. . . . what was sitting smack out the front ?!....
A confirmation bias?
If I remember we were to act on "believing". If things just happened to work out. Believing was "demonstrated". If it didn't work out, there was a "lack of believing".
If I understand correctly, believing can be measured. There should be some way to measure, document, predict within defined uncertainty, and demonstrate its usefulness. There should be more than anecdotal evidence.
So......to receive anything [spiritual or material] from God you've got to know
these five (5) keys: 1) What is available? 2) How to receive it? 3) What to do with it
after you've got it 4) Needs and Wants Parallel and 5) God's ability equals His willingness.
. . .
The mental knots just pile up. Any one of those keys/points are up for on-going eternal debate. Makes it a "Law" impossible to understand.
With such confidence folks scolded others to increase their "believing". I agree believing was self-delusion. Think vpw knew that? What purpose was The Law of Believing serving?
"Another promise in the Epistle of I John! Way in the back of your Bible! I John! The Epistle of I John! First! Second! Third John!
I John 5:14: And this is the confidence [this is the confidence] that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, [if we ask any thing according to his will] he heareth us:
Isn't that wonderful? If we have our need and our want parallel we ask anything according to His will; how can it be His Will if we don't know His Word? His Word is His Will that gets our need and our want parallel. If we know His Word we can parallel it off. And once we get our need and want parallel, whatsoever we ask, we get.
Many years ago when I was first questing in the integrity and accuracy of God's Word and doing Biblical research, just starting in the field, there were some things in the Word of God that we believed and that we understood and were practicing in our prayer life. And we were really concerned about learning more about God's Word.
We had a letter from one of our radio audience from Cincinnati. And this good lady stipulated in that letter stating the following: she said, "now on Thursday night when you have your prayer group meeting and you meet with your people; I'd like for you to pray for an apartment for me. Because I have to find this apartment and I would like for this apartment to be within walking distance, two or three blocks from where I am employed." And she said, "It has to be a furnished apartment because I do not have my own furniture," and she said, "while your praying for this apartment within this area of where I am gainfully employed will you please ask God that in this furnished apartment there will be red drapes on the living room windows."
My, oh my. That shook me. I thought to myself well good lord, if I'm going to pray for her for an apartment and she gets that apartment she ought to be thankful. What difference does if make if its got pink drapes or yellow drapes or orange drapes on the living room window? But she had stipulated in her letter please pray that there be red drapes on the window.
Well I don't know who did the believing, I helped in the praying but I want to tell you something that night spiritually I hadn't gone this far; I believed for the apartment this I could believe for, it was a need I understood this. So I believed that she'd have an apartment but I can't imagine and I know that I did not believe anything about drapes at all.
But we prayed that evening and within fifteen minutes of the time when we had prayed for this situation this lady in Cincinnati many, many, many miles away had a telephone call from an entire stranger who said to her "a friend of yours told me that you have need of an apartment, is this right?" And she said, "yes." And she said, "well where's it located?" He said, "well such and such a place." Within two blocks of where she was employed. So she said to him, "May I come and see it in the morning?" He said, "You certainly may."
They made an appointment. She went next morning and looked at this apartment. And when she walked into the living room what do you think the color of those drapes were on those living room windows? Green, oh no they weren't. They were fire engine red. That's right.
People, she must have had her need and her want parallel. Look at this. All right! She rented a furnished apartment and it had to have drapes on the window, right? Does it make God any difference whether the drapes are green or red or pink? No, but she had a need, that need was that they might as well have red drapes on, that's what she wanted. She got her need and her want parallel. She not only got that apartment but she got the red drapes on the windows.
You talk about the accuracy of God's Word when He said He'll supply all of our need according to His riches in glory. Doesn't say He'll supply our greed but He'll supply our need according to His riches in glory. That's true. It's wonderful."
=================================================
[That was obvously far too STUPID to survive scrutiny.
So, when it came time to transcribe the classes, this made-up story
......And she said, "It has to be a furnished apartment because I do not have my own furniture," and she said, "while your praying for this apartment within this area of where I am gainfully employed will you please ask God that in this furnished apartment there will be red drapes on the living room windows."
