Ever been to an Amway meeting? You get me to join. I get someone else to join. They get yet another person to join. We're all selling memberships. Meanwhile, who's selling the soap?
That's The Way in a nutshell. You get me to take the class. I get someone else to take the class. They get yet another person to take the class. We're all selling memberships. Meanwhile, who's actually living "the abundant life"?
It was an MLM at its very core. The only thing to feel guilty about (at the time) was not recruiting enough new members.
However, from here, it's obvious he was trying to make an organization
of youngsters who were fine with casual sex.
When he heard about Christian hippies, he went right over.
(Media depictions often made them seem like you could find
hippie chicks into casual sex easily if you could find hippie chicks.)
In TW:LiL he even telegraphed that.
pg-232.
"And I liked especially the tenderness among them. You see,
they themselves had previously been on sex and dope, so they didn't
find fault with everything all the time. They'd hug and kiss each
other and that I liked. They were always affectionate. I saw a lot
that I liked there."
He also asked Jim D00P for details about orgies.
Jim was happy that his limited involvement in those things was past
and that he was delivered from them. vpw tried to tell him that he
was mistaken-that God Almighty was ok with ORGIES.
According to Jim's account,
"You know that's all available," V.P. said. "God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'"
I could not believe what I was hearing. I responded with, "I just thank God that He pulled our soul out of that pit of debauchery." When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her, "I don't believe what he said tonight, and I'm going to forget it. I must have misunderstood him."
==================================
I wrote this once before:
"I thought I saw someone comment about orgies in twi. As far as I know, there were no actual orgies
in twi. (At least, I've never heard of any, and I wasn't invited if there were any.)
However, now that I give the matter a little thought, it's obvious this was something vpw WANTED but
couldn't HAVE. Look back at when he hijacked the hippies. He read about Christians in the Haight-Ashbury
area omong the hippies. He'd heard that there was a lot of "free love" among hippies, including orgies.
vpw headed out specifically to THOSE Christians. (Not any more local to him, even though it would have been
easier to stay in contact with some, say, within a state or so at some college.) He approached them,
and noted (even in the sanitized version) how comfortable they were with each other's bodies. He
EXPECTED to find hippie Christians who were comfortable with orgies, and that seemed to support his
expectation. When alone and drinking with J1m D00p, vpw asked him-repeatedly- about attendance at
an orgy, and pressed for SPECIFICS. At that moment, vpw VOLUNTEERED his own invention- a twisting of
a verse to claim God was ok with orgies. When D00p resisted the idea, vpw dropped the subject.
Time for Plan B- sex with individual hippychicks without orgies. When pliant hippychicks failed to
drop out of the sky (boy, what a waste of time to have gone to Haight-Ashbury, he hasn't been able
to score any boom-boom from the trip, even after!) he goes to Plan C- using the recruited hippies to
recruit youngsters (which he was already doing), and recruit from among THOSE youngsters to bring
some on campus, where he could try to cheat on his wife and see how many were willing to have
sex with him. That led to Plan D- tricking women into having sex with him from among those on campus.
If you look at this from a perspective of "was vpw looking to score sex partners?" then the entire
history of twi becomes frighteningly CONSISTENT and makes a lot of sense. Granted, I think he also
wanted money, a comfortable living, and much bestowed respect, but the path he selected seems to have
been steered straight for "youngsters who might be ok with casual sex with an old married guy."
"As we relaxed and had a second drink, he asked Judy and me to describe what is was like to attend an orgy. We were taken back by the question and embarrassed by it, because even though it was part of our testimony in our deliverance from sin to God's righteousness, no one had ever asked us to describe what it was like to go to an orgy. We found his curiosity shocking. But we gave him a brief description which is really all we could give him since our encounter with an orgy had been so brief. We had attended one orgy sponsored by the San Francisco Sexual Freedom League, but we were so overwhelmed by the spectacle that we had left after twenty minutes.
"You know that's all available," V.P. said. "God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'"
I could not believe what I was hearing. I responded with, "I just thank God that He pulled our soul out of that pit of debauchery." When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her, "I don't believe what he said tonight, and I'm going to forget it. I must have misunderstood him."
