So what IS believing?

[MRAP]

Well let me say this has been a very life changing thread, at least to me. Twinky has laid out some excellent base concepts and things to not get wrapped around the axle on, as it were. Allan and Steve have been outstanding in splitting "threads" as it were.

I said, "life changing" and I mean it. I still beleive in beleiving: I beleive that beleiving works but see a change in the manner in which I beleive and also pray to include the use of SIT as part of that prayer process.

I no longer "think" that I can beleive to bring something to pass, unless of course, that is God's will and intent. God has made many promises to us. My change in prayer "beleiving" is that it's much more of a thanking process for those things he wants for us in our lives anyway - that's to His glory. I can SIT, which is also giving thanks.

The big change, it's now more trust In God to fulfill his promises and the "beleiving" for the "event or thing" is no longer on my shoulders, it's God's job to fulfill his promises and my requirement is to trust Him to accomplish it.

In reality, it does not change much of my prayer process other than my mind set during the prayer. I still continue to SIT as I drift off to sleep, not really thinking about much other than the tongue itself and God's goodness, knowing all the things promised by SIT that it's a great commo and it places my mind at ease knowing I am in commo with the Father.

No, I am not making this into a SIT thread but to me, SIT and beleiving and prayer are quite interwoven.

In closing, I just want to say thanks to all the posters on this thread, I found it a help. Now, if I got this all screwed up or you can provide me further comment, I would appreciate those comments.

As normally is done: if this thread gets moved to a different forum, please make it well known, maybe state it on the "shout box", everybody sees that.

[Human without the bean]

I know the topic of believing has never been discussed here before. :rolleyes:/>/>/>

I've come to the conclusion that twi's believing is NOT faith, of any form, . . . although faith may be involved?

Any ideas on what twi's *believing* really was? Just a secret password maybe?

I want to chime in with an opinion about what The Way International thought believing was for a minute here. That was the original question I think, although I have enjoyed the posts that are being put up right now.

Remember those pyramid schemes from the 70's and 80's? That's what twi was playing. A loose definition of a pyramid scheme is, "you simply get invited to one (does this sound familiar?) by someone you know for $100.00 (huh, $100) and money keeps working its way to the top people".

Very popular in those decades were pyramid schemes and they were designed to make a lot of money if you were one of the top people in the scheme. That's probably why they were made illegal, you think. I never made it off the first tier myself.

[newlife]

I was thinking about the book of Acts.....the apostles healed people, cast out spirits, etc........that's, to me, believing. And I've heard a lot about healings, etc done by former TWI people since they have left TWI......

I believe it's the Power of God in us who does the healings, etc. I also believe God can heal without a person ministering healing etc. And if one doesn't believe in the power within, then there will be no manifestation of these things.

My experience, when I was 38 I got very sick with cancer. The Dr. said, I had a 20% chance of living. That no treatment would change that. A former TWI ministered healing to me over the phone and I was instantly healed just like that. Went back to the Dr. and She said, (She was a christian) well, I can't write down on the record that a miracle happened, but that is what it is, a miracle. I've not had a problem with it since and it's been 28 years since then. I praise God!!

[Allan]

New Life, MWRAP, you summed it up nicely for ( me at least) ...Just because twi ( small letters intended ) promoted something doesn't mean it was ALL wrong

[Oakspear]

how did we get to sonic screwdrivers ?! wtf ??

Looks like an analogy to me

[Bolshevik]

[MRAP]

I still believe, I still pray and I still SIT but adress my "intent" towards the promises of the Father (the promises He gave us in the Bible), no longer getting "too" focused on a particular.

Not sure I am tracking with your last post Bolshevik, I think the whole matter is a bit more convoluted than that, besides, I don't much care for answers/posts with a quip photo and assigned statement to the photo - nothing personal.

[Allan]

When the impossible comes to pass through believing God's Word, it's called a godly conclusion

[waysider]

Say what you will, the concept is not Biblical in origin, save for a few cherry picked verses here and there.