My, oh my. That shook me. I thought to myself well good lord, if I'm going to pray for her for an apartment and she gets that apartment she ought to be thankful. What difference does if make if its got pink drapes or yellow drapes or orange drapes on the living room window? But she had stipulated in her letter please pray that there be red drapes on the window.
Thanks WordWolf.......yeah, wierwille could embellish a story and, as you noted,
it speaks VOLUMES that it wasn't transcribed wholesale.
Wierwille was a showman and a con artist. Notice how CONTRIVED this story is with
such stuff like "of where I am gainfully employed" and the like? Reminds me of his
CONTRIVED snow-on-the-gas-pumps audible voice from God story. :rolleyes:/>/>/>
No, but she had a need, that need was that they might as well have red drapes on,
that's what she wanted.
According to this made-up story, she needed an apartment AND easy access to get to her work.
So....why limit the parameters of where the apartment was located? What she NEEDED was a car.
And, if a car fulfills the need, why should it be just any old car when she WANTED specifics?
Besides, if it didn't make any difference to God.....because her "needs and wants were parallel"
The mental knots just pile up. Any one of those keys/points are up for on-going eternal debate. Makes it a "Law" impossible to understand.
With such confidence folks scolded others to increase their "believing". I agree believing was self-delusion. Think vpw knew that? What purpose was The Law of Believing serving?
What purpose was "the law of believing" serving?
Well.....in all its bravado, it provided an end-run around the scriptures
thereby side-stepping accountability by the uppity-ups. Wierwille flaunted
his spiritual perception via his stories and elusive past.
Name me ONE THING that wierwille/martindale/geer did that amounted to
UNDENIABLY RECEIVING FROM GOD via this "law of believing?"
This house of cards was built on those fire-engine RED DRAPES
in some living room of an elusive, fabricated story?
Believed to receive ? they may very well have done in their early Christian walk before becoming weary and cynical, like many others. I think the 'joy' of the Lord has much to do with believing and receiving, as does love when it comes to energizing ones faith.
I remember LCM talking(or yelling) about how if one person in the room didn't have enough believing, then his (LCM's) decisions wouldn't work.
Believing was so handy that you didn't have to take responsibility for much. You can't control another's believing. But they can negate yours. Unless you believe bigger than them. Unless of course someone else . . . somewhere . . . secretly believing something to thwart you. But you didn't believe enough to know about them?
saint and sinner alike....hmmnnnn, this was my other line of thought because there are plenty of self empowering, focusing, directional books and conferences that go on....Tony Robins is one motivator ( change your thoughts/change your life )expounder. I have read up quite a bit lately about prayer vibration, a quick google brings up lots of sites and information...only difference is I prefer to give the glory to God Almighty, as He would have set the whole deal, physics, multi- dimensional thingy up.
Point being, scientists for what they have figured out about life and the cosmos is really an infintisamly minute amount of what is out there...and here !!! Some scientists say there could be ten or even more dimensions than the three or four we have figured out, they talk about God particles and dark matter and 'string theories'...one thing is darn sure to many of us...Something a bit more intelligent than us figured and planned it all out.
I would think that by this time we have established that twi/vpw preached a false premise about believing. We have also established that what you pray/believe for must be in accordance with what God wants as well. We have established that God is true to his promises and that we must pray/believe/sit in accordance with what is available from His promises - which is alot and more than we could think to stash in our "prayer availability file". So, are we done with this thread are is there more for us to bloviate or dis twi/vpw about - sometimes, I just don't want to hear about twi/vpw but rather the folks here that have done some very good research on this topic. It has been enlightening and changed my prayer activety - as I posted earlier.
Now, no one responded to my question about negative believing (consistent negative attitude) and fear. Direct me please to another thread or the need to start a new one.
And hey, let's not get upset if someone addresses us incorrectly by not splitting the name correctly or using caps or mispelling, we are all more than that.
I would think that by this time we have established that twi/vpw preached a false premise about believing.
Oddly enough, there's posters here that disagree with you.
We have also established that what you pray/believe for must be in accordance with what God wants as well. We have established that God is true to his promises and that we must pray/believe/sit in accordance with what is available from His promises - which is alot and more than we could think to stash in our "prayer availability file".
Oddly enough, there's posters here that disagree with you.
They're making claims you can cast a mountain into the sea
with enough "believing", as if you have a Green Lantern
power ring.
