I don't really know too much about the censorship particulars here. I think the filters may have been included in the original package when the site debuted. You have to be creative to get around them. Another censorship issue is the use of names. It's OK to use the names of the board of directors, board of trustees and that sort of thing. Beyond that, it can get "iffy" due to legal considerations. Plus, you probably wouldn't want a prospective employer to know you were part of a traveling freak show, should a google search lead them here. Again, there are ways to name s0me*ne without actually naming them.
Regarding the tapes: I'm sure those tapes (which were on-loan from their legal owner, TWI) must have been destroyed by unfavorable storage condition long ago. Such a pity.
My outrage is this WordWolf: there was so much opportunity for the word to move and when we did move it, the hq took hold on all that we (WOW's and after) put into getting folks into the word; we had nothing left to work with - people. HQ told us how to deal with new folks (under sheperding), they did not know these people and what kept them - all HQ wanted was their $$. We lost em, the system drove them away, either through WOW recruetment, Corp recruitment or going to work at HQ (free labor) and all in the name or guise of doing God's service.
You see, that's what bites me, "USEING" God's word for personal gain: money, sex and power; I think that covers the three bases, what's home plate?
Yes, I have dealt with my personal pain brought on by twi from years past but what I now see (thanks to GSC) is how much pain I inflicted on others that I brought to the "word". I did no one any favors, at least in this life, born again, yes, kick some DS's a..s..s's, yes. These are not the days to keep score. Bringing someone to the Lord and salvation also requires commitment to that person (real undersheperding). Not sure how I am up to that at this point in life - hey out there, give me some feedback and some ideas from your personal's on this topic.
"...hey out there, give me some feedback and some ideas from your personal's on this topic."
In essence, it was set up like an MLM scheme. We were so busy selling the abundant life (ie:PFAL class), we didn't have time to live it. Like the people with a certain well known soap company that are so busy selling dealerships, they don't have time to sell the soap.
Waysider, you are as much about the voice of reason (via humor) on this site as Raf's comments are in seriousness of the topics, you are a palate cleanser in many a discourse; my thanks. As for WordWolf, his shortness (at few times) speeks volumes more than when he gets verbose, his words are always so appropriate, long or short.
Now, that sucky crap aside, I understand a bit more in depth of what this site has allowed: it's therapy - on alot of levels.
I am so remiss about having brought anyone to twi - speaking the word to them I am not and especially not when it got someone "saved". It must be ego in part but to smash a ds, that's fantastic; what did Jesus say about that: desire not that the ds's are subject to you but rather that >>>>>>> YES! So much of our instruction in twi was all about ego and ego within twi, what a shame, what a waste of our energy in our youth. Think about that my sisters and brothers; for that, I will not forgive twi. TWI stole our youthfull energy for their purpose - you bastards.
Waysider, I was asking for help in how to take care of someone you now bring into the word. I don't think I can deal with a bum living in my garage - yes, I be a jerk.
To bring someone into the word now is like having a kid - I am old, I don't need anymore kids and I have a life (oh, Jesus has alot to say about that - he sees my every key stroke).
That's what I am talking about. How do older established folks deal with this dilema.
Yeh, could go work down at the soup kitchen or shelter speaking the word but that's lame since I then take no responsibility for the person that accepts Christ and then I just walk away. Hell, I give alot to the Salvation Army, I might join their ranks or at least work with them for the season (I can do the drum or tamboreene); kidding aside, that's an idea.
You know, in the old days, we did not like witnessing but now, there is no fear except for what happens afterward.
Yeh, right, go door to door in the high rent districts.
Waysider, I was asking for help in how to take care of someone you now bring into the word. I don't think I can deal with a bum living in my garage - yes, I be a jerk.
To bring someone into the word now is like having a kid - I am old, I don't need anymore kids and I have a life (oh, Jesus has alot to say about that - he sees my every key stroke).
That's what I am talking about. How do older established folks deal with this dilema.
Yeh, could go work down at the soup kitchen or shelter speaking the word but that's lame since I then take no responsibility for the person that accepts Christ and then I just walk away. Hell, I give alot to the Salvation Army, I might join their ranks or at least work with them for the season (I can do the drum or tamboreene); kidding aside, that's an idea.
You know, in the old days, we did not like witnessing but now, there is no fear except for what happens afterward.
Yeh, right, go door to door in the high rent districts.
Ironically, this very subject is what brought me here to GSC. I used to lend out various PFAL materials to people I witnessed to. More often than not, they were not returned. I expected that. I never told people about twig fellowships. That ship had sailed for me. I had stockpiled several PFAL books but the last one went AWOL so I got online to seek out a replacement. Several clicks later, I somehow stumbled into GreaseSpot Cafe and was astonished by what I began to read..... I no long need that PFAL book, by the way.
