually DID
apply-for far better reasons than they imagined. Their stupidity didn't
actually invalidate the label when the REAL evidence was uncovered.
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chockfull
this type of speech really hasn't varied since whatever pope it was threatened martin luther. and in twi all of them were and are like this at the top vpw lcm rfr. the longer the leader is there, they garner more power, become paranoid, and start reassigning assistants to siberia. the remaining asistants are under a regime like the communist rule.
yes this highlights a great point about how to pinpoint and avoid spiritual abuse. Places that don't allow free conversation and criticism - that indicates a red flag to avoid.
sorry can't relate to the rock star analogy - all that does is put that dumb song in my head by that dumb band that i don't like.
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johniam
So then Christianity is irrelevant????
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WordWolf
That's nothing at all like he said.
Read it again, slower.
If you still miss it somehow, I explained it further in post 15 of this thread.
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chockfull
yes i agree that twi's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. i have a wife and family from my time in twi - we never would have met otherwise. johniam this is actually one of the toughest things to come to grips with.
its like job: from victim to victor part 4. the goodness of God, the badness of the devil, and the corruption of a megalomaniac (or 3).
the way i look at it now God led me in, then led me out. to me that's a healthier viewpoint than i screwed up my youth, missed all the signs, and now i'm all alone on a dung heap. although i'm sure that's how twi would want me to feel. but that's what makes them like westboro baptist.
God can help anyone anywhere, innies, outies, people going to home fellowships splintered off from the splinter of a splinter of a megalomaniac. actually that's part of the twi mentality trap. that you have to be in a certain place or following the orders of a certain person for God to bless you or even listen to your prayers.
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chockfull
yep yep. what up WordWolf? God allows us to be tempted and tested. this proves our character to ourselves and God.
unfortunately the label didn't matter to me. i read it and took the class anyway.
both true but i don't think there is one church that represents "God's ministry". I think that premise is faulty.
i think that there were some out to make a buck off that like ted patrick. but most who use the cult label with twi i've found to either have had personal negative experience or someone close to them had negative experience.
i think twi earns every bit of their cult label by their behavior.
sheesh look at what they've done to their own way corps. put all these people through FlimFlamU graduate them, then drop them. jesus taught he that troubles his own house shall inherit the wind. i guess that was prophetic, no?
"but twi has changed it's better now". yeah i can see how they have reformed by how chandl*r gr*ene has a pharmacy degree that he's not using that he couldn't go in debt to get but now he's the way corps director. same story different generation. and they have 2 people left.
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skyrider
At one time, with FIVE CAMPUSES.....twi needed a corps director.
The corps director set the agenda/pace for all corps coordinators.
Now....all the inrez corps could meet in a small kitchen.
And.....how many of those corps coordinators have abandoned twi?
1) Craig Martindale (ousted)
2) Ger@ald Wrenn
3) W@yne Cl@pp
4) R@lph D.
5) John Ly-nn
6) Rich@rd Th0mas
7) Lind@ McD
8) D@ve Bed@rd (asst)
9) P@ul Mosqued@
10) Fr@nklin Sm!th (?)
11) D@ve St@ndage
12) St#ve Str#zpek
13) George Hen-ley
14) Tom Jenk!nson
15) ....and others
Many other assistant corps coordinator have abandoned ship, as well.
Not sure about the H0rneys.....but the only ones who seem to cling on
are the Moneyhands and F0rts [who wanted secular careers].
So, give Ch@ndler G. another 12 years and see what develops......the title
of "a big fish in a small pond" has a short tenure of opportunity.
.
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chockfull
my thoughts were more along the lines of the evil leech-like qualities of twi have not changed since the last generation. meaning it's sin to take out student loans to have a secular career. then once a person navigates that, starts to get in a place where they can work and prosper, they leech on to that. bring them in to live in a trailer or a dorm and be under direct servitude of her holiness. for what purpose was the degree and the approx $75k that represents? plus the pharm school at about that as well. $150k of schooling all for what? a more honest approach would be for the ministry to send kids to actually get trained in places where degrees are accredited, sponsor some careers as ministers. if that's what they want to do. but oh no. "the world" has nothing to teach these idiots. plus probably a year at a divinity school would smarten the kids up where they would never return. i heard someone mention once a direct quote from the BODummies about the over 100 years of combined spiritual wisdom that brain trust had. there is probably an OT mule with their name on it. -RNR- would be the brand.
but yes, another 12 years and the resume faces some serious opportunities. grandiose titles at twi have translated to jobs delivering packages and in collections when the rubber meets the paycheck.
H0rneys last i heard were in nevada and in twi but who knows. he always was pursuing mountains - he's a physical therapist, and she was writing novels under a pseudonym. was their kid a marine? they are in a weird catch 22 where they have enough blackmail info to get mostly what they want but will never be in power.
F0rt - last i heard he was working for some believer dude's company in indiana and they were in. i actually think that one is more of a familial clinging with them hanging in there - cindy being howards daughter.
of your other listed people i think i knew 6 but not sure of all their details.
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skyrider
Yeah, chockfull......totally.
How old is Ch@ndler now? 29? 30?
And, if he's got student loans with that pharm degree....he should be making decent money
to pay down that loan and stay on that career path. This window of opportunity is GOING TO PASS
HIM BY.....and his resume will suck in about 15 years.
So, at age 45....he might find himself being passed over because employers will look at his resume
and be dumb-struck by his side-ways religious leanings. Not smart. Not faithful. Not professional.
And, the younger, energetic 26-year olds will look much more advantageous for employment.
Oh well....maybe, it's a "parent-thing?" Bill and Marcia must be SO proud.
:biglaugh:
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Rocky
As far as I know, the only one in that list who has REALLY and truly abandoned the twi mindset is Ralph D.
Several others who are on facebook still try to make a living by doing their own (offshoot) ministry thang or some variation on that theme.
In fact, I saw very recently that Wrenn was recruiting for some bible class he wanted to start teaching.
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johniam
quote:
Charles Manson's group had a handful of members. In the scale of humanity,
both the numbers of members and their murder victims are "insignificant"
(STATISTICALLY, considering that there's over 200 million people living in the
US this instant.)
That same group was a cult, dangerous, and it DID ruin lives.
If you had a family member who was in it, or who was murdered by them,
you would consider them a big deal and worth discussing.
Yeah, but Charles Manson's group is irrelevant because God had nothing to do with it. God had everything to do with twi even getting as famous as they did. When twi stayed the course, God opened big doors for them. Numbers are incidental when God is involved.
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