So, are we done with this thread are is there more for us to bloviate or dis twi/vpw about - sometimes, I just don't want to hear about twi/vpw but rather the folks here that have done some very good research on this topic. It has been enlightening and changed my prayer activety - as I posted earlier.
Now, no one responded to my question about negative believing (consistent negative attitude) and fear. Direct me please to another thread or the need to start a new one.
And hey, let's not get upset if someone addresses us incorrectly by not splitting the name correctly or using caps or mispelling, we are all more than that.
Bless you all, this has been a great thread.
I tend to let a capitalization error slide. When posters are not credited for
their posts and others get the credit for it, I tend to say something
if I catch it.
It's been pointed out there's a paper trail that points back from vpw's
so-called "law" of believing to Spiritualists like Albert E. Cliffe.
I think "fear" is a suitable topic for this thread, MRAP, since Wierwille taught that fear is believing in reverse.
Wierwille also taught that fear is sand in the machinery of life, and that it ALWAYS encases, ALWAYS enslaves and ALWAYS binds.
First, what is fear in actuality? There are two communication systems within the body: the nervous system which transmits messages by means of electrical signals, and the hormonal system which transmits messages by means of chemical signals.
"Thoughts" are products of our nervous systems, and "feelings" are products of our hormonal systems. The two systems are not entirely separate and independent. Our feelings can effect our thoughts, and our thoughts can effect our feelings. Feelings are called eMOTIONS because they MOVE us. They cause us to move. Emotions can be classified by what they move us to do. Fear is the emotion that causes us to move into right relation with the object of the fear. The right relation with a rattlesnake is outside of striking range. Fear is the emotion that moves us to get outside of the snake's striking range. The right relation with the IRS is to have our filings on time and our taxes paid up. Fear of the IRS is the emotion that moves us to file our taxes on time and to pay them up.
The right relation with God is one of humility, "You are God and I am not." The fear of the Lord moves us to stay humble before God. The fear of the Lord is NOT a bad thing! It is not the same as fear of punishment. It is the overwhelming sense of awe we feel when we truly recognize what God is doing for us all around us all the time. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of true knowledge and of true wisdom.
Where there is no fear of the Lord, the deceitfulness and desperate wickedness of the heart are given full rein.
Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV)
1 An oracle is within my heart
concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God
before his eyes.
2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
4 Even on his bed he plots evil;
he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong.
Wierwille spent a tremendous amount of effort, systematizing his errors, to rationalize ignoring Romans 11:20b, "Be not hignminded but fear:" Wierwille DID NOT WANT to fear God, because he so enjoyed being HIGHMINDED! And the benefits of being highminded, as listed in Psalm 36:1-4 accrued to him in his life.
I remember LCM talking(or yelling) about how if one person in the room didn't have enough believing, then his (LCM's) decisions wouldn't work.
Believing was so handy that you didn't have to take responsibility for much. You can't control another's believing. But they can negate yours. Unless you believe bigger than them. Unless of course someone else . . . somewhere . . . secretly believing something to thwart you. But you didn't believe enough to know about them?
"Now, no one responded to my question about negative believing (consistent negative attitude) and fear."
Re: The difference between positive and negative believing.
With positive believing, you have to follow rules, lots of rules. You have to focus, concentrate, give it enough time and so on and so forth. VPW said that you have to satisfy all the five rules or your efforts would be in vain. And, even then, if someone is believing in opposition they can cancel you out. It's hard stuff. Takes a lot of diligence.
Negative believing, on the other hand, is a piece of cake. All you have to do is confess it to possess it. Want to come down with the flu? Just tell someone your throat feels scratchy and it's all yours. Simple. Afraid you're going to crack up (in your car)? No problem. Just think about it. You'll be dead by this time next year. God would have to change the laws of the entire universe to stop it from happening.
Conclusion:
Negative believing is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.
Positive believing is lots and lots of work. It requires precision and diligence.
My recommendation is to fear that something cool will happen to you. Like winning the lottery. That way, you can skip all that tedium of trying to make positive believing work for you.
Yep, old Eli Stanley Jones ("The Billy Graham of India") must have known what he was talking about when he famously stated that "Fear is the sand in the machinery of life".