My question is.....what did the military techniques have anything to do with spiritual principles. I remember hearing about the gun training at Emporia and thinking....what? Gun Training, kind of scared me that would be taught in a bible based group.....and then someone said well it's Gun Safety training. But later I had heard it was about how to be ready in case of attack. Just some strange training......LEAD........Survival training.....At Rome City......How to kill chickens.......How to string chairs, How to Teach....tell them what you are going to teach, teach it and then tell them what you taught......How to pack your suitcase......And I'm sure that some of this stuff was good to know....but I think it all got carried away and ridiculous. Especially all these exercises at Emporia to make people be unified and together......How did this have anything to do with biblical studies??
My outrage is this WordWolf: there was so much opportunity for the word to move and when we did move it, the hq took hold on all that we (WOW's and after) put into getting folks into the word; we had nothing left to work with - people. HQ told us how to deal with new folks (under sheperding), they did not know these people and what kept them - all HQ wanted was their $$. We lost em, the system drove them away, either through WOW recruetment, Corp recruitment or going to work at HQ (free labor) and all in the name or guise of doing God's service.
You see, that's what bites me, "USEING" God's word for personal gain: money, sex and power; I think that covers the three bases, what's home plate?
Yes, I have dealt with my personal pain brought on by twi from years past but what I now see (thanks to GSC) is how much pain I inflicted on others that I brought to the "word". I did no one any favors, at least in this life, born again, yes, kick some DS's a..s..s's, yes. These are not the days to keep score. Bringing someone to the Lord and salvation also requires commitment to that person (real undersheperding). Not sure how I am up to that at this point in life - hey out there, give me some feedback and some ideas from your personal's on this topic.
EXACTLY.
These past 15 years, in Waydale and now Greasespot Cafe, I've posted the same thing! What really bites is to see how wierwille, as the "man of God" (cough, cough) in twi was a narcissist, opportunist and sexual predator. And, no....we didn't do anyone any favors by encouraging them to join us in the swamp.
To step back, and connect the dots.....and SEE WHY twi has miserably failed adds justification to all the red flags that I was seeing since 1977. Yet, I kept plugging along trying to become spiritual enough to quell my doubts and concerns to these questions that kept swirling in the back of my mind. And, to come to Greasespot.....and see how so many others have been ensnared in the same dilemma adds gratification to help others with answers. Together, we are exposing the evil in twi and the false ministry of victor paul wierwille.
To speak truth in the face of evil is a good thing.
And, the thanks we've received by many is enough to warm my heart.
When I was a WOW, our BL put a little table out on the lawn in front of our apartment. Everyone gathered around in a circle, then she would assign some hapless soul to climb up on the table blindfolded. The group circled the table like sharks around a rowboat and then the one standing on the table was to throw him/herself without warning backward off the table. The purpose of this exercise was to teach us to trust one another. I got to have the joy of being blindfolded and standing on the table, thinking "I don't trust these suckers one damn bit."
Sure as God made little green apples, I pretty much hit the ground when I fell backward.
I think it was someone else's idea other than the BL, but she fell for it (no pun intended).
MRAP - I was in the Navy from 1970 to 1976. I was aboard a submarine, the USS POGY, from 1972 to 1976. I never even heard of TWI until 1979. When you related the incident of your branch leader taking you to the barbershop, I couldn't help but think of the chief of the boat when we would put back into port after a long run. When we were at sea, we could grow our hair however we wanted, as long as it didn't interfere with the seal of gas masks... but when we came back to port, we had to get our hair cut right away, and it was the COB's job to see that we did. I kept my hair and beard long for years after I got out of the Navy, and didn't shave my beard until I was in residence in the Corps in 1985. I grew it back sometime after leaving TWI. I find your posts on this thread very insightful for understanding your experience with TWI! We aboard the POGY had our lives impacted by the war in Israel in 1973, and it certainly wasn't just about preventing a PFAL class from running!
newlife - You asked "My question is.....what did the military techniques have anything to do with spiritual principles." Absolutely nothing at all. In fact, they didn't really have anything to do with genuine principles of military leadership, either! When I was in the Navy, we had a book called "Petty Officer Three and Two" that was the study guide for going up in rank. "PO 3&2" was the foundational book on carrying out the responsibilities of a non-commissioned officer, and it had a chapter on military leadership. "PO 3&2" defined the primary qualities necessary for good military leadership as these three, in this order of priority: good moral conduct, leadership by example and administrative ability. If you are dishonest with your followers, they will be dishonest with you. You cannot tell people to do things that you are not willing to do yourself, and being able to keep track of paperwork is only third. As for throwing yourself off a table to build trust... the branch leader should have been the FIRST to throw himself/herself off, to DEMONSTRATE trust to his/her followers! There is an unwritten rule among military leaders that you should never issue an order if you know your followers will refuse to execute it. Issuing such an order does nothing but generate mutiny and destroy confidence in the chain of command.
