Actually I did hear top leaders encourage using this "technique". They didn't refer to it as "date and switch", and they didn't refer to it as "whoring for Jesus". We were just told to "use what we had" and that was in reference to sex appeal and attractiveness.
It wasn't instruction to go out and sexually seduce people but it was encouragement to be attractive with a view to attracting others in. There was no formal training or anything or anything like that.
Of course I've heard of it. Even David Craley in his book 'In search of the light;the hope of glory' said he kind of got witnessed to that way. Eew. Even the 5th WC principle, make your physical body as dynamic as possible, whatever, could be inferred as that, couldn't it?
But it is certainly relevant that everybody believes that sex sells. I was a fast food asst mgr for 6 years and we most definitely put the hottest girls on front counter during busy periods. Yeah, we were sexist pigs. So what?
Bottom line is, people actually got delivered, but now decades later somebody who changed their mind and thinks it was all bogus says "hair raising stories" etc.
Of course I've heard of it. Even David Craley in his book 'In search of the light;the hope of glory' said he kind of got witnessed to that way. Eew. Even the 5th WC principle, make your physical body as dynamic as possible, whatever, could be inferred as that, couldn't it?
But it is certainly relevant that everybody believes that sex sells. I was a fast food asst mgr for 6 years and we most definitely put the hottest girls on front counter during busy periods. Yeah, we were sexist pigs. So what?
Bottom line is, people actually got delivered, but now decades later somebody who changed their mind and thinks it was all bogus says "hair raising stories" etc.
Deliverance is in the eye of the beholder, eh?
Sure, in marketing sex sells. I doubt that in your fast-food scenario,however, you had the girls flirt specifically with, or go out with people to bring them in as customer.
But your assertion that sex and sex appeal as good marketing is well taken. It just shows that the mentality of TWI and you is to market supposed biblical teaching as a product, for the sole purpose of driving sales.
If you think that's okay, then you were in good company in TWI. Personally, it's not the way I would prefer to represent God. In the Bible, He is all about bringing people to repentance and having a relationship with them. He is also all about building moral character.
Promoting a ministry with an appeal to one's lusts sort of goes against all of that, but that's just my opinion. You go ahead and promote your religion, ideals or whatever anyway you wish.
"Not once in the 18 years I was in twi did I ever hear any leader promote this "whoring for Jesus" strategy."
post#29:
(same poster)
"Of course I've heard of it. Even David Craley in his book 'In search of the light;the hope of glory' said he kind of got witnessed to that way. Eew. Even the 5th WC principle, make your physical body as dynamic as possible, whatever, could be inferred as that, couldn't it?"
You're pretty good at misrepresenting yourself, Waysider.
Sure, in marketing sex sells. I doubt that in your fast-food scenario,however, you had the girls flirt specifically with, or go out with people to bring them in as customer.
But your assertion that sex and sex appeal as good marketing is well taken. It just shows that the mentality of TWI and you is to market supposed biblical teaching as a product, for the sole purpose of driving sales.
If you think that's okay, then you were in good company in TWI. Personally, it's not the way I would prefer to represent God. In the Bible, He is all about bringing people to repentance and having a relationship with them. He is also all about building moral character.
Promoting a ministry with an appeal to one's lusts sort of goes against all of that, but that's just my opinion. You go ahead and promote your religion, ideals or whatever anyway you wish.
The deliverance that so many people got through twi can only come from God. Sometimes it was as a product, sometimes it was not. What's wrong with products? Religion is always cranking out endless rules which God does not require. Thou shalt not have products. You can't learn about Jesus in a classroom. No wonder so many people want to join "cults".
Bottom line is, people actually got delivered, but now decades later somebody who changed their mind and thinks it was all bogus says "hair raising stories" etc.
Deliverance is in the eye of the beholder, eh?
I don't know what to make of you, johniam... I can only infer that you are directing this comment at me, since I am the one who characterized the events my wife was involved with when she was in TWI as "hair raising"... You imagine and speculate what my motivations are without asking or even referencing the voluminous writings I've posted elsewhere on Greasespot... "people [steve Lortz] actually got delivered, but now decades later somebody [steve Lortz] who changed their mind [at what point?] and thinks it was all [ALL?] bogus says "hair raising stories" etc."
I recognize many specific deliverances I have received from the Lord Jesus Christ before, during and after my involvement with TWI. I didn't change my mind about the benefits of being involved with TWI decades later... I changed it in the spring of 1987, when I heard credible evidence that Martindale had tried to hit on a woman I knew, and that woman personally confirmed the truth of that incident. That was the time when I realized that the whole real purpose of TWI was NOT to "move the Word over the world" but to gratify the greed and lust of Wierwille, Martindale, the Trustees and others.
Was it all bogus? Wierwille's presentation was very deceptive. He preached truths straight out of the Bible, but he taught terribly twisted doctrine, usually at the same time. When people believed the truths Wierwille preached, they DID get deliverance, because God is faithful to his Word. When people believed the errors Wierwille taught, the result was bondage rather than deliverance.