I don't think fear is negative. It can drive people to do positive things. It can drive people to negative things too. Or nothing, be it for better or worse.
Fear as I understand is an emotion. Once again part of training by The Way to have people ignore their emotions, and not understand themselves, or be able to empathize with others.
By focusing on positive believing and its benefits and rewards, and avoiding negative believing, you're doing yourself a great disservice.
I remember LCM talking(or yelling) about how if one person in the room didn't have enough believing, then his (LCM's) decisions wouldn't work.
Believing was so handy that you didn't have to take responsibility for much. You can't control another's believing. But they can negate yours. Unless you believe bigger than them. Unless of course someone else . . . somewhere . . . secretly believing something to thwart you. But you didn't believe enough to know about them?
If I'm remembering correctly, somewhere along the line Wierwille taught about Matthew 13:58, "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief."
He said there was such a thing in a community as "the temperature of believing," and that this temperature influenced what could happen. It doesn't seem to me that Wierwille himself ever laid much emphasis on this, but Martindale made a big deal out of it in the classes he taught on the book of Acts. I think Martindale then used it as a rationalization for why HE couldn't get anything done. It's piteous how far the mighty have fallen when the unbelief of one little person in the room can defeat ALL the believing of the man of God of the world for this our day and time!
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waysider
Have you ever seen, heard of, read about anyone actually casting a mountain into the sea? I should think that should be your first clue that the verse is not meant to be interpreted literally.
Steve Lortz
There is NO POWER WHATSOEVER in believing... The only power in a belief transaction is the power of the person who made the promise to keep it. If God makes a promise to do something, and that thing
krys
One of the points of GreaseSpot is to act as a place where we (all or individually) hang out a big sign warning everyone away from the corn field. That must continue until the cornfield doesn't exist
waysider
But they weren't just red, they were FIRE ENGINE RED!
Every woman's decorating dream come true.
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Bolshevik
A confirmation bias?
If I remember we were to act on "believing". If things just happened to work out. Believing was "demonstrated". If it didn't work out, there was a "lack of believing".
If I understand correctly, believing can be measured. There should be some way to measure, document, predict within defined uncertainty, and demonstrate its usefulness. There should be more than anecdotal evidence.
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waysider
" There should be some way to measure, document, predict within defined uncertainty, and demonstrate its usefulness."
....and that's why it's not a "law" at all. If it was a law, it would work every time the conditions are met.
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Bolshevik
The mental knots just pile up. Any one of those keys/points are up for on-going eternal debate. Makes it a "Law" impossible to understand.
With such confidence folks scolded others to increase their "believing". I agree believing was self-delusion. Think vpw knew that? What purpose was The Law of Believing serving?
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WordWolf
[Here's what was said in the actual class.
I hope it entertains you as much as it entertains me.]
==========================================================
"Another promise in the Epistle of I John! Way in the back of your Bible! I John! The Epistle of I John! First! Second! Third John!
I John 5:14: And this is the confidence [this is the confidence] that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, [if we ask any thing according to his will] he heareth us:
Isn't that wonderful? If we have our need and our want parallel we ask anything according to His will; how can it be His Will if we don't know His Word? His Word is His Will that gets our need and our want parallel. If we know His Word we can parallel it off. And once we get our need and want parallel, whatsoever we ask, we get.
Many years ago when I was first questing in the integrity and accuracy of God's Word and doing Biblical research, just starting in the field, there were some things in the Word of God that we believed and that we understood and were practicing in our prayer life. And we were really concerned about learning more about God's Word.
We had a letter from one of our radio audience from Cincinnati. And this good lady stipulated in that letter stating the following: she said, "now on Thursday night when you have your prayer group meeting and you meet with your people; I'd like for you to pray for an apartment for me. Because I have to find this apartment and I would like for this apartment to be within walking distance, two or three blocks from where I am employed." And she said, "It has to be a furnished apartment because I do not have my own furniture," and she said, "while your praying for this apartment within this area of where I am gainfully employed will you please ask God that in this furnished apartment there will be red drapes on the living room windows."
My, oh my. That shook me. I thought to myself well good lord, if I'm going to pray for her for an apartment and she gets that apartment she ought to be thankful. What difference does if make if its got pink drapes or yellow drapes or orange drapes on the living room window? But she had stipulated in her letter please pray that there be red drapes on the window.