MRAP - You wrote, "To bring someone into the word now is like having a kid - I am old, I don't need anymore kids and I have a life (oh, Jesus has alot to say about that - he sees my every key stroke). That's what I am talking about. How do older established folks deal with this dilema." Older, established folks have dealt with this dilemma for the past 2000 years or so by belonging to established congregations! People say it takes a village to raise a kid. It really does take a congregation larger than a half-dozen twenty-somethings to bring a person up in the Word!
"PO 3&2" defined the primary qualities necessary for good military leadership as these three, in this order of priority: good moral conduct, leadership by example and administrative ability. If you are dishonest with your followers, they will be dishonest with you. You cannot tell people to do things that you are not willing to do yourself, and being able to keep track of paperwork is only third.
That explains a lot right there. vpw ws deficient in ALL THREE.
Good moral conduct and honesty? Do I really need to rehash the failings of
that alcoholic, chain-smoking, plagiarising, raping pervert?
(Or is that a good summary?)
Leadership by example? The man had to know how to lead first.
He knew how to bark orders and expect people to carry them out,
and to read his mind when he failed to explain things.
That's testimony more to his days as a bully than as any kind
of "leader." He never "led by example" except to want people to
imitate him-like when he gave lcm a motorcycle. As for telling
people to do things he wouldn't do, that was his standard policy.
lcm recounted an example-where lcm didn't want to go out onstage in rain.
vpw PUSHED him out, saying if the people get wet, he does, too.
When I read that, my first response was that I would have stepped out
into the rain and introduced lcm, and invited him to join me on the stage.
vpw was really into telling others to do it all.
As for administrative ability, that was severely lacking, also.
vpw was notoriously cheap for the organization. (When others were expected
to cover expenses, he asked for expensive stuff, and he bought lots of
alcohol and cigarettes for himself, but the organization's stuff was always
done as cheaply as possible.) This made a certain sense when they were first
setting up and needed things like chairs for empty rooms and so on, but there
was no sensible investment on INFRASTRUCTURE. Where it was sensible to get
durable things for the group, vpw got the cheapest and tasked others to maintain
it rather than ever just get new.
And, when he did "greenlight" expenses, he did it in ways that most sensible people
would have avoided. There are houses on-grounds that were made with his favorite
woods- that were completely unsuitable for Ohio weather and the wood rotted rather
quickly, resulting in lots of maintenance hours and expenses wasted. But he didn't
care how many hours of slave labor was lost. And as sensible as it was to have a
facility on-grounds for seating people for teachings and presentations, that GARISH
VEGAS SHOWCASE was a waste of funds.
So, vpw would have been a poor leader in the military no matter what his delusions were.
I also remember a friend studying for Officers' Candidacy School. He mentioned his
thinking that a failure of the group he led would mean a failure in himself as the
group leader, since his responsibility was to make sure they did not fail, and to
make sure they all performed well, responsibility always ended with him.
vpw always said the opposite- whenever something bothered him, he yelled at others
and called them failures and so on.
As for throwing yourself off a table to build trust... the branch leader should have been the FIRST to throw himself/herself off, to DEMONSTRATE trust to his/her followers! There is an unwritten rule among military leaders that you should never issue an order if you know your followers will refuse to execute it. Issuing such an order does nothing but generate mutiny and destroy confidence in the chain of command.
Actually,
I used that type of exercise as an illustration of responsibility and trust.
I designated someone I trusted to catch me, explained, blindfolded myself to
prevent myself from interfering, and a few seconds later, fell back
(and was caught safely, thanks, Raf!). I was making a point about the trusting
one having the EASY part, where it was easy for me to fall when I trusted the
other person, and so on. I was NOT making a point about responsibility.
I wouldn't have used that another way, certainly without demonstrating it myself
first, and I wouldn't have done it with people moving and making it easy to
My 2 cents. I was overseas (USAF) on an island where the primary military mission was logistical for supporting European US military operations, at the time of the Israeli airlift. My involvement was nothing out of my ordinary job as a telecom systems tech.
Looking back, for me, on wierwille wanting a military-like organization was solely and exclusively about the fact that he wanted adulation and obedience. Nothing more, nothing less. All WC "training" was about obedience, not about spiritual growth. Ooops, excuse me, "spiritual growth" was the label they put on obedience training.
In the 1990s, well after leaving twi, I learned about servant-leadership and learning organizations. Twi was about neither of those things.
My question is.....what did the military techniques have anything to do with spiritual principles. I remember hearing about the gun training at Emporia and thinking....what? Gun Training, kind of scared me that would be taught in a bible based group.....and then someone said well it's Gun Safety training. But later I had heard it was about how to be ready in case of attack. Just some strange training......LEAD........Survival training.....At Rome City......How to kill chickens.......How to string chairs, How to Teach....tell them what you are going to teach, teach it and then tell them what you taught......How to pack your suitcase......And I'm sure that some of this stuff was good to know....but I think it all got carried away and ridiculous. Especially all these exercises at Emporia to make people be unified and together......How did this have anything to do with biblical studies??