Wierwille did not teach that sin in itself, sexual or otherwise, was wrong. In this "age of grace", whether something is sinful or not just doesn't matter. What matters is "broken fellowship." Broken fellowship doesn't come from sinning, it comes from "sin consciousness." In this age of grace we are free to do anything we want to do, and as long as we don't think of it as sin, there are no consequences. But people come into bondage to whatever they serve. If people serve sin, as Wierwille did, they come into bondage to that sin. Deliverance came as a consequence of believing the truths that were written in the Bible. Bondage to sin came as a consequence of believing the things that Wierwille taught in PFAL.
Does the end justify the means, johniam? Is it all right to lie to people (date and switch) so they can learn "truth"? Is it all right to kill some people (abortion) so that others can "live"? Is it okay to kill the fruit of a sexual encounter because the only purpose of that sexual encounter was to get somebody to sign a green card?
Deliverance is not in the eye of the beholder, johniam. Neither is self-serving sexual abuse... and TWI was full of it...
I don't know what to make of you, johniam... I can only infer that you are directing this comment at me, since I am the one who characterized the events my wife was involved with when she was in TWI as "hair raising"... You imagine and speculate what my motivations are without asking or even referencing the voluminous writings I've posted elsewhere on Greasespot... "people [steve Lortz] actually got delivered, but now decades later somebody [steve Lortz] who changed their mind [at what point?] and thinks it was all [ALL?] bogus says "hair raising stories" etc."
I recognize many specific deliverances I have received from the Lord Jesus Christ before, during and after my involvement with TWI. I didn't change my mind about the benefits of being involved with TWI decades later... I changed it in the spring of 1987, when I heard credible evidence that Martindale had tried to hit on a woman I knew, and that woman personally confirmed the truth of that incident. That was the time when I realized that the whole real purpose of TWI was NOT to "move the Word over the world" but to gratify the greed and lust of Wierwille, Martindale, the Trustees and others.
Was it all bogus? Wierwille's presentation was very deceptive. He preached truths straight out of the Bible, but he taught terribly twisted doctrine, usually at the same time. When people believed the truths Wierwille preached, they DID get deliverance, because God is faithful to his Word. When people believed the errors Wierwille taught, the result was bondage rather than deliverance.
Wierwille did not teach that sin in itself, sexual or otherwise, was wrong. In this "age of grace", whether something is sinful or not just doesn't matter. What matters is "broken fellowship." Broken fellowship doesn't come from sinning, it comes from "sin consciousness." In this age of grace we are free to do anything we want to do, and as long as we don't think of it as sin, there are no consequences. But people come into bondage to whatever they serve. If people serve sin, as Wierwille did, they come into bondage to that sin. Deliverance came as a consequence of believing the truths that were written in the Bible. Bondage to sin came as a consequence of believing the things that Wierwille taught in PFAL.
By now, either Johniam is unable to see those points no matter how often they are articulated,
or he knows darn well he's standing up a squad of strawmen and is doing it deliberately.
Yes, he should be called on it each and every time,
but don't expect him to get it at any point.
(The response is necessary, but not for him.)
Does the end justify the means, johniam? Is it all right to lie to people (date and switch) so they can learn "truth"? Is it all right to kill some people (abortion) so that others can "live"? Is it okay to kill the fruit of a sexual encounter because the only purpose of that sexual encounter was to get somebody to sign a green card?
Deliverance is not in the eye of the beholder, johniam. Neither is self-serving sexual abuse... and TWI was full of it...
Love,
Steve
I suspect that Johniam thinks THAT end justifies ANY means-
providing that HE doesn't have to sacrifice the means.
So, meaningless, casual sex to get a Green Card signed, for a
student for "the class"? Sure-so long as it's not John or
anyone he lays claim to who has to provide it. So long as
someone else is volunteered to prostitute themself for it,
that's fine, although he's hoping nobody's caught that he's
Was it all bogus? Wierwille's presentation was very deceptive.
Indeed, Wierwille was not physically attractive... but, seduction is not limited to sex.
In fact, if the seduction techniques used in twi had been of the kind to reach into the soul of a person and touch that soul with a word or an action that demonstrated a kindness to the person that was meaningful, THAT is seduction. Seduction without ulterior motives.
I suspect that kind of seduction took place from time to time in twi, AND elsewhere, and provided a kind of deliverance to plenty of people.
If twi could have understood that, and effectively communicated it, we might not be sitting here writing posts on GSC right now.
Alas, because the organization was corrupt at its core, because the heart of its founder appeared not to know that truth, twi couldn't make it the foundation of its growth strategy.
Anyway, just a little bit of my stream of consciousness for the moment. Thanks for indulging me.
Btw, a couple of TED talks opened my eyes to the notion that seduction is not always or only about sex.
