I can't tell you one way or the other if it's true. I wasn't there. I know, however, it was not too uncommon for TWI to do things that were similar in order to build a sense of group identity. It often had an element of peer pressure, as well, because, if one failed, all failed.
I can't tell you one way or the other if it's true. I wasn't there. I know, however, it was not too uncommon for TWI to do things that were similar in order to build a sense of group identity. It often had an element of peer pressure, as well, because, if one failed, all failed.
I also do not know IF they did it. However, we do know that they did that
type of thing, and things more distressing than that.
IF they did it, as waysider pointed out, it was with the goals of building a
sense of group identity (the group all did it together),
obedience (do this silly thing and don't question it)
and developing peer pressure to promote social conformity in the corps
(if ONE of you fails, ALL of you fail, and ALL of you will know who failed
Sounds a bit like the Special Boat Service training where a team has to carry a boat everywhere during a particular type of training exercise. One fails, all fail. Maybe other Services have similar training.
VPW might have heard of such a thing and in his hotchpotch way decided it would be useful for the in-rez corps.
I can tell you that WC20-24 didn't do any such thing and I never heard of it from older corps.
That sounds like something they would have made Corps folks do on LEAD. I remember reading about a LEAD session where they were told that if one person went back as a "failure," they would all be considered failures. The outcome of that ingenious idea led one woman to have to amputate her own toes/toes and others suffering from severe frostbite. IMHO, of all the cold and heartless things the Way did in the name of spirituality (that was not at all spiritual) was LEAD and its predecessor, TFI.
Several of my friends at work were involved in "team-building exercises." One task was to have the whole group (about fifteen people) stand on a tarp with not much more area than they could all fit on, and turn the tarp over, without anyone getting off of the tarp. After about 20 minutes, they actually succeeded. The motivator asked what lesson they learned from that. One of my friends had the perfect reply: "Some things just aren't worth doing!"
Sounds a bit like the Special Boat Service training where a team has to carry a boat everywhere during a particular type of training exercise. One fails, all fail. Maybe other Services have similar training.
VPW might have heard of such a thing and in his hotchpotch way decided it would be useful for the in-rez corps.
I can tell you that WC20-24 didn't do any such thing and I never heard of it from older corps.
It does sound that way.
One hallmark of twi- and a lot of people object whenever someone points this out-
is that vpw was both LAZY and CLUELESS. He wanted things, but he never wanted
to do the work to get them or to even understand what they entailed.
That's why the most successful program, IMHO, for twi was the WOW program.
Take some young people with drive. Tell them to go somewhere and do something,
and provide neither support nor oversight nor transportation there.
and wait for them to succeed.
(Think about it-other than class materials, the WOWs were COMPLETELY on their own.)
There was also zero screening before the zero oversight, so the kids could discover,
on the field, that one of the people in their group was predatory or mentally ill
and a danger to himself or them. And if there was a problem on the field, the
WOW was put on a Greyhound Bus and sent home and forgotten about.
(We've had stories about how someone traumatized or injured was just put on a bus,
then turned up home WEEKS LATER, or how someone wandered off the bus and later was
discovered before they were killed or otherwise harmed further.)
As for the Corps, vpw liked the IDEA of the Corps. He liked that the IDEA of the
military had trained people who did whatever the higher-ups told them to do.
Did he know what it was like in the military? No- he had no advisors setting up the
program with any military experience. Did vpw have ANY military experience? He
didn't even enter the ROTC program-that would have been work. The man plagiarized
his way through school and picked soft options wherever he could
(like Homiletics), and the idea of the work in the ROTC program or Reserves or
National Guard was antithetical to his entire personality.