Thanks again for your posts.....
BTW, unless there was some clandestine training going on that I didn't know about, the "gun training" we did at Emporia was anything but military training. You went to somebody's farm where they had hay bales lined up. An instructor would hand you a shotgun. In my case it was a 12-gauge. You pointed the barrel in the direction of the hay bale and pulled the trigger. You got to do that 3 times, then you went back to the campus. Hardly military training. Before that you spent several hours in the classroom listening to someone drone on about gun safety. Stuff like, if you're walking through a pasture and you come to a fence, don't throw your over your gun because it might discharge. Or, if you're walking next to another hunter, don't walk with your gun carelessly aimed at him. Walk with the barrel down and pay attention. I'm not defending it and I have no idea what it had to do with leadership training, but I don't want to insult people that were actually in the military with saying the Corps received that type of training. If we were attacked, we were supposed to run, actually. Oh yeah, we were supposed have supplies at the ready and our car gas tanks no lower than half.
I've concluded that that was a scare tactic to keep engender and "us vs. them" mindset.
Karl Kahler in his book, The Cult that snapped, referred to some type of military exercises that took place, but those were supposedly with people that were former military. I never saw any of that but then again it would have been kept from me if that did in fact happen.
I don't know if it was a "team-building" exercise......but at Emporia, in early February, each Twig was instructed to work together and help each other move everyone's stuff to another dorm room. Even with blizzard conditions coming our way, the task did NOT alter or adjust. So, on the big *move day*......there we were, trudging thru six inches of snow and near-blizzard conditions as we carried boxes, lamps, books, etc. to each new room assignment.
We were NOT done until everyone in our twig was completely moved into their new room.
.....to ADD more clarity for those unfamiliar with the Emporia Campus
There were four separate buildings/dorms for the inresidence corps.....Uncle Harry Hall, Ermal Owens Hall, Kipp Hall and Emporia(?) Hall. Two of the converted "dormitories" were on the west side of the campus and the other two [about two football fields away -- 200 yards] were on the southeast corner.
So, as we trudged thru the snow.....carrying boxes, hanging clothes, lamps, etc...now, picture about 480 people doing this [about 310 in the 9th corps and 190 7th corps]. Tromping into the hallways and stairwells.....tracking in wet snow at every doorway, and then dorm stewards had to have cleaning crews organized to clean up the mess soon afterwards.
What a bunch of hooey, stupid "training" protocol.....or whatever. And, then add the caste system of corps branch coordinators supervising the corps twig coordinators who were barking orders to each corps person on what to carry and when to go. Looking back.....it reminds me of how teachers lead a kindergarten class from the school bus, across the street to visit the zoo. Make sure everyone is monitored to the nth degree.
Waysider, I was asking for help in how to take care of someone you now bring into the word. I don't think I can deal with a bum living in my garage - yes, I be a jerk.
To bring someone into the word now is like having a kid - I am old, I don't need anymore kids and I have a life (oh, Jesus has alot to say about that - he sees my every key stroke).
That's what I am talking about. How do older established folks deal with this dilema.
Yeh, could go work down at the soup kitchen or shelter speaking the word but that's lame since I then take no responsibility for the person that accepts Christ and then I just walk away. Hell, I give alot to the Salvation Army, I might join their ranks or at least work with them for the season (I can do the drum or tamboreene); kidding aside, that's an idea.
You know, in the old days, we did not like witnessing but now, there is no fear except for what happens afterward.
Yeh, right, go door to door in the high rent districts.
MRAP, it is not about YOU "taking care of someone" or even "bringing into the word." YOU are only one individual. It's not (in TWI style) just your responsibility to ensure someone "gets into the Word" and even less that they "accept" the Word (that's their individual responsibility). For a start, you are not the only person in your victim's (?) life. (They were victims when we tried to get them to take the class!) It's egotistical to think that it's all down to YOU. Don't you think Jesus has other people helping the person he wants to "bring into the Word"? Other people that the intended lives with, works with, has as relatives or neighbors, fellow club members, drinking mates... We are fellow laborers with him (Jesus) and not take-over merchants that want the glory all for ourselves.
Be thankful if your example or your words does help win someone. But it's highly likely that many others will have played a significant part too in sowing the seed; maybe you were just the last to add a little water or got the privilege to "harvest" - but it's not your harvest, you are still only one of many laborers.
There are many ways to witness. Your lifestyle is key. Help at a food bank, with the Salvation Army, in a charity shop, doing something useful in your neighborhood. Whatever. Stand up alongside people who are oppressed. Confront the workplace bully. Don't get drunk but help those who are drunk. DO something, don't knock on doors or simply tell people. Let your life and your actions be the witness. That's the way you will "bring people to the Word." And you will show them right living at the same time.