Well I don't know who did the believing, I helped in the praying but I want to tell you something that night spiritually I hadn't gone this far; I believed for the apartment this I could believe for, it was a need I understood this. So I believed that she'd have an apartment but I can't imagine and I know that I did not believe anything about drapes at all.
But we prayed that evening and within fifteen minutes of the time when we had prayed for this situation this lady in Cincinnati many, many, many miles away had a telephone call from an entire stranger who said to her "a friend of yours told me that you have need of an apartment, is this right?" And she said, "yes." And she said, "well where's it located?" He said, "well such and such a place." Within two blocks of where she was employed. So she said to him, "May I come and see it in the morning?" He said, "You certainly may."
They made an appointment. She went next morning and looked at this apartment. And when she walked into the living room what do you think the color of those drapes were on those living room windows? Green, oh no they weren't. They were fire engine red. That's right.
People, she must have had her need and her want parallel. Look at this. All right! She rented a furnished apartment and it had to have drapes on the window, right? Does it make God any difference whether the drapes are green or red or pink? No, but she had a need, that need was that they might as well have red drapes on, that's what she wanted. She got her need and her want parallel. She not only got that apartment but she got the red drapes on the windows.
You talk about the accuracy of God's Word when He said He'll supply all of our need according to His riches in glory. Doesn't say He'll supply our greed but He'll supply our need according to His riches in glory. That's true. It's wonderful."
=================================================
[That was obvously far too STUPID to survive scrutiny.
So, when it came time to transcribe the classes, this made-up story
that vpw INSISTED happened was not included.]
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skyrider
Thanks WordWolf.......yeah, wierwille could embellish a story and, as you noted,
it speaks VOLUMES that it wasn't transcribed wholesale.
Wierwille was a showman and a con artist. Notice how CONTRIVED this story is with
such stuff like "of where I am gainfully employed" and the like? Reminds me of his
CONTRIVED snow-on-the-gas-pumps audible voice from God story. :rolleyes:/>/>/>
According to this made-up story, she needed an apartment AND easy access to get to her work.
So....why limit the parameters of where the apartment was located? What she NEEDED was a car.
And, if a car fulfills the need, why should it be just any old car when she WANTED specifics?
Besides, if it didn't make any difference to God.....because her "needs and wants were parallel"
then the car might as well be a Mercedes Benz.
.
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Oakspear
Best post all week!
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skyrider
What purpose was "the law of believing" serving?
Well.....in all its bravado, it provided an end-run around the scriptures
thereby side-stepping accountability by the uppity-ups. Wierwille flaunted
his spiritual perception via his stories and elusive past.
Name me ONE THING that wierwille/martindale/geer did that amounted to
UNDENIABLY RECEIVING FROM GOD via this "law of believing?"
This house of cards was built on those fire-engine RED DRAPES
in some living room of an elusive, fabricated story?
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Allan
Believed to receive ? they may very well have done in their early Christian walk before becoming weary and cynical, like many others. I think the 'joy' of the Lord has much to do with believing and receiving, as does love when it comes to energizing ones faith.
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waysider
What about the "works for saint and sinner alike" part?
Any thoughts?
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Bolshevik
I remember LCM talking(or yelling) about how if one person in the room didn't have enough believing, then his (LCM's) decisions wouldn't work.
Believing was so handy that you didn't have to take responsibility for much. You can't control another's believing. But they can negate yours. Unless you believe bigger than them. Unless of course someone else . . . somewhere . . . secretly believing something to thwart you. But you didn't believe enough to know about them?
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Allan
saint and sinner alike....hmmnnnn, this was my other line of thought because there are plenty of self empowering, focusing, directional books and conferences that go on....Tony Robins is one motivator ( change your thoughts/change your life )expounder. I have read up quite a bit lately about prayer vibration, a quick google brings up lots of sites and information...only difference is I prefer to give the glory to God Almighty, as He would have set the whole deal, physics, multi- dimensional thingy up.
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Allan
Point being, scientists for what they have figured out about life and the cosmos is really an infintisamly minute amount of what is out there...and here !!! Some scientists say there could be ten or even more dimensions than the three or four we have figured out, they talk about God particles and dark matter and 'string theories'...one thing is darn sure to many of us...Something a bit more intelligent than us figured and planned it all out.