You're pretty good at misrepresenting yourself, Waysider.
The deliverance that so many people got through twi can only come from God. Sometimes it was as a product, sometimes it was not. What's wrong with products? Religion is always cranking out endless rules which God does not require. Thou shalt not have products. You can't learn about Jesus in a classroom. No wonder so many people want to join "cults".
I still say, go for it Johniam. Sex sells. You have such great wisdom. There are plenty of hurting people out there who will hang on your every word and make you their guru. I mean, why all this talk?
Yeah, why don't we just let this one die. Sure, it's a cult. Always has been. No godly deliverance, just bondage. Whatever,
No, johnian, let's not just let this one die... if we are going to take responsibility for our beliefs and actions... which is the only way to become truly free... then we have to be rigorously honest about the decisions we've made, and why we made them.
Was it wrong for me to be involved in TWI. That depends on the knowledge I had of the organization. When I thought that Wierwille's on-stage personna of the elderly Bible teacher was genuine, I had no problems promoting the benefits I thought I was receiving from PFAL. And I HAD received benefits... it's just that I had been deceived into thinking those benefits came from PFAL, and not from the Lord Jesus Christ. But when I realized that Wierwille was actually a predator using the truths he preached in PFAL to disguise the errors he was teaching and to take all sorts of advantages of well-meaning people, I knew that promoting TWI was very, very wrong. Not only that, but I realized I had to spend at least as much energy de-promoting TWI as I had spent promoting it.
You wrote, "No godly deliverance, just bondage. Whatever," Why do you classify abortion, taking human lives, as "whatever", johniam? Why? I suggest that you will never be able to free yourself from the deceptive heartlessness promoted by Wierwille until you come to some prayerful consideration of that question...
No, johnian, let's not just let this one die... if we are going to take responsibility for our beliefs and actions... which is the only way to become truly free... then we have to be rigorously honest about the decisions we've made, and why we made them.
Was it wrong for me to be involved in TWI. That depends on the knowledge I had of the organization. When I thought that Wierwille's on-stage personna of the elderly Bible teacher was genuine, I had no problems promoting the benefits I thought I was receiving from PFAL. And I HAD received benefits... it's just that I had been deceived into thinking those benefits came from PFAL, and not from the Lord Jesus Christ. But when I realized that Wierwille was actually a predator using the truths he preached in PFAL to disguise the errors he was teaching and to take all sorts of advantages of well-meaning people, I knew that promoting TWI was very, very wrong. Not only that, but I realized I had to spend at least as much energy de-promoting TWI as I had spent promoting it.
Very well said. :eusa_clap:
After years of ignoring red flags in twi, I realized that the source of deception was wierwille.
He was the one who orchestrated this manipulation, deception and exploitation on the followers
.......and TAUGHT the corps to do likewise. The masquerading of "The Way" was calculated and
conniving from one who was deceiving himself and others.
The OTHER SIDE of wierwille and twi is now, for all to see, an open forum.
the same thing happened to Paul in the first century church. Most of the believers left his ministry and lots of them turned against Paul. History repeating itself. With the quality of leadership on the field now there may come a day when the corps isnt needed.
People are getting smarter and the times have changed!
It is FAR to easy to look up twi online and see all the criticism.
Even if twi did a FANTASTIC presentation, eventually they either
have to say their name, or have everyone suspicious because they
refused to say their name. Looking them up online quickly shows
all the warnings, and hundreds of pages of discussion, analysis
and direct testimony of eyewitnesses RIGHT HERE.
So, we still starve their fire of fuel by informing the strangers
and the clueless.
"In vain is the net spread in sight of any bird."
There's also no zeitgeist like the hippies for twi to hijack.
vpw lied and deceived his way into their trust, and used them
to sell twi on both coasts. There's no equivalent group
available now.
There's no dynamic speaker to even SELL twi to the stranger.
Rosa-lie is dry and boring, and any dynamic speaker would be
a threat to her-even if they HAD one.
There's no "special knowledge" anymore. It's far too easy to
find local churches that teach the Bible, it's far too easy
to find "special knowledge" websites for free.
So, twi has NOTHING to offer new people. So, its current
recruitment is to recruit the kids of innies. This becomes
especially ironic after decades of discouraging innies to
HAVE children. So, there's a few spoiled kids of the
inner cadre, and a few kids of the rank-and-file.
That's not enough to replace the people who leave due to
finally getting fed up and leave due to dying. So, the
numbers keep dwindling every year, even if it's in the
single digits. And the younger ones think they can
turn it all around.
Why can't the younger ones turn it all around?
A) No special knowledge not already out there.
B) No zeitgeist to plug into.
C) Everyone's been warned about twi.
So, everything they have to offer is old, tired, and
worn-out, and usually only re-served to those who've
sat through it thousands of times by now.
And if they COULD energize people somehow?