It's NOT lame to help other people. You don't know what simply being kind to someone in a soup kitchen might mean to them.
Be prepared, yourself, to work alongside other Christians. You might just shock yourself with what you learn from them. Indeed, you might find yourself being "brought to the Word." The real Word. The Living Word.
It's NOT lame to help other people. You don't know what simply being kind to someone in a soup kitchen might mean to them.
Be prepared, yourself, to work alongside other Christians. You might just shock yourself with what you learn from them. Indeed, you might find yourself being "brought to the Word." The real Word. The Living Word.
Incredibly poignant words. Thanks, Twinky, for writing them.
There's this great poem by Edgar A. Guest that starts out:
"I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day".
I work as a product demonstrator in a large membership warehouse store. People from all over the world live in the city where I work and come there to shop, eat free samples, or just hang out for a while. I am still a Christian but have been dissociated from TWI for many years now. I give them samples, love, smile at their babies, speak gently, give them more samples, and try to brighten their day. I've had babies throw up in front of me; I've comforted widows, prayed with those in stress, and just generally tried to BE instead of SAY or DO.
Many of the members are not Christian, but are Hindus or Muslims. I try to be sure I know what ingredients they would wish to avoid and warn them if necessary.
Is this going to get some of them saved? I dunno. I'm just trying to scatter some seeds of Christ's love.
WWJD is not a bad question to ask yourself now and then, in my opinion.
I had never heard or read the entire poem. But, I heard VP say part of it. I like it.....so very true isn't it?? I think of by their fruit you shall know them.......Guess I forgot about that when I was in TWI....
Recommended Posts
WordWolf
In "About The Way", a moderate amount of ranting is expected periodically.
There's plenty that deserves some ranting (and more than a little outrage.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I don't really know too much about the censorship particulars here. I think the filters may have been included in the original package when the site debuted. You have to be creative to get around them. Another censorship issue is the use of names. It's OK to use the names of the board of directors, board of trustees and that sort of thing. Beyond that, it can get "iffy" due to legal considerations. Plus, you probably wouldn't want a prospective employer to know you were part of a traveling freak show, should a google search lead them here. Again, there are ways to name s0me*ne without actually naming them.
Regarding the tapes: I'm sure those tapes (which were on-loan from their legal owner, TWI) must have been destroyed by unfavorable storage condition long ago. Such a pity.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
My outrage is this WordWolf: there was so much opportunity for the word to move and when we did move it, the hq took hold on all that we (WOW's and after) put into getting folks into the word; we had nothing left to work with - people. HQ told us how to deal with new folks (under sheperding), they did not know these people and what kept them - all HQ wanted was their $$. We lost em, the system drove them away, either through WOW recruetment, Corp recruitment or going to work at HQ (free labor) and all in the name or guise of doing God's service.
You see, that's what bites me, "USEING" God's word for personal gain: money, sex and power; I think that covers the three bases, what's home plate?
Yes, I have dealt with my personal pain brought on by twi from years past but what I now see (thanks to GSC) is how much pain I inflicted on others that I brought to the "word". I did no one any favors, at least in this life, born again, yes, kick some DS's a..s..s's, yes. These are not the days to keep score. Bringing someone to the Lord and salvation also requires commitment to that person (real undersheperding). Not sure how I am up to that at this point in life - hey out there, give me some feedback and some ideas from your personal's on this topic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"...hey out there, give me some feedback and some ideas from your personal's on this topic."
In essence, it was set up like an MLM scheme. We were so busy selling the abundant life (ie:PFAL class), we didn't have time to live it. Like the people with a certain well known soap company that are so busy selling dealerships, they don't have time to sell the soap.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
Waysider, you are as much about the voice of reason (via humor) on this site as Raf's comments are in seriousness of the topics, you are a palate cleanser in many a discourse; my thanks. As for WordWolf, his shortness (at few times) speeks volumes more than when he gets verbose, his words are always so appropriate, long or short.
Now, that sucky crap aside, I understand a bit more in depth of what this site has allowed: it's therapy - on alot of levels.
I am so remiss about having brought anyone to twi - speaking the word to them I am not and especially not when it got someone "saved". It must be ego in part but to smash a ds, that's fantastic; what did Jesus say about that: desire not that the ds's are subject to you but rather that >>>>>>> YES! So much of our instruction in twi was all about ego and ego within twi, what a shame, what a waste of our energy in our youth. Think about that my sisters and brothers; for that, I will not forgive twi. TWI stole our youthfull energy for their purpose - you bastards.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
Waysider, I was asking for help in how to take care of someone you now bring into the word. I don't think I can deal with a bum living in my garage - yes, I be a jerk.
To bring someone into the word now is like having a kid - I am old, I don't need anymore kids and I have a life (oh, Jesus has alot to say about that - he sees my every key stroke).