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waysider
All you really need is a little
Wierwille had seed faith.
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MRAP
I would think that by this time we have established that twi/vpw preached a false premise about believing. We have also established that what you pray/believe for must be in accordance with what God wants as well. We have established that God is true to his promises and that we must pray/believe/sit in accordance with what is available from His promises - which is alot and more than we could think to stash in our "prayer availability file". So, are we done with this thread are is there more for us to bloviate or dis twi/vpw about - sometimes, I just don't want to hear about twi/vpw but rather the folks here that have done some very good research on this topic. It has been enlightening and changed my prayer activety - as I posted earlier.
Now, no one responded to my question about negative believing (consistent negative attitude) and fear. Direct me please to another thread or the need to start a new one.
And hey, let's not get upset if someone addresses us incorrectly by not splitting the name correctly or using caps or mispelling, we are all more than that.
Bless you all, this has been a great thread.
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WordWolf
Oddly enough, there's posters here that disagree with you.
Oddly enough, there's posters here that disagree with you.
They're making claims you can cast a mountain into the sea
with enough "believing", as if you have a Green Lantern
power ring.
I tend to let a capitalization error slide. When posters are not credited for
their posts and others get the credit for it, I tend to say something
if I catch it.
It's been pointed out there's a paper trail that points back from vpw's
so-called "law" of believing to Spiritualists like Albert E. Cliffe.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_lawbelieve.htm
===================
vpw was fond of selling supposed PHYSICAL, MEASURABLE things.
"His" entire foundation for "Power for Abundant Living" was based on it.
Here's the Orange Book's introduction in its entirety.
-------------------------------------
"Introduction: the Abundant Life.
Jesus' proclamation as recorded in John 10:10 is the foundational
Scripture for this book.
...I am come that they [believers] might have life, and that
they might have it more abundantly.
This verse literally changed my life. My wife and I began in
the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God,
but somehow we lacked an abundant life.
Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the
Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more
abundant. I was startled into awareness. As I looked about me
at communities where I had served and among the ministers with
whom I had worked, the abundant life was frequently not
evident. In contrast to these Christian people, I could see that
the secular world of non-Christians were manifesting a more
abundant life than were members of the Church. Thus I
earnestly began to pursue the question:
'If Jesus Christ came that men and women might have a
MORE ABUNDANT LIFE, then why is it that the Christian
believers do not manifest even an ABUNDANT LIFE?'
I believe most people would be thankful if they ever lived
an abundant life; but The Word says Jesus Christ came that
we might have life not just abundant, but more abundant.
If His Word is not reliable here in John 10:10, how can we
trust it anywhere else? But, on the other hand, if
Jesus told the truth, if He meant what He said and said what
He meant in this declaration, then surely there must be
keys, signposts, to guide us to the understanding and the
receiving of this life which is more than abundant.
This book, POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING, is one way of
showing interested people the abundany life which Jesus
Christ lived and which He came to make available to
believers as it is revealed in the Word of God.
This is a book containing Biblical keys. The contents herein
do not teach the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to
Revelation 22:21; rather, it is designed to set before the
reader the basic keys in the Word of God so that
Genesis to Revelation will unfold and so that the
abundant life which Jesus Christ came to make available will
become evident to those who want to appropriate
God's abundance to their lives. "
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Steve Lortz
I think "fear" is a suitable topic for this thread, MRAP, since Wierwille taught that fear is believing in reverse.
Wierwille also taught that fear is sand in the machinery of life, and that it ALWAYS encases, ALWAYS enslaves and ALWAYS binds.
First, what is fear in actuality? There are two communication systems within the body: the nervous system which transmits messages by means of electrical signals, and the hormonal system which transmits messages by means of chemical signals.
"Thoughts" are products of our nervous systems, and "feelings" are products of our hormonal systems. The two systems are not entirely separate and independent. Our feelings can effect our thoughts, and our thoughts can effect our feelings. Feelings are called eMOTIONS because they MOVE us. They cause us to move. Emotions can be classified by what they move us to do. Fear is the emotion that causes us to move into right relation with the object of the fear. The right relation with a rattlesnake is outside of striking range. Fear is the emotion that moves us to get outside of the snake's striking range. The right relation with the IRS is to have our filings on time and our taxes paid up. Fear of the IRS is the emotion that moves us to file our taxes on time and to pay them up.