People want to believe they can cause change through their thoughts. That's the basis of "the law of believing". If it were true, the world would be in a constant state of chaos, with conflicting thoughts cancelling each other out and confounding reality. (eg: I want it to rain, you don't. Who wins?) .....ad infinitum.

Edited August 17, 2015 by waysider

[newlife]

I don't believe I can cause anything to change just because I believe it so. It's The Power of God that can change things.....Either God Himself (Example creation) or the manifestation of HIS power within me. But Me?? Are you kidding??? I'm just a human being who had no spiritual power in my life till I got Born Again and then that changed everything, cause it changed me. Praise Him!!

[waysider]

I don't believe I can cause anything to change just because I believe it so. It's The Power of God that can change things.....Either God Himself (Example creation) or the manifestation of HIS power within me. But Me?? Are you kidding??? I'm just a human being who had no spiritual power in my life till I got Born Again and then that changed everything, cause it changed me. Praise Him!!

I think what you're referencing is what most people call Christian Faith. It's not what VPW was talking about in PFAL. What he was talking about was some magical power that can be conjured up by "saint and sinner alike" through focus and concentration..

[Steve Lortz]

There's a big difference between preaching and teaching. Preaching is drawing the audience's attention to a matter. Teaching is explaining the nuts and bolts of how the thing works. Wierwille often preached truths while at the same time, he taught the exact opposite of what he was preaching. I think there were a lot of times when he did that with "believing." That's part of the reason we found the topic of "believing" so difficult to understand. If we think back on the whole of what Wierwille said about "believing", then we still find it contradictory and confusing.

What a particular person "believes" about "believing" depends on how that person chose to filter the things she or he heard Wierwille say.

In one important sense, believing is trusting that a person will keep a promise she or he has made. Biblical believing, or faith, is trusting that God will keep the promises he has made. There has to be a promise in order for there to be believing.

Matthew 21:22 in the King James Version tell us that whatsoever we shall ask in prayer believing we shall receive.

Wierwille used this verse to teach that God has promised to give us ANYTHING we ask for, as long as we have sufficient "believing."

But that's not what Jesus meant. Jesus said "whatsoever you ask in prayer." In Matthew 6 the Word of God sets conditions on the things we can ask for in prayer. Whatsoever we shall ask for in accordance with Matthew 6, believing that God will bring it to pass, we shall receive. Can we ask for healings? Can we ask for signs, miracles and wonders? Sure, we can! Does that mean we can force God to bring them to pass by our "believing?" No, we can't! When we pray for those things, we pray that God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. If it is God's will for signs, miracles and wonders to come to pass, those things will happen. If it's not God's will at that particular time and place, then bless our hearts, those things won't come to pass at that particular time and place. And that won't mean that we failed to renew our minds, or that we didn't have enough believing!

Love,

Steve

[MRAP]

Thanks Steve Lortz, I for one think I have a handle on this now (read all my posts and you will see); do we ever really ever get a handle on it all?

so, the flip side: what about the concept of being consistently negative all the time and is "Fear" a negative believing. Given all that has been said, I ain't seeing fear being a spiritual thing but a self fullfilling professy based on our "mental". What's the verse: the thing feared comes upon you. Well, was it "came" or "comes", seems that would make all the difference.

Maybe the need for a seperate thread or the need to be referenced to an existing discussion on the topic.

Thanks all, I did not start this thread but sure as dang learned alot from it: I just had to write dang since I want to see how the "system" changes it.

Stop what you are doing and take account if you are smiling, it's a test of yourself.

[Allan]

Oh I don't know Steve, I believe in gravity, not because It's a scientific principle that can be explained to me in 50 differn't ways but rather ( from a practical point of view ) if I jump off a cliff I'm gonna end up at the bottom ! Just as I believe in the believing Jesus was talking about because I and many others have seen it in action, when the situation was within the parameters of a promise in God's Word and the person thanking and praying to Father had NO doubt He would bring it to pass.