That's what I am talking about. How do older established folks deal with this dilema.
Yeh, could go work down at the soup kitchen or shelter speaking the word but that's lame since I then take no responsibility for the person that accepts Christ and then I just walk away. Hell, I give alot to the Salvation Army, I might join their ranks or at least work with them for the season (I can do the drum or tamboreene); kidding aside, that's an idea.
You know, in the old days, we did not like witnessing but now, there is no fear except for what happens afterward.
Yeh, right, go door to door in the high rent districts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Ironically, this very subject is what brought me here to GSC. I used to lend out various PFAL materials to people I witnessed to. More often than not, they were not returned. I expected that. I never told people about twig fellowships. That ship had sailed for me. I had stockpiled several PFAL books but the last one went AWOL so I got online to seek out a replacement. Several clicks later, I somehow stumbled into GreaseSpot Cafe and was astonished by what I began to read..... I no long need that PFAL book, by the way.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
newlife
Interesting Posts.......
My question is.....what did the military techniques have anything to do with spiritual principles. I remember hearing about the gun training at Emporia and thinking....what? Gun Training, kind of scared me that would be taught in a bible based group.....and then someone said well it's Gun Safety training. But later I had heard it was about how to be ready in case of attack. Just some strange training......LEAD........Survival training.....At Rome City......How to kill chickens.......How to string chairs, How to Teach....tell them what you are going to teach, teach it and then tell them what you taught......How to pack your suitcase......And I'm sure that some of this stuff was good to know....but I think it all got carried away and ridiculous. Especially all these exercises at Emporia to make people be unified and together......How did this have anything to do with biblical studies??
Thanks again for your posts.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
EXACTLY.
These past 15 years, in Waydale and now Greasespot Cafe, I've posted the same thing! What really bites is to see how wierwille, as the "man of God" (cough, cough) in twi was a narcissist, opportunist and sexual predator. And, no....we didn't do anyone any favors by encouraging them to join us in the swamp.
To step back, and connect the dots.....and SEE WHY twi has miserably failed adds justification to all the red flags that I was seeing since 1977. Yet, I kept plugging along trying to become spiritual enough to quell my doubts and concerns to these questions that kept swirling in the back of my mind. And, to come to Greasespot.....and see how so many others have been ensnared in the same dilemma adds gratification to help others with answers. Together, we are exposing the evil in twi and the false ministry of victor paul wierwille.
To speak truth in the face of evil is a good thing.
And, the thanks we've received by many is enough to warm my heart.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
When I was a WOW, our BL put a little table out on the lawn in front of our apartment. Everyone gathered around in a circle, then she would assign some hapless soul to climb up on the table blindfolded. The group circled the table like sharks around a rowboat and then the one standing on the table was to throw him/herself without warning backward off the table. The purpose of this exercise was to teach us to trust one another. I got to have the joy of being blindfolded and standing on the table, thinking "I don't trust these suckers one damn bit."
Sure as God made little green apples, I pretty much hit the ground when I fell backward.
I think it was someone else's idea other than the BL, but she fell for it (no pun intended).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
MRAP - I was in the Navy from 1970 to 1976. I was aboard a submarine, the USS POGY, from 1972 to 1976. I never even heard of TWI until 1979. When you related the incident of your branch leader taking you to the barbershop, I couldn't help but think of the chief of the boat when we would put back into port after a long run. When we were at sea, we could grow our hair however we wanted, as long as it didn't interfere with the seal of gas masks... but when we came back to port, we had to get our hair cut right away, and it was the COB's job to see that we did. I kept my hair and beard long for years after I got out of the Navy, and didn't shave my beard until I was in residence in the Corps in 1985. I grew it back sometime after leaving TWI. I find your posts on this thread very insightful for understanding your experience with TWI! We aboard the POGY had our lives impacted by the war in Israel in 1973, and it certainly wasn't just about preventing a PFAL class from running!
newlife - You asked "My question is.....what did the military techniques have anything to do with spiritual principles." Absolutely nothing at all. In fact, they didn't really have anything to do with genuine principles of military leadership, either! When I was in the Navy, we had a book called "Petty Officer Three and Two" that was the study guide for going up in rank. "PO 3&2" was the foundational book on carrying out the responsibilities of a non-commissioned officer, and it had a chapter on military leadership. "PO 3&2" defined the primary qualities necessary for good military leadership as these three, in this order of priority: good moral conduct, leadership by example and administrative ability. If you are dishonest with your followers, they will be dishonest with you. You cannot tell people to do things that you are not willing to do yourself, and being able to keep track of paperwork is only third. As for throwing yourself off a table to build trust... the branch leader should have been the FIRST to throw himself/herself off, to DEMONSTRATE trust to his/her followers! There is an unwritten rule among military leaders that you should never issue an order if you know your followers will refuse to execute it. Issuing such an order does nothing but generate mutiny and destroy confidence in the chain of command.