Rosa-lie would guillotine the whole thing because
anyone with a lick of talent is a threat to her,
even Donna. Any dynamic leader could "steal" her
entire base away from here before she saw it coming.
So, she clamps down on talent.
So, twi dwindles every year, and the members get older,
and a handful of members become teenagers and adults.
That's a tiny handful, from whom SOME may join the Corps,
which explains why any active Corps program would be
in the single digits.
I could care a less about some personality. All I care about is GODS WORD in my life and the joy, excitment , and adventure GOD brings. I never cared about presentations either. The reason I go to way fellowships is the hear the WORD, and teach others the stuff I learn at home. I could care a less about how big or how small the way is. I went wow 2 times and way disciple once. it was some of the best time in my life. maybe it has to do with my ever wanting to learn and know and help others attitude. I strive to be the best electrician and drummer I can be. ever since about the the 6th grade i have had this attitude or whatever its called. that was 1969. in 1980 i was praying to GOD for people to teach me the truth about HIM. unknown to me at the time GOD directed my path to them. there were some bad people in the way and they hurt people. my dad was a violent drunk and tried to kill me twice. i have a scar on my forehead he gave me when i was about 5yo. in the 70's my younger brother broke into a gas station i managed and stole a lot of stuff and got caught. i got fired and didnt get my last paycheck because of him. i know what its like to be hurt but i never saw or knew anyone in the way to have the hell beat out of them like my dad did to me when i was growing up. i had to leave and go live with my grandmother when i was 16. i know a lot of people that are corp grads all the way back to the 11th corps that say it was one of the best times in there life. the way isnt fo everybody and neither is GODS WORD. playing drums in a touring rock n roll band isnt for everybody and thats why i dont tour.
The Way Corps still exists, it simply put on a disguise, changed its name and moved to Mississippi.
HAY ! I'm from missippi ! there are several of those independent groups around that teach the accuracy of GODS WORD. a good friend and exway believer was just ordained by one of them. i went to his ordination and told his congregation what a great man of GOD he is. the WORD of GOD is HIS WORD no matter who teaches it.
.....and yet, it was commonplace in The Way's halcyon days for women (and sometimes men) to use physical attraction to lure new recruits into the fold, some even offering sexual favors in exchange for a Green Card commitment. Once the new recruit was hooked, the Way-promoting believer would move on to another prospective recruit. It was the Way's version of bait and switch, sometimes referred to as date and switch. I guess it's only considered a "distraction" if it leads people AWAY, rather than TO the organization.
wheres your proof ! i never saw any such thing. i was in the way in jackson mississippi in 1980-1981 in a fellowship run by 2 beautiful women in their mid 20's , i was wow in clinton iowa 1981-1982 with another guy and 2 beautiful women , i went back to jackson in 1982-1983 and lived with a corps family , i was wow 1983-1984 in cheyanne wyoming with 2 guys , in 1984-1985 i was in virginia beach in a young corps womans fellowship , in 1985-1986 i was in atlanta in a corp guys fellowship , in 1986-1987 i was in houston in a corp families fellopwship , in 1987 i was in west hollywood in Dennis D. fellowship and lived in several places in los angeles , in 2003-2004 i was way disciple in hoover alabama , in 2004 i went back to los angeles and have ben in about 7 different fellowships in los angeles and over all those years did and do lots of witnessing with all kinds of different people and no one ever used sex or attraction or coercion or anything else to sign people up for the class. all we ever did and do is speak the WORD to people. this thing about using sex to sign people up for the class is a lie from whoever started it. i dont care if you want to bad mouth the ministry or air your anger at some leader that did you wrong like was done to me but i will not be silent about outright lies.
You can continue to disbelieve it if you choose. No one can force you to accept that it's true. Fact is, though, "date and switch" was actually quite commonplace, especially whenever and wherever there were quotas to be met. (It wasn't called "date and switch" at the time.) You need not look any farther than the pages of GSC to find firsthand testimony to that effect. I, myself, am a product of it. You say you never personally witnessed it being used. I have no reason to disbelieve your experience.
One thing you should take into consideration is that you only saw a very small part of what took place. Yes, I understand that three *tours of duty*, so to speak, may seem like a lot, but it only represents a tiny fraction of what went on.
In regard to the physical violence you experienced, I'm sorry you were treated that way . No one deserves to have that happen to them. Again, I understand you never personally saw it, but there was plenty of physical violence, along with psychological abuse in The Way. In fact, there are even documented cases of murder (yes, murder) that happened on the W.O.W. field. Additionally, there was a lot of domestic violence, child abuse and sexual abuse that, although not directly sanctioned by The Way, was an indirect product of some of the distorted doctrines and lifestyle promoted by the organization. Wierwille , himself, is known to have drugged and then raped many young women at HQ and other locations. Some have come forth to give their testimony here. One has even written a book that you can read about on the front page of this site.