So, if he overheard of some exercise any branch of the military did, he would
certainly just adapt it without understanding it fully, or going over the possible
dangers and drawbacks to a completely different type of people performing the
That sounds like something they would have made Corps folks do on LEAD. I remember reading about a LEAD session where they were told that if one person went back as a "failure," they would all be considered failures. The outcome of that ingenious idea led one woman to have to amputate her own toes/toes and others suffering from severe frostbite. IMHO, of all the cold and heartless things the Way did in the name of spirituality (that was not at all spiritual) was LEAD and its predecessor, TFI.
EyesOpen's account of the horrific event illustrates what I said before.
"it was with the goals of building a
sense of group identity (the group all did it together),
obedience (do this silly thing and don't question it)
and developing peer pressure to promote social conformity in the corps
(if ONE of you fails, ALL of you fail, and ALL of you will know who failed
and obviously will give him/her static over it.) "
The group identity was built for the whole group who had to stay together
even when some were ill-equipped and injured.
The entire enterprise was being undertaken at that moment because it was more
important to keep to the schedule than to keep the participants alive.
(24 hours of waiting before performing the climb would have made a critical
difference.) The obedience thing is more obvious when one realizes most of
them were taking damage from sustained exposure to the wet and cold because
they were told they HAD TO.
As for the peer pressure to promote social conformity, that was all over things.
It seems a number of LEAD or Corps groups were TOLD they were considered
screw-ups or wash-outs. (Yeah, that's a real Christian way to proceed with
volunteers you accepted into your program who paid a premium to be there.
Even if they WERE, it's the fault of the nonexistent "screening" process
that they ended up there and the program that it wasn't organized to have
a Plan B or C for that.) So, the groups were told they were no good, and
had to really be blindly, jump-off-the-cliff obedient, and ignore common
sense and self-preservation, and had to keep the group intact.
So, where sensible people (who could recognize the signs) would have delayed
the climb until after the poor weather, or turned around as soon as it was
obvious they were under-prepared for the current weather and regrouped and
replanned from someplace warm and dry,
we had adults who were compelled (by social conformity and threats of
social sanctions very obvious) to ignore self-preservation and stay, even past
the introduction of long-term or permanent injuries.
The entire program was organized more about what was cheaper and whar
promoted social conformity and obedience rather than what was in the best
interests of the participants. That's why missing persons, body counts and
rapes never got vpw to reconsider anything (like the illegal hitch-hiking),
and the first thing that got any changes to happen was the multiple
lawsuits from people injured because twi went out of their way to ignore
their well-being. The programs eventually changed-not out of concern or
even practicality, but after listening to twi's lawyers.
How would you feel about joining a religious group that treated you as
disposable until their LAWYERS compelled them to change that?
Several of my friends at work were involved in "team-building exercises." One task was to have the whole group (about fifteen people) stand on a tarp with not much more area than they could all fit on, and turn the tarp over, without anyone getting off of the tarp. After about 20 minutes, they actually succeeded. The motivator asked what lesson they learned from that. One of my friends had the perfect reply: "Some things just aren't worth doing!"
George
Good reply, George.
That IS a good reply.
Some "team-building" doesn't make any sense,
and some exercises aren't worth doing.
I'm reminded of "Momentus"(and all the aliases it operates under because people
have been warned of Momentus already) and the lifeboat exercise,
where one is required to decide that their own life is more important than
everyone else's in the group, and announce so, and the group ridicules
those who refuse to do it. The only thing that taught was to be callous and
self-centered, and a supposedly Christian organization does it, and it's still being
quietly advertised and promoted by a different Christian organization
*cough stfi cough*.
Some groups aren't worth building or being a part of.
I don't recall what it was called but there was an incident in FellowLaborers where we had to stand in front of 50+ people and declare our uselessness as individuals. Oh, the fun times. How I miss it.