=========================
A different poster (Sunesis) spoke directly with Jim, and he said the same thing to her.
========================
'Anyway, Jim told me he had gone to one orgy, and he and his wife didn't like it and did not continue with them. But VP, when he visited SF and the Haight, kept pestering Jim for details. Jim also said, on their down time, he'd go with VP to the porno theatres. Jim said VP treated him like a son, it was the height of the hippie, free love thing, so at that time, even though he thought it a bit weird, he didn't think it was a big deal.
He was also terribly hurt, "betrayed" was the word he used, when VP had the infamous meeting and wrenched control of the Way West from California and all the money now had to go to HQ because VP had promised he would never do that, it was all about the Word. "
Both of those accounts matched Dot Matrix' discussions with Jim.
"Weirwille sought things to validate his position. He did NOT research the word and change his opinion to IT. I became pretty good friends with Jim D**p. He told me that he, Jim, had a ministry where they were sexually loose and an anything goes kinda group out in California. Weirwille flew out there, telling folks it was to talk with Jim about the Bible and witness or something to him. Jim told me Weirwille flew out there to LEARN from Jimmy about the free sex thinking. Weirwille said he always believed sex should be free and allowed with as many as you feel you want to be with -- but could NEVER prove it from the Bible. He was there to see if Jimmy could prove it was okay via scripture.
Dopp never really could and was more of a hippie minister than a sexual pervert looking for Biblical validation.
Weirwille had these concepts, notions, urges, illnesses and tried to find a way to SELL them to us. He was not about to CHANGE his thinking according to scripture. He was not a researcher. He was similar to a lot of cult leaders. He had an idea and looked for people who would buy into it. Like Charlie Manson."
The whole line about "if God wasn't okay with sex outside of marriage, he'd have said 'best' instead of 'good'" is a perfect example of how Wierwille pulled biblical interpretation out of his rear end. Who says God "would have" said best instead of good? He did this kind of stuff all the time - it God had meant xyz he would have used this Greek word instead of that Greek word - from a guy who didn't really understand English grammar let alone Greek or Hebrew
The whole line about "if God wasn't okay with sex outside of marriage, he'd have said 'best' instead of 'good'" is a perfect example of how Wierwille pulled biblical interpretation out of his rear end. Who says God "would have" said best instead of good? He did this kind of stuff all the time - it God had meant xyz he would have used this Greek word instead of that Greek word - from a guy who didn't really understand English grammar let alone Greek or Hebrew
"Weirwille sought things to validate his position. He did NOT research the word and change his opinion to IT. I became pretty good friends with Jim D**p. He told me that he, Jim, had a ministry where they were sexually loose and an anything goes kinda group out in California. Weirwille flew out there, telling folks it was to talk with Jim about the Bible and witness or something to him. Jim told me Weirwille flew out there to LEARN from Jimmy about the free sex thinking. Weirwille said he always believed sex should be free and allowed with as many as you feel you want to be with -- but could NEVER prove it from the Bible. He was there to see if Jimmy could prove it was okay via scripture.
Dopp never really could and was more of a hippie minister than a sexual pervert looking for Biblical validation.
Weirwille had these concepts, notions, urges, illnesses and tried to find a way to SELL them to us. He was not about to CHANGE his thinking according to scripture. He was not a researcher. He was similar to a lot of cult leaders. He had an idea and looked for people who would buy into it. Like Charlie Manson."
The whole line about "if God wasn't okay with sex outside of marriage, he'd have said 'best' instead of 'good'" is a perfect example of how Wierwille pulled biblical interpretation out of his rear end. Who says God "would have" said best instead of good? He did this kind of stuff all the time - it God had meant xyz he would have used this Greek word instead of that Greek word - from a guy who didn't really understand English grammar let alone Greek or Hebrew
It's also a good example of vpw saying ONE thing while the cameras were rolling
and ANOTHER thing that contradicted it when in private.
In private, he said God was ok with orgies, and asked women he was not
married to, to have sex with him in one form or another.
In public, he spent whole minutes of the 7-session "Christian Family and Sex"
class reading "flee fornication" and "avoid fornication" and so on.