You may not realize it, but VPW had thug-like bodyguards to insure his safety. One top leader even kept a gun in the teaching podium at HQ in case trouble should erupt during Sunday Night Service. You can read about these things on the front page of this site, also, from firsthand witnesses.
Like yourself, many people are overwhelmed, flabbergasted to learn of these things for the first time. Much of it has been swept under the rug for a very long time. It's a lot to take in all at once. The purpose of GSC is to expose these ugly truths to the light of day for all to see.
the same thing happened to Paul in the first century church. Most of the believers left his ministry and lots of them turned against Paul. History repeating itself.
The same thing? There were allegations of sexual impropriety (okay, rape) against Paul? Gosh, I didn't know that!
Yes, can see why "most of the believers" would leave his ministry, and turn against him. They were wise ... if that were the case.
I suspect that current twi "innies" use the irrational rationale as explained by shiftthis because it's been offered as an
effective shiny object to distract followers away from having to assess wierwille's depravity.
i have never talked to anyone in the way about what i posted about people turning away from Paul. I got what i posted from the Bible. the only thing i ever talked to anyone about was LCM and the 2 women he was banging and that was a long time ago. whatever may or may not have happened was long ago. the way of today is not the same ministry as it was when LCM was the pres. LCM turned into a major a hole. the way of today is so different from when it was in 1980 when i went to fellowship. but one things for sure , the believers i was around then and am around now are good people. if anyone had ever gotten violent and i was there i would have stopped it and called the cops. if i had know of anyone using sex to get a green card signed i would have spoken up. i never heard of a green card quota either. the 1st year i was wow we ran 1 class. the 2nd year we did not run a class. we ran one class on the way disciple field. all the people that signed up did it freely. are there guys that signed the card because a woman witnessed to them ? imo yes ! why ? if you cant figure that one out theres no hope for ya ! lol !
VP had armed body gaurds. yes i know. i was in a restroom at a way event in mississippi and a few armed body guards came in and looked around and then VP came in. members of congress have armed body guards. i was at a burger joint in hollywood and several armed men came in and looked around and then a small bald guy came in and ate. lots of movie stars here in los angeles have armed body guards. i know a few big time musicians that carry a heater. nothing wrong with that. around 1980 or 81 we were witnessing at a shopping center in south jackson mississippi. one of the believers was a black. some guys in a pickup truck were riding around in the parking lot yelling racial stuff at us. they pulled out onto McDowell rd and the guy on the passenger side pointed a gun at us. a different black guy had all 4 of his tires slashed during fellowship one night. a branch coordinator was shot at and had bullet holes in his car. someone switched the wires on the ignition coil on one of the women that ran a fellowship. she called me and when the coil wasnt firing i checked the wiring. there was other stuff done to. so i can see why VP had a gun close buy.when i travel across he country i carry 2 .45's , 6 loaded mags and 50 extra rounds just in case of dia. i call it my travel kit. well , what do you expect , i'm from south mississippi. lol !
Okaaayyyy....no violence in todays twi ? are you freakn serious ??!! I have 'relatives' still in who like to resort to violence and threats of violence...no sexual impropriety in todays twi ? again are you freakn serious ??!! I know people who are in leadership positions in twi TODAY who have been men whores on a regular basis...and yes I have 2, 3 more witnesses to this....wake the f up and smell the f'n coffee dwaynebrain
i have never talked to anyone in the way about what i posted about people turning away from Paul. I got what i posted from the Bible. the only thing i ever talked to anyone about was LCM and the 2 women he was banging...
no , i'm not an innie.
Only two?
What makes you think you're the only one who has said or even thought any of that?
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Broken Arrow
Actually I did hear top leaders encourage using this "technique". They didn't refer to it as "date and switch", and they didn't refer to it as "whoring for Jesus". We were just told to "use what we had" and that was in reference to sex appeal and attractiveness.
It wasn't instruction to go out and sexually seduce people but it was encouragement to be attractive with a view to attracting others in. There was no formal training or anything or anything like that.
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johniam
Of course I've heard of it. Even David Craley in his book 'In search of the light;the hope of glory' said he kind of got witnessed to that way. Eew. Even the 5th WC principle, make your physical body as dynamic as possible, whatever, could be inferred as that, couldn't it?
But it is certainly relevant that everybody believes that sex sells. I was a fast food asst mgr for 6 years and we most definitely put the hottest girls on front counter during busy periods. Yeah, we were sexist pigs. So what?
Bottom line is, people actually got delivered, but now decades later somebody who changed their mind and thinks it was all bogus says "hair raising stories" etc.
Deliverance is in the eye of the beholder, eh?
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Broken Arrow
Sure, in marketing sex sells. I doubt that in your fast-food scenario,however, you had the girls flirt specifically with, or go out with people to bring them in as customer.
But your assertion that sex and sex appeal as good marketing is well taken. It just shows that the mentality of TWI and you is to market supposed biblical teaching as a product, for the sole purpose of driving sales.