I read the account about the girl that severed her own toe! Made me sick!! That whole experience was from the devil. LEAD had so many sad stories of what happened to people when they went LEAD. Teamwork?? Build character, build believing?? What a bunch of crap. It was nothing but another exercise in what authority people could have over others. There was no real genuine concern about people and their well being. Who makes people stay out in the freezing cold with wet boots, wet socks, and says it's ok in their mind to do this? Pretty screwed up people that's who. We were told LEAD was a Godly thing, but there are many, many stories on the contrary about people who suffered. Some who even died. I'm so glad I never actually went corps. I was apprentice corps but after getting kicked and hit by leadership, I dropped out....all the time thinking I was an inferior believer who just didn't have what it took....It just appears to me that what we thought was Godly situations, were only devil inspired situations to berate, bring down, and belittle. How sickening.
Teamwork, building character? What hogwash really.
I'm so sorry for any of you who were in the Corps and experienced this horrible type of treatment. It's so sad......so sad.
This has rekindled my anger at what happened in TWI........people need to know.
I was in The Corps. We did this silly-assed thing once where we walked some sort of obstacle course in the Way Woods blindfolded. I'm not really sure what the lesson was supposed to be. I found it boring at the time, to be honest. I remember thinking to myself, "I have a college degree, why did I come here again?" It wasn't a VP thing though. He didn't spend much time with us. This was the brainchild a a staff member who was a Corps grad.
I was in sales for awhile after I left TWI. They also did some of these team building exercises. It was a waste of time then too.
The whole thing sounds a lot more tortuous than it really was. It was at worst a waste of time, as was the entire Way Corps "training".
Now, the thing Waysider shared about having to talk about how worthless you were, that sounds pretty brutal.
I don't remember any specific incident in the corps training where we had to self-criticize in the sense of political re-education, but it sure was a BIG PART of the Momentus experience...
I don't know if it was a "team-building" exercise......but at Emporia, in early February, each Twig was instructed to work together and help each other move everyone's stuff to another dorm room. Even with blizzard conditions coming our way, the task did NOT alter or adjust. So, on the big *move day*......there we were, trudging thru six inches of snow and near-blizzard conditions as we carried boxes, lamps, books, etc. to each new room assignment.
We were NOT done until everyone in our twig was completely moved into their new room.
Room/house changes: What was that all about? (Says he, rhetorically.)
They were never done at times that were convenient. You would think with all the heavy revelation that was taking place, they might have known it would be pouring rain, or there would be blizzard-like conditions or it would be 95 degrees out.
Those impromptu ones that happened at 3AM were peachy swell, too.
Folks, WordWolf has gotten the whole idea preatty straight as how it was taken from the military - right on target there WordWolf. In the military, those type exercises are conducted and do teach leadership and teamwork but in an environment that ensures you are safe (Lord help the trainer that allowed someone to get hurt because of trainer neglect - we were an expensive comnodity). As I have read above, it is quite possible those responsible for this training did not take all the environmental factors into account (risk vs probablility of injury - ammatures acting like professional soldiers = formula for disaster).
WordWolf, what you said about the WOW program: you hit that one outa the park on accuracy.
I was military before (and partly during) twi but when I did go back into the military as a career, my WOW experience helped.
I think the origonal post was for corp folk so excuse me for jumping in here.
Aside having been a commander, my primary positions in the later years was as a planner, a training planner when I got older. You had to see things from all angles. When preparing others to go off to war the last thing you wanted was to let them hurt themselves. Not sure if that applies but I see a dumb foot mode here "you go do it" and I will watch. That's not correct training nor is it leadership.
Very glad I never took that next step within twi - they would have kicked me out (got a bit hostile after the WOW year - I started to sas back with the new branch/corp person). There was a large waiting for the way corp back then - like I said on prior posts, don't know what ever happened to the folks I sponsored in the corp. I just guess they left at best and did not want to tell me they did so, feelings of shame and guilt. They were friends and to think those wrong feelings got in the way of keeping in touch.
It was not all that long after the end of the WOW year (2 years) that I called it game.