So, the gullible say "I heard him say 'avoid fornication', so it's impossible
he was just deceiving me while telling other people to fornicate."
(He even told lcm he'd need to get comfortable with having sex with women
Recommended Posts
waysider
Ever been to an Amway meeting? You get me to join. I get someone else to join. They get yet another person to join. We're all selling memberships. Meanwhile, who's selling the soap?
That's The Way in a nutshell. You get me to take the class. I get someone else to take the class. They get yet another person to take the class. We're all selling memberships. Meanwhile, who's actually living "the abundant life"?
It was an MLM at its very core. The only thing to feel guilty about (at the time) was not recruiting enough new members.
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WordWolf
Well,
hindsight is often 20/20.
However, from here, it's obvious he was trying to make an organization
of youngsters who were fine with casual sex.
When he heard about Christian hippies, he went right over.
(Media depictions often made them seem like you could find
hippie chicks into casual sex easily if you could find hippie chicks.)
In TW:LiL he even telegraphed that.
pg-232.
"And I liked especially the tenderness among them. You see,
they themselves had previously been on sex and dope, so they didn't
find fault with everything all the time. They'd hug and kiss each
other and that I liked. They were always affectionate. I saw a lot
that I liked there."
He also asked Jim D00P for details about orgies.
Jim was happy that his limited involvement in those things was past
and that he was delivered from them. vpw tried to tell him that he
was mistaken-that God Almighty was ok with ORGIES.
According to Jim's account,
"You know that's all available," V.P. said. "God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'"
I could not believe what I was hearing. I responded with, "I just thank God that He pulled our soul out of that pit of debauchery." When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her, "I don't believe what he said tonight, and I'm going to forget it. I must have misunderstood him."
==================================
I wrote this once before:
"I thought I saw someone comment about orgies in twi. As far as I know, there were no actual orgies
in twi. (At least, I've never heard of any, and I wasn't invited if there were any.)
However, now that I give the matter a little thought, it's obvious this was something vpw WANTED but
couldn't HAVE. Look back at when he hijacked the hippies. He read about Christians in the Haight-Ashbury
area omong the hippies. He'd heard that there was a lot of "free love" among hippies, including orgies.
vpw headed out specifically to THOSE Christians. (Not any more local to him, even though it would have been
easier to stay in contact with some, say, within a state or so at some college.) He approached them,
and noted (even in the sanitized version) how comfortable they were with each other's bodies. He
EXPECTED to find hippie Christians who were comfortable with orgies, and that seemed to support his
expectation. When alone and drinking with J1m D00p, vpw asked him-repeatedly- about attendance at
an orgy, and pressed for SPECIFICS. At that moment, vpw VOLUNTEERED his own invention- a twisting of
a verse to claim God was ok with orgies. When D00p resisted the idea, vpw dropped the subject.
Time for Plan B- sex with individual hippychicks without orgies. When pliant hippychicks failed to
drop out of the sky (boy, what a waste of time to have gone to Haight-Ashbury, he hasn't been able
to score any boom-boom from the trip, even after!) he goes to Plan C- using the recruited hippies to
recruit youngsters (which he was already doing), and recruit from among THOSE youngsters to bring
some on campus, where he could try to cheat on his wife and see how many were willing to have
sex with him. That led to Plan D- tricking women into having sex with him from among those on campus.
If you look at this from a perspective of "was vpw looking to score sex partners?" then the entire
history of twi becomes frighteningly CONSISTENT and makes a lot of sense. Granted, I think he also
wanted money, a comfortable living, and much bestowed respect, but the path he selected seems to have
been steered straight for "youngsters who might be ok with casual sex with an old married guy."
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penworks
Wordwolf,
Did Jim Doop publish these quotes you attribute to him? Are they in Karl Kahler's book?
Thanks,
Penworks
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skyrider
And.....that's why books are written.
And.....that's why some GS's post.
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citygirl99
The obsession with sex still goes on in New Knoxville.
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WordWolf
Technically, they are direct from his own book. AFAIK, he never had it mass-produced.
One poster (ex-cathedra) had a copy and posted excerpts from it.