If you think that's okay, then you were in good company in TWI. Personally, it's not the way I would prefer to represent God. In the Bible, He is all about bringing people to repentance and having a relationship with them. He is also all about building moral character.
Promoting a ministry with an appeal to one's lusts sort of goes against all of that, but that's just my opinion. You go ahead and promote your religion, ideals or whatever anyway you wish.
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waysider
post #23:
"Not once in the 18 years I was in twi did I ever hear any leader promote this "whoring for Jesus" strategy."
post#29:
(same poster)
"Of course I've heard of it. Even David Craley in his book 'In search of the light;the hope of glory' said he kind of got witnessed to that way. Eew. Even the 5th WC principle, make your physical body as dynamic as possible, whatever, could be inferred as that, couldn't it?"
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johniam
You're pretty good at misrepresenting yourself, Waysider.
The deliverance that so many people got through twi can only come from God. Sometimes it was as a product, sometimes it was not. What's wrong with products? Religion is always cranking out endless rules which God does not require. Thou shalt not have products. You can't learn about Jesus in a classroom. No wonder so many people want to join "cults".
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waysider
So, then, granting sexual favors for a chance of getting the recipient to enroll in PFAL is OK because they might get "delivered"?
Now who's talking about "whoring for Jesus"???
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Steve Lortz
I don't know what to make of you, johniam... I can only infer that you are directing this comment at me, since I am the one who characterized the events my wife was involved with when she was in TWI as "hair raising"... You imagine and speculate what my motivations are without asking or even referencing the voluminous writings I've posted elsewhere on Greasespot... "people [steve Lortz] actually got delivered, but now decades later somebody [steve Lortz] who changed their mind [at what point?] and thinks it was all [ALL?] bogus says "hair raising stories" etc."
I recognize many specific deliverances I have received from the Lord Jesus Christ before, during and after my involvement with TWI. I didn't change my mind about the benefits of being involved with TWI decades later... I changed it in the spring of 1987, when I heard credible evidence that Martindale had tried to hit on a woman I knew, and that woman personally confirmed the truth of that incident. That was the time when I realized that the whole real purpose of TWI was NOT to "move the Word over the world" but to gratify the greed and lust of Wierwille, Martindale, the Trustees and others.
Was it all bogus? Wierwille's presentation was very deceptive. He preached truths straight out of the Bible, but he taught terribly twisted doctrine, usually at the same time. When people believed the truths Wierwille preached, they DID get deliverance, because God is faithful to his Word. When people believed the errors Wierwille taught, the result was bondage rather than deliverance.
Wierwille did not teach that sin in itself, sexual or otherwise, was wrong. In this "age of grace", whether something is sinful or not just doesn't matter. What matters is "broken fellowship." Broken fellowship doesn't come from sinning, it comes from "sin consciousness." In this age of grace we are free to do anything we want to do, and as long as we don't think of it as sin, there are no consequences. But people come into bondage to whatever they serve. If people serve sin, as Wierwille did, they come into bondage to that sin. Deliverance came as a consequence of believing the truths that were written in the Bible. Bondage to sin came as a consequence of believing the things that Wierwille taught in PFAL.
Does the end justify the means, johniam? Is it all right to lie to people (date and switch) so they can learn "truth"? Is it all right to kill some people (abortion) so that others can "live"? Is it okay to kill the fruit of a sexual encounter because the only purpose of that sexual encounter was to get somebody to sign a green card?
Deliverance is not in the eye of the beholder, johniam. Neither is self-serving sexual abuse... and TWI was full of it...
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
By now, either Johniam is unable to see those points no matter how often they are articulated,
or he knows darn well he's standing up a squad of strawmen and is doing it deliberately.
Yes, he should be called on it each and every time,
but don't expect him to get it at any point.
(The response is necessary, but not for him.)
I suspect that Johniam thinks THAT end justifies ANY means-
providing that HE doesn't have to sacrifice the means.
So, meaningless, casual sex to get a Green Card signed, for a
student for "the class"? Sure-so long as it's not John or
anyone he lays claim to who has to provide it. So long as
someone else is volunteered to prostitute themself for it,
that's fine, although he's hoping nobody's caught that he's
supported that across this page.
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Rocky
Indeed, Wierwille was not physically attractive... but, seduction is not limited to sex.
In fact, if the seduction techniques used in twi had been of the kind to reach into the soul of a person and touch that soul with a word or an action that demonstrated a kindness to the person that was meaningful, THAT is seduction. Seduction without ulterior motives.
I suspect that kind of seduction took place from time to time in twi, AND elsewhere, and provided a kind of deliverance to plenty of people.
If twi could have understood that, and effectively communicated it, we might not be sitting here writing posts on GSC right now.
Alas, because the organization was corrupt at its core, because the heart of its founder appeared not to know that truth, twi couldn't make it the foundation of its growth strategy.
Anyway, just a little bit of my stream of consciousness for the moment. Thanks for indulging me.