Recommended Posts
GeorgeStGeorge
Stories like this always make me happy that I never joined the Corps. :lol:
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I can't tell you one way or the other if it's true. I wasn't there. I know, however, it was not too uncommon for TWI to do things that were similar in order to build a sense of group identity. It often had an element of peer pressure, as well, because, if one failed, all failed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I also do not know IF they did it. However, we do know that they did that
type of thing, and things more distressing than that.
IF they did it, as waysider pointed out, it was with the goals of building a
sense of group identity (the group all did it together),
obedience (do this silly thing and don't question it)
and developing peer pressure to promote social conformity in the corps
(if ONE of you fails, ALL of you fail, and ALL of you will know who failed
and obviously will give him/her static over it.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Sounds a bit like the Special Boat Service training where a team has to carry a boat everywhere during a particular type of training exercise. One fails, all fail. Maybe other Services have similar training.
VPW might have heard of such a thing and in his hotchpotch way decided it would be useful for the in-rez corps.
I can tell you that WC20-24 didn't do any such thing and I never heard of it from older corps.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DogLover
That sounds like something they would have made Corps folks do on LEAD. I remember reading about a LEAD session where they were told that if one person went back as a "failure," they would all be considered failures. The outcome of that ingenious idea led one woman to have to amputate her own toes/toes and others suffering from severe frostbite. IMHO, of all the cold and heartless things the Way did in the name of spirituality (that was not at all spiritual) was LEAD and its predecessor, TFI.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
......one woman to have to amputate her own toes/toes and others suffering from severe frostbite.
I think it was Eyesopen who posted that incident. I'm not sure how to find the thread.
edit: HERE it is.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
Several of my friends at work were involved in "team-building exercises." One task was to have the whole group (about fifteen people) stand on a tarp with not much more area than they could all fit on, and turn the tarp over, without anyone getting off of the tarp. After about 20 minutes, they actually succeeded. The motivator asked what lesson they learned from that. One of my friends had the perfect reply: "Some things just aren't worth doing!"
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Good reply, George.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
It does sound that way.
One hallmark of twi- and a lot of people object whenever someone points this out-
is that vpw was both LAZY and CLUELESS. He wanted things, but he never wanted
to do the work to get them or to even understand what they entailed.
That's why the most successful program, IMHO, for twi was the WOW program.
Take some young people with drive. Tell them to go somewhere and do something,
and provide neither support nor oversight nor transportation there.
and wait for them to succeed.
(Think about it-other than class materials, the WOWs were COMPLETELY on their own.)
There was also zero screening before the zero oversight, so the kids could discover,
on the field, that one of the people in their group was predatory or mentally ill
and a danger to himself or them. And if there was a problem on the field, the
WOW was put on a Greyhound Bus and sent home and forgotten about.
(We've had stories about how someone traumatized or injured was just put on a bus,
then turned up home WEEKS LATER, or how someone wandered off the bus and later was
discovered before they were killed or otherwise harmed further.)
As for the Corps, vpw liked the IDEA of the Corps. He liked that the IDEA of the
military had trained people who did whatever the higher-ups told them to do.
Did he know what it was like in the military? No- he had no advisors setting up the
program with any military experience. Did vpw have ANY military experience? He
didn't even enter the ROTC program-that would have been work. The man plagiarized
his way through school and picked soft options wherever he could
(like Homiletics), and the idea of the work in the ROTC program or Reserves or
National Guard was antithetical to his entire personality.
So, if he overheard of some exercise any branch of the military did, he would
certainly just adapt it without understanding it fully, or going over the possible
dangers and drawbacks to a completely different type of people performing the
exact same exercise.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
EyesOpen's account of the horrific event illustrates what I said before.
"it was with the goals of building a
sense of group identity (the group all did it together),
obedience (do this silly thing and don't question it)
and developing peer pressure to promote social conformity in the corps
(if ONE of you fails, ALL of you fail, and ALL of you will know who failed
and obviously will give him/her static over it.) "
The group identity was built for the whole group who had to stay together
even when some were ill-equipped and injured.