MRAP - You wrote, "To bring someone into the word now is like having a kid - I am old, I don't need anymore kids and I have a life (oh, Jesus has alot to say about that - he sees my every key stroke). That's what I am talking about. How do older established folks deal with this dilema." Older, established folks have dealt with this dilemma for the past 2000 years or so by belonging to established congregations! People say it takes a village to raise a kid. It really does take a congregation larger than a half-dozen twenty-somethings to bring a person up in the Word!
I love you ALL!
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Pride is home plate, MRAP, overweening pride!
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
That explains a lot right there. vpw ws deficient in ALL THREE.
Good moral conduct and honesty? Do I really need to rehash the failings of
that alcoholic, chain-smoking, plagiarising, raping pervert?
(Or is that a good summary?)
Leadership by example? The man had to know how to lead first.
He knew how to bark orders and expect people to carry them out,
and to read his mind when he failed to explain things.
That's testimony more to his days as a bully than as any kind
of "leader." He never "led by example" except to want people to
imitate him-like when he gave lcm a motorcycle. As for telling
people to do things he wouldn't do, that was his standard policy.
lcm recounted an example-where lcm didn't want to go out onstage in rain.
vpw PUSHED him out, saying if the people get wet, he does, too.
When I read that, my first response was that I would have stepped out
into the rain and introduced lcm, and invited him to join me on the stage.
vpw was really into telling others to do it all.
As for administrative ability, that was severely lacking, also.
vpw was notoriously cheap for the organization. (When others were expected
to cover expenses, he asked for expensive stuff, and he bought lots of
alcohol and cigarettes for himself, but the organization's stuff was always
done as cheaply as possible.) This made a certain sense when they were first
setting up and needed things like chairs for empty rooms and so on, but there
was no sensible investment on INFRASTRUCTURE. Where it was sensible to get
durable things for the group, vpw got the cheapest and tasked others to maintain
it rather than ever just get new.
And, when he did "greenlight" expenses, he did it in ways that most sensible people
would have avoided. There are houses on-grounds that were made with his favorite
woods- that were completely unsuitable for Ohio weather and the wood rotted rather
quickly, resulting in lots of maintenance hours and expenses wasted. But he didn't
care how many hours of slave labor was lost. And as sensible as it was to have a
facility on-grounds for seating people for teachings and presentations, that GARISH
VEGAS SHOWCASE was a waste of funds.
So, vpw would have been a poor leader in the military no matter what his delusions were.
I also remember a friend studying for Officers' Candidacy School. He mentioned his
thinking that a failure of the group he led would mean a failure in himself as the
group leader, since his responsibility was to make sure they did not fail, and to
make sure they all performed well, responsibility always ended with him.
vpw always said the opposite- whenever something bothered him, he yelled at others
and called them failures and so on.
Actually,
I used that type of exercise as an illustration of responsibility and trust.
I designated someone I trusted to catch me, explained, blindfolded myself to
prevent myself from interfering, and a few seconds later, fell back
(and was caught safely, thanks, Raf!). I was making a point about the trusting
one having the EASY part, where it was easy for me to fall when I trusted the
other person, and so on. I was NOT making a point about responsibility.
I wouldn't have used that another way, certainly without demonstrating it myself
first, and I wouldn't have done it with people moving and making it easy to
miss catching the person.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
Well, I don't recall my BL doing it at all. She was WC and above all of us nincompoops.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
My 2 cents. I was overseas (USAF) on an island where the primary military mission was logistical for supporting European US military operations, at the time of the Israeli airlift. My involvement was nothing out of my ordinary job as a telecom systems tech.
Looking back, for me, on wierwille wanting a military-like organization was solely and exclusively about the fact that he wanted adulation and obedience. Nothing more, nothing less. All WC "training" was about obedience, not about spiritual growth. Ooops, excuse me, "spiritual growth" was the label they put on obedience training.
In the 1990s, well after leaving twi, I learned about servant-leadership and learning organizations. Twi was about neither of those things.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Spiritual growth: What's that supposed to mean, anyways? (I mean in a Biblical context.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
BTW, unless there was some clandestine training going on that I didn't know about, the "gun training" we did at Emporia was anything but military training. You went to somebody's farm where they had hay bales lined up. An instructor would hand you a shotgun. In my case it was a 12-gauge. You pointed the barrel in the direction of the hay bale and pulled the trigger. You got to do that 3 times, then you went back to the campus. Hardly military training. Before that you spent several hours in the classroom listening to someone drone on about gun safety. Stuff like, if you're walking through a pasture and you come to a fence, don't throw your over your gun because it might discharge. Or, if you're walking next to another hunter, don't walk with your gun carelessly aimed at him. Walk with the barrel down and pay attention. I'm not defending it and I have no idea what it had to do with leadership training, but I don't want to insult people that were actually in the military with saying the Corps received that type of training. If we were attacked, we were supposed to run, actually. Oh yeah, we were supposed have supplies at the ready and our car gas tanks no lower than half.