Btw, a couple of TED talks opened my eyes to the notion that seduction is not always or only about sex.
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Broken Arrow
I still say, go for it Johniam. Sex sells. You have such great wisdom. There are plenty of hurting people out there who will hang on your every word and make you their guru. I mean, why all this talk?
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johniam
Yeah, why don't we just let this one die. Sure, it's a cult. Always has been. No godly deliverance, just bondage. Whatever,
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Steve Lortz
No, johnian, let's not just let this one die... if we are going to take responsibility for our beliefs and actions... which is the only way to become truly free... then we have to be rigorously honest about the decisions we've made, and why we made them.
Was it wrong for me to be involved in TWI. That depends on the knowledge I had of the organization. When I thought that Wierwille's on-stage personna of the elderly Bible teacher was genuine, I had no problems promoting the benefits I thought I was receiving from PFAL. And I HAD received benefits... it's just that I had been deceived into thinking those benefits came from PFAL, and not from the Lord Jesus Christ. But when I realized that Wierwille was actually a predator using the truths he preached in PFAL to disguise the errors he was teaching and to take all sorts of advantages of well-meaning people, I knew that promoting TWI was very, very wrong. Not only that, but I realized I had to spend at least as much energy de-promoting TWI as I had spent promoting it.
You wrote, "No godly deliverance, just bondage. Whatever," Why do you classify abortion, taking human lives, as "whatever", johniam? Why? I suggest that you will never be able to free yourself from the deceptive heartlessness promoted by Wierwille until you come to some prayerful consideration of that question...
Love,
Steve
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skyrider
Very well said.
:eusa_clap:
After years of ignoring red flags in twi, I realized that the source of deception was wierwille.
He was the one who orchestrated this manipulation, deception and exploitation on the followers
.......and TAUGHT the corps to do likewise. The masquerading of "The Way" was calculated and
conniving from one who was deceiving himself and others.
The OTHER SIDE of wierwille and twi is now, for all to see, an open forum.
GS draws back the curtain to show you oz-man.
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shiftthis
the same thing happened to Paul in the first century church. Most of the believers left his ministry and lots of them turned against Paul. History repeating itself. With the quality of leadership on the field now there may come a day when the corps isnt needed.
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shiftthis
I could care a less about some personality. All I care about is GODS WORD in my life and the joy, excitment , and adventure GOD brings. I never cared about presentations either. The reason I go to way fellowships is the hear the WORD, and teach others the stuff I learn at home. I could care a less about how big or how small the way is. I went wow 2 times and way disciple once. it was some of the best time in my life. maybe it has to do with my ever wanting to learn and know and help others attitude. I strive to be the best electrician and drummer I can be. ever since about the the 6th grade i have had this attitude or whatever its called. that was 1969. in 1980 i was praying to GOD for people to teach me the truth about HIM. unknown to me at the time GOD directed my path to them. there were some bad people in the way and they hurt people. my dad was a violent drunk and tried to kill me twice. i have a scar on my forehead he gave me when i was about 5yo. in the 70's my younger brother broke into a gas station i managed and stole a lot of stuff and got caught. i got fired and didnt get my last paycheck because of him. i know what its like to be hurt but i never saw or knew anyone in the way to have the hell beat out of them like my dad did to me when i was growing up. i had to leave and go live with my grandmother when i was 16. i know a lot of people that are corp grads all the way back to the 11th corps that say it was one of the best times in there life. the way isnt fo everybody and neither is GODS WORD. playing drums in a touring rock n roll band isnt for everybody and thats why i dont tour.
HAY ! I'm from missippi ! there are several of those independent groups around that teach the accuracy of GODS WORD. a good friend and exway believer was just ordained by one of them. i went to his ordination and told his congregation what a great man of GOD he is. the WORD of GOD is HIS WORD no matter who teaches it.
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shiftthis
wheres your proof ! i never saw any such thing. i was in the way in jackson mississippi in 1980-1981 in a fellowship run by 2 beautiful women in their mid 20's , i was wow in clinton iowa 1981-1982 with another guy and 2 beautiful women , i went back to jackson in 1982-1983 and lived with a corps family , i was wow 1983-1984 in cheyanne wyoming with 2 guys , in 1984-1985 i was in virginia beach in a young corps womans fellowship , in 1985-1986 i was in atlanta in a corp guys fellowship , in 1986-1987 i was in houston in a corp families fellopwship , in 1987 i was in west hollywood in Dennis D. fellowship and lived in several places in los angeles , in 2003-2004 i was way disciple in hoover alabama , in 2004 i went back to los angeles and have ben in about 7 different fellowships in los angeles and over all those years did and do lots of witnessing with all kinds of different people and no one ever used sex or attraction or coercion or anything else to sign people up for the class. all we ever did and do is speak the WORD to people. this thing about using sex to sign people up for the class is a lie from whoever started it. i dont care if you want to bad mouth the ministry or air your anger at some leader that did you wrong like was done to me but i will not be silent about outright lies.