The right relation with God is one of humility, "You are God and I am not." The fear of the Lord moves us to stay humble before God. The fear of the Lord is NOT a bad thing! It is not the same as fear of punishment. It is the overwhelming sense of awe we feel when we truly recognize what God is doing for us all around us all the time. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of true knowledge and of true wisdom.
Where there is no fear of the Lord, the deceitfulness and desperate wickedness of the heart are given full rein.
Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV)
1 An oracle is within my heart
concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God
before his eyes.
2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
4 Even on his bed he plots evil;
he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong.
Wierwille spent a tremendous amount of effort, systematizing his errors, to rationalize ignoring Romans 11:20b, "Be not hignminded but fear:" Wierwille DID NOT WANT to fear God, because he so enjoyed being HIGHMINDED! And the benefits of being highminded, as listed in Psalm 36:1-4 accrued to him in his life.
Love,
Steve
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Rocky
Stark.
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waysider
"Now, no one responded to my question about negative believing (consistent negative attitude) and fear."
Re: The difference between positive and negative believing.
With positive believing, you have to follow rules, lots of rules. You have to focus, concentrate, give it enough time and so on and so forth. VPW said that you have to satisfy all the five rules or your efforts would be in vain. And, even then, if someone is believing in opposition they can cancel you out. It's hard stuff. Takes a lot of diligence.
Negative believing, on the other hand, is a piece of cake. All you have to do is confess it to possess it. Want to come down with the flu? Just tell someone your throat feels scratchy and it's all yours. Simple. Afraid you're going to crack up (in your car)? No problem. Just think about it. You'll be dead by this time next year. God would have to change the laws of the entire universe to stop it from happening.
Conclusion:
Negative believing is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.
Positive believing is lots and lots of work. It requires precision and diligence.
My recommendation is to fear that something cool will happen to you. Like winning the lottery. That way, you can skip all that tedium of trying to make positive believing work for you.
Yep, old Eli Stanley Jones ("The Billy Graham of India") must have known what he was talking about when he famously stated that "Fear is the sand in the machinery of life".
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Bolshevik
Excellent point Waysider.
Fear is associated as a negative.
I don't think fear is negative. It can drive people to do positive things. It can drive people to negative things too. Or nothing, be it for better or worse.
Fear as I understand is an emotion. Once again part of training by The Way to have people ignore their emotions, and not understand themselves, or be able to empathize with others.
By focusing on positive believing and its benefits and rewards, and avoiding negative believing, you're doing yourself a great disservice.
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waysider
Can you believe for God to fill a pothole?
THIS guy thinks you can.
Eh, seems like small peanuts compared to casting a mountain into the sea.
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Rocky
From the article, it appears that the mayor couldn't pray his townsfolk into approving a tax hike to cover the cost of street maintenance.
This tangent could get political, so let me disclaim from the start. I see it as a problem with the guy's understanding of his god.
As I read it, the potholes presented the mayor with an obvious dilemma.
He apparently decided to believe the Almighty Paving Crew and Street Fixers would take care of it. Might it have been more prudent
for the mayor to ask God for wisdom and the ability to move the hearts (and/or minds) of his constituents instead (to brainstorm ideas
on how to solve whatever underlying problem was occurring in the town government?
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Steve Lortz
If I'm remembering correctly, somewhere along the line Wierwille taught about Matthew 13:58, "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief."
He said there was such a thing in a community as "the temperature of believing," and that this temperature influenced what could happen. It doesn't seem to me that Wierwille himself ever laid much emphasis on this, but Martindale made a big deal out of it in the classes he taught on the book of Acts. I think Martindale then used it as a rationalization for why HE couldn't get anything done. It's piteous how far the mighty have fallen when the unbelief of one little person in the room can defeat ALL the believing of the man of God of the world for this our day and time!
Love,
Steve
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waysider
".......the man of God of the world for this our day and time!"
Is your tongue alright?
You must have been biting it pretty hard as you typed that.
:P
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