The entire enterprise was being undertaken at that moment because it was more
important to keep to the schedule than to keep the participants alive.
(24 hours of waiting before performing the climb would have made a critical
difference.) The obedience thing is more obvious when one realizes most of
them were taking damage from sustained exposure to the wet and cold because
they were told they HAD TO.
As for the peer pressure to promote social conformity, that was all over things.
It seems a number of LEAD or Corps groups were TOLD they were considered
screw-ups or wash-outs. (Yeah, that's a real Christian way to proceed with
volunteers you accepted into your program who paid a premium to be there.
Even if they WERE, it's the fault of the nonexistent "screening" process
that they ended up there and the program that it wasn't organized to have
a Plan B or C for that.) So, the groups were told they were no good, and
had to really be blindly, jump-off-the-cliff obedient, and ignore common
sense and self-preservation, and had to keep the group intact.
So, where sensible people (who could recognize the signs) would have delayed
the climb until after the poor weather, or turned around as soon as it was
obvious they were under-prepared for the current weather and regrouped and
replanned from someplace warm and dry,
we had adults who were compelled (by social conformity and threats of
social sanctions very obvious) to ignore self-preservation and stay, even past
the introduction of long-term or permanent injuries.
The entire program was organized more about what was cheaper and whar
promoted social conformity and obedience rather than what was in the best
interests of the participants. That's why missing persons, body counts and
rapes never got vpw to reconsider anything (like the illegal hitch-hiking),
and the first thing that got any changes to happen was the multiple
lawsuits from people injured because twi went out of their way to ignore
their well-being. The programs eventually changed-not out of concern or
even practicality, but after listening to twi's lawyers.
How would you feel about joining a religious group that treated you as
disposable until their LAWYERS compelled them to change that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
That IS a good reply.
Some "team-building" doesn't make any sense,
and some exercises aren't worth doing.
I'm reminded of "Momentus"(and all the aliases it operates under because people
have been warned of Momentus already) and the lifeboat exercise,
where one is required to decide that their own life is more important than
everyone else's in the group, and announce so, and the group ridicules
those who refuse to do it. The only thing that taught was to be callous and
self-centered, and a supposedly Christian organization does it, and it's still being
quietly advertised and promoted by a different Christian organization
*cough stfi cough*.
Some groups aren't worth building or being a part of.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I don't recall what it was called but there was an incident in FellowLaborers where we had to stand in front of 50+ people and declare our uselessness as individuals. Oh, the fun times. How I miss it.
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Amazingly, many of us (including me) bought into some kind of mind control in order to fall for that scheme.
Makes me think about another cult like group that promised 70 virgins for something or other.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
newlife
I read the account about the girl that severed her own toe! Made me sick!! That whole experience was from the devil. LEAD had so many sad stories of what happened to people when they went LEAD. Teamwork?? Build character, build believing?? What a bunch of crap. It was nothing but another exercise in what authority people could have over others. There was no real genuine concern about people and their well being. Who makes people stay out in the freezing cold with wet boots, wet socks, and says it's ok in their mind to do this? Pretty screwed up people that's who. We were told LEAD was a Godly thing, but there are many, many stories on the contrary about people who suffered. Some who even died. I'm so glad I never actually went corps. I was apprentice corps but after getting kicked and hit by leadership, I dropped out....all the time thinking I was an inferior believer who just didn't have what it took....It just appears to me that what we thought was Godly situations, were only devil inspired situations to berate, bring down, and belittle. How sickening.
Teamwork, building character? What hogwash really.
I'm so sorry for any of you who were in the Corps and experienced this horrible type of treatment. It's so sad......so sad.
This has rekindled my anger at what happened in TWI........people need to know.
Thanks for your posts......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
I was in The Corps. We did this silly-assed thing once where we walked some sort of obstacle course in the Way Woods blindfolded. I'm not really sure what the lesson was supposed to be. I found it boring at the time, to be honest. I remember thinking to myself, "I have a college degree, why did I come here again?" It wasn't a VP thing though. He didn't spend much time with us. This was the brainchild a a staff member who was a Corps grad.