[Steve Lortz]

What are you trying to do, Allen? Get me fired up all over again? :) I know that's what my wife has been praying for in her own odd, Asperger's way!

Here for about two-and-a-half decades, I've been perfectly happy to say "There is no power in believing!" As is obvious to the most casual of observers, there IS power! Now you've got me going to the Bible to see where it says the power resides, and it's got me all stirred up. To be brief, I presently think it says that the power is in speaking with confidence by the Spirit of God, but it would take a heck of a lot of painstaking exegetical work to make that stick. (Ugh! I know, eventually, I'm going to have to do that work.)

Here's a verse to chew on in the meantime, "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the POWER may be of God, and not of us." (II Corinthians 4:7).

Thanks again, Allen!

Love,

Steve

[Allan]

Nice Steve ! and I won't get into the 'vibration' of prayer ( it's rather new agey but appears to work too ) but yes indeedy all prayer and thanks should go to God the Father

[outandabout]

Say what you will, the concept is not Biblical in origin, save for a few cherry picked verses here and there.

People want to believe they can cause change through their thoughts. That's the basis of "the law of believing". If it were true, the world would be in a constant state of chaos, with conflicting thoughts cancelling each other out and confounding reality. (eg: I want it to rain, you don't. Who wins?) .....ad infinitum.

Yes!!!

The problem with the law of believing as we were taught it, is that if you can control everything by your "believing" then when bad things happen, it's your own fault because of faulty "believing." Thus all the condemnation that went around. Sick? Your fault. Financial difficulties? Your fault. Accident? Your fault. You die? Your fault!

[skyrider]

The problem with the law of believing as we were taught it, is that if you can control everything by your "believing" then when bad things happen, it's your own fault because of faulty "believing." Thus all the condemnation that went around. Sick? Your fault. Financial difficulties? Your fault. Accident? Your fault. You die? Your fault!

No one in your area wants pfal. Your fault.

If a class runs, and people drop out. Your fault.

Witness, witness, "do the word"....and then, financial difficulties. Your fault.

Meetings, meetings, no time for family and then, family problems. Your fault.

YET....the twice-divorced mogette [rosalie] and divorced special assistant [donna]

go on shopping sprees and get-aways together.....LIFE IS ABUNDANT FOR THEM.

Their *believing* must be the difference.

[Allan]

Newsflash !!!! twi were/are not the only Christian outfit to believe in believing !!! Yes they took it to 'extremes' but I would venture to say it IS Biblical in concept, from Genesis to Revelation. Heck, To get 'born-again' one must what ? 'Apparently' this enables one to receive holy spirit...freedom of will decision to believe AND receive.

[skyrider]

Newsflash !!!! twi were/are not the only Christian outfit to believe in believing !!! Yes they took it to 'extremes' but I would venture to say it IS Biblical in concept, from Genesis to Revelation. Heck, To get 'born-again' one must what ? 'Apparently' this enables one to receive holy spirit...freedom of will decision to believe AND receive.

Of course, *believing* is a biblical concept.

BUT....."the law of believing" is something different. I no longer have my Blue Book,

The Bible Tells Me So......yet, I distinctly remember that chapter where a

camera analogy is utilized to augment "believing." What were those little steps?

1) Aim the camera and affix the subject of interest.

2) Adjust the focus (get clear and concerned....ie mentally).

3) Allow enough light exposure to elapse (scripture)

4) At right time, snap picture

Someone who still has the book can correct this vague description.

So, what was the beauty of this little chapter?

You can HAVE whatever you focus on mentally.

You want Red Drapes?

Fine.