===================================
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=160989
"As we relaxed and had a second drink, he asked Judy and me to describe what is was like to attend an orgy. We were taken back by the question and embarrassed by it, because even though it was part of our testimony in our deliverance from sin to God's righteousness, no one had ever asked us to describe what it was like to go to an orgy. We found his curiosity shocking. But we gave him a brief description which is really all we could give him since our encounter with an orgy had been so brief. We had attended one orgy sponsored by the San Francisco Sexual Freedom League, but we were so overwhelmed by the spectacle that we had left after twenty minutes.
"You know that's all available," V.P. said. "God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'"
I could not believe what I was hearing. I responded with, "I just thank God that He pulled our soul out of that pit of debauchery." When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her, "I don't believe what he said tonight, and I'm going to forget it. I must have misunderstood him."
=========================
A different poster (Sunesis) spoke directly with Jim, and he said the same thing to her.
========================
'Anyway, Jim told me he had gone to one orgy, and he and his wife didn't like it and did not continue with them. But VP, when he visited SF and the Haight, kept pestering Jim for details. Jim also said, on their down time, he'd go with VP to the porno theatres. Jim said VP treated him like a son, it was the height of the hippie, free love thing, so at that time, even though he thought it a bit weird, he didn't think it was a big deal.
He was also terribly hurt, "betrayed" was the word he used, when VP had the infamous meeting and wrenched control of the Way West from California and all the money now had to go to HQ because VP had promised he would never do that, it was all about the Word. "
==========================
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WordWolf
Both of those accounts matched Dot Matrix' discussions with Jim.
"Weirwille sought things to validate his position. He did NOT research the word and change his opinion to IT. I became pretty good friends with Jim D**p. He told me that he, Jim, had a ministry where they were sexually loose and an anything goes kinda group out in California. Weirwille flew out there, telling folks it was to talk with Jim about the Bible and witness or something to him. Jim told me Weirwille flew out there to LEARN from Jimmy about the free sex thinking. Weirwille said he always believed sex should be free and allowed with as many as you feel you want to be with -- but could NEVER prove it from the Bible. He was there to see if Jimmy could prove it was okay via scripture.
Dopp never really could and was more of a hippie minister than a sexual pervert looking for Biblical validation.
Weirwille had these concepts, notions, urges, illnesses and tried to find a way to SELL them to us. He was not about to CHANGE his thinking according to scripture. He was not a researcher. He was similar to a lot of cult leaders. He had an idea and looked for people who would buy into it. Like Charlie Manson."
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skyrider
Here is what I remember as wierwille's definition of "righteousness."
Righteousness: The ability to stand in the presence of God without any sense
of guilt, sin or shortcoming.
Couldn't one make the case that such a self-gratifying definition would equate
to one having their conscience seared with a hot iron....having departed
from the faith of Jesus Christ? Just because someone thinks that
he can sin over and over and over again, and God will cleanse him EVERYTIME
doesn't make it so.
Wierwille sold his followers seductive definitions that skewed the truth into a lie.
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Oakspear
The whole line about "if God wasn't okay with sex outside of marriage, he'd have said 'best' instead of 'good'" is a perfect example of how Wierwille pulled biblical interpretation out of his rear end. Who says God "would have" said best instead of good? He did this kind of stuff all the time - it God had meant xyz he would have used this Greek word instead of that Greek word - from a guy who didn't really understand English grammar let alone Greek or Hebrew
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Bolshevik
False Dichotomy fallacy?
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penworks
Thanks, WordWolf. This is important info!
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WordWolf
It's also a good example of vpw saying ONE thing while the cameras were rolling
and ANOTHER thing that contradicted it when in private.
In private, he said God was ok with orgies, and asked women he was not
married to, to have sex with him in one form or another.
In public, he spent whole minutes of the 7-session "Christian Family and Sex"
class reading "flee fornication" and "avoid fornication" and so on.
So, the gullible say "I heard him say 'avoid fornication', so it's impossible
he was just deceiving me while telling other people to fornicate."
(He even told lcm he'd need to get comfortable with having sex with women
outside his marriage.)
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