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waysider
You can continue to disbelieve it if you choose. No one can force you to accept that it's true. Fact is, though, "date and switch" was actually quite commonplace, especially whenever and wherever there were quotas to be met. (It wasn't called "date and switch" at the time.) You need not look any farther than the pages of GSC to find firsthand testimony to that effect. I, myself, am a product of it. You say you never personally witnessed it being used. I have no reason to disbelieve your experience.
One thing you should take into consideration is that you only saw a very small part of what took place. Yes, I understand that three *tours of duty*, so to speak, may seem like a lot, but it only represents a tiny fraction of what went on.
In regard to the physical violence you experienced, I'm sorry you were treated that way . No one deserves to have that happen to them. Again, I understand you never personally saw it, but there was plenty of physical violence, along with psychological abuse in The Way. In fact, there are even documented cases of murder (yes, murder) that happened on the W.O.W. field. Additionally, there was a lot of domestic violence, child abuse and sexual abuse that, although not directly sanctioned by The Way, was an indirect product of some of the distorted doctrines and lifestyle promoted by the organization. Wierwille , himself, is known to have drugged and then raped many young women at HQ and other locations. Some have come forth to give their testimony here. One has even written a book that you can read about on the front page of this site.
You may not realize it, but VPW had thug-like bodyguards to insure his safety. One top leader even kept a gun in the teaching podium at HQ in case trouble should erupt during Sunday Night Service. You can read about these things on the front page of this site, also, from firsthand witnesses.
Like yourself, many people are overwhelmed, flabbergasted to learn of these things for the first time. Much of it has been swept under the rug for a very long time. It's a lot to take in all at once. The purpose of GSC is to expose these ugly truths to the light of day for all to see.
Click HERE for "Through The Fog".
Click HERE for "Losing The Way".
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Steve Lortz
I felt like responding to shiftthis, waysider, but you did a much better job than I would have! Thanks!
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
The same thing? There were allegations of sexual impropriety (okay, rape) against Paul? Gosh, I didn't know that!
Yes, can see why "most of the believers" would leave his ministry, and turn against him. They were wise ... if that were the case.
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Rocky
An important reflection, Twinky.
I suspect that current twi "innies" use the irrational rationale as explained by shiftthis because it's been offered as an
effective shiny object to distract followers away from having to assess wierwille's depravity.
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shiftthis
i have never talked to anyone in the way about what i posted about people turning away from Paul. I got what i posted from the Bible. the only thing i ever talked to anyone about was LCM and the 2 women he was banging and that was a long time ago. whatever may or may not have happened was long ago. the way of today is not the same ministry as it was when LCM was the pres. LCM turned into a major a hole. the way of today is so different from when it was in 1980 when i went to fellowship. but one things for sure , the believers i was around then and am around now are good people. if anyone had ever gotten violent and i was there i would have stopped it and called the cops. if i had know of anyone using sex to get a green card signed i would have spoken up. i never heard of a green card quota either. the 1st year i was wow we ran 1 class. the 2nd year we did not run a class. we ran one class on the way disciple field. all the people that signed up did it freely. are there guys that signed the card because a woman witnessed to them ? imo yes ! why ? if you cant figure that one out theres no hope for ya ! lol !
VP had armed body gaurds. yes i know. i was in a restroom at a way event in mississippi and a few armed body guards came in and looked around and then VP came in. members of congress have armed body guards. i was at a burger joint in hollywood and several armed men came in and looked around and then a small bald guy came in and ate. lots of movie stars here in los angeles have armed body guards. i know a few big time musicians that carry a heater. nothing wrong with that. around 1980 or 81 we were witnessing at a shopping center in south jackson mississippi. one of the believers was a black. some guys in a pickup truck were riding around in the parking lot yelling racial stuff at us. they pulled out onto McDowell rd and the guy on the passenger side pointed a gun at us. a different black guy had all 4 of his tires slashed during fellowship one night. a branch coordinator was shot at and had bullet holes in his car. someone switched the wires on the ignition coil on one of the women that ran a fellowship. she called me and when the coil wasnt firing i checked the wiring. there was other stuff done to. so i can see why VP had a gun close buy.when i travel across he country i carry 2 .45's , 6 loaded mags and 50 extra rounds just in case of dia. i call it my travel kit. well , what do you expect , i'm from south mississippi. lol !
no , i'm not an innie.
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Allan
Okaaayyyy....no violence in todays twi ? are you freakn serious ??!! I have 'relatives' still in who like to resort to violence and threats of violence...no sexual impropriety in todays twi ? again are you freakn serious ??!! I know people who are in leadership positions in twi TODAY who have been men whores on a regular basis...and yes I have 2, 3 more witnesses to this....wake the f up and smell the f'n coffee dwaynebrain
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Rocky
Only two?
What makes you think you're the only one who has said or even thought any of that?
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