I've concluded that that was a scare tactic to keep engender and "us vs. them" mindset.
Karl Kahler in his book, The Cult that snapped, referred to some type of military exercises that took place, but those were supposedly with people that were former military. I never saw any of that but then again it would have been kept from me if that did in fact happen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
.....to ADD more clarity for those unfamiliar with the Emporia Campus
There were four separate buildings/dorms for the inresidence corps.....Uncle Harry Hall, Ermal Owens Hall, Kipp Hall and Emporia(?) Hall. Two of the converted "dormitories" were on the west side of the campus and the other two [about two football fields away -- 200 yards] were on the southeast corner.
So, as we trudged thru the snow.....carrying boxes, hanging clothes, lamps, etc...now, picture about 480 people doing this [about 310 in the 9th corps and 190 7th corps]. Tromping into the hallways and stairwells.....tracking in wet snow at every doorway, and then dorm stewards had to have cleaning crews organized to clean up the mess soon afterwards.
What a bunch of hooey, stupid "training" protocol.....or whatever. And, then add the caste system of corps branch coordinators supervising the corps twig coordinators who were barking orders to each corps person on what to carry and when to go. Looking back.....it reminds me of how teachers lead a kindergarten class from the school bus, across the street to visit the zoo. Make sure everyone is monitored to the nth degree.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
MRAP, it is not about YOU "taking care of someone" or even "bringing into the word." YOU are only one individual. It's not (in TWI style) just your responsibility to ensure someone "gets into the Word" and even less that they "accept" the Word (that's their individual responsibility). For a start, you are not the only person in your victim's (?) life. (They were victims when we tried to get them to take the class!) It's egotistical to think that it's all down to YOU. Don't you think Jesus has other people helping the person he wants to "bring into the Word"? Other people that the intended lives with, works with, has as relatives or neighbors, fellow club members, drinking mates... We are fellow laborers with him (Jesus) and not take-over merchants that want the glory all for ourselves.
Be thankful if your example or your words does help win someone. But it's highly likely that many others will have played a significant part too in sowing the seed; maybe you were just the last to add a little water or got the privilege to "harvest" - but it's not your harvest, you are still only one of many laborers.
There are many ways to witness. Your lifestyle is key. Help at a food bank, with the Salvation Army, in a charity shop, doing something useful in your neighborhood. Whatever. Stand up alongside people who are oppressed. Confront the workplace bully. Don't get drunk but help those who are drunk. DO something, don't knock on doors or simply tell people. Let your life and your actions be the witness. That's the way you will "bring people to the Word." And you will show them right living at the same time.
It's NOT lame to help other people. You don't know what simply being kind to someone in a soup kitchen might mean to them.
Be prepared, yourself, to work alongside other Christians. You might just shock yourself with what you learn from them. Indeed, you might find yourself being "brought to the Word." The real Word. The Living Word.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Incredibly poignant words. Thanks, Twinky, for writing them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
There's this great poem by Edgar A. Guest that starts out:
"I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day".
I work as a product demonstrator in a large membership warehouse store. People from all over the world live in the city where I work and come there to shop, eat free samples, or just hang out for a while. I am still a Christian but have been dissociated from TWI for many years now. I give them samples, love, smile at their babies, speak gently, give them more samples, and try to brighten their day. I've had babies throw up in front of me; I've comforted widows, prayed with those in stress, and just generally tried to BE instead of SAY or DO.
Many of the members are not Christian, but are Hindus or Muslims. I try to be sure I know what ingredients they would wish to avoid and warn them if necessary.
Is this going to get some of them saved? I dunno. I'm just trying to scatter some seeds of Christ's love.
WWJD is not a bad question to ask yourself now and then, in my opinion.
Edited by Watered GardenLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
http://www.inspirationpeak.com/cgi-bin/poetry.cgi?record=110
I'd Rather See A Sermon
Edgar A. Guest
I'd rather see a sermon
than hear one any day;
I'd rather one should walk with me
than merely tell the way.
The eye's a better pupil
and more willing than the ear,
Fine counsel is confusing,
but example's always clear;
And the best of all preachers
are the men who live their creeds,
For to see good put in action
is what everybody needs.
I soon can learn to do it
if you'll let me see it done;
I can watch your hands in action,
but your tongue too fast may run.
And the lecture you deliver
may be very wise and true,
But I'd rather get my lessons
by observing what you do;
For I might misunderstand you
and the high advice you give,
But there's no misunderstanding
how you act and how you live.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
newlife
I had never heard or read the entire poem. But, I heard VP say part of it. I like it.....so very true isn't it?? I think of by their fruit you shall know them.......Guess I forgot about that when I was in TWI....
Thanks for posting that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.