[WordWolf]

"The Way: Living in Love."

pg-150

"There were two men in Van Wert," he begins slowly. Now, they got together every

morning at 5am and believed together for an hour. Every morning. I don't know what they called

it. But they would set their minds on an agreed project. They never spoke; just got together

every morning and both concentrated on whatever it was, until it came to pass."

pg-151

"Well, they just got together and put their minds on it every single morning for a

couple of weeks, and lo and behold, one day suddenly some guy who wanted to sell his

distillery just called them up, asked if they wanted to buy it. They'd never heard of the

guy with the distillery before. He found them.

Yep, they made millions, gambled, won. One man set up a foundation for children from

broken homes, also built the YMCA, YWCA and a hospital. It was something."

"I used to watch how they operated. I was a minister there in Van Wert. I had my church,

my congregation. But I studied them. That was before God showed me the law of believing in all

its accuracy. You see, here were the two meanest guys you could ever want to meet.

Nobody liked them because they were so successful and no one else could hold a candle to

them. "

pg-152.

"I used to look at their successes-one after another-and then I'd look at those

defeated Christians all around me. And I was just amazed. I just couldn't understand it,

until I understood from the Word of God the law of believing, the greatest law in the world

today. Then I could see just what was happening.

It says in Mark that whosoever-now what does whosoever mean? Whosoever means whosoever,

not just Christians, not just Catholics, not just Way believers, but 'Whosoever shall say

unto this mountain, Be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his

heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall

have whatsoever he saith.' There it is, spelled out, the greatest law there is. "

For those not completely clear on this,

these men never existed, except in vpw's story.

They had NO NAMES. They supposedly did all these things that leave paper trails,

yet vpw never ONCE gives them as a SPECIFIC example of anything.

"This hospital here at this location owes its existence to Mr Majikthise and Mr Vroomfondel,

and everyone who owes their lives to treatment there owes these 2 men.

All because Believing is a Law."

Never said that, not once.

But he made them up this FABLE to illustrate "in reality" what he CLAIMED could be

done IN REALITY. However, it only happened in this FABLE, which he needed to

MAKE UP as an example.

Hands up, any of you who saw vpw use the supposed "LAW" of Believing to win a fortune

at the racetrack (we know he went there), a casino, a statewide lottery, etc.

Exactly. We have a list of zero twi'ers that used that supposed "LAW" to make

fast cash despite it being "available" to "believe for it" all the time.

[Allan]

Interesting you bring up the camera/mental image thing Wordwolf...my wife ( Selina ) when we were believing for finances to get ourselves and 5 kids to Indiana Campus from New Zealand with not a lot of spare change hanging around, we would s.i.t. and she had a mental image of us arriving there and sitting around a brick wishing well at the front of campus ( neither of us had ever seen the campus before ) of course when we arrived there ( through a set of small miracles )what was sitting smack out the front ?!....go figure

[waysider]

We all "believed" he had a doctorate. How did that work out?

[WordWolf]

Interesting you bring up the camera/mental image thing Wordwolf

[A) When you mean me, it's "WordWolf" with both "w"s capitalized.

B) When you mean skyrider, it's properly with no caps, although skyrider seems cool about it either way.

C) Do not spell skyrider as "W-o-r-d-w-o-l-f", that's not cool at all.

skyrider brought up vpw's extra-Biblical "camera" analogy/explanation. ]

...my wife ( Selina ) when we were believing for finances to get ourselves and 5 kids to Indiana Campus from New Zealand with not a lot of spare change hanging around, we would s.i.t. and she had a mental image of us arriving there and sitting around a brick wishing well at the front of campus ( neither of us had ever seen the campus before ) of course when we arrived there ( through a set of small miracles )what was sitting smack out the front ?!....go figure

[Taking as a given that everything you said was 100% true,

does this mean Selina believed the brick wishing well into existence,

or that God Almighty showed her revelation at His discretion?]

[waysider]

Shouldn't it have been a believing well? (We weren't supposed to wish for things in The Way.)

Edited August 19, 2015 by waysider