I was in sales for awhile after I left TWI. They also did some of these team building exercises. It was a waste of time then too.
The whole thing sounds a lot more tortuous than it really was. It was at worst a waste of time, as was the entire Way Corps "training".
Now, the thing Waysider shared about having to talk about how worthless you were, that sounds pretty brutal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
And this stuff was supposed to make us better leaders? Leaders of what? How?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
I don't remember any specific incident in the corps training where we had to self-criticize in the sense of political re-education, but it sure was a BIG PART of the Momentus experience...
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
I don't know if it was a "team-building" exercise......but at Emporia, in early February, each Twig was instructed to work together and help each other move everyone's stuff to another dorm room. Even with blizzard conditions coming our way, the task did NOT alter or adjust. So, on the big *move day*......there we were, trudging thru six inches of snow and near-blizzard conditions as we carried boxes, lamps, books, etc. to each new room assignment.
We were NOT done until everyone in our twig was completely moved into their new room.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Room/house changes: What was that all about? (Says he, rhetorically.)
They were never done at times that were convenient. You would think with all the heavy revelation that was taking place, they might have known it would be pouring rain, or there would be blizzard-like conditions or it would be 95 degrees out.
Those impromptu ones that happened at 3AM were peachy swell, too.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
Folks, WordWolf has gotten the whole idea preatty straight as how it was taken from the military - right on target there WordWolf. In the military, those type exercises are conducted and do teach leadership and teamwork but in an environment that ensures you are safe (Lord help the trainer that allowed someone to get hurt because of trainer neglect - we were an expensive comnodity). As I have read above, it is quite possible those responsible for this training did not take all the environmental factors into account (risk vs probablility of injury - ammatures acting like professional soldiers = formula for disaster).
WordWolf, what you said about the WOW program: you hit that one outa the park on accuracy.
I was military before (and partly during) twi but when I did go back into the military as a career, my WOW experience helped.
I think the origonal post was for corp folk so excuse me for jumping in here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Actually, in this thread, Twinky mentioned it first.
However, we've discussed this over the years.
vpw said, many times, that he wanted something like the military when he
started the way corps, and was jealous of the military's ability to
get people to do things without arguing and additional motivation.
(Which showed he had no idea why they were doing it or how they got there.)
Some people-all of whom were never in the way corps nor the military-
have been quite outspoken about how injuries and other problems that
could have been easily avoided were not to be dwelt upon because it was
supposed to be like the military (and variations of that sentiment).
We've pointed out that the military is a lot clearer about physical
danger being a component-it's a military. Bang, bang, kaboom.
Plus, they really do plan things out to minimize accidental injuries
during training. twi does not, vpw never did. Then again, he never
knew the military does/did, and didn't really CARE since it would have
been a LOT harder to make a program that minimized the risks to the
participants. When injuries happened, vpw never re-evalutated dangerous
practices and insisted they would continue.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
Aside having been a commander, my primary positions in the later years was as a planner, a training planner when I got older. You had to see things from all angles. When preparing others to go off to war the last thing you wanted was to let them hurt themselves. Not sure if that applies but I see a dumb foot mode here "you go do it" and I will watch. That's not correct training nor is it leadership.
Very glad I never took that next step within twi - they would have kicked me out (got a bit hostile after the WOW year - I started to sas back with the new branch/corp person). There was a large waiting for the way corp back then - like I said on prior posts, don't know what ever happened to the folks I sponsored in the corp. I just guess they left at best and did not want to tell me they did so, feelings of shame and guilt. They were friends and to think those wrong feelings got in the way of keeping in touch.
It was not all that long after the end of the WOW year (2 years) that I called it game.
Sorry folks, I am ranting in the wrong thread.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
No, this is the right thread. Your response is relevant and welcome.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.